Do steroids make the ball of seduction fair?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 12, 2015 6:13 AM GMT
    Do you think the use of steroids for aesthetic purposes by non-athletes makes the ball of seduction MORE or LESS just?

    A few arguments for and against:

    - Steroids make it MORE just because they provide a competitive advantage to guys with unlucky genes

    - Steroids make it LESS just because guys with lucky genes may also use them, effectively canceling the aforementioned advantage

    - Steroids make it MORE just because even though the lucky ones may use them, they rarely do so due to the tortoise & the hare effect: the lucky ones are more likely to rest on their laurels and have a lesser incentive to face the risks of AAS use since they already enjoy for free some of the benefits that the unlucky ones would only achieve with AAS, if at all

    - Steroids make it LESS just because they distort our notion of what is natural, attainable and ordinary. As a result we became too picky and harsh on people with unlucky genes as if they were to blame for not achieving the results of guys with lucky genes on steroids, while at the same time giving undue praise to the latter. It more than makes the ball of seduction unjust - it makes it undanceable

    - Steroids make it MORE just because they are just one of several stops one can pull to compete. Knowledge of nutrition, knowledge of training, access to health services, financial latitude, privileged connections... all these concede competitive advantages to whoever possesses them and no one would defend that eating a proper bodybuilder diet is "unjust"
  • SilverRRCloud

    Posts: 874

    Dec 12, 2015 7:07 AM GMT
    It sure is a complex equation.icon_lol.gif

    In theory, we all admire super ripped bodies, regardless of how the dude got there.

    In practice, many guys would stop short of pursuing anything serious with a dude who went to such great lengths to acquire such extraordinary body. The reasoning goes on to say that super ripped dudes make great side affairs, and yeah, they can be amazing trophy boys, too. But a dude who focuses so much of his energy on merely looking like a Greek god in very advanced stages of weight training, must have shortchanged himself in other aspects of his life. Like in a dude who spent most of his life hitting a ball against wall...Awesome to look at, amazing to have sex with, but less so to date and enter a meaningful relationship with.

    Sure, all of the above is a crude generalization. But most of us have only a limited time at hands, and base our behavior on stereotypes that may or may not hold truth in each and every particular case.

    A dude who has an amazing body, on the other hand, and is NOT sweating it, but carries himself around naturally has the greatest chance on the dating market, if other aspects of his personality fit the image.

    A good bod is a prerequisite these days. But it ain't really the only thing that matters.

    SC
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 12, 2015 7:36 AM GMT
    Remember the adage: All's fair in love and war.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 12, 2015 2:47 PM GMT
    woodsmen saidRemember the adage: All's fair in love and war.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/realestate/16mort.html?_r=0

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/magazine/all-is-fair-in-love-and-twitter.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/realestate/16mort.html
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 12, 2015 3:20 PM GMT
    As a former competitive collegiate athlete, I don't use, and have never used, steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs, but I refuse to judge people who use them for aesthetic purposes. I do, however, negatively judge athletes who use them to gain an unfair advantage in sports competitions.
  • Oceans_of_Flo...

    Posts: 393

    Dec 12, 2015 3:40 PM GMT
    SilverRRCloud saidIt sure is a complex equation.icon_lol.gif

    In practice, many guys would stop short of pursuing anything serious with a dude who went to such great lengths to acquire such extraordinary body.


    Heavens to Betsy, have you been talking to the guys who didn't get approved to attend the ball of seduction outside?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 12, 2015 6:01 PM GMT
    @SilverRRCloud

    I totally agree. Even when we introduce tools to allow the genetically unlucky to compete and eventually reach an equal look to the lucky ones (supposedly making the game more equal), the underlying cost is forever unequal and this has important consequences.

    One personal example:

    I had to gain 60lbs just to attain a thin layer of muscles. This level of gains would make any 5'10 look huge. Sustaining all those muscles with low fat requires rigor from anyone, but would you tolerate such rigor coming from someone who looks quite normal? Many guys I would like to date do not.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 12, 2015 6:03 PM GMT
    woodsmen saidRemember the adage: All's fair in love and war.


    Ah, I love this! In a game of cheaters, cheating is part of the rules. icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 12, 2015 6:07 PM GMT
    @SilverRRCloud

    Another thing: The Little Mermaid tale addresses exactly that theme.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 12, 2015 6:21 PM GMT
    Some guys who have the mechanical look to them that suggest either steroids or extreme training is a bit gross to me actually. There is something about seeing a guy who has one defining characteristic that is attractive, like a nice chest, arms, back etc, and seeing that stand out body trait juxtaposed against another muscle that seems a bit less trained and natural, that I find endearing and attractive.

