saturated fats?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 07, 2015 8:53 AM GMT
    Can someone explain to me what the deal is with saturated fats? It used to be that they were thought to be bad for us but now people are saying that they're ok. My understanding is that when they were thought to be bad for us it was because they were lumping together all saturated fats with the bad trans fats. Now that we know that trans fats are the bad guys the saturated fats can stop hiding behind the curtains.

    Is that a generally correct assessment? Can anyone add anything or elaborate?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 07, 2015 10:48 PM GMT
    Saturated fats are solid at room temperature. Most health professionals recommend we limit our intake of saturated fats because they clog your arteries leading to heart problems and strokes. Trans fats are artificial fats that basically act like saturated fats in the body. Polyunsaturated fats like olive oil or peanut oil or flaxseed oil are healthier.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 07, 2015 11:57 PM GMT
    Russell J de Souza, assistant professor, Andrew Mente, associate professor, Adriana Maroleanu, research volunteer, Adrian I Cozma, medical student, Vanessa Ha, doctoral student, corresponding author Teruko Kishibe, information specialist, Elizabeth Uleryk, information specialist, Patrick Budylowski, research volunteer, Holger Schünemann, professor of medicine and department chair, Joseph Beyene, professor of biostatistics, and Sonia S Anand, professor of medicine and epidemiology saidContrary to prevailing dietary advice we claim that there is no excess cardiovascular risk associated with intake of saturated fat


    From "Intake of saturated and trans unsaturated fatty acids and risk of all cause mortality, cardiovascular disease, and type 2 diabetes: systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies"

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4532752/

    See also

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat

    Neither of the above address the potential issue of fully hydrogenated fats. Hydrogenation changes unsaturated fat to saturated fat. Partially hydrogenated fats are where the bad trans fats come from. Fully hydrogenated fats don't have trans fats.

    If you look at the ingredient lists for shortening and lard they contain hydrogenated fats, but the Nutrition Facts box lists 0 trans fats, so we know that they are fully hydrogenated. Some don't say fully hydrogenated like Crisco does, for example:

    SOYBEAN OIL, FULLY HYDROGENATED PALM OIL, PALM OIL, MONO AND DIGLYCERIDES, TBHQ AND CITRIC ACID (ANTIOXIDANTS).

    Whereas Armour lard says:

    Lard and Hydrogenated Lard, BHA, Propyl Gallate and Citric Acid Added to Help Protect Flavor.

    See also the trans fat entry on wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_fat
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 2:16 AM GMT
    Just like carbs can range from oats to sugar, saturated fats are not made equal. Are we talking saturated fats from animal sources? Industrialized products? Coconut?


  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 2:51 AM GMT
    Everything you know about saturated fat is a lie. Read Paleo diet for athletes.

    "If you’re wondering whether saturated fat may contribute to heart disease in some way that isn’t related to cholesterol, a large meta-analysis of prospective studies involving close to 350,000 participants found no association between saturated fat and heart disease. (icon_cool.gif A Japanese prospective study that followed 58,000 men for an average of 14 years found no association between saturated fat intake and heart disease, and an inverse association between saturated fat and stroke (i.e. those who ate more saturated fat had a lower risk of stroke). (9)"
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 4:06 AM GMT
    carbs kill.....fat's don't!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 4:52 AM GMT
    bachian saidJust like carbs can range from oats to sugar, saturated fats are not made equal. Are we talking saturated fats from animal sources? Industrialized products? Coconut?

    Why do you ask?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 4:56 AM GMT
    anotherphil saidthe now-known health risks of artificially hydrogenated trans fats seem to have contributed to this confusion.

    You're spouting gobbledygook. Re-read my second long post.

    Fats can either be partially hydrogenated or fully hydrogenated. The partially hydrogenated fats are the source of trans fats.

    They don't hydrogenate trans fats, they produce trans fats by partially hydrogenating unsaturated fats.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 5:07 AM GMT
    anotherphil saidYes, trans fats are trans fats because they have been hydrogenated. Prior to artificial hydrogenation they were not trans fats.

