Keep the T in LGBT

  • metta

    Posts: 39155

    Nov 08, 2015 4:31 PM GMT
    Keep the T

    lgbt_by_keitilen-d522myo.jpg

    https://www.change.org/p/human-rights-campaign-glaad-the-task-force-lambda-legal-eqca-erw-bro-out-magazine-the-advocate-huffington-post-gay-voices-out-and-equal-workplace-advocates-keep-the-t
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14372

    Nov 09, 2015 2:18 PM GMT
    Wrong answer. The T must be removed from the GLB community once and for all. These gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.
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    Nov 09, 2015 3:26 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidThese gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.


    Your rhetoric is a little reminiscent of this 1966 Time Magazine article about homosexuals:

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/01/time-magazine-circa-1966-rhomosexuality-a-pernicious-sickness/

    “Even in purely nonreligious terms, homosexuality represents a misuse of the sexual faculty and, in the words of one Catholic educator, of “human construction.” It is a pathetic little second-rate substitute for reality, a pitiable flight from life. As such it deserves fairness, compassion, understanding and, when possible, treatment. But it deserves no encouragement, no glamorization, no rationalization, no fake status as minority martyrdom, no sophistry about simple differences in taste—and, above all, no pretense that it is anything but a pernicious sickness."
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    Nov 09, 2015 3:30 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidWrong answer. The T must be removed from the GLB community once and for all. These gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.


    I understand that you don't identify with transgenders at all. But the language and tone of your comments sounds awfully hateful and cold. I don't agree that gays and transgender have much in common either, but as someone who has experienced the pain and loneliness of being a minority in the past, there is a side of me who feels for them and wants them to at least have some support. If it needs to be under our umbrella for a little bit longer until there is a better place or better acceptance... so be it. If we want straight people to show us gays compassion even though many don't agree/identify with us, we gays should also show compassion in how we talk about people we don't agree/identify with... too.
  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 803

    Nov 09, 2015 3:35 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidWrong answer. The T must be removed from the GLB community once and for all. These gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.


    Elitism and bigotry at its "finest".
  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 803

    Nov 09, 2015 3:42 PM GMT
    woodfordr said
    roadbikeRob saidWrong answer. The T must be removed from the GLB community once and for all. These gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.


    I understand that you don't identify with transgenders at all. But the language and tone of your comments sounds awfully hateful and cold. I don't agree that gays and transgender have much in common either,


    They are another social minority subset of humans--JUST LIKE "gays", if you look at the WHOLE of social humanity.

    Inclusion is NOT for individual debate. Such audacious bigotry.
  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 803

    Nov 09, 2015 3:46 PM GMT
    Corriamo said
    roadbikeRob saidThese gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.


    Your rhetoric is a little reminiscent of this 1966 Time Magazine article about homosexuals:

    http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/01/time-magazine-circa-1966-rhomosexuality-a-pernicious-sickness/

    “Even in purely nonreligious terms, homosexuality represents a misuse of the sexual faculty and, in the words of one Catholic educator, of “human construction.” It is a pathetic little second-rate substitute for reality, a pitiable flight from life. As such it deserves fairness, compassion, understanding and, when possible, treatment. But it deserves no encouragement, no glamorization, no rationalization, no fake status as minority martyrdom, no sophistry about simple differences in taste—and, above all, no pretense that it is anything but a pernicious sickness."


    Which MANY, some in positions of authority, still believe--even if just to be expedient.
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    Nov 09, 2015 3:46 PM GMT
    theantijock said on this Houston toilet thread http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4128364 theantijock%20engage%20stalker%20reducti

    LGBT is about one thing: we who are not heterosexuals-living-as-heterosexuals who themselves make up in this world the hegemony, the dominance of one group over all the others. So LGBT is merely the counter to that. Shredding us weakens your position and strengthens the already installed hegemony of the hetero.

    The combination lettering doesn't say to anyone that having the B with the G means that we gay people eat pussy like a bisexual might. Fear not, no one is going to confuse a cocksucker with a carpet muncher. Nor does it mean that more G's wind up T's, particularly not those who might molest little girls who first off would be victims of pedophiles in any case, that would be the orientation of the kids' abusers--and would-be-victims wherever that might occur would most likely be protected by good parents--even while the mechanical description of their perving on, yikes, little girls would be hetero, would not be gay, regardless of outfit.

