Accidents are piling up for driverless cars and here's why

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 18, 2015 3:34 AM GMT
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-18/humans-are-slamming-into-driverless-cars-and-exposing-a-key-flaw

    "They obey the law all the time, as in, without exception. This may sound like the right way to program a robot to drive a car, but good luck trying to merge onto a chaotic, jam-packed highway with traffic flying along well above the speed limit. It tends not to work out well. As the accidents have piled up -- all minor scrape-ups for now -- the arguments among programmers at places like Google Inc. and Carnegie Mellon University are heating up: Should they teach the cars how to commit infractions from time to time to stay out of trouble?"
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 18, 2015 9:32 PM GMT
    They say that a robotic car has never been at fault in an accident. However, a good driver is able to anticipate hazardous situations and usually avoid them. In fact, the ability to do that is more important than having the skill to execute racing-type maneuvers. Merely never having an at-fault accident is not good enough.

    A couple times I had to break the law to avoid an accident. As I was stopping my motorcycle at a red light, I heard tires squealing behind me. I had to release my brakes and go through the red light to avoid being hit from behind. Would a robot, which is programmed never to break the law, have done that?

    Another time, when the road was icy, I saw a car coming up behind much too fast. To avoid an accident, I made a right turn when the light was red; that was where turning right on red was not legal.

    Of course it rarely happens that one must break the law to avoid an accident, but it does happen. More often, one must take action which is not illegal to avoid an accident. For example, on a multi-lane road, if one is overtaking a car on the right but that car is rapidly gaining on the car in front of it, one better consider the possibility that that car may change lanes without warning. Would a robot be able to do that? Could a robot anticipate that a car may exit a freeway from the wrong lane?
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    Dec 18, 2015 11:51 PM GMT
    FRE0 saidThey say that a robotic car has never been at fault in an accident. However, a good driver is able to anticipate hazardous situations and usually avoid them. In fact, the ability to do that is more important than having the skill to execute racing-type maneuvers. Merely never having an at-fault accident is not good enough.

    A couple times I had to break the law to avoid an accident. As I was stopping my motorcycle at a red light, I heard tires squealing behind me. I had to release my brakes and go through the red light to avoid being hit from behind. Would a robot, which is programmed never to break the law, have done that?

    Another time, when the road was icy, I saw a car coming up behind much too fast. To avoid an accident, I made a right turn when the light was red; that was where turning right on red was not legal.

    Of course it rarely happens that one must break the law to avoid an accident, but it does happen. More often, one must take action which is not illegal to avoid an accident. For example, on a multi-lane road, if one is overtaking a car on the right but that car is rapidly gaining on the car in front of it, one better consider the possibility that that car may change lanes without warning. Would a robot be able to do that? Could a robot anticipate that a car may exit a freeway from the wrong lane?


    "Of course it rarely happens that one must break the law to avoid an accident"

    I don't know about "rarely".

    Thinking LA and merging onto just about any freeway during off hours or hour. I've long believed the safest way for everyone while merging onto a fairly crowded interstate, but one moving along, is merge at 10 mph or so faster than the flow of traffic you're trying to merge with. So if the flow of traffic is 80 mph be close to 90 mph to merge. That way you can pick your place to merge and you won't accordion the traffic you're trying to merge with.

    On the older freeways such as the Hollywood or the Pasadena with the short on-ramps, that becomes a bit of a challenge. So as we used to say in racing school ... 'don't lift'
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Dec 18, 2015 11:58 PM GMT
    If you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.




    icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 19, 2015 12:09 AM GMT
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.



    It's one of the great pleasures to me. I love driving. Hopefully, next year I can do a couple cross countries.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Dec 19, 2015 12:54 AM GMT
    I think that autonomous cars will be a good thing. There is a large population of people who cannot drive for many reasons and they are dependent on public transport, taxi and medical services when they do need to get somewhere.

