Interesting perspective from a gay black man on black gay love. Check out the video at 53:40 when the black guy starts talking.

  • MadeinMich

    Posts: 1624

    Oct 18, 2015 10:18 PM GMT
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    Oct 19, 2015 12:21 AM GMT
    theantijock%20engage%20stalker%20reducti

    I just listened to a few moments so perhaps this was addressed; I don't know.

    @54:45 "...black men attempting to love black men...is such a precarious action...because you're attempting to love a reflection of yourself, a reflection you've been taught to hate....that's very different than...white(s) trying to love each other without loving through racism..."

    There might be something to that but I'm not sure if it's entirely true because what I think is more true is that maybe the black experience is a bit more concentrated with the addition of racism, that the paler though more diluted still very much drinks from the same poisoned well. Gay whites still have instilled in them homophobia all their own, even growing up in the age of it gets better: we still deal with those messages that we are less than and then we have to find a way to love that (or love around that) in another man.

    Some things run counterintuitive. It adds color to life. Born a lucid dreamer as I've often noted, as a child I used to have conversations with dream characters of my people in real life. But when I was very young, my dreaming was so conscious and my training in the art of dreaming so non existent that I didn't know the difference between dreaming and being awake.

    So people I know would tell me things that they'd later deny having occurred. Yet, a young child growing up and they were my whole world, I had to find a way to love those I didn't quite trust. Their words didn't match their words. And I didn't figure out until much later in life that the discrepancy in my memories was but a dream. It isn't that they lied to me, but that the dream characters of them didn't always coincide with who they are in waking life. So during that, I learned to love those I did not trust which is the same sort of counterintuitive mechanism at play here.

    That a black man might love that which he might hate. That a white man might be attracted to that which he's been told in so many ways--not allowed to adopt, not allowed to marry, no civil rights protections, stonings for God's sakes even if not in this country--that being gay is inferior, that what a surprise that gay men might develop a fetish for str8 men. So I'd not present this as a problem exclusive to black community. Life tends to be fair in that sense: it fucks with all of us.

    So maybe I'd have better said "I'm not sure if it's entirely true" by saying that I think it is a bigger truth than how narrowly it may have been presented.

    That these are just some of the colors inside the colors of the rainbow. Curiously, it is out of these conflicts and efforts of resolution that so much diversity develops.
  • mcbrion

    Posts: 305

    Oct 19, 2015 1:08 PM GMT
    Both your reality and the Black brother's are true. I think, though, that a certain premise has to be in place first.
    If you are Black, you have to have realized you were 'less than', from an early age.
    If you are gay, you have to have gone thru the shame/internalized homophobia dialogue in your head when you realized you were gay.

    I announced to my parents that I was "homosexual" when I was 12. It was 1963.

    I discovered I was "Black" when we moved to suburbia and I went to school in 9th grade. It was 1965.

    My parents never made the slightest fuss about my statement, except my dad took me for a walk the next day and said I wasn't homosexual, because "homosexuals didn't like girls." I remember thinking, "How can they be so wrong AGAIN?... sigh." And then I stayed homosexual, having sex with guys, reading those male nude "art" magazine and buying them and then, at 16, my mother found my stash of magazines of naked men under my mattress….and showed them to me, but just looked at me, as though she had found my Playboy stash. No recrimination. And no followup visit by my father later that day, either. In fact, not the next day, or the day after or EVER.
    Now, finding out I was Black AFTER I already knew I was gay? That was more the shock, that others thought I was "less than…" because of what they'd been taught. I thought they were ignorant in the same way I would have thought a person ignorant to think people with Blond hair were the best-looking people in the world.
    With neither premise having been presented to me when I was young, by self-determining I was gay at 12, in 1963, and having no problem with that, with looking at the White kids who would tell me I was "different" than other Black kids, and me strongly countering that with "you know 3 black people: I know about 500. Don't tell me that I'm different than my friends and family, because I have the knowledge. You have nothing except hearsay," I missed most, if not all, of the psychic explosions of shame and self-hatred. (I mean, there must be SOMEthing in there, but I haven't seen it affect me often.)

    So, much of what we end up with, mental health-wise, is a result of messages planted in our heads before - as they say in South Pacific (the musical) - "you've got to be taught to hate, before you are 6 or 7 or 8." I didn't have that. My parents never discussed "race" (hate that word: it's a sociological construct) and it wouldn't have made sense, since my Uncle Charlie's eyes were the same color as Paul Newman's and cousin Lois had blond hair and cousin Yvonne was so pale, we told her she should be on Dark Shadows and stand next to Barnabas Collins so he'd look like he had a tan. Get the picture? My mother's side was White and Chickahominy Indian, so I saw White skin every summer when we spent a mont in virginia.
    It all comes before the individual's consciousness is developed enough that he decides what beliefs to accept and which to reject. But if you're hearing this stuff at 2 or 3 or 4 or 5, then yes, patriarchy and homophobia will have you twisted by the time you're 10.
    White men subscribe to the patriarchal society: Black culture is matriarchal. Hence the clash and hence the confusion and self hate.
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    Oct 19, 2015 3:49 PM GMT
    ^good post. Brings a few things to mind...

    Is the black experience matriarchal in America or is it by the Black American history of families torn apart earlier by slavery, or of later kept together by a strong mother or single parenting, that the black family has been often headed by the matriarch of that family so you've the immediate influence of that while your overall experience really is that of patriarchal America because even your mothers are subject to the hegemony of that larger culture along with the rest of us.

