Economic Stimulus War

  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Feb 04, 2009 3:30 AM GMT
    I'm always amazed at just how adept the Republicans are at playing the game of politics. A third of the economic stimulus bill in Congress was added pretty much totally for their benefit simply as a "Please give us about ten to twenty votes in the Senate so we can call this a bipartisan initiative." Yet that's apparently not enough. The counterproposal of a bill half the size which is nearly entirely tax cuts is the most ridiculous attempt at true compromise that I've ever seen.

    The Democrats have to start playing the game better and low-balling it by giving the Republicans nothing and make them work for every single concession.
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    Feb 04, 2009 3:34 AM GMT
    The Senate Majority Leader, Democrat Harry Reid, is an incompetent boob. President's Obama's initiatives are going to fail with this fool in charge of the Senate. The Dems should have replaced him at the beginning of this new Congress, but now they're stuck with him. Gawd help the President, gawd help the Dems, gawd help the US.
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    Feb 04, 2009 3:46 AM GMT
    Research shows that tax cuts do not have the same stimulus on the economy as spending does. But, the GOP, helmed by Mitch McConnel (whose skin looks like that of a chicken) seems unwilling to make researched-based choices that help both the country and their constituents. They would rather damage the Democratic party to help theirs than help America.

    That said, Snowe, Collins, Specter, and Murkowski have each voted with the Democrats more than some Democrats have this congress (70%-91% of the time). With the exception of Murkowski Obama won each of their states by huge margins. Also, Specter is up for reelection and he will lose if he can't tie himself to economic recovery. Crunching some numbers, I don't expect a filibuster to happen or the bill to not pass.

    But Jesus, McConnell is a fuckwit.
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    Feb 04, 2009 4:22 AM GMT
    Last I checked, there were lots of Democrats who weren't exactly embracing the stimulus bill (aka The Spending Bill) either.


  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Feb 04, 2009 4:34 AM GMT
    JockSnack2008 saidLast I checked, there were lots of Democrats who weren't exactly embracing the stimulus bill (aka The Spending Bill) either.


    11 out of 240?

    Yeah. That's a real mass defection right there.
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    Feb 04, 2009 4:36 AM GMT
    Only 11 out of 240 Democrats wouldn't support this horrible sham of a stimulus package?

    Nuff said
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Feb 04, 2009 4:51 AM GMT
    JockSnack2008 saidOnly 11 out of 240 Democrats wouldn't support this horrible sham of a stimulus package?

    Nuff said


    Yeah. It basically means that your first post on this thread was just wrong.

    Politically, the handful of blue dog Democrats who voted against this packagae are made up for by Republican governors who are now getting behind the stimulus package - like Crist and Arnold.
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    Feb 04, 2009 5:35 AM GMT
    The stimulus package idea stinks. I get it. It's more debt, bigger government.

    Only problem is, failure to do it and we are looking at a loooonnnggg downturn. Customers need to get the idea that they can afford to buy stuff again.

    For those who moan about the stimulus package, what is the plan? Let the market go as it may? How do you see that playing out?

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    Feb 04, 2009 6:15 AM GMT
    I have an uneasy feeling about this whole "stimulus" thing. Pump an extra trillion dollars into federal and state government? The bureaucrats can absorb that in six months and make it vanish without a trace. That's what they do.
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    Feb 04, 2009 9:50 AM GMT
    Paul Krugman is hardly a shill for the Republicans. Here's a link to what he thinks of the bill:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/02/opinion/02krugman.html?_r=1

    And here's Bob Herbert, also not exactly a shill for the Republicans:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/opinion/03herbert.html

    The truth is that so far this is a disaster.

    I hasten to add that the Republicans are so irresponsible and such idiots that even now the Democrats look good by comparison.

    But at the moment I think the Obama administration is clueless and drifting. They better get their act together on this and soon.


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    Feb 04, 2009 4:38 PM GMT
    The "stimulus" bill started with partisan power-drunk Pelosi excluding Republicans from the legislative process. She, the cadaverous Harry Reid and Emperor Unity/No-Earmarks have now achieved a stimulus -- they are unifying and energizing Republicans. The Emperor's honeymoon may be over thanks to a blatantly flawed and corrupt bill.

    The more that Americans learn about the bill, the more they oppose it. A recent poll showed that 54% now reject it.

    Only about ten percent of the "stimulus" money is spent in 2009. A huge percentage of the money is payoffs to unions and other Democrat special interest groups. Billions for Acorn? The bill is a crap sandwich only Democrats believe in.

    The economy is showing small signs of turning around. If the country is lucky this bill will be debated into obsolescence. Hats off to Rep. Boehner and Sen. McConnell.

    jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazo3X
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    Feb 04, 2009 6:05 PM GMT
    styrgan saidI'm always amazed at just how adept the Republicans are at playing the game of politics.


    Pelosi, the third-most powerful person in America (Heaven Help Us) announces that 500 million Americans lose their jobs each month the stimulus package isn't passed.



