VW Diesel - Big BIG ass scandal

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 03, 2015 4:46 AM GMT


    Thoughts?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 03, 2015 9:47 PM GMT
    VW diesel owners are kinda screwed. Retrofit will likely end up in lousy performance and fuel economy. The resale value will plummet. VW should just buy back those cars. It will probably be cheaper for them in the long run.

  • Apparition

    Posts: 3525

    Oct 04, 2015 11:54 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said

    Thoughts?



    There should be BANS of the companies that CHEAT blatantly and get caught.
    Fines and things dont work.

    Have them SIT OUT a couple years of business. At the very least, the board and the top figures should be in jail as TERRORISTS. Nothing else will make these guys stop. If you take your golden parachute as punishment and then go to the next board, you were not punished, you were REWARDED. The shit has to not run downhill, but UPHILL.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4864

    Oct 05, 2015 7:05 AM GMT
    Apparition said
    freedomisntfree said

    Thoughts?



    There should be BANS of the companies that CHEAT blatantly and get caught.
    Fines and things dont work.

    Have them SIT OUT a couple years of business. At the very least, the board and the top figures should be in jail as TERRORISTS. Nothing else will make these guys stop. If you take your golden parachute as punishment and then go to the next board, you were not punished, you were REWARDED. The shit has to not run downhill, but UPHILL.


    The problem with your solution is that it would hurt employees who had nothing to do with the problem.

    Having worked for large companies, I can see how that scandal could have occurred. Often lower level employees hide unpleasant information from company executives out of fear that they will be blamed for the problem and either fired or lose out on a promotion. I have seen it happen. It can be worse. The Fukushima nuclear disaster occurred because lower level employees knew that the emergency Diesel generators were being located below the level of the highest historical tsunami but were afraid to tell upper level management; they just hoped for the best.

    In the case of VW, they hid the emissions problem from management by tweaking the engine management software to reduce NOx levels when the cars were being tested for emissions but not during normal operation. If the emissions testing had been done while the cars were being driven normally, the excessive emissions would have been discovered. However, emissions testing is generally done with the car not being driven.
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    Oct 05, 2015 10:37 PM GMT
    http://www.autonews.com/article/20151003/OEM/151009930/vws-new-chairman-emissions-crisis-a-threat-to-our-existence
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    Oct 05, 2015 11:49 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    Apparition said
    freedomisntfree said

    Thoughts?



    There should be BANS of the companies that CHEAT blatantly and get caught.
    Fines and things dont work.

    Have them SIT OUT a couple years of business. At the very least, the board and the top figures should be in jail as TERRORISTS. Nothing else will make these guys stop. If you take your golden parachute as punishment and then go to the next board, you were not punished, you were REWARDED. The shit has to not run downhill, but UPHILL.


    The problem with your solution is that it would hurt employees who had nothing to do with the problem.

    Having worked for large companies, I can see how that scandal could have occurred. Often lower level employees hide unpleasant information from company executives out of fear that they will be blamed for the problem and either fired or lose out on a promotion. I have seen it happen. It can be worse. The Fukushima nuclear disaster occurred because lower level employees knew that the emergency Diesel generators were being located below the level of the highest historical tsunami but were afraid to tell upper level management; they just hoped for the best.

    In the case of VW, they hid the emissions problem from management by tweaking the engine management software to reduce NOx levels when the cars were being tested for emissions but not during normal operation. If the emissions testing had been done while the cars were being driven normally, the excessive emissions would have been discovered. However, emissions testing is generally done with the car not being driven.


    I find it hard to believe that cheating software was created and installed without senior executives knowing. That's a bit different than just not being told about the location of some generators. The VW scandal goes WAY beyond withholding information. It was cheating on purpose, not just 'forgetting' to mention something important. There an investigation about who knew what when. If you're that ignorant about the running of your product as the executives in charge it borders on criminally negligent.
  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Oct 06, 2015 12:11 AM GMT
    Though I don't condone the original deception, I"m still baffled that VW didnt' just recall the cars and re-chip them when the very early reports of emissions failure were reported.