    And even now with all the single parenting going on, surely the whites have caught up to you somewhat on that. I kid and haven't checked stats but I'd not be surprised if that wasn't at least close to true, certainly not by percentage but maybe by number. Looking that up real quick now it looks like unmarried births 70% (wow-I didn't know) black children in single parent families and 54% Hispanic and 36% white. But by number, factor in that blacks are 13% of population, Hispanic 17% and whites are 62%. So by numbers (not percentages) figured quickly you'd have about twice as many whites born to single parent families than black kids. Would we call them raised in matriarchy?

    And while I appreciate your acknowledgement--I get where you're coming from--that you didn't discover you were black until later in life, realize that awareness comes in varying degrees of even things we know to be absolutely true. Not only do we sometimes know what we suspect, what we think we know or do we know that we know, etc., but sometimes we can't believe what we know.

    Just like betrayals we suffer in life. That we know a person did a thing but we can't fucking believe it because the plot break runs counter the rest of our experience, the rest of what we know. Thus we can suffer trauma by that nonalignment of what we can't believe but what we absolutely know, as consciousness seeks to resolve that. Picture a soldier at war, maimed by friendly fire. He knows where the mortar round came from but just can't believe it because you know that your own side would not hurt you, yet they did.

    What of a child who loves an abusive parent. My first long-term guy, 10 years, a great guy, was badly abused by his parents and older brother yet he completely loved them. So that's the same thing. The same as my loving those I didn't trust or a gay man loving a society-labeled so-called inferior gay man or a black man loving a society-labeled black man. So outside of varying in degree, I don't see this issue as exclusive to any group, even by when the influence might begin. The world is already in place and we're dropped into that.

    Whether in dreaming or whether our bodies are awake, consciousness is not a constant with regard to how aware we are of even our own being. Sometimes consciousness awakens in our sleep and some people sleepwalk through their waking life. How often have you driven someplace but then not known how you got there?

    So I don't know that you can say for certain that you didn't know you were gay or black or whatever but rather when you acknowledged to yourself the difference and in that I don't know that you can say that you didn't hear and see all the negative aspects of culture placing you but that just as someone might not allow their sexuality into working consciousness that they aren't aware of until later in life, you maybe were in blissful denial which you rationalize as having been not yet made aware until circumstances later showed, or maybe you had strong enough a sense of self that the negativity didn't affect you as much as it might have another person, be that instilled by your accepting parents or installed in your genes or engendered you by the ethers.

    "Our life is always deeper than we know, is always more divine than it seems, and hence we are able to survive degradations and despairs which otherwise must engulf us." ~~William James 1842-1910
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    Oct 19, 2015 11:42 PM GMT
    mcbrion saidBoth your reality and the Black brother's are true. I think, though, that a certain premise has to be in place first.
    If you are Black, you have to have realized you were 'less than', from an early age.
    If you are gay, you have to have gone thru the shame/internalized homophobia dialogue in your head when you realized you were gay.

    I announced to my parents that I was "homosexual" when I was 12. It was 1963.

    I discovered I was "Black" when we moved to suburbia and I went to school in 9th grade. It was 1965.

    My parents never made the slightest fuss about my statement, except my dad took me for a walk the next day and said I wasn't homosexual, because "homosexuals didn't like girls." I remember thinking, "How can they be so wrong AGAIN?... sigh." And then I stayed homosexual, having sex with guys, reading those male nude "art" magazine and buying them and then, at 16, my mother found my stash of magazines of naked men under my mattress….and showed them to me, but just looked at me, as though she had found my Playboy stash. No recrimination. And no followup visit by my father later that day, either. In fact, not the next day, or the day after or EVER.
    Now, finding out I was Black AFTER I already knew I was gay? That was more the shock, that others thought I was "less than…" because of what they'd been taught. I thought they were ignorant in the same way I would have thought a person ignorant to think people with Blond hair were the best-looking people in the world.
    With neither premise having been presented to me when I was young, by self-determining I was gay at 12, in 1963, and having no problem with that, with looking at the White kids who would tell me I was "different" than other Black kids, and me strongly countering that with "you know 3 black people: I know about 500. Don't tell me that I'm different than my friends and family, because I have the knowledge. You have nothing except hearsay," I missed most, if not all, of the psychic explosions of shame and self-hatred. (I mean, there must be SOMEthing in there, but I haven't seen it affect me often.)

    So, much of what we end up with, mental health-wise, is a result of messages planted in our heads before - as they say in South Pacific (the musical) - "you've got to be taught to hate, before you are 6 or 7 or 8." I didn't have that. My parents never discussed "race" (hate that word: it's a sociological construct) and it wouldn't have made sense, since my Uncle Charlie's eyes were the same color as Paul Newman's and cousin Lois had blond hair and cousin Yvonne was so pale, we told her she should be on Dark Shadows and stand next to Barnabas Collins so he'd look like he had a tan. Get the picture? My mother's side was White and Chickahominy Indian, so I saw White skin every summer when we spent a mont in virginia.
    It all comes before the individual's consciousness is developed enough that he decides what beliefs to accept and which to reject. But if you're hearing this stuff at 2 or 3 or 4 or 5, then yes, patriarchy and homophobia will have you twisted by the time you're 10.
    White men subscribe to the patriarchal society: Black culture is matriarchal. Hence the clash and hence the confusion and self hate.


    Guys like you are why I use to gravitate towards older men. Dealing with a younger dudes self hate and fears of being judged as less is exhausting. You should post more often.
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    Oct 20, 2015 2:32 AM GMT
    I listened from 43:00 to about 1:01.

  • mcbrion

    Posts: 305

    Oct 21, 2015 5:51 AM GMT
    theantijock said^good post. Brings a few things to mind...