    There's nothing gay about a penis going into a vagina so claiming a trans/gay association and not a trans/str8 one where a guy in a dress rapes a little girl seems to deny a little thing called reality. It doesn't seem out of line on our part to insist on reality in this regard. We're not talking about Jesus, we're talking about toilets, after all.

    To dismiss all trans as pedophile is the very same thing as a hetero dismissing all gay as pedophile. And we suffered decades of that, even still, so much so, that even now younger gay assholes say the same about their elders who might enjoy younger consenting adults. You're doing what the homophobic among them do and that doesn't speak well of you. You do to your own gay community and you do to the trans community what the homophobes do to us.

    Fact: most guys in dresses are otherwise hetero. Most guys with penises prefer vagina regardless of their dress, be it a bouffant, cocktail, debutante or smart pantsuit.

    As to mixing of the genders, orientations, whathaveyous wherevers, how curious that the wide-stance bunch has the biggest mouth on this. They seem confused. The only place that's inappropriate is not a bathroom but a bathhouse where men ought to dress appropriately, in nothing but a towel. Unless you're Bette Midler, leave your tits at the door. Thank you.

    To HERO particularly, I wonder if this wasn't merely an excuse to flaunt their homophobia. Because all they had to do was to disguise it under the wraps of "oh, I thought that meant little girls would get molested by men in dresses" when what they did was to deny LGBT rights.

    So to me the trans issue is a diversion being used on both sides, both by the homophobic around us and the homophobic within us.
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    Nov 09, 2015 6:04 PM GMT
    I too, as a gay man, am uncomfortable with being lumped together with those with gender dysphoria and transsexuals. Just as society at large is becoming comfortable with gay people, along come people saying that psychologically they do not identify with their birth gender and that they are women trapped in a men's bodies I have never wanted to be a woman. I don't want to wear dresses. I do not relate to the female psyche. Drag holds no interest for me.

    Effeminate gays kept me in the closet a very long time. I wasn't like them. I didn't want to be associated with them. I knew I was gay but I also knew I wasn't a woman. I don't pretend to understand gender dysphoria. I don't want society to confuse gay with transgendered. As it is gay men are all to often assumed to want to be women and gay adolescents are often taunted for being girly.

    I also am conflicted about pre op transsexuals using the opposite gender restroom, lockerroom, showers. If you have a penis and there's no way in Hell you can pass as a woman (6'4", deep voice, and an Adam's apple for days) you either dress as a man when in public and reserve your transvestism when home or at friends' homes. If you can pass, then there should be no issue when using the women's room as there are stalls and no one should be flashing their genitals to anyone. I don't think just because you say you identify as a woman should you be allowed to use the women's facilities. This is an issue for the gender dysphoric not gays. I may think I'm executive material but unless I am one I won't be allowed to use the executive washroom.

    Whether or not the T should be appended to LGB is a purely academic exercise as I don't believe that there is an actual organization behind the acronym. If you want to use LBGT, knock yourself out. I'll just use the term gay where necessary (not much of a fan of acronyms).
  • metta

    Posts: 39155

    Nov 09, 2015 6:35 PM GMT
    ^
    "Just as society at large is becoming comfortable with gay people"


    That did not happen without the Transgender community. They fought along with us the entire way. And we are not done yet. Who do you think started the incident at Stonewall? It was not a white gay boy as the most recent movie tells. Whether you like it or not, they are a part of our history.
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    Nov 09, 2015 6:58 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidI too, as a gay man, am uncomfortable with being lumped together with those with gender dysphoria and transsexuals. Just as society at large is becoming comfortable with gay people, along come people saying that psychologically they do not identify with their birth gender and that they are women trapped in a men's bodies I have never wanted to be a woman. I don't want to wear dresses. I do not relate to the female psyche. Drag holds no interest for me.

    Effeminate gays kept me in the closet a very long time. I wasn't like them. I didn't want to be associated with them. I knew I was gay but I also knew I wasn't a woman. I don't pretend to understand gender dysphoria. I don't want society to confuse gay with transgendered. As it is gay men are all to often assumed to want to be women and gay adolescents are often taunted for being girly.