    But until every car on the road is either autonomous, or has enough automatic safety features built in to keep people from doing unsafe and illegal things, fully autonomous vehicles should be restricted to lower speed zones, like 40mph and under.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 19, 2015 12:57 AM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    FRE0 saidThey say that a robotic car has never been at fault in an accident. However, a good driver is able to anticipate hazardous situations and usually avoid them. In fact, the ability to do that is more important than having the skill to execute racing-type maneuvers. Merely never having an at-fault accident is not good enough.

    A couple times I had to break the law to avoid an accident. As I was stopping my motorcycle at a red light, I heard tires squealing behind me. I had to release my brakes and go through the red light to avoid being hit from behind. Would a robot, which is programmed never to break the law, have done that?

    Another time, when the road was icy, I saw a car coming up behind much too fast. To avoid an accident, I made a right turn when the light was red; that was where turning right on red was not legal.

    Of course it rarely happens that one must break the law to avoid an accident, but it does happen. More often, one must take action which is not illegal to avoid an accident. For example, on a multi-lane road, if one is overtaking a car on the right but that car is rapidly gaining on the car in front of it, one better consider the possibility that that car may change lanes without warning. Would a robot be able to do that? Could a robot anticipate that a car may exit a freeway from the wrong lane?


    "Of course it rarely happens that one must break the law to avoid an accident"

    I don't know about "rarely".

    Thinking LA and merging onto just about any freeway during off hours or hour. I've long believed the safest way for everyone while merging onto a fairly crowded interstate, but one moving along, is merge at 10 mph or so faster than the flow of traffic you're trying to merge with. So if the flow of traffic is 80 mph be close to 90 mph to merge. That way you can pick your place to merge and you won't accordion the traffic you're trying to merge with.

    On the older freeways such as the Hollywood or the Pasadena with the short on-ramps, that becomes a bit of a challenge. So as we used to say in racing school ... 'don't lift'


    Many people fail to use adequate power when merging, including people with very high powered cars. That can create problems for people behind them too.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 19, 2015 1:00 AM GMT
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.




    icon_rolleyes.gif


    Except that they've made flying a very unpleasant experience compared with what it once was. If there were more consideration for passengers' comfort and convenience perhaps more people would fly.

    A trip that could be made in one day with a car can easily take three or more days by train, that is if it is even possible.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 19, 2015 1:01 AM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.



    It's one of the great pleasures to me. I love driving. Hopefully, next year I can do a couple cross countries.


    It's been many years since I've taken a long trip by car. I've taken long trips by motorcycle instead.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 19, 2015 1:13 AM GMT
    FRE0 said
    freedomisntfree said
    FRE0 saidThey say that a robotic car has never been at fault in an accident. However, a good driver is able to anticipate hazardous situations and usually avoid them. In fact, the ability to do that is more important than having the skill to execute racing-type maneuvers. Merely never having an at-fault accident is not good enough.

    A couple times I had to break the law to avoid an accident. As I was stopping my motorcycle at a red light, I heard tires squealing behind me. I had to release my brakes and go through the red light to avoid being hit from behind. Would a robot, which is programmed never to break the law, have done that?

    Another time, when the road was icy, I saw a car coming up behind much too fast. To avoid an accident, I made a right turn when the light was red; that was where turning right on red was not legal.

    Of course it rarely happens that one must break the law to avoid an accident, but it does happen. More often, one must take action which is not illegal to avoid an accident. For example, on a multi-lane road, if one is overtaking a car on the right but that car is rapidly gaining on the car in front of it, one better consider the possibility that that car may change lanes without warning. Would a robot be able to do that? Could a robot anticipate that a car may exit a freeway from the wrong lane?


    "Of course it rarely happens that one must break the law to avoid an accident"

    I don't know about "rarely".

    Thinking LA and merging onto just about any freeway during off hours or hour. I've long believed the safest way for everyone while merging onto a fairly crowded interstate, but one moving along, is merge at 10 mph or so faster than the flow of traffic you're trying to merge with. So if the flow of traffic is 80 mph be close to 90 mph to merge. That way you can pick your place to merge and you won't accordion the traffic you're trying to merge with.

