Why "Freedom of AND from Religion" need to be clarified in the US Constitution

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 18, 2015 11:20 PM GMT
    These christian terrorists are just so over the top and out of control, its like they want World War III so bad so that fulfillment of some sick, perverted "prophecy" comes true.

    I call for a Constitutional Clarification of the First Amendment if we, as a country, are to keep protecting ALL religion(s). Its obvious the amendment is too vague and open to spinning interpretation such as these out of control Illuminati christians have been doing since the amendments inception.

    I am just so dam tired of them dragging the rest of us, "the 40% awakened ones" into their stupid religious war. Awake people! Awake! Pick your side, the good-light or the evil-dark. DO not be fooled by these trickster people that call themselves christian. There is nothing 'Christ like' about them. They actually hate America and are pushing for its destruction.

    If you only knew the power of their dark side. They are everywhere even where you least expect



    The New Republican War On Religious Freedom
    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/11/17/3722936/republicans-react-to-paris-by-declaring-war-on-religious-freedom/
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14354

    Nov 19, 2015 2:25 PM GMT
    Anytime you try to explain and clarify the First Amendment all the narrow minded bible thumping screwballs start wailing from the top of their lungs that America is a Christian nation-state founded on Christian values. They never accepted the historic fact that the founding fathers were Deists and not Christians.
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    Nov 19, 2015 4:04 PM GMT
    -there is some sort of fine line between religious freedom and religious rights. Up for debate but us citizens have no religious rights.

    -the GOP is throwing shit up on the wall to see what will stick. The entertainment value is high.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 19, 2015 4:08 PM GMT
    Here's your Christian Liberal:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/19/obama-church_n_4127979.html

    Whose he praying to, Allah:
    n-OBAMA-CHURCH-large570.jpg

    obama-cover-340x222.jpg

    Obama with Pastor Rick Warren:
    McCain+Obama+Attend+Campaign+Forum+Calif

    Obama with the Pope:
    pope-francis-obama.jpg?w=760&h=497&l=50&

    Obama with Billy Graham:
    360_obama_graham_alt_0425.jpg

    Obama with Presidential Advisor and Homophobe Reverand Al Sharpton:
    obama_sharpton.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 19, 2015 4:54 PM GMT
    You want to change the I Amdt. or any other part of the Constitution? There's a process for that, whichever way you want to go. Don't just do it unilaterally, like Obama's been doing for the past 8 years.
  • JackNNJ

    Posts: 1051

    Nov 19, 2015 5:18 PM GMT
    The notion that the Founders were "deists" has been oversold by historians. Of course they had an Enlightenment view of the faith, but ultimately their frame of reference was Christianity, as is ours today (and yes, that includes all of you who claim to be "atheists" - you can't escape the foundation of our modern world's morality and ethics).

    Taking just one example, for all of Jefferson's supposed agnosticism (even atheism (!), as his detractors bemoaned), he remained a deacon in his church until the end of his life. (He made it clear, however, that he didn't want a visit from a minister on his deathbed.)
  • JackNNJ

    Posts: 1051

    Nov 19, 2015 5:19 PM GMT
    mx5guynj saidHere's your Christian Liberal:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/19/obama-church_n_4127979.html

    Whose he praying to, Allah:
    n-OBAMA-CHURCH-large570.jpg

    obama-cover-340x222.jpg

    Obama with Pastor Rick Warren:
    McCain+Obama+Attend+Campaign+Forum+Calif

    Obama with the Pope:
    pope-francis-obama.jpg?w=760&h=497&l=50&

    Obama with Billy Graham:
    360_obama_graham_alt_0425.jpg

    Obama with Presidential Advisor and Homophobe Reverand Al Sharpton:
    obama_sharpton.jpg


    HAHAH Fat Al: "DEM GREEK HOMOS."
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 19, 2015 5:23 PM GMT
    JackNNJ saidThe notion that the Founders were "deists" has been oversold by historians. Of course they had an Enlightenment view of the faith, but ultimately their frame of reference was Christianity, as is ours today (and yes, that includes all of you who claim to be "atheists" - you can't escape the foundation of our modern world's morality and ethics).