    Exactly. I have met scores of men who have told me they remained in the closet because they didn't want people to think they wanted to be a woman. And although I don't share RobBikeBob's hatred of transexuals, I agree that we do not belong under the same banner. I don't recall ever seeing a black civil rights group including us in their group, and if they had they'd probably still be picking cotton and saying "yes masta."
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    Nov 09, 2015 7:20 PM GMT
    woodfordr said
    roadbikeRob saidWrong answer. The T must be removed from the GLB community once and for all. These gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.


    I understand that you don't identify with transgenders at all. But the language and tone of your comments sounds awfully hateful and cold. I don't agree that gays and transgender have much in common either, but as someone who has experienced the pain and loneliness of being a minority in the past, there is a side of me who feels for them and wants them to at least have some support. If it needs to be under our umbrella for a little bit longer until there is a better place or better acceptance... so be it. If we want straight people to show us gays compassion even though many don't agree/identify with us, we gays should also show compassion in how we talk about people we don't agree/identify with... too.



    This^^^^^
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    Nov 09, 2015 7:53 PM GMT
    How about just cutting out all the letters and start referring to certain groups of people as...groups of people.
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    Nov 10, 2015 12:33 AM GMT
    I have only the utmost love for those who are transgendered, however I've often contemplated the logic behind their arguments and found it to be a bit confounding, if not in opposition to my mentality around being gay. Hear me out.

    From my understanding, and watching programs and reading up on the issues of being transgender, the general idea is that a trans person feels as though they are not the sex they were physically born into.

    So here's where I get confused. Every society has had it's own cultural definition of the roles and archetypes that genders fulfill. If you were born during the World Wars, your mother may have come home in coveralls, greasy and sweaty from working in a factory all day. If you grew up in a wealthy Victorian family, femininity would have been defined by social niceties and running a household while decked out in lace. Back in the Medieval era, the colour pink was a boys color, as it was seen as the lesser shade of Red, the colour of passion, courage and blood, blue was for girls as it was seen as being pretty, like flowers.

    My point is that we define what it is like to be a man or woman, within the confines of our society. When I hear the stories of trans people I often hear of their connection to things that our society prescribes to being either masculine or feminine. These however are just stereotypes.

    So much of our struggle as gay men has been to thwart those stereotypes, to show that even as men who love men, we can be as confident in our masculinity as any other. Truly what makes us a man is our mindset and the anatomy we have hanging between our legs. The rest is all cultural set dressing, and our own interests and choices.

    We are also rebels, so many of us are able to do things stereotypical of both men and women and enjoy them. We are breaking the boundaries set by the post-war propaganda that forced men and women back into cliche roles. Even our heterosexual brethren are stripping down those roles. Simply watch an episode of "The Great British Bake Off" and see how many of the male contestants are in fact straight men with a wife and family. To me this is positive progress for society and the world.

    Transgender politics seem to push the sexes back into easily defined boxes by implying that someone must be another gender because they feel that they like the things attributed to a stereotype.

    As a man born with male anatomy and hormones, I can in no way know what it "feels" like to be a woman. I will never have a period, or menopause or hot flashes. Any attempt to say that a biological man knows what it feels like to be a woman seems to be an insult to women. As though I could ever really know what it must be like to be any one else in the world.

    I may be simplifying too much, but even as a gay man, having been to many pride events, watching a few documentaries, and the first season of Transparent (which I love btw), the only message I hear is that they "feel" like they're a woman.

    All of that said, transgender people are people, and they deserve respect and love. If anything we should be more empathetic to them. We are all on a journey, and I think they deserve to walk the path they choose as long as they are not hurting anyone else through the process.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14372

    Nov 10, 2015 12:39 AM GMT
    FitBlackCuddler said
    woodfordr said
    roadbikeRob saidWrong answer. The T must be removed from the GLB community once and for all. These gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.


    I understand that you don't identify with transgenders at all. But the language and tone of your comments sounds awfully hateful and cold. I don't agree that gays and transgender have much in common either,


    They are another social minority subset of humans--JUST LIKE "gays", if you look at the WHOLE of social humanity.