    Point blank, if you need to do something that is dangerous for your health to look a certain way, there is an underlined issue about your self esteem and sense of direction in life that needs attention, and no amount of nice muscles can compensate for that weakness when it surfaces in your personality.
  • SilverRRCloud

    Posts: 874

    Dec 12, 2015 7:28 PM GMT
    bachian said@SilverRRCloud

    I totally agree. Even when we introduce tools to allow the genetically unlucky to compete and eventually reach an equal look to the lucky ones (supposedly making the game more equal), the underlying cost is forever unequal and this has important consequences.

    One personal example:

    I had to gain 60lbs just to attain a thin layer of muscles. This level of gains would make any 5'10 look huge. Sustaining all those muscles with low fat requires rigor from anyone, but would you tolerate such rigor coming from someone who looks quite normal? Many guys I would like to date do not.


    Yup. Your math is pretty good here.icon_biggrin.gif

    To go the fairy tale world for a short reference: 'Every magic has its price!'

    It makes a lot of sense to never doubt this bit of wisdom.

    ---
    Enters the dating world, and it turns out that you have got what you wanted through application of very serious rigor, but that the goods you are carrying are not attractive enough in their totality for the guys you would want to date. When all's said and done, TO SOME EXTENT ONLY, you are back to square one. The magic is there but it does not work on the prince(s) you wish to date.

    ---
    This is where you temporarily leave the fairy tale kingdom, and enter into its present day earthly embodiment: marketing.

    Like it or not, the evolutionary theory claims that we have been endowed with higher intelligence in order to achieve successful partner selection, in turn facilitating the core engine of evolution: sexual selection.

    So, herein lies your challenge: you are a next-door-normal looking guy with a great, ripped physique. You want to monetize your hard-earned advantage on the dating market. (Hey, you really earned it. Why would be cashing on it any wrong?)

    You market pretty much everything either by frequency or by lowering the price.

    More likely than not, you do not want to give up on your aspirations to date someone who, at least in your eyes, belongs to the top league. You have not been going on through all of this trouble to start dating a neighborhood slouch who has little to show for himself, have you?

    Which brings us to the issue of frequency in marketing terms. This is where reality cedes ground to the individual perceptions. And this is where you need a new, albeit, very different kind of rigor.

    If you keep highlighting your gorgeous, ripped physique ONLY, the chances are that the guys in the top dating tier won't really be impressed too much. Gyms are pretty full these days, and a few guys out there are sporting very attractive physique. A huge plus in everyone's eyes, a necessity if you will, but not good enough for you and many other next-door type dudes to enter the top tier of the gay dating world.

    You want to project the best TOTAL image of yourself that you can. Neighborhood wanna-be-thugs will be mightily impressed by a ripped body showing from the overly too stressed clothes you got at the local branch of the Goodwill store. The top tier dudes whom you want to date? Nope. Not reallyicon_rolleyes.gif

    So, you invest some in your total, general overdo. Soon enough, you'll discover the powerful impact of very healthy looking radiant skin on the world around you. A ripped guy, well-dressed, with super-healthy complexion is so much more than just another no-name, no-individuality, neighborhood gym product. You have got this amazing, fab body. Make sure that you package it faultlessly.

    The last step you would want to take is to learn how to carry yourself. This is where most dudes fail, most of the times.

    Do NOT be on a mission. No one really likes being instrumental in achieving other people's plans. Learn to be comfortable in your own skin, and learn how to patiently lean back. Whereas you may not have the best genetic predisposition to successfully emulate the looks of a Greek god, you command iron discipline which is the most necessary ingredient of every success strategy. This matters supremely. This is the subtle message that you want to project first and foremost.

    Never speak about the rigor you have gone through, and will have to go through in order to stay this ripped. Start viewing it as a part of your daily routine. (How many dudes out there are complaining about the fact that they have to brush their teeth?) If directly questioned, throw the good ole', 'a guy has got to do, what a guy has got to do'. The moment you start giving away the details, the magic is gone.

    Be forthcoming but stop clearly short of being too eager to say or do or even meet anyone in particular. The whole idea of projecting yourself better than the rest of the guys out there is to make sure that they come to you, rather than have you come over to them.

    Stop clearly short of being overwhelming on any subject. It is good to be passionate about the things but magnetic people know how to tame their passion. If facing a very well-read, bright, and well-educated guy WITH ripped physique and an amazing projection, a few guys may get scared of being inferior, and subject to manipulation. This may send even a very qualified dude running for the hills. So, make sure that you keep your rhetoric in check.

    Yup. And a bit of good luck will help, too.icon_lol.gif

    SC





  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 802

    Dec 12, 2015 8:07 PM GMT
    DOMINUS saidAs a former competitive collegiate athlete, I don't use, and have never used, steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs, but I refuse to judge people who use them for aesthetic purposes. I do, however, negatively judge athletes who use them to gain an unfair advantage in sports competitions.


    Then why bother to judge at all?