    Taking just one example, for all of Jefferson's supposed agnosticism (even atheism (!), as his detractors bemoaned), he remained a deacon in his church until the end of his life. (He made it clear, however, that he didn't want a visit from a minister on his deathbed.)


    Very good points, and historically accurate; good post!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 19, 2015 6:19 PM GMT
    theantijock%20engage%20stalker%20reducti

    MGINSD said
    JackNNJ saidThe notion that the Founders were "deists" has been oversold by historians. Of course they had an Enlightenment view of the faith, but ultimately their frame of reference was Christianity, as is ours today (and yes, that includes all of you who claim to be "atheists" - you can't escape the foundation of our modern world's morality and ethics).

    Taking just one example, for all of Jefferson's supposed agnosticism (even atheism (!), as his detractors bemoaned), he remained a deacon in his church until the end of his life. (He made it clear, however, that he didn't want a visit from a minister on his deathbed.)


    Very good points, and historically accurate; good post!


    What a crock of shit.

    Which ethics did you originate? Those of subsidies and televangelism?

    So Christianity has a patent pending on morality and ethics, huh? Because we know how original is the Christ story, none of it stolen from the rest of the world, unlike the fortunes of the church which we all know was merely entrepreneurialism, unaided by tax free government help.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ethics
    ...The New Testament generally asserts that all morality flows from the Great Commandment...to love one's neighbor as oneself.


    lololol, yeah, you guys have been real good on that one lololol.

    So
    full
    of hypocritical shit.

    Meanwhile, back on topic, the founding fathers' intent has already been fully clarified...

    https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html
    Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
    The Final Letter, as Sent

    Gentlemen

    The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

    Th Jefferson
    Jan. 1. 1802.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 19, 2015 6:42 PM GMT
    No one is fooled by your selective and inaccurate re-emphasis of others' posts, No Name.

    What an unthinking, robot-brained tool you are. Go back and hide under your rock until some new truth rattles your miserable existence.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 19, 2015 8:12 PM GMT
    MGINSD saidNo one is fooled by your selective and inaccurate re-emphasis of others' posts, No Name.

    What an unthinking, robot-brained tool you are. Go back and hide under your rock until some new truth rattles your miserable existence.


    I can't decide which is your more dominant or endearing quality: fatness, stupidity, ugliness, pomposity or that you would align yourself with that jack shit piece of shit who I've had to re-put on ignore since I've seen it's returned in all its wipe his ass on everything glory. Yeah, you're quite the judge of character. lol. Now I might be wrong to call you a pathetic troll but that's my instinct. However, thanx to my USA-raised, Christian-founded ethics & morality, I'll just turn the other cheek and leave it to the collective wisdom of the forum to decide. I'd invite you to also turn the other cheek but by the looks of it there seems to be just the one that goes all the way around. Don't feel badly about that. It matches perfectly your comb-over. So if you could get your pudgy little fingers around it, around the concept of not being a scumbag for once in your fucking life, at least there'd be something to hold onto. See, all hope is not lost.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Nov 19, 2015 10:48 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidAnytime you try to explain and clarify the First Amendment all the narrow minded bible thumping screwballs start wailing from the top of their lungs that America is a Christian nation-state founded on Christian values. They never accepted the historic fact that the founding fathers were Deists and not Christians.


    ^^^ Exactly right. ^^^

    Moreover, there is considerable documentary evidence to prove well beyond a reasonable doubt that the U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation. The evidence is so overwhelming that one must question the honesty of those who insist otherwise. However, those who try to impose their beliefs onto others are best noted for their Machiavellian approach; they evidently believe that they are entitled to use any effective approach to support their positions regardless of whether they are true.