    Is the black experience matriarchal in America or is it by the Black American history of families torn apart earlier by slavery, or of later kept together by a strong mother or single parenting, that the black family has been often headed by the matriarch of that family so you've the immediate influence of that while your overall experience really is that of patriarchal America because even your mothers are subject to the hegemony of that larger culture along with the rest of us.

    <>

    And even now with all the single parenting going on, surely the whites have caught up to you somewhat on that. I kid and haven't checked stats but I'd not be surprised if that wasn't at least close to true, certainly not by percentage but maybe by number. Looking that up real quick now it looks like unmarried births 70% (wow-I didn't know) black children in single parent families and 54% Hispanic and 36% white. But by number, factor in that blacks are 13% of population, Hispanic 17% and whites are 62%. So by numbers (not percentages) figured quickly you'd have about twice as many whites born to single parent families than black kids. Would we call them raised in matriarchy?
    <mainly White in racial identification scale, going to school and shooting up their classmates. DEFINITELY not modeled on matriarchal values. And the majority of the shooters are young and White at schools. I can't recall a Black shooting in the last 3 years where a young Black child went to school and shot his classmates. So, no, not going to agree with your argument there.>>

    And while I appreciate your acknowledgement--I get where you're coming from--that you didn't discover you were black until later in life, realize that awareness comes in varying degrees of even things we know to be absolutely true. Not only do we sometimes know what we suspect, what we think we know or do we know that we know, etc., but sometimes we can't believe what we know.
    << No, I know that I just saw people, not any awareness of difference. I'd been seeing white skin since I was conscious (family), but there was no discussion of color among my mother and father, the most present influences in a child's life, so there could be no awareness without a traumatic incident. And I lived in New Haven, (50% Black or so), so I didn't even notice anything other than the personality of the teacher or White guardian or pharmacist. I am perfectly aware of when it hit me that I was 'other' and that was in my first weeks of junior high school. My father had one white couple he befriended and I would see them as Mr. Ward and Ms. Gladys and see their skin color, but it was not different than that of uncle Charlie (who looked Whiter than them!) and yet there was no hesitation or remembrance. If you want to say it was buried deep in my subconscious, be my guest, but with the number of light-skinned cousins I have, that's not a point to visit. "We" can know some things: I know when my brain was disturbed by something out of place, and that simply doesn't exist in any memory before 14. Lets just assume I was shielded from any sense of difference because my parents intended not to influence us, although my father did speak to my older brother of his association with Whites when he (my brother) was in high school and we'd moved to the burbs. I know this because my brother told me. My brother was 17, and at this point, my father was warning him of how to handle himself. My sister and I, though, compared notes extensively over the last 15 years: neither of us had the slightest dawning of differences in race.>>

    Just like betrayals we suffer in life. That we know a person did a thing but we can't fucking believe it because the plot break runs counter the rest of our experience, the rest of what we know. Thus we can suffer trauma by that nonalignment of what we can't believe but what we absolutely know, as consciousness seeks to resolve that. Picture a soldier at war, maimed by friendly fire. He knows where the mortar round came from but just can't believe it because you know that your own side would not hurt you, yet they did.

    What of a child who loves an abusive parent. My first long-term guy, 10 years, a great guy, was badly abused by his parents and older brother yet he completely loved them. So that's the same thing. The same as my loving those I didn't trust or a gay man loving a society-labeled so-called inferior gay man or a black man loving a society-labeled black man. So outside of varying in degree, I don't see this issue as exclusive to any group, even by when the influence might begin. The world is already in place and we're dropped into that.

    <>

    Whether in dreaming or whether our bodies are awake, consciousness is not a constant with regard to how aware we are of even our own being. Sometimes consciousness awakens in our sleep and some people sleepwalk through their waking life. How often have you driven someplace but then not known how you got there?

    So I don't know that you can say for certain that you didn't know you were gay or black or whatever but rather when you acknowledged to yourself the difference and in that I don't know that you can say that you didn't hear and see all the negative aspects of culture placing you but that just as someone might not allow their sexuality into working consciousness that they aren't aware of until later in life, you maybe were in blissful denial which you rationalize as having been not yet made aware until circumstances later showed, or maybe you had strong enough a sense of self that the negativity didn't affect you as much as it might have another person, be that instilled by your accepting parents or installed in your genes or engendered you by the ethers.

    "Our life is always deeper than we know, is always more divine than it seems, and hence we are able to survive degradations and despairs which otherwise must engulf us." ~~William James 1842-1910
  • mcbrion

    Posts: 305

    Oct 21, 2015 5:52 AM GMT
    theantijock said^good post. Brings a few things to mind...

    Is the black experience matriarchal in America or is it by the Black American history of families torn apart earlier by slavery, or of later kept together by a strong mother or single parenting, that the black family has been often headed by the matriarch of that family so you've the immediate influence of that while your overall experience really is that of patriarchal America because even your mothers are subject to the hegemony of that larger culture along with the rest of us.