    On the older freeways such as the Hollywood or the Pasadena with the short on-ramps, that becomes a bit of a challenge. So as we used to say in racing school ... 'don't lift'


    Many people fail to use adequate power when merging, including people with very high powered cars. That can create problems for people behind them too.


    That's why I said

    "I've long believed the safest way for everyone"
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14360

    Dec 19, 2015 1:51 AM GMT
    FRE0 said
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.




    icon_rolleyes.gif


    Except that they've made flying a very unpleasant experience compared with what it once was. If there were more consideration for passengers' comfort and convenience perhaps more people would fly.

    A trip that could be made in one day with a car can easily take three or more days by train, that is if it is even possible.
    That is thanks to our neglect and disinvestment of our country's railroad infrastructure which was at one time the greatest in the world. icon_sad.gif
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Dec 19, 2015 7:04 AM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.



    It's one of the great pleasures to me. I love driving. Hopefully, next year I can do a couple cross countries.



    On this we can agree.



    icon_cool.gif
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 19, 2015 9:30 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    FRE0 said
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.




    icon_rolleyes.gif


    Except that they've made flying a very unpleasant experience compared with what it once was. If there were more consideration for passengers' comfort and convenience perhaps more people would fly.

    A trip that could be made in one day with a car can easily take three or more days by train, that is if it is even possible.
    That is thanks to our neglect and disinvestment of our country's railroad infrastructure which was at one time the greatest in the world. icon_sad.gif


    Absolutely right!

    When I was a kid, travel by train was more common than travel by air. I remember overnight train trips in Pullman sleeper cars. It was a very comfortable way to travel. The dining cars, with white table cloths and napkins, always had good food. Travelers always dressed nicely with coats and ties. Getting dressed while lying down in a Pullman booth was somewhat challenging.

    When there was a polio epidemic in Manitowoc, WI, where we lived, my parents sent me to suburban Baltimore to stay with my mother's sister until the epidemic ended. My father accompanied me in the 400 to Chicago, put me on the Capital Limited, and paid a porter to keep an eye on me and see to it that I got off at the right station since I was only nine years old. The only problem I had was that I had not yet learned how to tie a tie so someone had to help me with that after I got dressed in the morning. Other than that, I hadn't needed any help.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 19, 2015 9:49 PM GMT
    Here in California - the innovation of selfless driving cars- the DMV has put a dent on the launch of the car being completely without a driver -California regulators say self-driving cars of the future must have a licensed driver behind the wheel, at least until the technology is proven safe.


    http://abc7news.com/technology/california-dmv-self-driving-cars-must-have-driver-behind-wheel/1125077/
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 20, 2015 4:47 PM GMT
    rnch said
    freedomisntfree said
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.



    It's one of the great pleasures to me. I love driving. Hopefully, next year I can do a couple cross countries.



    On this we can agree.



    icon_cool.gif


    Speaking of 'love of driving' post some pics of your 65 Ford.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Dec 20, 2015 4:53 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    rnch said
    freedomisntfree said
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.



    It's one of the great pleasures to me. I love driving. Hopefully, next year I can do a couple cross countries.



    On this we can agree.



    icon_cool.gif


    Speaking of 'love of driving' post some pics of your 65 Ford.



    IDK how to do that on this site.


    icon_redface.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 20, 2015 5:56 PM GMT
    rnch said
    freedomisntfree said
    rnch said
    freedomisntfree said
    rnch saidIf you don't want to drive a car on the open road take a train or plane.

    It's just THIS simple.



    It's one of the great pleasures to me. I love driving. Hopefully, next year I can do a couple cross countries.



    On this we can agree.



    icon_cool.gif


    Speaking of 'love of driving' post some pics of your 65 Ford.