    Another thing these people do not understand is that by attempting to use draconian methods to impose their will onto others they are actually undermining their position. It is no accident that church membership and attendance in the U.S. is higher than in other prosperous countries. The reason is that we have, although somewhat imperfectly, kept church and state separate. In the countries which have not maintained separation of church and state, the people have become disgusted by the resulting evils and turned away from religion.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Nov 19, 2015 11:00 PM GMT
    JackNNJ saidThe notion that the Founders were "deists" has been oversold by historians. Of course they had an Enlightenment view of the faith, but ultimately their frame of reference was Christianity, as is ours today (and yes, that includes all of you who claim to be "atheists" - you can't escape the foundation of our modern world's morality and ethics).

    Taking just one example, for all of Jefferson's supposed agnosticism (even atheism (!), as his detractors bemoaned), he remained a deacon in his church until the end of his life. (He made it clear, however, that he didn't want a visit from a minister on his deathbed.)


    Of course it is inaccurate to say that the founders were deists; to presume that they all believed alike is nonsense. The fact is that with regard to belief, they were definitely not of one mind. However, some of them were deists. Even though they were not of one mind on belief, they were just about of one mind in their position that religion and government should be kept separate and that people should be free to choose their religious beliefs for themselves, or choose to have no religion at all.

    As to Jefferson, it is common for people to modify their beliefs for various reasons; most people do, at least to some extent. Therefore, it would make little sense to look at one of Jefferson's writings and assert that it represented what he believed for his entire life. Moreover I would not be surprised to find that there are church deacons who are agnostics.

    I suggest reading God and Government by rev. Barry Lynn, the executive director of "Americans United for the Separation of Church and State", an organization of which I am a member. In the book, the author does a very good job of covering various positions.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Nov 19, 2015 11:09 PM GMT
    Here is a excerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796:

    "Article 11.

    "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

    You can easy find the complete text of the treaty with a google search.
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    Nov 20, 2015 12:33 AM GMT
    FRE0 saidHere is a excerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796:

    "Article 11.

    "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

    You can easy find the complete text of the treaty with a google search.


    That same google search will also reveal how Tripoli and the other Barbary States repudiated this and other treaties w/ the US and other nations, reembarked on their pattern of piracy, and were only beaten into submission by our Navy after the War of 1812.

    Moreover, the first sentence was entirely true at the time, since there was no reason to suspect that the Musselmen of the late 18th century would become the jihadists of today. As is the rest of the quoted language: only non-religious pretexts would disrupt the harmony temporarily established, until those same Muslim-controlled states destroyed it by their own acts of violence carried out, like everything else, "in the name of Allah."
  • Hypertrophile

    Posts: 1021

    Nov 20, 2015 1:39 AM GMT
    JackNNJ saidThe notion that the Founders were "deists" has been oversold by historians. Of course they had an Enlightenment view of the faith, but ultimately their frame of reference was Christianity, as is ours today (and yes, that includes all of you who claim to be "atheists" - you can't escape the foundation of our modern world's morality and ethics).

    Taking just one example, for all of Jefferson's supposed agnosticism (even atheism (!), as his detractors bemoaned), he remained a deacon in his church until the end of his life. (He made it clear, however, that he didn't want a visit from a minister on his deathbed.)


    Right. Christianity predates everything. I forgot.

    Perhaps the reality is that the moral foundation that defined this nation as the founders wrote it down were common to most philosophies, including Christianity and secular humanism? You see nothing specifically Christian in any of the founding documents. You do see ideas that are direct descendants from Magna Carta, however.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2015 2:25 AM GMT
    Southbeach stretches to restore his powers of reasoning after losing the first few rounds to that little penis of his. He did manage to duct tape it to his pelvis and showed us all the pictures, speaking of good mental health. What a delightful moment online that was.

    foreskin-007.w529.h793.jpg
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    Nov 20, 2015 2:40 AM GMT
    I am looking at clarifying the constitution on religion from a purely historical perspective. Even though, all religion itself, is based in early paganism, which the specific christian religion didn't like.

    As explain historically in timeline, christians killed people themselves for not converting. The current Islamic State and its secret, old school christian handlers, never left the dark ages.