    <>

    And even now with all the single parenting going on, surely the whites have caught up to you somewhat on that. I kid and haven't checked stats but I'd not be surprised if that wasn't at least close to true, certainly not by percentage but maybe by number. Looking that up real quick now it looks like unmarried births 70% (wow-I didn't know) black children in single parent families and 54% Hispanic and 36% white. But by number, factor in that blacks are 13% of population, Hispanic 17% and whites are 62%. So by numbers (not percentages) figured quickly you'd have about twice as many whites born to single parent families than black kids. Would we call them raised in matriarchy?
    <mainly White in racial identification scale, going to school and shooting up their classmates. DEFINITELY not modeled on matriarchal values. And the majority of the shooters are young and White at schools. I can't recall a Black shooting in the last 3 years where a young Black child went to school and shot his classmates. So, no, not going to agree with your argument there.>>

    And while I appreciate your acknowledgement--I get where you're coming from--that you didn't discover you were black until later in life, realize that awareness comes in varying degrees of even things we know to be absolutely true. Not only do we sometimes know what we suspect, what we think we know or do we know that we know, etc., but sometimes we can't believe what we know.
    << No, I know that I just saw people, not any awareness of difference. I'd been seeing white skin since I was conscious (family), but there was no discussion of color among my mother and father, the most present influences in a child's life, so there could be no awareness without a traumatic incident. And I lived in New Haven, (50% Black or so), so I didn't even notice anything other than the personality of the teacher or White guardian or pharmacist. I am perfectly aware of when it hit me that I was 'other' and that was in my first weeks of junior high school. My father had one white couple he befriended and I would see them as Mr. Ward and Ms. Gladys and see their skin color, but it was not different than that of uncle Charlie (who looked Whiter than them!) and yet there was no hesitation or remembrance. If you want to say it was buried deep in my subconscious, be my guest, but with the number of light-skinned cousins I have, that's not a point to visit. "We" can know some things: I know when my brain was disturbed by something out of place, and that simply doesn't exist in any memory before 14. Lets just assume I was shielded from any sense of difference because my parents intended not to influence us, although my father did speak to my older brother of his association with Whites when he (my brother) was in high school and we'd moved to the burbs. I know this because my brother told me. My brother was 17, and at this point, my father was warning him of how to handle himself. My sister and I, though, compared notes extensively over the last 15 years: neither of us had the slightest dawning of differences in race.>>

    Just like betrayals we suffer in life. That we know a person did a thing but we can't fucking believe it because the plot break runs counter the rest of our experience, the rest of what we know. Thus we can suffer trauma by that nonalignment of what we can't believe but what we absolutely know, as consciousness seeks to resolve that. Picture a soldier at war, maimed by friendly fire. He knows where the mortar round came from but just can't believe it because you know that your own side would not hurt you, yet they did.

    What of a child who loves an abusive parent. My first long-term guy, 10 years, a great guy, was badly abused by his parents and older brother yet he completely loved them. So that's the same thing. The same as my loving those I didn't trust or a gay man loving a society-labeled so-called inferior gay man or a black man loving a society-labeled black man. So outside of varying in degree, I don't see this issue as exclusive to any group, even by when the influence might begin. The world is already in place and we're dropped into that.

    <>

    Whether in dreaming or whether our bodies are awake, consciousness is not a constant with regard to how aware we are of even our own being. Sometimes consciousness awakens in our sleep and some people sleepwalk through their waking life. How often have you driven someplace but then not known how you got there?

    So I don't know that you can say for certain that you didn't know you were gay or black or whatever but rather when you acknowledged to yourself the difference and in that I don't know that you can say that you didn't hear and see all the negative aspects of culture placing you but that just as someone might not allow their sexuality into working consciousness that they aren't aware of until later in life, you maybe were in blissful denial which you rationalize as having been not yet made aware until circumstances later showed, or maybe you had strong enough a sense of self that the negativity didn't affect you as much as it might have another person, be that instilled by your accepting parents or installed in your genes or engendered you by the ethers.

    "Our life is always deeper than we know, is always more divine than it seems, and hence we are able to survive degradations and despairs which otherwise must engulf us." ~~William James 1842-1910
  • mcbrion

    Posts: 305

    Oct 21, 2015 5:53 AM GMT
    theantijock said^good post. Brings a few things to mind...

    Is the black experience matriarchal in America or is it by the Black American history of families torn apart earlier by slavery, or of later kept together by a strong mother or single parenting, that the black family has been often headed by the matriarch of that family so you've the immediate influence of that while your overall experience really is that of patriarchal America because even your mothers are subject to the hegemony of that larger culture along with the rest of us.



    Black culture is matriarchal in values. Read 'Before the Mayflower' for more information. An influence is not the same as a value. The cultural values of a matriarchal are closeness, fairness. The fact that i'm exposed to an overarching patriarchal society does not cause me to assimilate myself into it. I know of few Black mothers who became 'patriarchal' in their homes, so, unless you're Black, you'd need to research that for yourself.

    And even now with all the single parenting going on, surely the whites have caught up to you somewhat on that. I kid and haven't checked stats but I'd not be surprised if that wasn't at least close to true, certainly not by percentage but maybe by number. Looking that up real quick now it looks like unmarried births 70% (wow-I didn't know) black children in single parent families and 54% Hispanic and 36% white. But by number, factor in that blacks are 13% of population, Hispanic 17% and whites are 62%. So by numbers (not percentages) figured quickly you'd have about twice as many whites born to single parent families than black kids. Would we call them raised in matriarchy?



    Being raised in a matriarchal CULTURE requires having absorbed - at a VERY young age (1-4), matriarchal modeling (i.e., retrieving abilities, traits, and modeling behavior we see. If a child is brought up in a house modeling matriarchal values, then they could absorb those values. But that takes generations, not years, otherwise, the Women's Movement would have changed men greatly over the last 30 years. I don't see that evidence. Do you? What I see is a generation of young people, between the ages of 19-33, mainly White in racial identification scale, going to school and shooting up their classmates. DEFINITELY not modeled on matriarchal values. And the majority of the shooters are young and White at schools. I can't recall a Black shooting in the last 3 years where a young Black child went to school and shot his classmates. So, no, not going to agree with your argument there.>>

    And while I appreciate your acknowledgement--I get where you're coming from--that you didn't discover you were black until later in life, realize that awareness comes in varying degrees of even things we know to be absolutely true. Not only do we sometimes know what we suspect, what we think we know or do we know that we know, etc., but sometimes we can't believe what we know.