    In my day she would manage a string of brassiere shops, nothing more (Michael Savage).
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    Feb 04, 2009 6:09 PM GMT
    Jock-

    WHAT IS YOUR POINT?????????????????????

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    Feb 04, 2009 6:14 PM GMT
    I am more concerned about the "Buy American First" idea which is the 21st centuries version of "Smoot-Hawley". Fortunately Obama wants to water it down. The idea came from that hotbed of good ideas the United Steel Workers. They say they are targeting China not Canada, but who cares? Targeting any economy in this environment is equivalent to playing Russian roulette.

    The stimulus package will get passed but it will unlikely have much impact until next year, especially if red tape ties up the infrastructure programs. The tax cuts will be useful if it allows people to get out of debt faster. It is of questionable use in the long-term if it allows them to spend more but also incur more debt.

    Then there is the issue of the ballooning federal deficit and debt. Eventually the USA will have to either cut spending or raises taxes or both, and then you will hear the congressmen squeal like pigs!
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Feb 04, 2009 7:17 PM GMT
    They should start by just rolling back the Reagan Tax Cuts


    Every country in the world just about .... and us included until Ronnie screwed us
    Taxes the upper 10% at a 50% tax rate
    Reagans cuts cut it back to 17%

    As far as the democrats go ... if Reid doesn't tell the republicans to take a hike
    this stimulus plan is going to be too little too late

    ....and that's exactly what the republicans are shooting for
    They are looking for the economy to tank so they can point a finger
    even though their awful policies of the last 30 years have brought us here in the first place
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    Feb 05, 2009 12:03 AM GMT
    OHhiker saidThe stimulus package idea stinks. I get it. It's more debt, bigger government.



    Sounds like a continuation of the Bush policies. icon_wink.gif

    Ducky44 saidJock-

    WHAT IS YOUR POINT?????????????????????



    He's trying to demonstrate that Republicans don't spell any better than Democrats, e.g., Emporer, brassier shops.

    Seriously, jockfever, if you have any valid points to make (and I'm not sure you do), the ranting in which you're indulging makes you sound irrational.

    Well, I suppose I do agree with you Pelosi and Reid are fools (not that you actually said that, but perhaps you'd agree), but I really don't get why you're referring to Obama as "Emporer [sic] Unity/Mr. No-Earmarks." It was McCain who kept going on (with demonstrable inaccuracy) about eliminating earmarks.

    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/05/mccains_fantasy_war_on_earmark.html

    GQjock saidThey should start by just rolling back the
    Reagan Tax Cuts


    Every country in the world just about .... and us included until Ronnie screwed us
    Taxes the upper 10% at a 50% tax rate
    Reagans cuts cut it back to 17%

    As far as the democrats go ... if Reid doesn't tell the republicans to take a hike
    this stimulus plan is going to be too little too late

    ....and that's exactly what the republicans are shooting for
    They are looking for the economy to tank so they can point a finger
    even though their awful policies of the last 30 years have brought us here in the first place


    Hear, hear!

    One thing that never got much comment in the Obama-McCain debates was McCain's statement that the United States has the second-highest corporate-tax rate among the major industrialized countries and Obama wanted to raise it. Quel horreur!

    Strictly speaking, the U.S. does have the second-highest rate, but the government collects the third- or fourth-lowest percentage of corporate taxes as a percentage of GDP.

    Indeed, some think it might be a pretty good idea to lower the rate but eliminate loopholes. Here are some articles discussing this:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/13/MNC4129OFL.DTL

    http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/09/irish_corporate_taxes_bring_it_on.php
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Feb 05, 2009 12:17 AM GMT
    This thread, post-Vespa, has gotten extremely off track.

    I'm not interested in debating the general idea of the stimulus plan. Personally, I think the best option our government has right now is to invest in infrastructure, and our education and health care systems. Doing so not only provides a stop-gap that prevents the economy from continuing to spin out of control, but will also ensure long-term prosperity as well.

    As I have stated on other forums, I think the bill in its current form has a good number of flaws, but when do you ever get a perfect piece of legislation?

    The point is that in a divided government, sometimes parties are not best served by being so accomodating. The Democrats have made multiple concessions without being asked to, and I am amazed at the inability of any Republicans to come on board with this. Do they not understand that they are in the minority, that they are not going to get to write and direct legislation, and that they should now be totally content that the Democrats are willing to include them a third of the way?
  • SeaMichael

    Posts: 138

    Feb 05, 2009 12:23 AM GMT
    Styrgen -

    I completely agree. The size and general idea of the package (infrastructure and tax cuts) was clear before the election, and the GOP got their asses handed to them. I understand the idea behind bipartisanship, but sometimes you gotta draw the line (as Speaker Pelosi clearly did).