    If coach tells you that you need "thus and thus" in order to be competitive and get a shot at the Pan Americans, the Worlds, or the Olympics--you are GOING to do it or be left behind. The opinion of the mainstream layperson be damned.

  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 802

    Dec 12, 2015 8:12 PM GMT
    "Do steroids make the ball of seduction fair?"

    No steroid use for me.

    As for others, some guys who use them DO develop incredible-looking bodies...but great bodies are not great PEOPLE to enjoy knowing and sharing time together with.
  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 802

    Dec 12, 2015 8:25 PM GMT
    bachian said
    I had to gain 60lbs just to attain a thin layer of muscles. This level of gains would make any 5'10 look huge.


    I hear you. At 6'7, my natural weight is 175-180...VERY thin. I played basketball. Had no natural strength but could compensate with some agility and jumping ability. In my late twenties I began to weight-train...moved from 180 to 220 in 18 months. People who had always known me were amazed at the change, but those meeting me at the new size weren't much impressed. 220 on a 6'7 body still is not much.

  • honestsweat

    Posts: 183

    Dec 12, 2015 10:48 PM GMT
    Live and let live.
    If he wants to juice, go for it. (Personally, I can't imagine spending that much money.)
    I'm not here to judge.
    Not everyone likes the Huge look.
    There are plenty of fish in the sea for all of us to find our preferred type. :-)
  • Sincityfan

    Posts: 409

    Dec 13, 2015 12:01 AM GMT
    Is this your way of coming out as a juicer?

    I like the stainless steel ones:
    Breville-800JEXL-Juice-Fountain-Elite-10

    Which brand are you?
  • Triggerman

    Posts: 528

    Dec 13, 2015 12:32 AM GMT
    Vexing question. I am against it in competitive sports. But not against it in every day life. It is a fact of life in every gym I have been in. And that has been quite a few. Guys juice and walk around like God's Gift. Most can figure it out. Maybe some do not. I just sit back and laugh. If a juicer does not think he is obvious to a real lifter, then what can you do? Anyone that has been around the lifting game can see it a mile away. Swollen muscles, protruding nipples, the small hump on the back of the neck. Dead give aways. But so what? It's like plastic surgery. If it makes someone feel better, I have no complaint.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 13, 2015 3:48 AM GMT
    @SilverRRCloud

    Imagine an ex-chubby guy who managed to look lean through hard work and discipline. The price of that achievement is a picky diet full of restrictions. He starts dating is a guy who has always been lean effortlessly. They both go eat out and his effortlessly lean date starts feeling annoyed that the ex-chubby has to be so picky about what he eats to the point of being patronizing: "Who do you think you are to need to be so selective on what you eat? I don't need all that work, I think you're full of shit. You and your lowly concerns..."

    As you suggested, there are diplomatic/marketing ways to work around that - but why should you? This brings us to another aspect of the question of this thread:

    Even if we introduce every trick in the book to allow unlucky genes guys to reach the level of the lucky ones if hard work is invested, does it make the game more playable or "fair" to everyone just because we reached equality in terms of looks?

    Maybe some divides are forever.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 13, 2015 5:55 AM GMT
    TO23 saidSome guys who have the mechanical look to them that suggest either steroids or extreme training is a bit gross to me actually. There is something about seeing a guy who has one defining characteristic that is attractive, like a nice chest, arms, back etc, and seeing that stand out body trait juxtaposed against another muscle that seems a bit less trained and natural, that I find endearing and attractive.

    Point blank, if you need to do something that is dangerous for your health to look a certain way, there is an underlined issue about your self esteem and sense of direction in life that needs attention, and no amount of nice muscles can compensate for that weakness when it surfaces in your personality.


    And, what study documents the health danger? For years, it's been known there is a remarkably IMPROVED out come with HIV patients, and other folks, who are "juiced." My own cardiology team recommend I maintain my competitive level status. According to the American Heart Association, if you're juiced, you're 57% LESS likely to have an emergent cardiovascular event. A European study documents those same results. The study was done in 2014, FYI, and was done with the AHA, and the American Society of Urologists, and accepted by JAMA, and endorsed by The American College of Cardiologists. Would you care to post citations for your claim?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 13, 2015 6:00 AM GMT
    bachian said
    woodsmen saidRemember the adage: All's fair in love and war.