    My suggestion to clarify the constitution, first amendment, is to continue to protect ALL American people from the current sociopathic "one NWO religion" power trip christians want to impose on all its citizens in the form of lies and spin. The original intent of the founding fathers of separation. The purpose was protection from monopoly.

    If you understand paganism, then you should understand the origin of all religions, that includes christianity. Christianity wants to distant itself from paganism, problem is, it cant. What its actually done is to hide its own roots from the unsuspecting brainwashed public. We, as a country, need to clarify this fact so that people are using their free will when they pick their own religion and not have one, certain religion, pick and force people based on lies and spin.

    From the dark ages on, all Christianity ever wanted was power and control over "we the people"


    How many people have died in the name of Christ, Christianity and Catholicism?

    VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
    http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm


    Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

    As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end....


    Bfzl6oHCUAAnTvy.jpg




    Forced conversion
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

    A forced conversion is the religious conversion or acceptance of a philosophy against the will of the subject, often with the threatened consequence of earthly penalties or harm. These consequences range from job loss and social isolation to incarceration, torture or death. It is a form of religious cleansing

    Early Christianity was a minority religion in the Roman Empire and the early Christians were themselves persecuted during that time. After Constantine I converted to Christianity, it became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. Already under the reign of Constantine I, Christian heretics had been persecuted; beginning in the late 4th century AD also the ancient pagan religions were actively suppressed. In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted religion into one capable and sometimes eager to persecute.[2] There are many examples throughout the history of Christianity: during the Roman empire, in the Middle Ages, inquisitions in Spain and Goa, forced conversion of indigenous children, and against Hindus.

    End of Roman empire[edit]

    In 392 Emperor Theodosius I decreed that Christianity was the only legal religion of the Roman Empire, and forbidding pagan practices by law:

    It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans....The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative" (Codex Theodosianus XVI 1.2.).[3]

    Much of the Roman world, however, remained pagan for centuries.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2015 2:57 AM GMT
    Todays christians, usually the ones who hold political power, don't like to admit it but some still do practice their early paganism of witchcraft, unfortunately, many of these christians do not walk in the light, 'If you only knew the power of the dark side' icon_redface.gif



    Can I Be A Christian Wiccan or Witch?
    http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccantraditions/f/ChristianWicca.htm




  • JackNNJ

    Posts: 1051

    Nov 20, 2015 3:06 AM GMT
    FRE0 said
    JackNNJ saidThe notion that the Founders were "deists" has been oversold by historians. Of course they had an Enlightenment view of the faith, but ultimately their frame of reference was Christianity, as is ours today (and yes, that includes all of you who claim to be "atheists" - you can't escape the foundation of our modern world's morality and ethics).

    Taking just one example, for all of Jefferson's supposed agnosticism (even atheism (!), as his detractors bemoaned), he remained a deacon in his church until the end of his life. (He made it clear, however, that he didn't want a visit from a minister on his deathbed.)


    Of course it is inaccurate to say that the founders were deists; to presume that they all believed alike is nonsense. The fact is that with regard to belief, they were definitely not of one mind. However, some of them were deists. Even though they were not of one mind on belief, they were just about of one mind in their position that religion and government should be kept separate and that people should be free to choose their religious beliefs for themselves, or choose to have no religion at all.

    As to Jefferson, it is common for people to modify their beliefs for various reasons; most people do, at least to some extent. Therefore, it would make little sense to look at one of Jefferson's writings and assert that it represented what he believed for his entire life. Moreover I would not be surprised to find that there are church deacons who are agnostics.

    I suggest reading God and Government by rev. Barry Lynn, the executive director of "Americans United for the Separation of Church and State", an organization of which I am a member. In the book, the author does a very good job of covering various positions.


    Yeah, Barry Linn, the testicle-less one who pussed out on that clusterfuck of a hearing to allow Sandra Fluke to speak.

    No, I hold a master's degree in Intellectual History. I won't be plumbing the depths of Barry's great wisdom anytime soon.