    On the other hand, I can see where having some GOP support would be nice, in the event the plan failed. That way the blame could go around icon_smile.gif

    Regardless, the package does need to get passed, and the feds need to do something. The capitalist purists are just going to have to take it up the ass with pants on for awhile. Even Greenspan admitted that pure capitalism wasn't as good an idea as he advocated.
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    Feb 05, 2009 12:40 AM GMT
    mookie5381 said
    Regardless, the package does need to get passed, and the feds need to do something. The capitalist purists are just going to have to take it up the ass with pants on for awhile. Even Greenspan admitted that pure capitalism wasn't as good an idea as he advocated.


    Alan Greenspan is a moron. "Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholders’ equity, myself included, are in a state of shocked disbelief."

    I know very little about economics, but I could have told him that years ago. It really astounds me that supposed experts like Greenspan were so surprised to learn things that should have been obvious to everyone. Talk about being driven by ideological blindness. Here's a bit from a Congressional hearing:

    Henry Waxman: You had the authority to prevent irresponsible lending practices that led to the subprime mortgage crisis. You were advised to do so by many others. Do you feel that your ideology pushed you to make decisions that you wish you had not made?”

    Greenspan: Yes, I’ve found a flaw. I don’t know how significant or permanent it is. But I’ve been very distressed by that fact.
    ______

    I suppose it is to Greenspan's credit that he rejected placing most of the blame on FannieMae and FreddieMac and instead placed the blame on Wall Street (as well, at least to some extent, on the insane policies that he advocated).

    Sorry for continuing the off-topic trend, but that's what happens in lots of threads.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Feb 05, 2009 12:42 AM GMT
    It just seems like the Republicans are masters of navigating the minority. Remember in 2006, when the Dems got their asses handed to them on the Iraq legislation. I'm sick of the Democrats being abused because of their own attempts at bipartisanship.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Feb 05, 2009 12:44 AM GMT
    mookie5381 said
    On the other hand, I can see where having some GOP support would be nice, in the event the plan failed. That way the blame could go around icon_smile.gif

    I like your handle btw..

    If anything, the Democrats have really coverd their bases by loweing expectations of what they can hope to accomplish.

    Although, I think they will do quite well actually. Unlike the TARP mess.
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    Feb 05, 2009 12:52 AM GMT
    I think the Democrats should forget about bi-partisanship and pass everything that America wants passed before the 2010 election. Healthcare, infrastructure repair, serious mass transit investments, government regulation and scrutiny of large corporations (particularly if those companies are getting taxpayer bailouts), the closing of tax loopholes, and equal rights for us. The Republicans had it their way for many, many years so let them whine and be the exclusionary party that says "NO" for a while. Get on it Democrats.
  • SeaMichael

    Posts: 138

    Feb 05, 2009 12:52 AM GMT
    styrgan saidIt just seems like the Republicans are masters of navigating the minority. Remember in 2006, when the Dems got their asses handed to them on the Iraq legislation. I'm sick of the Democrats being abused because of their own attempts at bipartisanship.


    Well, it's fairly easy. The whole idea of the Democratic Party being a bunch of pussies is true. I'm not saying this because I'm jaded or anything, in fact I'm on the Executive Board of my local Democratic Party. I'm saying it because it's true.

    The GOP is good at pushing policies when they're in the majority because, for the most part, they have become pretty much the same as each other. That is, the vast majority of Republicans are pro-life, anti-gay, pro-gun, pro-death penalty, anti-taxes, anti-government, isolationists who are hawks with international policy (which is contradictory to isolationism, but funny).

    The Democratic Party has a big problem in that we are all over the map. I happen to live in a very liberal legislative district, yet our Exec Board is all over the map. Myself - I'm fervently pro-choice, pro-equal rights, pro-death penalty, pro-gun, pro-smart taxes, and lukewarm at best to affirmative action. All of these are areas that my Party takes a stand on, and I'm not with my Party on all of the issues.

    This makes it difficult to form a united front. Plus, it's more often that Democrats bolt the party when they're pissed than Republicans. There is a loyalty issue.

    I personally believe that we can and should have a strong leadership (hence my love of Speaker Pelosi), while still allowing some dissent (the 11 votes against the package) to prove that we allow all voices. At the same time, all voices need to get in sync, and make compromises to get shit done.
  • SeaMichael

    Posts: 138

    Feb 05, 2009 12:53 AM GMT
    dfrw saidI think the Democrats should forget about bi-partisanship and pass everything that America wants passed before the 2010 election. Healthcare, infrastructure repair, serious mass transit investments, government regulation and scrutiny of large corporations (particularly if those companies are getting taxpayer bailouts), the closing of tax loopholes, and equal rights for us. The Republicans had it their way for many, many years so let them whine and be the exclusionary party that says "NO" for a while. Get on it Democrats.


    They can't. Fucking filibusters!!!
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    Feb 05, 2009 12:55 AM GMT
    That's right mookie!

    Republicans didn't care at all about Democrats in 1994, so Democrats need to grow a spine and get with it.