    No, I know that I just saw people, not any awareness of difference. I'd been seeing white skin since I was conscious (family), but there was no discussion of color among my mother and father, the most present influences in a child's life, so there could be no awareness without a traumatic incident. And I lived in New Haven, (50% Black or so), so I didn't even notice anything other than the personality of the teacher or White guardian or pharmacist. I am perfectly aware of when it hit me that I was 'other' and that was in my first weeks of junior high school. My father had one white couple he befriended and I would see them as Mr. Ward and Ms. Gladys and see their skin color, but it was not different than that of uncle Charlie (who looked Whiter than them!) and yet there was no hesitation or remembrance. If you want to say it was buried deep in my subconscious, be my guest, but with the number of light-skinned cousins I have, that's not a point to visit. "We" can know some things: I know when my brain was disturbed by something out of place, and that simply doesn't exist in any memory before 14. Lets just assume I was shielded from any sense of difference because my parents intended not to influence us, although my father did speak to my older brother of his association with Whites when he (my brother) was in high school and we'd moved to the burbs. I know this because my brother told me. My brother was 17, and at this point, my father was warning him of how to handle himself. My sister and I, though, compared notes extensively over the last 15 years: neither of us had the slightest dawning of differences in race.

    Just like betrayals we suffer in life. That we know a person did a thing but we can't fucking believe it because the plot break runs counter the rest of our experience, the rest of what we know. Thus we can suffer trauma by that nonalignment of what we can't believe but what we absolutely know, as consciousness seeks to resolve that. Picture a soldier at war, maimed by friendly fire. He knows where the mortar round came from but just can't believe it because you know that your own side would not hurt you, yet they did.

    What of a child who loves an abusive parent. My first long-term guy, 10 years, a great guy, was badly abused by his parents and older brother yet he completely loved them. So that's the same thing. The same as my loving those I didn't trust or a gay man loving a society-labeled so-called inferior gay man or a black man loving a society-labeled black man. So outside of varying in degree, I don't see this issue as exclusive to any group, even by when the influence might begin. The world is already in place and we're dropped into that.

    I'm not clear on how one loves what one does not trust. A dog whose master beats it every day does not usually love the master. And on that point, our concept of what "love" is is usually warped, so how would one be able to recognize what is truthfully "Love"? Patty Hearst identified with her captors and came to "love" them, but it was not genuine Love. Abusers frequently say love when they mean "need.'' Can you elaborate by example, please?

    Whether in dreaming or whether our bodies are awake, consciousness is not a constant with regard to how aware we are of even our own being. Sometimes consciousness awakens in our sleep and some people sleepwalk through their waking life. How often have you driven someplace but then not known how you got there?

    So I don't know that you can say for certain that you didn't know you were gay or black or whatever but rather when you acknowledged to yourself the difference and in that I don't know that you can say that you didn't hear and see all the negative aspects of culture placing you but that just as someone might not allow their sexuality into working consciousness that they aren't aware of until later in life, you maybe were in blissful denial which you rationalize as having been not yet made aware until circumstances later showed, or maybe you had strong enough a sense of self that the negativity didn't affect you as much as it might have another person, be that instilled by your accepting parents or installed in your genes or engendered you by the ethers.

    "Our life is always deeper than we know, is always more divine than it seems, and hence we are able to survive degradations and despairs which otherwise must engulf us." ~~William James 1842-1910
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    Oct 21, 2015 3:18 PM GMT
    mcbrion saidBlack culture is matriarchal in values. Read 'Before the Mayflower' for more information. An influence is not the same as a value. The cultural values of a matriarchal are closeness, fairness. The fact that i'm exposed to an overarching patriarchal society does not cause me to assimilate myself into it. I know of few Black mothers who became 'patriarchal' in their homes, so, unless you're Black, you'd need to research that for yourself.

    Being raised in a matriarchal CULTURE requires having absorbed - at a VERY young age (1-4), matriarchal modeling (i.e., retrieving abilities, traits, and modeling behavior we see. If a child is brought up in a house modeling matriarchal values, then they could absorb those values. But that takes generations, not years, otherwise, the Women's Movement would have changed men greatly over the last 30 years. I don't see that evidence. Do you? What I see is a generation of young people, between the ages of 19-33, mainly White in racial identification scale, going to school and shooting up their classmates. DEFINITELY not modeled on matriarchal values. And the majority of the shooters are young and White at schools. I can't recall a Black shooting in the last 3 years where a young Black child went to school and shot his classmates. So, no, not going to agree with your argument there.

    No, I know that I just saw people, not any awareness of difference. I'd been seeing white skin since I was conscious (family), but there was no discussion of color among my mother and father, the most present influences in a child's life, so there could be no awareness without a traumatic incident. And I lived in New Haven, (50% Black or so), so I didn't even notice anything other than the personality of the teacher or White guardian or pharmacist. I am perfectly aware of when it hit me that I was 'other' and that was in my first weeks of junior high school. My father had one white couple he befriended and I would see them as Mr. Ward and Ms. Gladys and see their skin color, but it was not different than that of uncle Charlie (who looked Whiter than them!) and yet there was no hesitation or remembrance. If you want to say it was buried deep in my subconscious, be my guest, but with the number of light-skinned cousins I have, that's not a point to visit. "We" can know some things: I know when my brain was disturbed by something out of place, and that simply doesn't exist in any memory before 14. Lets just assume I was shielded from any sense of difference because my parents intended not to influence us, although my father did speak to my older brother of his association with Whites when he (my brother) was in high school and we'd moved to the burbs. I know this because my brother told me. My brother was 17, and at this point, my father was warning him of how to handle himself. My sister and I, though, compared notes extensively over the last 15 years: neither of us had the slightest dawning of differences in race.