    You're still mangling things. What's being hydrogenated are unsaturated fats. And they are either fully hydrogenated which does not produce trans fats or they are partially hydrogenated which does produce trans fats.

    Simply saying "hydrogenated" without specifying whether it's full or partial hydrogenation perpetuates the misinformation and confusion.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 7:12 AM GMT
    I kinda don't care. I eat whatever and work it off at the gym. icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 7:46 PM GMT
    bachian saidAre we talking saturated fats from animal sources? Industrialized products? Coconut?

    Can you tell us what you know about each of them?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2015 7:47 PM GMT
    xrichx saidI kinda don't care. I eat whatever and work it off at the gym. icon_wink.gif

    I wonder how long it would take you to work off a few deep fried Oreos.   icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2015 6:30 AM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    xrichx saidI kinda don't care. I eat whatever and work it off at the gym. icon_wink.gif

    I wonder how long it would take you to work off a few deep fried Oreos.   icon_lol.gif

    At least 4 miles of running. icon_biggrin.gif
  • badbug

    Posts: 800

    Dec 09, 2015 4:08 PM GMT

    Saturated fats are likely fine, depending on their use.

    Something like soy is not good for cooking, and is more likely to already be damaged from extraction methods before you even cook with it.

    Coconut oils is more ideal for low temperature cooking and is less likely to be damaged from extraction methods.


    But essentially, it's complicated. Something you eat may not react the same in your body as it does in mine. Aspirin is great for most people, but some people it will kill.

    Same with a substance like creatine. Lots of people swear by creatine and think it's great....a good portion don't see much effect and a certain portion it does zero for.
    A large percentage of people, maybe 20 percent already have so much creatine in their blood and muscles that more creatine isn't going to help them.

    Morphine has this effect too. I am a low tolerance morphine person.....which means, i get fucked right up good from 1 or 2 tylenol 3's with 30 mg of codeine. Like 2 tylenol 3's and i am flying. Some people think tylenol 3's don't do anything and just regular tylenol, it depends on what your body does.

    My body, converts codeine into morphine with amazing effecieny for some reason(all opiates are converted into morphine in the body) . Something to do with receptors or genes or some shit. I can't remember what the mechanism of action is there...



    But anyways,

    That's why the science on diet always seems wonky. Cause it's what your body does that matters.



    So saturated fats still get a bad name because the fats they use for studies are prepared improperly from the get go and then used improperly given their properties. Example, feeding mice a bunch of rancid safflower oil and recording it has negative effects on them, seems to mean saturated fats are bad. But the oil was probably extracted at high temperatures, shipped exposed to oxygen, stored exposed to light and then fed to the mice. So instead of learning about saturated fats, you were learning about rancid saturated fats but didn't know it....and since mice are super sensitive, even a small amount of rancidity of the oils could have great effects on the outcome of the study.

    It's likely if you're consuming a diet high in saturated fats, you're getting them from oils that have been heated and less likely (until maybe 2-3 years ago) than it's from coconut oil.

    But even people using coconut oil are most likely heating it at too high a temperature.



    ...a lot of this shit is still very close to witchcraft. I am not even kidding. We like to think medicine is advanced and science is advanced.....but it's not when you actually get right down to it. It's pretty much just a lot of conjecture supported by popular opinion....it's the best we got and it's so much better than 50 years ago......but there is just so much that isn't known.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 10, 2015 4:40 AM GMT
    badbug saidblah blah blah

    Ugh, just wasted 5 minutes of my life reading a bunch of say nothing crap. Thanks.
  • badbug

    Posts: 800

    Dec 10, 2015 7:07 AM GMT

    go fuck yourself

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 11, 2015 12:17 AM GMT
    badbug saidgo fuck yourself

    And I'll use lard for lube. I think it works well but not everyone does; it's pretty much just a lot of conjecture supported by popular opinion.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 19, 2015 5:50 PM GMT
    Most of the studies that were done on fat decades ago were grouped together with sugar consumption. Fat and sugar is a bad combination but saturated fat is actually important for the body.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 19, 2015 7:43 PM GMT
    Radd saidMost of the studies that were done on fat decades ago were grouped together with sugar consumption. Fat and sugar is a bad combination but saturated fat is actually important for the body.