    Ah, I love this! In a game of cheaters, cheating is part of the rules. icon_lol.gif
    Interesting interpretation. Mine is that for love you must do what is required to win it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 13, 2015 6:04 AM GMT
    Whether it's penicillin, vaccinations, PREP, or whatever, science is very much part of our lives. Testosterone is something that makes us men, and is good medicine that allows us to perform athletically, and mentally, a level we never could otherwise. It slows aging to a crawl. In the picture next to me, I'm 55 years old; in my 42'nd year of lifting, and upon the advice of my cardiology team maintain nearly a show ready physique year round. My cholesterol is 115. My LDL is 85. My HDL is around 20, but, that's expected. I redline cardio twice a week. I am the poster child for an active lifestyle and middle age bodybuilding. Just two days after 3 CABG, my cardiologist walked into the room and asked me to be show ready that year (June 13, 2013). Nine months later, I was show ready. Some of you are nothing short of completely clueless about this topic and have no basis to speak either via experience, or science. Shut the fuck up, and READ. It's been known for years...the many benefits to your heart, body, and mind, of being "juiced." No agency (medical, nor legal) have EVER recommended their control. In fact, quite the opposite. Just folks with some romantic notion that while we use science in every other part of our lives, only certain science should apply to our physical and mental performance. Androgens are a strong anti-depressant, and don't just promote better cardiac risk profiles, slow aging, improve body composition and performance, but, also, promote a strong sense of well being. HRT is a billion dollar plus a year business for good reason. It improves lives, and health. READ before you blow smoke out your ass. Science says it's good medicine. We take antibiotics to get rid of a bacterial infection. Folks take androgen not just as an act of vanity, but, a love of fitness, the strong anti depressant effect, and the very pronounced affect that it has on aging. I've watched my lipid panel and performance for 30 years. I've studied this beyond belief. I've spoken, at length, with medical experts. Some of you are beyond ignorant, and do a huge disservice to spread misinformation. Testosterone is good medicine, and saves lives..but..not just that...it improves the quality of life markedly.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 13, 2015 6:08 AM GMT
    woodsmen said
    bachian said
    woodsmen saidRemember the adage: All's fair in love and war.


    Ah, I love this! In a game of cheaters, cheating is part of the rules. icon_lol.gif
    Interesting interpretation. Mine is that for love you must do what is required to win it.


    If you're competing for love...you're not doing it right.
  • SilverRRCloud

    Posts: 874

    Dec 13, 2015 6:33 AM GMT
    bachian said@SilverRRCloud

    Imagine an ex-chubby guy who managed to look lean through hard work and discipline. The price of that achievement is a picky diet full of restrictions. He starts dating is a guy who has always been lean effortlessly. They both go eat out and his effortlessly lean date starts feeling annoyed that the ex-chubby has to be so picky about what he eats to the point of being patronizing: "Who do you think you are to need to be so selective on what you eat? I don't need all that work, I think you're full of shit. You and your lowly concerns..."

    As you suggested, there are diplomatic/marketing ways to work around that - but why should you? This brings us to another aspect of the question of this thread:

    Even if we introduce every trick in the book to allow unlucky genes guys to reach the level of the lucky ones if hard work is invested, does it make the game more playable or "fair" to everyone just because we reached equality in terms of looks?

    Maybe some divides are forever.


    If you chose to date a very ripped physique you'll have to put up with your BF's dietary limitations. This comes with the territory. Genes or no genes, you can be naturally lean, but no one comes around with a natural washboard stomach. (This bit has to be earned somehow, doesn't it?) If a dude cannot put up with what is logically needed, and uses that kind of language on you, he has already disqualified himself totally.

    The game has never meant to be either (more) playable or "fair" at all. It has always meant to be a play only.

    If you look around, you'll notice that practically everyone around commands some sort of talent. I am not talking music, painting or dance in particular. I am talking in terms of an augmented ability in any specific field. True, some dudes come with 'good genes', have naturally lean, almost athletic looking bodies, and very desirable physical traits in terms of your sexual selection catalogue. And some do not.

    None of the talents that you have been endowed with ALONE will grant you any success in any field of human endeavour unless you invest everything else that is needed.

    This is the great, silent, immovable equalizer.

    SC

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 13, 2015 6:52 AM GMT
    Here's something about bodybuilders:
    1. Discipline
    2. Focus
    3. Patience
    4. Persistence
    5. Studios
    6. Often confident
    7. Sensitive
    8. Able to adapt to new ideas.
    9. Typically indifferent to social trends, or less concerned.
    10. Better leadership skills.

    In 2007, Congress commissioned the GAO to study AAS users. What they found out is this:
    1. They make more money.
    2. They are higher positions of power.
    3. They are in better health.
    4. They are more educated in both health, and other areas.
    5. They are sick less.
    6. They are rarely depressed.
    7. They are independent thinkers with critical thinking skills and aren't easily swayed by propaganda (e.g. drug misinformation.
    8. Are rarely criminals.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 13, 2015 8:52 AM GMT
    At the end of the day it makes the playing field more even because it gives some guys a choice they might not have had or believed they never had. Not everyone wants a muscular guy. Not everyone wants to be muscular. Guys who would have a hard time gaining muscle at the gym can more easily do it with some pharmaceutical help. They still have to put in the hard work and dedication to get what they want. They will become bigger and some guys will want them more and others will want them less.