    I'm not clear on how one loves what one does not trust. A dog whose master beats it every day does not usually love the master. And on that point, our concept of what "love" is is usually warped, so how would one be able to recognize what is truthfully "Love"? Patty Hearst identified with her captors and came to "love" them, but it was not genuine Love. Abusers frequently say love when they mean "need.'' Can you elaborate by example, please?


    I'm not a student of Black American history & culture and while I'm aware of the strong role black woman play in their families (I knew the numbers high though I was surprised by how high are numbers of children now born into single women-headed black families), and while I get that families headed by woman can certainly by that be considered matriarchal, I also question whether that alone determines what is matriarchal when that in itself exists within the larger patriarchal society about which influences the mothers are not isolated from but, rather, either put down by or certainly in some ways confronted, as opposed to, say, to what degree of how patriarchal might have been white family structures raised by father knows best within an overall. patriarchal society reinforcing itself.

    And even what a person takes from society, from family--be that values or influence, however you want to describe it--is at least somewhat individual in nature. My parents told me lots of good things that I didn't listen to and probably a few bad things that I did. "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"~~Simon and Garfunkel. So I think that at some point we need to take ownership of that, especially were other options made obvious to us through our other interactions with the world--regardless of how wonderful was your family and glad for you that you had that--thru TV, movies, magazines, newspapers, overhearing conversation of world events, etc., all things I doubt you were isolated from. Were that not true, than bigots would only beget bigots, yet we know many break from such upbringing.

    As to degree of influence of the women's movement, I believe you'd have quite the argument with them to say they haven't influenced our world in their few decades of effort. While there's still lots of work to do--eternal vigilance--I believe we've all come a long way baby from Virginia Slims. I won't even take up that argument. You're all on your own against the woman's movement on that. Good luck.

    And as to your argument that patriarchal society has raised a bunch of white student shooters as opposed to the peaceful black rioters, I'm gonna step away from that too and suggest you argue your point on this forum in the angry black man thread. Again, good luck with that one also. You might notice I never even posted to that one. Yikes.

    I believe we need to put our memories in context and question even those. I've told the story here that I like to think of myself as a person who was unaware of prejudice until my later teens. I declare that because of earlier memories but I know it's a bit of nonsense. I was raised by humanists but in white bread world. Never was a bad word spoken in my family about black people. My mother did have a black cleaning lady who always left by the day's end. I learned later that our town had a restriction on the books--I'd imagine my parents didn't even know about it--that blacks had to be out of town by sunset. Only one black family had moved into town coincidentally the year we left.

    My mother's side was very athletic and my grandfather always spoke well of his black friends. My father's side was in entertainment and my father loves telling how family friend Fat's Waller brought him on stage during a performance at the Apollo when my dad was a little kid.

    So I was raised in a very accepting family. We moved from whitebread world to the Caribbean where it was probably 5% white. I was mid teens, still didn't know prejudice but started getting a taste of it because that was the 70s when there were racial tensions with whites being frequently murdered there. One episode I witnessed was looking out from the balcony onto the turquoise sea wherein an island child bloodied his horse, in the shallows just off the beach, for all the white folk to see. A few of my white friends there had problems including one threatened with his life, though I never experienced that directly and maintained my good feelings. My memories is that even at that point, I wasn't aware of prejudices though certainly I had conflicts in my face.
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    Oct 21, 2015 3:19 PM GMT
    We moved from there to Florida where I did my last year of high school in a system only recently then desegregated. I had through work made friends with two black guys at my school, one being a well respected and quite strong wrestler and the other a very funny guy. So while our school was closed down a few times by in house riotous behaviors--including guns though I don't recall which color had them--while some of my white friends where hit with rocks, I had no racial problems personally due to my interracial associations.

    So when living through memory, my experience of knowing prejudice comes to mind at about age 18. But that's not possible that I hadn't evidence beforehand, merely when I came to acknowledge for myself that I was living in this crap world of hate and not the wonderful world that my parents would have preferred for me.

    As a side note, we had left the Caribbean after the ol'man walked off a job--in a very high position--because he didn't like how they treated the black people there and found he wasn't able to alone change an oil company. He later in Florida in his own business hired a Jamaican guy to head a division with direct contact to construction management clients, a risky move which surely lost him some business in that often redneck world. I worked there too and I did get some nasty comments by that. So I've a great deal of respect for the ol'man.

    And by that I know that my earlier memories, my beautified childhood was not free of prejudice though that's how I tell my story, that I didn't know prejudice until my last year of high school. I know I must have seen it. I'll never forget that horse. I must have known it as horrifying as it must have been. I recognize now the difference between knowing and being consciously aware that I know.

    Not avoiding the love/trust issue but need to do stuff so maybe later. But just quickly if you think you can't love who you don't entirely trust than how does a monogamous relationship ever get over a one time cheat lol just kidding, sort of, in line with other forum discussion. Peace.
  • martinaston

    Posts: 310

    Oct 21, 2015 4:48 PM GMT
    I loved this series! bell hooks is a national treasure. The talk with Kevin Powell was another great one to hear.
  • mcbrion

    Posts: 305

    Oct 22, 2015 1:05 PM GMT
    And even what a person takes from society, from family--be that values or influence, however you want to describe it--is at least somewhat individual in nature. My parents told me lots of good things that I didn't listen to and probably a few bad things that I did. "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"~~Simon and Garfunkel. So I think that at some point we need to take ownership of that, especially were other options made obvious to us through our other interactions with the world--regardless of how wonderful was your family and glad for you that you had that--thru TV, movies, magazines, newspapers, overhearing conversation of world events, etc., all things I doubt you were isolated from. Were that not true, than bigots would only beget bigots, yet we know many break from such upbringing.

