Drop the T in LGBT

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    Nov 09, 2015 10:12 PM GMT
    WOW, like many of our RJ thread discussions. Yes, the 2nd pitiful showing of Stonewall movies does give an impression that the "truth" about our history has been suppressed by the T in LGBT, who continue to want top billing in our civil rights struggle. It just might be time to cut the cord as this relationship appears to have run its course.

    As I understood it, doctors, say in the 60's, would "choose" the sex (male, female) of the new born if it wasn't clear on the outside appearance of genitalia. This is VERY different from the sexual attraction of GLB

    Sex assignment
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_assignment

    Sex assignment (sometimes known as gender assignment) is the discernment of the sex at the birth of a baby.[1] In the majority of births, a relative, midwife, nurse or physician inspects the genitalia when the baby is delivered, and gender is determined, without the expectation of ambiguity.[2] Assignment may also be done prior to birth through prenatal sex discernment.

    Even though the term assignment suggests a decision on the part of the parents or medical professionals, these adults are not literally choosing a sex to assign to the child. The act is almost universally considered an observation or recognition of an inherent aspect of a baby. In the majority of cases, the gender of rearing of the child matches the assigned gender. The act of assignment carries the implicit expectation that future gender identity will develop in the gender of anatomy, assignment, and rearing.[3]

    In some cases, the assigned sex or one or more of these related observations and conclusions are found to be incorrect. In the case of some transgender individuals or intersex individuals, gender identity is not consistent with the assigned sex or sex of rearing.[4] There have also been rare instances where parents (for a variety of reasons) have reared an anatomically typical child as if he or she were of the opposite gender. In some conditions, usually termed intersex, internal anatomy may not be consistent with conclusions drawn based on observation of external anatomy

    In the 1960s, pediatric surgeons attempted and claimed success with reconstruction of infant genitalia, especially enlargement or construction of vaginas. The view of gender as a purely social construction, and gender identity as a result of nurture rather than nature reached near-universal acceptance, especially among liberal, progressive, and academic portions of Western society. The primary goal of assignment was to choose the sex that would lead to the least inconsistency between external anatomy and assigned psyche (gender identity). This led to the recommendation that any child without a penis or with a penis too small to penetrate a vagina could be raised as a girl, taught to be a girl, and would develop a female gender identity, and that this would be the best way to minimize future discrepancy between psyche and external anatomy in those few biologically male infants unfortunate enough to be born with an irreparably defective penis (e.g., cloacal exstrophy), or to lose it to accidental trauma in early infancy. This was termed the "Optimal gender model."[8] In the John/Joan case, John Money claimed successful reassignment at 17 months of age from male to female of a boy whose penis was destroyed during circumcision. However, this claim was later shown to be largely false, and the subject later identified as a man


    Interesting community developments icon_neutral.gif


    The author of the ‘Drop the T’ petition talks about the surging conflicts between the trans and gay rights movements
    http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/09/exclusive-gay-man-explains-his-petition-to-drop-the-t-in-lgbt/


    Sign the petition, Drop the T
    https://www.change.org/p/human-rights-campaign-glaad-lambda-legal-the-advocate-out-magazine-huffpost-gay-voices-drop-the-t
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    Nov 09, 2015 10:38 PM GMT
    I am not sure what the thrust of your argument is here, but regarding your citation, what about the case of this population in the DR where kids don't physically differentiate until puberty? If these kids moved to Texass, the school bathroom police wouldn't just have a fit, their little pinheads would explode.

    _85647167_catherineandcarla_bbc.jpg



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    Nov 09, 2015 10:47 PM GMT


    I don't know about today, but back 40-50 years ago, getting pregnant and the birth process was definitely a crap shoot as far as gender assignment
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    Nov 09, 2015 11:12 PM GMT
    Signed. Almost 1,500 signatures so far.
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    Nov 09, 2015 11:26 PM GMT
    mindgarden saidI am not sure what the thrust of your argument is here, but regarding your citation, what about the case of this population in the DR where kids don't physically differentiate until puberty? If these kids moved to Texass, the school bathroom police wouldn't just have a fit, their little pinheads would explode.