    “Sworn on the Altar of God: A Religious Biography of Thomas Jefferson” (1996) is the best reading of Jefferson's religious thought; Gaustad is the go-to guy on all these matters.
  • JackNNJ

    Posts: 1051

    Nov 20, 2015 3:23 AM GMT
    Physiqueflex said
    JackNNJ saidThe notion that the Founders were "deists" has been oversold by historians. Of course they had an Enlightenment view of the faith, but ultimately their frame of reference was Christianity, as is ours today (and yes, that includes all of you who claim to be "atheists" - you can't escape the foundation of our modern world's morality and ethics).

    Taking just one example, for all of Jefferson's supposed agnosticism (even atheism (!), as his detractors bemoaned), he remained a deacon in his church until the end of his life. (He made it clear, however, that he didn't want a visit from a minister on his deathbed.)


    Right. Christianity predates everything. I forgot.

    Perhaps the reality is that the moral foundation that defined this nation as the founders wrote it down were common to most philosophies, including Christianity and secular humanism? You see nothing specifically Christian in any of the founding documents. You do see ideas that are direct descendants from Magna Carta, however.


    Too much to unpack here. But suffice to say that most people are ignorant of history and do not appreciate the absolute revolution that Christianity represented against the backdrop of the decaying, fatalistic Pagan world of the day.

    Be careful handling the Magna Carta. Our Western conception of individual rights sprang from Christian thought, that each person is individually accountable to God, but also enjoys individual freedoms as well - guilt for sin, as well as life's blessings, were no longer corporately and collectively experienced. This absolutely informed the thinking that went into that document.


    To observe this development in miniature, as it were, see The Mayflower Compact, and J. Edwards' sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," both important (and contrasting) documents essential for an understanding of the American intellectual tradition.

    Also an honorable mention to ancient Jewish thought, which gave us our present linear conception of time and history, as opposed to the pagan (and primitive) view of time as a spiral/cycle.

    Thomas Cahill is a great source, especially on the latter (caveat: while his [excellent] writing is florid and a bit too giddy, his conclusions and processes are sound).
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2015 8:47 AM GMT
    I'm inspired by recent events in the middle east. Why not form a militant Atheist State (let's call it AS) and drive out or kill everyone who believes in higher beings and other superstitions... Or, like the jews, claim (or buy) some land
    (an atheist "Zion").
    icon_twisted.gif

    But seriously though, I think it would be a better world if people were rescued from the superstitions of religion, and see religion for what it is, at its best and worst; philosophy, ethics, pre-scientific explanations of the universe, man made power tool/laws et.c.

    I would love to live in a society free from religion.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2015 2:55 PM GMT
    ^ Have you checked China? Not to be snarky but an overwhelming atheistic society like China is no utopia.
  • jeepguySD

    Posts: 651

    Nov 20, 2015 3:26 PM GMT
    woodsmen said^ Have you checked China? Not to be snarky but an overwhelming atheistic society like China is no utopia.


    True, the People's Republic of China is no utopia, but that has nothing to do with the State being officially atheist. It is the result of decades of authoritarian rule by a single party derived from a Maoist version of communism.

    Incidentally, there are many active, open, religions in China today: Christians (including Catholics, Orthodox, and protestant denominations), Buddhists, Taoists, and Muslims, among others.
  • Rowing_Ant

    Posts: 1504

    Nov 20, 2015 6:26 PM GMT
    I used this extract from a letter by Jefferson in a recent Service icon_biggrin.gif

    "no one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in it’s advances towards rational Christianity. when we shall have done away the incomprehensible jargon of the Trinitarian arithmetic, that three are one, and one is three; when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, reared to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus, when, in short, we shall have unlearned every thing which has been taught since his day, and got back to the pure and simple doctrines he inculcated, we shall then be truly and worthily his disciples: and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed purely from his lips, the whole world would at this day have been Christian. I know the religion-builders have so distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus, so muffled them in mysticisms, fancies and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so monstrous and inconcievable, as to shock reasonable thinkers, to revolt them against the whole, and drive them rashly to pronounce it’s founder an imposter. had there never been a Commentator, there never would have been an infidel."