    If they hadn't admitted the software contained the "cheat" code it would have been virtually impossible for anybody not associated with the writing of that particluar line of code to find it. It's proprietary and would be buried with so much other data.

    It would have been so easy to cover up, and sweep up, and the recall would have made all the owners feel they were being taken care of pre-emptively. Most consumers aren't perceptive enough to notice the kind of performance reduction resulting from compliance anyway.

    I think VW panicked, they needed a CEO with bigger balls. they could have easily pulled this back onto the road, instead they floored it and rolled it 4x.
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    Oct 06, 2015 11:45 AM GMT
    I own one of the cars involved in this. I am torn...it is a GREAT car, runs like a champ! Im my experience, if something is "fixed" after-the-fact....the vehicle integrity and dependability always takes a hit. If it is left alone, it is a bigger polluter....and I bought it because I thought it was a green option. I have seen a few ads for a class action lawsuit, but I am really not sure what to do, or if I do anything. I hate that I was deceived, but not sure that I care that this is exceeding California emissions...I live in OHIO....
    I agree that this was badly handled by the company. They panicked and tripped over their own dick on this one....They could have re-chipped and come out as a hero instead of a villain.icon_rolleyes.gif
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Oct 06, 2015 1:53 PM GMT
    thadjock saidThough I don't condone the original deception, I"m still baffled that VW didnt' just recall the cars and re-chip them when the very early reports of emissions failure were reported.

    If they hadn't admitted the software contained the "cheat" code it would have been virtually impossible for anybody not associated with the writing of that particluar line of code to find it. It's proprietary and would be buried with so much other data.

    It would have been so easy to cover up, and sweep up, and the recall would have made all the owners feel they were being taken care of pre-emptively. Most consumers aren't perceptive enough to notice the kind of performance reduction resulting from compliance anyway.

    I think VW panicked, they needed a CEO with bigger balls. they could have easily pulled this back onto the road, instead they floored it and rolled it 4x.


    lol it's not the programming of the chip that's emitting the 40x amount of NOx allowed, it's the engine
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    Oct 06, 2015 2:34 PM GMT
    Sporty_G saidI own one of the cars involved in this. I am torn...it is a GREAT car, runs like a champ! Im my experience, if something is "fixed" after-the-fact....the vehicle integrity and dependability always takes a hit. If it is left alone, it is a bigger polluter....and I bought it because I thought it was a green option. I have seen a few ads for a class action lawsuit, but I am really not sure what to do, or if I do anything. I hate that I was deceived, but not sure that I care that this is exceeding California emissions...I live in OHIO....
    I agree that this was badly handled by the company. They panicked and tripped over their own dick on this one....They could have re-chipped and come out as a hero instead of a villain.icon_rolleyes.gif


    It's far exceeding 50 state standards, not just Cali. Diesels are inheritably quite dirty, and also why just about everyone else is using urea injection. So it's not something that can be fixed by programming without some real expensive hardware to retain some level of performance and drivability
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Oct 06, 2015 2:53 PM GMT
    ^^

    It's the engine trade-offs that VW screwed up. Any heat engine achieves higher efficiency the hotter it burns (Thermo 101), unfortunately, the hotter the heat engine runs, the more NOx it generates

    so VW got great efficiency, but it pollutes like mad - so they rigged the chip to cover it up

    it was blatant and deliberate (and a lot of people had to know about it (rgardless of what the PR Dept says)
  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Oct 06, 2015 6:00 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    It's far exceeding 50 state standards, not just Cali. Diesels are inheritably quite dirty, and also why just about everyone else is using urea injection. So it's not something that can be fixed by programming without some real expensive hardware to retain some level of performance and drivability


    some of the fixes that are being proposed:

    the larger 2L engines already have a DEF tank (urea) and would only need re-chipping without any performance loss, though it would consume more fluid which isn't cheap.

    the smaller 1.8L engines would require larger catalytic converters installed and re-chipped.

    it's also been suggested that VW might buy back some of the cars in regions where meeting emissions limits isn't cost effective

    at least it's not a faulty airbag, ignition switch, tires or unintended acceleration that would kill you. diesel smog takes a lot longer.