    I don't know what doctors do today if they encounter the same problem as cited in the sex assignment Wiki page. With genital reconstruction methods and gender birth assignment vastly improved over what doctors had in the 60's, I am sure they now get close to 90% accuracy rate. They are still not perfect though.

    Todays mother and her pre-natal care is so much more advanced and informed than 50 years ago. The technology and information about the birth process is all readily available in an instant, post internet age.

    50 years ago, mothers regularly drank alcohol and smoked cigarettes during fetal development without discouragement of doctors. That is unheard of today, for the most part. I am not a parent, but getting news of your new born
    deformed or lack of genitals at birth would be kind of distressing.

    My mom told me every one of her friends thought I was a girl up until the time I got carbon monoxide poisoning at 4 years old. I was circumcised as a new born and was a "normal boy" until I got sick. This illness at such a young age, affected my future growth in child development and especially at puberty. I failed to reach puberty in the normal range of 9-13 years old when they compared me to my older brother who reached his at 10. So much so, I had some kind of permanent testosterone implant at 10 years old, from the 70's, I assume to help jump start my puberty, which by 15, it worked, except for muscle development. When I came out as gay, at 25, my moms first thought and question was "are you going to wear women's clothes now?". Even though I didn't understand myself at the time, I told her, no, I had no interest in women's clothes. I suppose all indications and parents understanding of the time, assumed all feminine boys grow up to wear women's clothes


    I feel bad for this guy, but his doctors and parents should have sexually assigned him female after a certain point when he never achieved puberty by 16 years old. As you can tell, he never masculinized. Depends on which gender he identifies with, if male, he probably gets and has to continue to get testosterone treatments for the rest of his life. It might be just easier for him to be reassigned to female, although he would probably have to take estrogen since puberty gave him neither, testosterone or estrogen. This guy would be an interesting study to see which sex, male or female he is attracted to since he lacks any natural hormones. He is proof that gender identity is totally separate issue from sexual attraction.




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    Nov 10, 2015 12:12 AM GMT
    theantijock%20engage%20stalker%20reducti

    I never quite bought into that Trans started Stonewall although that's how I'd tell the story because I think it camp, not because I ever bought it as accurate.

    I tend to think it more feasible that youth played the larger initial part, but only because it makes sense to me that the younger kids would have been the more volatile cohort. How I imagine the spark of Stonewall is that a cop got fresh with a trans person, to which the trans person got sassy to which the cop got physical to which youth came in to protect their trans friend.

    In my mind, the trans swung the first purse, the cop struck back so a teen hit him over the head with that Stonewall brick, now more famous than a moon rock ever dreamed to be.

    So whether or not they were the first to throw a punch a brick a rock or a purse means nothing to me.

    Loyalty means everything to me.
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    Nov 10, 2015 4:36 AM GMT
    WOW, explosion icon_surprised.gif


    The Devious New Conservative Plan To Turn LGBT People Against Each Other
    http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/11/09/3720478/change-petition-transphobia-wedge/

    Anti-LGBT conservatives are now actively highlighting the petition to support their anti-transgender positions. The Federalist, a publication that attacks transgender people as part of its editorial policy and is generally anti-LGBT, interviewed the person who claims to have started the petition, but kept his identity anonymous “out of fear of retaliation from the trans movement.” The Heritage Foundation’s chief opponent of LGBT equality, Ryan T. Anderson, similarly promoted the interview, further demonstrating the anti-LGBT motives behind the petition


    If you have ever been to a circuit party, you might have shared a bathroom with real women or the occasional drag queen that attend. Obviously, the straight christian community would NEVER understand this part of our community icon_rolleyes.gif

    btw, Alyson Calagna is a circuit party DJ, not a drag queen

    12196055_10153138983321366_1331876540402


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    Nov 10, 2015 4:55 AM GMT

    And earlier this year, the militant T- Tranny movement strikes overseas, question IS, who or whom is leading this Tranny, get out of my way, movement? When Trannys diss their drag counter parts, something is def up. Trannys want to break free? OK, let them icon_eek.gif




    Drag Queens Banned From Pride Event for Offending Trans People
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/23/drag-queens-banned-from-pride-event-for-offendi-ng-trans-people.html

    In Scotland, a ban on drag performers at an event in this year’s pride celebrations has rocked the LGBT community and spun into in-fighting between advocacy groups.