    As to degree of influence of the women's movement, I believe you'd have quite the argument with them to say they haven't influenced our world in their few decades of effort. While there's still lots of work to do--eternal vigilance--I believe we've all come a long way baby from Virginia Slims. I won't even take up that argument. You're all on your own against the woman's movement on that. Good luck.


    BOLD TEXT GOES HEREBOLD TEXT GOES HERE
    You missed completely what I said about the Women's Movement. I said it takes generations for the changed to be felt strongly. Considering women make .78 cents in pay to $1 for men, I'd say the inequality is still there. How did you miss that?????? Change takes more than 30-50 years. More like 100-200 years. You have but to look at the Black struggle still happening in the US after the freeing of the slaves and yet, 100 years later, there were bombings and murders when Blacks tried to REGISTER - not VOTE, just REGISTER to vote. I'm not worried about any conversation with women, because I know what they've gone - and are going through. As a Black man I can relate to them easily. I wish you're re-read what I wrote again, because you misinterpreted it completely.
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    Oct 22, 2015 1:27 PM GMT
    mcbrion saidYou missed completely what I said about the Women's Movement. I said it takes generations for the changed to be felt strongly. Considering women make .78 cents in pay to $1 for men, I'd say the inequality is still there. How did you miss that?????? Change takes more than 30-50 years. More like 100-200 years. You have but to look at the Black struggle still happening in the US after the freeing of the slaves and yet, 100 years later, there were bombings and murders when Blacks tried to REGISTER - not VOTE, just REGISTER to vote. I'm not worried about any conversation with women, because I know what they've gone - and are going through. As a Black man I can relate to them easily. I wish you're re-read what I wrote again, because you misinterpreted it completely.


    No, I did not miss what you've said. Great strides have been made in the women's movement and I said specifically that there's more work to do.

    Since suffrage there have been continual improvements to women's lives marked by numerous milestones. I'd imagine they felt every win right then, as did we when we got marriage. That you'd just focus on one thing and use that to imply they haven't advanced and then accuse me of not understanding is just stupid.

    Yes, we all know there are problems still to be worked on. You are not a genius or otherwise especially sensitive to the subject to uniquely mention.
  • mcbrion

    Posts: 305

    Oct 23, 2015 6:15 AM GMT
    Lets avoid using words like "stupid." It shuts down conversation. And saying you misinterpreted is hardly an accusation, unless you make it one. People of good hearts can misunderstand each other. Lets keep the conversation flowing on an enlightenment level, ok?

    I said you misinterpreted what I meant. We were discussing matriarchal societies and their traits and cultures. Are you a child of a patriarchal or matriarchal culture, first of all?

    Secondly, I said changes in behavior take generations to change not 30 years. I'm referring to behavior - the way we treat people - and the way we learned to treat people. I also referred to the fact that most high school and college shooters are between certain ages, and are White, as as serial killers. That would not indicate a surfeit of matriarchal values being modeled in the home, as matriarchal value include sharing, caring and taking care of. I said nothing about suffragist movement, which, originally, involved women's political rights to vote.

    Now, how did you conclude that what I wrote was disparaging? I was comparing patriarchy to matriarchy and somehow we were suddenly not discussing matriarchal (Black) values but something else. And the original tape was of a Black man discussing loving other Black men, but also having ben taught to hate the very person he wanted to Love. So how did we get there from the original statement I contributed, in which, I might add, you suggested ideas I might have had and not realized, which I countered with no, not true, since my family was fair skinned so there was nothing for me to consider until I was exposed to the outside world?
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    Oct 23, 2015 6:50 AM GMT
    I'll get back to this tomorrow or over weekend. Finally getting sleepy. But I can tell you right off that if you think you get to direct how I conduct myself...

    35899753.jpg
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    Oct 23, 2015 10:36 PM GMT
    mcbrion saidLets avoid using words like "stupid." It shuts down conversation. And saying you misinterpreted is hardly an accusation, unless you make it one. People of good hearts can misunderstand each other. Lets keep the conversation flowing on an enlightenment level, ok?

    I said you misinterpreted what I meant. We were discussing matriarchal societies and their traits and cultures. Are you a child of a patriarchal or matriarchal culture, first of all?

    Secondly, I said changes in behavior take generations to change not 30 years. I'm referring to behavior - the way we treat people - and the way we learned to treat people. I also referred to the fact that most high school and college shooters are between certain ages, and are White, as as serial killers. That would not indicate a surfeit of matriarchal values being modeled in the home, as matriarchal value include sharing, caring and taking care of. I said nothing about suffragist movement, which, originally, involved women's political rights to vote.

    Now, how did you conclude that what I wrote was disparaging? I was comparing patriarchy to matriarchy and somehow we were suddenly not discussing matriarchal (Black) values but something else. And the original tape was of a Black man discussing loving other Black men, but also having ben taught to hate the very person he wanted to Love. So how did we get there from the original statement I contributed, in which, I might add, you suggested ideas I might have had and not realized, which I countered with no, not true, since my family was fair skinned so there was nothing for me to consider until I was exposed to the outside world?


    To your objection of my use of a word which is not particularly politically incorrect, I've another you'll also not like: tough! I hadn’t called you stupid; rather, I called stupid a thing you’d said. Lots of nice people do stupid things. When I do one myself I laugh if it hasn't caused much harm. When someone else does one, I might laugh too or just shake my head. When I see stupid directed towards me, whether with ill intent or merely as some power play, I call it out. But now you say that I misinterpreted what you meant. Not a mind reader, all I’ve got are your words and how you placed them. If you meant something other than what you said, that's not my failing. Never mind that I might have been running with a thought to make a different point. I can no more command how you conduct yourself than you might direct how I conduct mine.