    Inclusion is NOT for individual debate. Such audacious bigotry.
    Why is it bigotry, because it is the truthicon_question.gif You are too liberal for your own good. The gay, lesbian, and bisexual community would be far better off without the these gender bending radicals pulling us all down and making us look like a bunch of rejects, weirdos, and psychos. The transgendered does not belong under our umbrella, they are a major liability for all of us.
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    Nov 10, 2015 1:01 AM GMT
    metta said^
    "Just as society at large is becoming comfortable with gay people"


    That did not happen without the Transgender community. They fought along with us the entire way. And we are not done yet. Who do you think started the incident at Stonewall? It was not a white gay boy as the most recent movie tells. Whether you like it or not, they are a part of our history.


    From Wikipedia:

    "Not everyone in the gay community considered the revolt a positive development. To many older homosexuals and many members of the Mattachine Society who had worked throughout the 1960s to promote homosexuals as no different from heterosexuals, the display of violence and effeminate behavior was embarrassing. Randy Wicker, who had marched in the first gay picket lines before the White House in 1965, said the "screaming queens forming chorus lines and kicking went against everything that I wanted people to think about homosexuals... that we were a bunch of drag queens in the Village acting disorderly and tacky and cheap.""

    Evidently there were gays working for acceptance before Stonewall.

    Also from Wiki:

    A scuffle broke out when a woman in handcuffs was escorted from the door of the bar to the waiting police wagon several times. She escaped repeatedly and fought with four of the police, swearing and shouting, for about ten minutes. Described as "a typical New York butch" and "a dyke–stone butch", she had been hit on the head by an officer with a baton for, as one witness claimed, complaining that her handcuffs were too tight.[65] Bystanders recalled that the woman, whose identity remains unknown (Stormé DeLarverie has been identified by some, including herself, as the woman, but accounts vary [66][note 3]), sparked the crowd to fight when she looked at bystanders and shouted, "Why don't you guys do something?" After an officer picked her up and heaved her into the back of the wagon,[67] the crowd became a mob and went "berserk": "It was at that moment that the scene became explosive."[68]

    Nope not a gay white boy but evidently a lesbian.
  • metta

    Posts: 39155

    Nov 10, 2015 1:16 AM GMT
    ^
    There were also transgender people and drag queens before Stonewall as well. It was not until Stonewall and a few other events during that same period that we really pushed back enough that society started to recognize us. LGBT history without the T would be dishonest.
  • Sincityfan

    Posts: 409

    Nov 10, 2015 1:18 AM GMT
    You can't make an LGBT sandwich without the T.
    Lettuce, Guacamole, Bacon, and Tomato, unless you hate tomatoes. Are youz telling me you hate tomatoes?
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    Nov 10, 2015 1:25 AM GMT
    One can respect and empathize with tomatoes but that doesn't necessarily mean you want them on your lettuce, guacamole, bacon (LGB) sandwich.

    Which is exactly the point I made in my original post. I don't think there is an official LGBTWXYZ organization so the argument is purely academic.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14372

    Nov 10, 2015 1:34 AM GMT
    metta said^
    There were also transgender people and drag queens before Stonewall as well. It was not until Stonewall and a few other events during that same period that we really pushed back enough that society started to recognize us. LGBT history without the T would be dishonest.
    That was back than and this is now. We would have progressed much sooner in history if it weren't for these transgenders starting the actual violent incidents at the Stonewall Inn back in June 1969. This riot just like the race riots of 1967 frayed a lot of American nerves and caused greater distrust and dislike from the American mainstream. But the gay, lesbian, and bisexual community has made tremendous progress over the past few decades in our arduous March to total acceptance and inclusiveness in the mainstream. Keeping these gender bending radicals under our umbrella will only damage and undermine the hard work and progress that we have made as a community. The referendum in Houston is proof positive of the potentially serious damage that can be done to the GLB community if we don't permanently drop the T and send these gender benders out on their own. The transgendered does not belong in our community, period.
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    Nov 10, 2015 2:26 AM GMT
    hennessy-naked-tits-tranny-dick-ass-hole
    I'm just an ordinary girl.
  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 803