    Free Pride, a newcomer organization with a self-proclaimed plan to revive the event’s radicalism, announced what many found was a perplexing decision on Friday: It was banning drag queens from performing in their August celebrations.

    In an explanation on its blog, the founders argued that drag turned gender identity into a joke. “The decision was taken by transgender individuals who were uncomfortable with having drag performances at the event,” it wrote. “It was felt that it would make some of those who were transgender or questioning their gender uncomfortable.”

    Pride Glasgow, the main organizer of the weekend, was quick to distance itself from the ban. “We can understand the actions behind Free Pride over the banning of Drag Performers but believe this action to be wrong and going against what an inclusive event should be about,” it said in a statement.

    The social media backlash was swift and ruthless.

    RuPaul’s Drag Race performer Michelle Visage wrote a fury of tweets against the decision. “WHO. THE HELL. BANS DRAG QUEENS FROM GAY PRIDE? THE VERY BACKBONE OF THE PRIDE CELEBRATIONS? hello, ever heard of THE STONEWALL RIOTS?!!!” she wrote, getting hundreds of retweets.

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    Nov 10, 2015 5:25 AM GMT

    Well, the T's now have their leader. Does this person represent all, bisexual people, gay men and lesbian women too? icon_rolleyes.gif




    Caitlyn Jenner Stuns in Royal Blue Moschino Gown at the 2015 Women of the Year Awards
    https://www.yahoo.com/celebrity/news/caitlyn-jenner-stuns-royal-blue-moschino-gown-2015-031817572-us-weekly.html?ref=gs


    Jenner was crowned Glamour’s Woman of the Year at the event. Last year’s honoree was transgender actress Laverne Cox

    1447122768_caitlyn-jenner-article.jpg


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    Nov 10, 2015 5:34 AM GMT

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    Nov 10, 2015 5:53 AM GMT
    I still gotta say, I just don't get it. But it's worth noting that a lot of Futurists or basically Science Fiction authors from at least as far back as the 30's used to suggest that as people started living longer, they'd switch back and forth between male and female over the decades.

    It's just... we don't really know how to do that yet, and people who try "end up looking silly, or dead, or both." But personally, I think when we do master the genetics, our kids won't be choosing "male" or "female." They'll be inventing all new ways of living that will blow our minds.
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    Nov 10, 2015 1:08 PM GMT
    ELNathB said“The decision [to ban drag queens] was taken by transgender individuals who were uncomfortable with having drag performances at the event,” it wrote. “It was felt that it would make some of those who were transgender or questioning their gender uncomfortable.

    According to that logic, then do drag queens also make gay men feel "uncomfortable"? Especially those just coming out timidly, who also are still at the stage of "questioning their gender"?

    And actually I've observed that transgender encounter less actual hostility and resistance from drag queens in the majority of situations than from gay guys who don't do drag. What's a point of contention seems to be transgender performing in the same shows as the drag queens, since many queens adhere to what they consider a long drag tradition of gay men pretending to be woman.

    In fact, most queens will tell you that if you're a straight man in women's clothing then you're actually a female impersonator, not a drag queen. So they'll be quick to correct you if you call someone like Barry Humphreys a drag queen, who performs as "Dame Edna" (and Humphreys himself says he's an impersonator, and is a married straight guy). Queens will even claim some gays are impersonators, not drag queens, if they try too hard to be indistinguishable copies of women, and lack the over-the-top signature flamboyance of a drag queen.

    So while there can be a turf battle on stage, and a semantic war, otherwise I don't sense a real problem with drag queens & transgender. As I said, I think the more essential resistance to transgender comes from gay men who don't do drag.

    It's more the gays in their male street clothes who won't go near a transgender in clubs, bars, parties & elsewhere. Making me feel bad for them, and prompting me to go over and socialize with them when no one else will. And meeting some lovely people in the process.
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    Nov 10, 2015 1:32 PM GMT
    mindgarden saidI still gotta say, I just don't get it. But it's worth noting that a lot of Futurists or basically Science Fiction authors from at least as far back as the 30's used to suggest that [gender can be an arbitrary & plastic term, if I'm stating that accurately].