    I'm beginning to understand why you would think that getting a flu vaccination is a bad idea or that the Holocaust didn't happen.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 19, 2015 11:12 PM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    Radd saidMost of the studies that were done on fat decades ago were grouped together with sugar consumption. Fat and sugar is a bad combination but saturated fat is actually important for the body.

    I'm beginning to understand why you would think that getting a flu vaccination is a bad idea or that the Holocaust didn't happen.



    You are a fucking liar and an asshole. Please quote where I EVER said the Holocaust didn't happen. Oh wait....you can't because I never said such a ridiculous thing.

    What I stated about saturated fat is a fact. This is what started the bad press on saturated fat:

    “Saturated fat has been demonized ever since Ancel Keys’s landmark ‘seven countries’ study in 1970,” writes Aseem Malhotra in a British Medical Journal review appropriately called “Saturated fat is not the major issue.”

    As Malhotra and numerous other researchers point out, correlation is not causation, and Keys neglected to account for many factors that could also contribute to heart disease. Keys cherry-picked his data, conveniently excluding whatever didn’t fit his hypothesis. In fact, the countries he studied that had the highest rates of heart disease also were the countries with the highest intakes of sugar and refined carbohydrates. Was it the fat or the sugar? Turns out it was the sugar!

    Even though critics pointed out these and other fallacies in Keys’s work, the public bought into the saturated-fat-is-harmful myth, avoiding it like the plague for decades and choosing instead inflammatory vegetable oils and trans fats in fake foods like margarine.

    The truth becomes much more complicated. Some fats do raise cholesterol, whereas others lower cholesterol. Even when saturated fat does, the type of cholesterol becomes more important than cholesterol itself. Saturated fat does raise the LDL or bad cholesterol, but it also raises the good or HDL cholesterol. But sugar lowers HDL cholesterol. And it is the ratio of total to LDL cholesterol that is a far more important predictor of heart attacks than LDL cholesterol itself.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 20, 2015 1:08 AM GMT
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23674795

    Although early studies showed that saturated fat diets with very low levels of PUFAs increase serum cholesterol, whereas other studies showed high serum cholesterol increased the risk of coronary artery disease (CAD), the evidence of dietary saturated fats increasing CAD or causing premature death was weak. Over the years, data revealed that dietary saturated fatty acids (SFAs) are not associated with CAD and other adverse health effects or at worst are weakly associated in some analyses when other contributing factors may be overlooked. Several recent analyses indicate that SFAs, particularly in dairy products and coconut oil, can improve health. The evidence of ω6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) promoting inflammation and augmenting many diseases continues to grow, whereas ω3 PUFAs seem to counter these adverse effects. The replacement of saturated fats in the diet with carbohydrates, especially sugars, has resulted in increased obesity and its associated health complications. Well-established mechanisms have been proposed for the adverse health effects of some alternative or replacement nutrients, such as simple carbohydrates and PUFAs. The focus on dietary manipulation of serum cholesterol may be moot in view of numerous other factors that increase the risk of heart disease. The adverse health effects that have been associated with saturated fats in the past are most likely due to factors other than SFAs, which are discussed here. This review calls for a rational reevaluation of existing dietary recommendations that focus on minimizing dietary SFAs, for which mechanisms for adverse health effects are lacking.