    Nov 10, 2015 3:08 AM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    metta said^
    There were also transgender people and drag queens before Stonewall as well. It was not until Stonewall and a few other events during that same period that we really pushed back enough that society started to recognize us. LGBT history without the T would be dishonest.
    That was back than and this is now. We would have progressed much sooner in history if it weren't for these transgenders starting the actual violent incidents at the Stonewall Inn back in June 1969. This riot just like the race riots of 1967 frayed a lot of American nerves and caused greater distrust and dislike from the American mainstream. But the gay, lesbian, and bisexual community has made tremendous progress over the past few decades in our arduous March to total acceptance and inclusiveness in the mainstream. Keeping these gender bending radicals under our umbrella will only damage and undermine the hard work and progress that we have made as a community. The referendum in Houston is proof positive of the potentially serious damage that can be done to the GLB community if we don't permanently drop the T and send these gender benders out on their own. The transgendered does not belong in our community, period.


    Being "gays" would NOW be as closeted as it had been before Stonewall because there would have been no event (thanks to the dark Latinos, blacks and drag queens) to start the process of change.

    ALL that the current "gay" generation knows (and takes for granted) would NOT be.

    NO "pride" parades/circuit parties
    NO safe places to congregate
    NO real havens to be at your ease at
    NO online "gay" anything
    NO "gay" marriage
    NO job security
  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 803

    Nov 10, 2015 3:14 AM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    FitBlackCuddler said
    woodfordr said
    roadbikeRob saidWrong answer. The T must be removed from the GLB community once and for all. These gender bending radicals are a horrendous embarrassment to gays and lesbians and a high risk liability as evidenced by the public referendum in Houston. This keep the T is nonsensical bullshit. The trannies have no legitimate right under our umbrella. Time to cut the cord ASAP.


    I understand that you don't identify with transgenders at all. But the language and tone of your comments sounds awfully hateful and cold. I don't agree that gays and transgender have much in common either,


    They are another social minority subset of humans--JUST LIKE "gays", if you look at the WHOLE of social humanity.

    Inclusion is NOT for individual debate. Such audacious bigotry.
    Why is it bigotry, because it is the truthicon_question.gif You are too liberal for your own good. The gay, lesbian, and bisexual community would be far better off without the these gender bending radicals pulling us all down and making us look like a bunch of rejects, weirdos, and psychos. The transgendered does not belong under our umbrella, they are a major liability for all of us.


    Bigotry or any desire to deny rights and liberties to others that YOU enjoy is NEVER *truth*

    These are PEOPLE...human beings who are ultimately the SAME AS YOU. How dare you bitch about discrimination and then casually discriminate?
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14372

    Nov 10, 2015 3:16 AM GMT
    FitBlackCuddler said
    roadbikeRob said
    metta said^
    There were also transgender people and drag queens before Stonewall as well. It was not until Stonewall and a few other events during that same period that we really pushed back enough that society started to recognize us. LGBT history without the T would be dishonest.
    That was back than and this is now. We would have progressed much sooner in history if it weren't for these transgenders starting the actual violent incidents at the Stonewall Inn back in June 1969. This riot just like the race riots of 1967 frayed a lot of American nerves and caused greater distrust and dislike from the American mainstream. But the gay, lesbian, and bisexual community has made tremendous progress over the past few decades in our arduous March to total acceptance and inclusiveness in the mainstream. Keeping these gender bending radicals under our umbrella will only damage and undermine the hard work and progress that we have made as a community. The referendum in Houston is proof positive of the potentially serious damage that can be done to the GLB community if we don't permanently drop the T and send these gender benders out on their own. The transgendered does not belong in our community, period.


    Being "gays" would NOW be as closeted as it had been before Stonewall because there would have been no event (thanks to the dark Latinos, blacks and drag queens) to start the process of change.

    ALL that the current "gay" generation knows (and takes for granted) would NOT be.

    NO "pride" parades/circuit parties
    NO safe places to congregate
    NO real havens to be at your ease at
    NO online "gay" anything
    NO "gay" marriage
    NO job security
    Not necessarily true. The gay groups before the Stonewall riots were slowly but surely making needed progress in educating the mainstream about gay men. The Stonewall riots just exposed an ugly, violent side of our community that frayed many nerves in as much the same way as the race riots of 1967.
  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 803

    Nov 10, 2015 3:32 AM GMT
    Radd saidI'm just an ordinary girl.


    Here is another transgender person, Radd.

    buckangel_18.jpg