    Playwright & author George Bernard Shaw did something very similar in his work "Man and Superman". The people in his future world lived so long that they began to lose their sexual identities, essentially becoming asexual.

    Giving the impression that Shaw thought sex was a problematic developmental phase, after which humans would become more like the angels. He wasn't a science fiction writer, but definitely a non-conformist, and a kind of subversive philosopher.
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    Nov 10, 2015 2:58 PM GMT
    ELNathB saidAnti-LGBT conservatives are now actively highlighting the petition to support their anti-transgender positions. The Federalist, a publication that attacks transgender people as part of its editorial policy and is generally anti-LGBT, interviewed the person who claims to have started the petition, but kept his identity anonymous “out of fear of retaliation from the trans movement.” The Heritage Foundation’s chief opponent of LGBT equality, Ryan T. Anderson, similarly promoted the interview, further demonstrating the anti-LGBT motives behind the petition...


    Oh, gee, what a surprise!

    What also is not a surprise are the anti-LGBT among us who have outed themselves by aligning with the anti-LGBT conservative scum. And these guys to me are worse than the gay men who weren't so sure about marriage for gay men earlier on. At least those had the opportunity to evolve. These new anti-LBGT gays simply devolve. It's like watching a human become again a flatworm.

    I'd liken this stupid as fuck episode to str8 men who do not fear an alliance with a gay man because he is secure in his own sexuality, in his heteromanliness. I'd see gay men not afraid of trans people in the same light. I'm not turned on by them in the slightest. I love masculinity and I love the dick. Thank God for gay men. I don't relate at all to the sexuality of trans who might have one but not both (and I've checked so I'd know the menu options--plus I had a bi (omni) partner into it, and I've experimented on my own since then just to see if I was turned on by it: turns out no).

    So what else to think of these cowards but that they feel threatened in their homomanliness by someone else's sexuality, that they think their sexuality will by association detract from our own sexuality.

    Hmmmm, isn't that just what some str8 people used to do, still do to us, to say that we diminish humanity, that we devalue marriage. Those who think like that can go fuck themselves, be they their str8s or our gays among us.

    mindgarden saidI still gotta say, I just don't get it. But it's worth noting that a lot of Futurists or basically Science Fiction authors from at least as far back as the 30's used to suggest that as people started living longer, they'd switch back and forth between male and female over the decades.

    It's just... we don't really know how to do that yet, and people who try "end up looking silly, or dead, or both." But personally, I think when we do master the genetics, our kids won't be choosing "male" or "female." They'll be inventing all new ways of living that will blow our minds.


    ie Heinlein, one of my very favorites.
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    Nov 10, 2015 5:05 PM GMT
    I've always abhorred drag queens because they manage to insult both straight and gay men and women simultaneously. That's the kind of twofer I can do without!
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    Nov 10, 2015 5:18 PM GMT
    While I don't abhor drag queens I can do without the catty bitchiness they all to often exhibit. I stopped going to local drag shows because of it. You don't insult people whose tips you rely on.

    I prefer female impersonators who actually sing and look like real women rather than the lips syncing, clown made up, caricatures that drag queens are. Just my preference.
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    Nov 10, 2015 8:03 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    ELNathB said“The decision [to ban drag queens] was taken by transgender individuals who were uncomfortable with having drag performances at the event,” it wrote. “It was felt that it would make some of those who were transgender or questioning their gender uncomfortable.

    According to that logic, then do drag queens also make gay men feel "uncomfortable"? Especially those just coming out timidly, who also are still at the stage of "questioning their gender"?

    And actually I've observed that transgender encounter less actual hostility and resistance from drag queens in the majority of situations than from gay guys who don't do drag. What's a point of contention seems to be transgender performing in the same shows as the drag queens, since many queens adhere to what they consider a long drag tradition of gay men pretending to be woman.

    In fact, most queens will tell you that if you're a straight man in women's clothing then you're actually a female impersonator, not a drag queen. So they'll be quick to correct you if you call someone like Barry Humphreys a drag queen, who performs as "Dame Edna (and Humphreys himself says he's an impersonator, and is a married straight guy). Queens will even claim some gays are impersonators, not drag queens, if they try too hard to be indistinguishable copies of women, and lack the over-the-top signature flamboyance of a drag queen.