    Other interesting reads:

    Dietary intake and the risk of coronary heart disease among the coconut-consuming Minangkabau in West Sumatra, Indonesia.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15563444

    A COCONUT EXTRA VIRGIN OIL-RICH DIET INCREASES HDL CHOLESTEROL AND DECREASES WAIST CIRCUMFERENCE AND BODY MASS IN CORONARY ARTERY DISEASE PATIENTS.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26545671
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 20, 2015 1:45 AM GMT
    bachian said...

    That makes sense to me with what people are now saying about saturated fats being ok (excluding the trans fats produced by partial hydrogenation). The sentence "The replacement of saturated fats in the diet with carbohydrates, especially sugars, has resulted in increased obesity and its associated health complications" is interesting and the prevalence of high fructose corn syrup is probably also involved in that.

    The remaining question I have is what about the saturated fats produced by full hydrogenation? Full hydrogenation does not produce trans fats, just saturated fats. It's a question for me mainly out of curiosity since the lard in the grocery store uses full hydrogenation, as does the shortening.

    It turns out that I have available "homemade" lard, if you want to call it that, by going to one of the local Mexican grocery stores that has a butcher in it; they all make and sell their own lard at the butcher counter. And on the shelves they also have the usual Armour lard in a box or tub. The Armour lard has a small amount of fully hydrogenated lard in it; "Armour Lard has .02% fully hydrogenated (zero % moisture) lard flakes added in the lard to make the end product more stable." See the review from budgiebaby on December 4, 2011.

    http://www.amazon.com/Armour-Lard-Carton-1-Pound-Pack/dp/B001SB5ZRS

    The Mexican lard from the butcher counter is a sort of tan color, and not solid (which isn't a problem for me since I keep it in the fridge, otherwise it will go rancid), and has a slight pork flavor since they render it at a higher temperature. In my opinion that's not a problem when frying meat but it may not be desirable when using it in baking (unless you're making a pie crust for a quiche or a chicken pot pie).

    This book is an interesting read (link goes to amazon): Fat: An Appreciation of a Misunderstood Ingredient, with Recipes
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 20, 2015 1:50 AM GMT
    Radd said
    You are a fucking liar and an asshole. Please quote where I EVER said the Holocaust didn't happen. Oh wait....you can't because I never said such a ridiculous thing.

    Yeah, you really fooled us with your story about "your friend" who doesn't believe the Holocaust happened.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 20, 2015 2:30 AM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    Radd said
    You are a fucking liar and an asshole. Please quote where I EVER said the Holocaust didn't happen. Oh wait....you can't because I never said such a ridiculous thing.

    Yeah, you really fooled us with your story about "your friend" who doesn't believe the Holocaust happened.



    You stupid prick....if I believed the Holocaust didn't happen I have the balls to just say it. I'm not exactly known here for being the shy type who's afraid to speak his mind. There are tons of photo and video evidence to prove it happened. If you could read you'd know this was the entire point of my thread.....I wasn't sure I could be friends with someone who believed such nonsense. Apparently you're drinking again. icon_rolleyes.gif

    And you simply dismissed what I said about saturated fats.....ya know.....the topic of this thread that you derailed into lies about the Holocaust?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 20, 2015 3:16 AM GMT
    Radd said
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    Radd said
    You are a fucking liar and an asshole. Please quote where I EVER said the Holocaust didn't happen. Oh wait....you can't because I never said such a ridiculous thing.

    Yeah, you really fooled us with your story about "your friend" who doesn't believe the Holocaust happened.
    You stupid prick....if I believed the Holocaust didn't happen I have the balls to just say it. I'm not exactly known here for being the shy type who's afraid to speak his mind. There are tons of photo and video evidence to prove it happened. If you could read you'd know this was the entire point of my thread.....I wasn't sure I could be friends with someone who believed such nonsense. Apparently you're drinking again. icon_rolleyes.gif
    And you simply dismissed what I said about saturated fats.....ya know.....the topic of this thread that you derailed into lies about the Holocaust?

    Bonaparts had the perfect response in that thread, "I am sorry, but he is an idiot, no wonder you like him."

    www.realjock.com/gayforums/4130049/