  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Oct 06, 2015 6:15 PM GMT
    Sporty_G saidI own one of the cars involved in this. I am torn...it is a GREAT car, runs like a champ! Im my experience, if something is "fixed" after-the-fact....the vehicle integrity and dependability always takes a hit. If it is left alone, it is a bigger polluter....and I bought it because I thought it was a green option. I have seen a few ads for a class action lawsuit, but I am really not sure what to do, or if I do anything. I hate that I was deceived, but not sure that I care that this is exceeding California emissions...I live in OHIO....
    I agree that this was badly handled by the company. They panicked and tripped over their own dick on this one....They could have re-chipped and come out as a hero instead of a villain.icon_rolleyes.gif


    I completely understand your perspective, if I lived in an area that didn't have emissions testing I would probably say "fuck it" and just keep driving it the way it is. Does the federal recall force you to do anything ? I'd be skeptical of the "fix" too. But the only reason they used code as an end run around emissions is money. It's not because the technology or engineering doesn't exist, it's just because they wanted to market the car at a certain price point.
    in the grand scheme of things the extra pollution your car emits is nothing.
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    Oct 06, 2015 8:12 PM GMT
    thadjock said
    Sporty_G saidI own one of the cars involved in this. I am torn...it is a GREAT car, runs like a champ! Im my experience, if something is "fixed" after-the-fact....the vehicle integrity and dependability always takes a hit. If it is left alone, it is a bigger polluter....and I bought it because I thought it was a green option. I have seen a few ads for a class action lawsuit, but I am really not sure what to do, or if I do anything. I hate that I was deceived, but not sure that I care that this is exceeding California emissions...I live in OHIO....
    I agree that this was badly handled by the company. They panicked and tripped over their own dick on this one....They could have re-chipped and come out as a hero instead of a villain.icon_rolleyes.gif


    I completely understand your perspective, if I lived in an area that didn't have emissions testing I would probably say "fuck it" and just keep driving it the way it is. Does the federal recall force you to do anything ? I'd be skeptical of the "fix" too. But the only reason they used code as an end run around emissions is money. It's not because the technology or engineering doesn't exist, it's just because they wanted to market the car at a certain price point.
    in the grand scheme of things the extra pollution your car emits is nothing.

    I have a 2009 Jetta TDI. Love it. I believed the claim that it spewed less CO2 than the same regular gas engine (that part's still true since it's the Nitrous Oxide that was the offending compound). I love the low end torque and the great mileage. I've gone on a 10-hour trip without refueling. And I enjoy that Georgia doesn't require emissions testing for these diesels. This was my second VW in a row and I was happy with the brand. But this fucked up any confidence I had with them at this point. Hoping they'll do me right but I'm afraid it may be a while. icon_sad.gif
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4864

    Oct 06, 2015 8:45 PM GMT
    Wyndahoi said
    FRE0 said
    Apparition said
    freedomisntfree said

    Thoughts?



    There should be BANS of the companies that CHEAT blatantly and get caught.
    Fines and things dont work.

    Have them SIT OUT a couple years of business. At the very least, the board and the top figures should be in jail as TERRORISTS. Nothing else will make these guys stop. If you take your golden parachute as punishment and then go to the next board, you were not punished, you were REWARDED. The shit has to not run downhill, but UPHILL.


    The problem with your solution is that it would hurt employees who had nothing to do with the problem.