    So while there can be a turf battle on stage, and a semantic war, otherwise I don't sense a real problem with drag queens & transgender. As I said, I think the more essential resistance to transgender comes from gay men who don't do drag.

    It's more the gays in their male street clothes who won't go near a transgender in clubs, bars, parties & elsewhere. Making me feel bad for them, and prompting me to go over and socialize with them when no one else will. And meeting some lovely people in the process.






    I remember, when I first came out, in the Midwest 25 years ago, most 'small town' gay bars I went to had a drag show of some kind. My first 'group of friends' I met were into the whole drag scene, since I was new (considered fresh meat) at the time, I didn't know anything about the real gay community that already existed. Going from bar to bar, and making drag performer friends was the only gay life I knew of until I started to branch out

    After branching out and by the 3rd year out of the closet, I realized this drag life was not for me. I slowly stopped seeing those people associated with the drag business. I could never understand the 'deer in the headlight' look of audience patrons while a drag person performs on stage, at the same time, 'collecting monetary tips' from the same people. Each known drag performer had their own particular set of fans, those fans would follow the performer to each venue.

    This was of course before the internet. Once I realized you don't have to 'follow the crowd', I decided to find 'my own crowd' and who, what felt comfortable, for me. This is when I started bowling, something I did since I was a kid, teen and adult, but in my straight days. I was actually relieved when I found IGBO, real gay bowling leagues and other gay men who liked bowling to. THIS, I could definitely relate to and met some of the nicest people I found, up until that point. My focus shifted from the drag queen days of "is this all there is?", to "finally, I found my people". I would play in a gay softball league but I would be afraid to injure my horrible joints, I cant afford injury. I already had to give up bowling due to elbow tendonitis, as I got older. I can still golf but I have to watch my back

    In my 25 out years, I have 'shifted' several times within our community, meeting a tremendous amount of personalities, but never have I gone back to those beginning days of drag show after drag show. This is just not part of my life as a gay man. I will run into the occasional drag performer at other events but I don't pry into their lives or want to get to know them personally as I realize they are still a part of our community, post internet.

    International Gay Bowling Organization
    http://igbo.org/


  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14389

    Nov 10, 2015 8:37 PM GMT
    I signed this petition Monday morning. It is time to permanently exclude the transgender crowd from our gay, lesbian, and bisexual community before they do more serious damage to our public image. Sexual orientation and gender questioning are totally unrelated to one another. We have absolutely nothing in common with these gender bending radicals.

    Right wing conservatives need to stop putting us in with these transgender radicals and realize that once these weirdos are excluded from our community, we will appear much more mainstream which would be a long overdue, enlightening, and pleasant surprise for conservatives.
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    Nov 10, 2015 9:45 PM GMT
    I'm really sick of homosexuality being tied to cross dressing, drag queens and hyper sexuality. I have homo feelings towards other guys, I want there to be clubs that don't have obnoxious impersonators or perverted niche nights every day. Maybe these places exist unbeknownst to me, but shouldn't the only difference between a straight club and a gay club be that you're allowed to hit on your own sex? or is porn and drag a package deal when you realize you like your own sex? Just curious.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14389

    Nov 10, 2015 9:54 PM GMT
    TO23 saidI'm really sick of homosexuality being tied to cross dressing, drag queens and hyper sexuality. I have homo feelings towards other guys, I want there to be clubs that don't have obnoxious impersonators or perverted niche nights every day. Maybe these places exist unbeknownst to me, but shouldn't the only difference between a straight club and a gay club be that you're allowed to hit on your own sex? or is porn and drag a package deal when you realize you like your own sex? Just curious.
    Thank you
    +2,000,000
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    Nov 11, 2015 3:12 AM GMT
    TO23 saidI'm really sick of homosexuality being tied to cross dressing, drag queens and hyper sexuality. I have homo feelings towards other guys, I want there to be clubs that don't have obnoxious impersonators or perverted niche nights every day. Maybe these places exist unbeknownst to me, but shouldn't the only difference between a straight club and a gay club be that you're allowed to hit on your own sex? or is porn and drag a package deal when you realize you like your own sex? Just curious.