    To your first of all, placed thirdly, I was raised by working, non religious, humanist parents in this American culture which clearly is patriarchal for all of us regardless of what mitigating conditions existed within the home. Outside of some public and some private schooling, I had five years of overtly patriarchal Hebrew school, three days a week plus services once or twice each week plus holiday observance. Yet with all that patriarchy, not once did I develop as a serial shooter. I presume the religion of most Black American families headed by the patriarch, Jesus? Did he do a lot of rioting in his day? (which I say only by your dig of white shooters.) We didn’t have an intermediary but instead were granted direct access (we don't even like to shop retail) to the invisible non effeminate wholesale God, the one swinging the biggest dick. Cut, of course. I can say that without blasphemy, being on a casual first name basis.

    Contrary to the theory of non-matriarchy which you seem to rationalize as violent, we did not have guns in the home, though I was taught to shoot, guns and arrows. We did not require matriarchy to imbue a sense of, as you put it, “sharing, caring and taking care of”. We took care of our parents later in life just as they cared for us. My brother is a sandwich generation with kids and grandparents (in-laws) in a home he bought large enough to accommodate. We’ve those same “matriarchal” values (I put in quotes because I think the claim often bullshit or at least not as originating as claimed) though raised as latchkey kids. Our parents were often not home, at work during the day, socializing often otherwise. Our house was one of the few party houses for the town, pretty much always filled with friends, both mine and my brothers including some pretty major parties that our friends still talk about. We only told our folks about the larger parties later in life. Mom laughed. Dad seemed surprised.

    Though my brother and I were the two only siblings (he was a bad big brother in youth but is a good guy now), we grew up with lots of cousins 1st and 2nd. Many have died since but there were probably over 100 between both my parents, and we regularly saw more than 60 of’m so though raised latchkey, there was also lots of family contact included extended family. My mother was pretty much the hub of that on her side though she’d never consider herself matriarch. We lived an egalitarian family life and while always friends in the family, mom became a very good friend later in life. She's one of the very few people who got me. I never had to explain myself to her. While she functioned as matron for even the extended family (they all loved her dearly & she was the glue to those relationships) all that was never a source of egotism though she did delight in her role as a matter of joy. We never discussed it as a structure. Everyone just naturally did their own thing.
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    Oct 23, 2015 10:37 PM GMT
    To your point about taking generations to change, that’s sometimes true (more so then), sometimes not (more so now). Looking from a perspective of Black American history, you might see that very differently than how we might view a movement which did not begin with the civil war (used as just a point of reference) because today certainly the internet has been a game changer in disseminating information and thereby its effects on attitudes and behaviors. And what a privilege to have partaken in these electronics all the way from DOS prompts to apps. We are the witness to that.

    So, depending on context, I might disagree completely with your 30 year statement. How many years was it between Bush calling for a constitutional amendment outlawing us to Obama featured in an it gets better video. Behavior can change quicker than 30 years. Of course the longer a problem has persisted the more embedded and complex might be those issues. So you'd need to qualify that statement.

    As to the flow of how this conversation progressed, you're welcomed to review and outline for extra credit. I haven't the desire. As to your comment here that you perceive that I thought you were being disparaging, I hadn't made claim that I felt disparaged upon. If I've not considered something valid or even relevant, then probably I also wouldn't consider it personally denigrating though I might address it, fear not.

    To that I might have suggested what you say you might not have realized, you're welcome. I kid. I simply noted the parallel that you'd be black but not acknowledge awareness of skin color and that I'd be white but not acknowledge awareness of prejudice though we both had all the evidence, even if not from within our immediate families, but by our exposure to the outside world, the entire time. I by chance mentioned merely differences in levels of consciousness or better put the expansion of consciousness involving not just what we know but of what awareness we maintain. Perhaps it might be helpful in creating change to question how do we do that? How was it possible that we weren't aware of what we must have known? Surely I knew there was prejudice in the world. How is it that I thought I didn't know it was in mine? Was I not in the world, were you not in the world, but in our own little worlds, and how does that play into our awareness?
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    Oct 24, 2015 6:15 PM GMT
    I thought this was interesting. I will say that as a black man who was raised in a supportive black community but also a very racially diverse school community, I think the battle we face is a mental one. That isn't to say that our struggles aren't real, but in fact, that it is harder and more complicated than we realize because they aren't often obvious. System changes and policies, while helpful, will be limited in their impact. We have to get to a place where we can see ourselves as good, capable, and valuable. There is still a lot of hopelessness in the black community and in the gay community.

    There is how we see ourselves, how we see others in comparison to ourselves, and what external input we accept and reject. What I've found is that how we see ourselves is the foundation for EVERYTHING else. That's why its super duper important for gay men, minorities etc to spend way more of our energy on creating a solid and broad foundation for ourselves (exploring our needs, understanding how we react to challenges, fears, how we cope, when to ask for help or accept advice, our blind spots, exploring our strengths, celebrating achievements etc). Once we do this with ourselves, we can then do that with other people (understand their strengths, celebrate their victories, help them with their needs etc). And that creates connection and intimacy which are key to healthy relationships.

  • zelon1

    Posts: 81

    Oct 26, 2015 12:24 AM GMT
    MadeinMich said


    Black men loving each other is a revolutionary act
    So many gay men of color hate their own black skin and desperately chase down white men, it's very said. Then hide it under the guise of preference"