    Having worked for large companies, I can see how that scandal could have occurred. Often lower level employees hide unpleasant information from company executives out of fear that they will be blamed for the problem and either fired or lose out on a promotion. I have seen it happen. It can be worse. The Fukushima nuclear disaster occurred because lower level employees knew that the emergency Diesel generators were being located below the level of the highest historical tsunami but were afraid to tell upper level management; they just hoped for the best.

    In the case of VW, they hid the emissions problem from management by tweaking the engine management software to reduce NOx levels when the cars were being tested for emissions but not during normal operation. If the emissions testing had been done while the cars were being driven normally, the excessive emissions would have been discovered. However, emissions testing is generally done with the car not being driven.


    I find it hard to believe that cheating software was created and installed without senior executives knowing. That's a bit different than just not being told about the location of some generators. The VW scandal goes WAY beyond withholding information. It was cheating on purpose, not just 'forgetting' to mention something important. There an investigation about who knew what when. If you're that ignorant about the running of your product as the executives in charge it borders on criminally negligent.


    Yes, it was most definitely cheating on purpose. However, many of us who have worked for large companies are well aware that high level management often does not know what is going on, including cheating on purpose; it is not unusual.

    Higher level management operates by delegation and by establishing policies. To a considerable degree, they are isolated from much of what happens in the company. There is much that occurs without their knowledge. They would be incapable of knowing everything that happens. How could they know unless someone tells them? Would you expect them to examine every line of code in the computerized engine management system?

    Perhaps VW's incentives for lower level management and employees do not provide sufficient motive to alert higher level management of serious problems. It may be that upward communication at VW is inadequate; it may even be discouraged or unduly difficult. It may be that better and clearer company policies would have prevented the problem.

    A large fine would still be appropriate because it would alert personnel at all levels of the seriousness of cheating or doing anything unethical. Probably it would alert upper level management of the need to improve upward communication so that they would learn about problems.

    Regarding you comment on what I wrote about the Fukushima disaster, you have asserted that I said something that I never intended. What I meant was that the upper management was never told how high previous tsunamis reached.
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    Oct 07, 2015 1:01 AM GMT
    I tried a diesel in 1982, in a new Buick Park Avenue barge I ordered. On the same chassis as a Cadillac and just as large, inside & out. But as an Army Officer I thought it would be unseemly for me to have that Cadillac badge on my car.

    My Father's gift to me, BTW. He was horrified when he learned I had bought a much smaller Buick on GMAC credit the year before, being broke after my first divorce, my wife cleaning me out. So he had my GMAC loan erased (an interesting story in itself), and got me the Park Avenue.

    The GM V-8 diesel had a poor reputation, but mine was fine. I got about 32 mpg on the highway, outstanding for a huge car of its size. And it was quiet and smooth inside. One time I drove all the way down from our home near NYC, taking the scenic Blue Ridge Parkway through Virginia, and making it into Alabama before I needed to fill the tank.

    I could be happy with a diesel again, if it doesn't have pollution issues.
  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Oct 07, 2015 2:24 AM GMT
    1969er said
    This was my second VW in a row and I was happy with the brand. But this fucked up any confidence I had with them at this point. Hoping they'll do me right but I'm afraid it may be a while. icon_sad.gif


    I"m curious from an owner's point of view , what does "do me right" mean for you?

    I heard one of the big class action lawyers talking about making owners "whole" and his definition of whole was VW offering to buy back all the cars at the full purchase price when new. I think he's aiming high knowing they'll never do that, and hoping for either cash settlements, or a retrofit that makes the car meet emission standards.

    If they offered you a cash settlement how much would it take?
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    Oct 07, 2015 5:00 AM GMT
    I don't understand the appeal of diesel. It makes more sense in Europe, where gasoline is expensive. But here in the states, gasoline cars are much more fuel efficient and cleaner these days.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4864

    Oct 07, 2015 7:37 AM GMT
    xrichx saidI don't understand the appeal of diesel. It makes more sense in Europe, where gasoline is expensive. But here in the states, gasoline cars are much more fuel efficient and cleaner these days.