    Exactly. But honestly it's gay men's own fault for foaming at the mouth over these ridiculous drag queens. It's always been difficult to find a gay bar that hasn't had some lame drag show as the only source of entertainment, as if that has anything to do with being gay either. But fags have been worshiping these circus freak looking creatures for decades so when the trannies were looking for a live host to feed from, obviously the gay community looked like the logical choice.
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    Nov 11, 2015 3:31 AM GMT
    Radd said
    TO23 saidI'm really sick of homosexuality being tied to cross dressing, drag queens and hyper sexuality. I have homo feelings towards other guys, I want there to be clubs that don't have obnoxious impersonators or perverted niche nights every day. Maybe these places exist unbeknownst to me, but shouldn't the only difference between a straight club and a gay club be that you're allowed to hit on your own sex? or is porn and drag a package deal when you realize you like your own sex? Just curious.




    Exactly. But honestly it's gay men's own fault for foaming at the mouth over these ridiculous drag queens. It's always been difficult to find a gay bar that hasn't had some lame drag show as the only source of entertainment, as if that has anything to do with being gay either. But fags have been worshiping these circus freak looking creatures for decades so when the trannies were looking for a live host to feed from, obviously the gay community looked like the logical choice.



    In 1993, 3 years after coming out, I remember starting clubbing, in those days, the club would show the video while we were on the dance floor. This video was ONLY shown in the gay clubs as Rupaul was known already in the drag circuit, coming out of that, I knew who he was, but only as Rupaul. It would be at least a decade later, probably when MTV's LOGO channel launched (2005) that drag for straight people became an acceptable thing. Again I ask, who watches Rupaul's drag show? This song was fun to dance to, at the time, but not living the life such as Priscilla Queen of the Desert icon_neutral.gif




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    Nov 11, 2015 3:38 AM GMT

    Followed by in 1995..........




  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14389

    Nov 11, 2015 8:00 PM GMT
    ELNathB said
    Radd said
    TO23 saidI'm really sick of homosexuality being tied to cross dressing, drag queens and hyper sexuality. I have homo feelings towards other guys, I want there to be clubs that don't have obnoxious impersonators or perverted niche nights every day. Maybe these places exist unbeknownst to me, but shouldn't the only difference between a straight club and a gay club be that you're allowed to hit on your own sex? or is porn and drag a package deal when you realize you like your own sex? Just curious.




    Exactly. But honestly it's gay men's own fault for foaming at the mouth over these ridiculous drag queens. It's always been difficult to find a gay bar that hasn't had some lame drag show as the only source of entertainment, as if that has anything to do with being gay either. But fags have been worshiping these circus freak looking creatures for decades so when the trannies were looking for a live host to feed from, obviously the gay community looked like the logical choice.



    In 1993, 3 years after coming out, I remember starting clubbing, in those days, the club would show the video while we were on the dance floor. This video was ONLY shown in the gay clubs as Rupaul was known already in the drag circuit, coming out of that, I knew who he was, but only as Rupaul. It would be at least a decade later, probably when MTV's LOGO channel launched (2005) that drag for straight people became an acceptable thing. Again I ask, who watches Rupaul's drag show? This song was fun to dance to, at the time, but not living the life such as Priscilla Queen of the Desert icon_neutral.gif




    I detest drag queens. They are a toxic cancer on the GLB community in as much the same way as these gender bending radicals. The sooner we permanently remove the T from our community, the sooner we will achieve 100% total acceptance from all segments of society.
  • cacaracol01

    Posts: 76

    Nov 11, 2015 9:38 PM GMT
    I don't see why this is even a question, they are a minority just like all of us on here and whether you like them or not, why push them out? I'm probably gonna get a lot of hate on here but this is the problem with some gays now days...they wanna talk about how straight people discriminate them and treat them like shit and throw a pity party but then turn around and do the same shit to others....in this case Transgenders...C'mon now!! Stop the nonsense...live life and let others live. Again, why is this even a question??
    Ok, I'm ready for the hate comments....take a number though!!!