    With direct fuel injection and other techniques to improve fuel efficiency of gasoline engines, the difference in fuel efficiency between a gasoline car and a Diesel car is very small. Not all of the difference in fuel mileage can be correctly attributed to differences in efficiency since Diesel fuel actually contains more energy per unit than gasoline.
  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Oct 07, 2015 8:54 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    With direct fuel injection and other techniques to improve fuel efficiency of gasoline engines, the difference in fuel efficiency between a gasoline car and a Diesel car is very small. Not all of the difference in fuel mileage can be correctly attributed to differences in efficiency since Diesel fuel actually contains more energy per unit than gasoline.


    also diesel engines will run alot higher mileage b4 overhaul than gas
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4864

    Oct 07, 2015 10:41 PM GMT
    thadjock said
    FRE0 said
    With direct fuel injection and other techniques to improve fuel efficiency of gasoline engines, the difference in fuel efficiency between a gasoline car and a Diesel car is very small. Not all of the difference in fuel mileage can be correctly attributed to differences in efficiency since Diesel fuel actually contains more energy per unit than gasoline.


    also diesel engines will run alot higher mileage b4 overhaul than gas


    True. That seems to be partly because Diesel fuel, unlike gasoline, is a lubricant. Also, Diesel engine exhaust is generally cooler than gasoline engine exhaust and that is easier on the valves. It doesn't hurt that Diesel engines are usually built stronger.
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    Oct 08, 2015 5:37 PM GMT
    Thoughts?

    I watched a documentary about the Enron scandal last night and it makes the VW scandal look like very small fry. Among other things, Enron Energy Services conspired with various power companies to black out parts of California in order send the price of electricity soaring. The whole corporation (once at the sixth position on the Fortune Global 500) was basically one huge fraud, with the full knowledge, participation and encouragement of the CEO and Chairman and most of the senior management.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4864

    Oct 08, 2015 5:57 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidThoughts?

    I watched a documentary about the Enron scandal last night and it makes the VW scandal look like very small fry. Among other things, Enron Energy Services conspired with various power companies to black out parts of California in order send the price of electricity soaring. The whole corporation (once at the sixth position on the Fortune Global 500) was basically one huge fraud, with the full knowledge, participation and encouragement of the CEO and Chairman and most of the senior management.


    Operating the grid is so complicated that it is just about impossible for outsiders to know exactly what is happening. Enron et al probably though that they would never be exposed because of the difficulty in figuring out what actually happened.

    When there are no controls, it is common for companies to behave very badly. The reason most companies behave reasonably well is that they fear the consequences of misbehaving. Even exposure with no legal sanctions helps to control behavior because they know that a bad reputation can affect sales or cause governments to enact restrictive legislation.
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    Oct 08, 2015 6:08 PM GMT
    I wish the automakers well in coming up w/ a truly efficient and clean Diesel, but we're not there yet. In part, this is due to the exemptions Congressman John Dingell (D-MI) carved out for Diesels starting in the '60s and continuing into the '90s. Without the same rigorous requirements applied to gas engines, Diesel technology wasn't pushed as far as it could have been, which would have put us in a much better position today. As a bicyclist, I have a particular aversion to unclean Diesels, because the minute matter their exhaust produces easily lodges in cyclists' lungs and is a known carcinogen. I agree w/ the buyback proposal: the product sold was not as represented and fraud was used in the selling. AGs around the country are going to have a field day w/ this one. Let's just hope the money they rake in goes to worthy causes.
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    Oct 08, 2015 6:15 PM GMT
    FRE0 said
    When there are no controls, it is common for companies to behave very badly. The reason most companies behave reasonably well is that they fear the consequences of misbehaving. Even exposure with no legal sanctions helps to control behavior because they know that a bad reputation can affect sales or cause governments to enact restrictive legislation.


    Exactly. When you hear about this sort of thing, never do Reagan's words ring so hollow (or true, if you're an Enron or a VW): “Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”