    IDK how to do that on this site.


    icon_redface.gif


    If you have them hosted on photobucket, flickr, smugmug or any of the other 10 pic hosting sites or so that I'm aware, you can copy the url and post here. You have to play around a bit with the 'img' and 'url' buttons above to figure out how to do it. It may take two or three tries. Photobucket is real easy. I just click the html button within Photobucket and:

    photo a9edb703-adef-4050-911b-7dbdb8b71014.jpg

    Sometimes you have to resize the pics a bit to get them to fit as is obvious above. 800 width is about the widest that will fit.

    The above was at 850. The below is 820 wide so this is pretty much the limit.

    photo 9c0489eb-82da-4efd-ac81-c7ddc0d846ae.jpg
  • Apparition

    Posts: 3529

    Dec 21, 2015 4:53 AM GMT
    there is going to be ONE VERY EASY way to make all cars AUTONOMOUS. Level crossings on the freeway. Humans wont be able to do it. There will be no STOPPING. With the crumbling infrastructure, cities will just not be able to fix bridges and flyovers. Automated cars will do level crossings at high speed, zoom, zoom, zoom. Never having to stop, they will adjust speed slightly, communicate with the other traffic and it will be like there never was any cross traffic at all.
    THAT will be so much cheaper, that it is inevitable. Human driving will be gone in our lifetimes.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 21, 2015 6:54 AM GMT
    Apparition saidthere is going to be ONE VERY EASY way to make all cars AUTONOMOUS. Level crossings on the freeway. Humans wont be able to do it. There will be no STOPPING. With the crumbling infrastructure, cities will just not be able to fix bridges and flyovers. Automated cars will do level crossings at high speed, zoom, zoom, zoom. Never having to stop, they will adjust speed slightly, communicate with the other traffic and it will be like there never was any cross traffic at all.
    THAT will be so much cheaper, that it is inevitable. Human driving will be gone in our lifetimes.


    To clarify, what do you mean by "level crossings"?
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Dec 21, 2015 4:55 PM GMT
    Apparition saidthere is going to be ONE VERY EASY way to make all cars AUTONOMOUS. Level crossings on the freeway. Humans wont be able to do it. There will be no STOPPING. With the crumbling infrastructure, cities will just not be able to fix bridges and flyovers. Automated cars will do level crossings at high speed, zoom, zoom, zoom. Never having to stop, they will adjust speed slightly, communicate with the other traffic and it will be like there never was any cross traffic at all.
    THAT will be so much cheaper, that it is inevitable. Human driving will be gone in our lifetimes.




    In what alterative universe are you spending wayyyyy too much of your time icon_question.gif





    icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 21, 2015 5:44 PM GMT
    rnch said
    Apparition saidthere is going to be ONE VERY EASY way to make all cars AUTONOMOUS. Level crossings on the freeway. Humans wont be able to do it. There will be no STOPPING. With the crumbling infrastructure, cities will just not be able to fix bridges and flyovers. Automated cars will do level crossings at high speed, zoom, zoom, zoom. Never having to stop, they will adjust speed slightly, communicate with the other traffic and it will be like there never was any cross traffic at all.
    THAT will be so much cheaper, that it is inevitable. Human driving will be gone in our lifetimes.




    In what alterative universe are you spending wayyyyy too much of your time icon_question.gif



    I see it's getting close to time to ramp up the lobbying efforts of SEMA and I'm sure Jay will also help.

    That would put us collector car folks off of the road.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 21, 2015 9:54 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    Apparition saidthere is going to be ONE VERY EASY way to make all cars AUTONOMOUS. Level crossings on the freeway. Humans wont be able to do it. There will be no STOPPING. With the crumbling infrastructure, cities will just not be able to fix bridges and flyovers. Automated cars will do level crossings at high speed, zoom, zoom, zoom. Never having to stop, they will adjust speed slightly, communicate with the other traffic and it will be like there never was any cross traffic at all.
    THAT will be so much cheaper, that it is inevitable. Human driving will be gone in our lifetimes.


    To clarify, what do you mean by "level crossings"?


    Probably he means grade crossings.
  • Apparition

    Posts: 3529

    Dec 22, 2015 12:08 AM GMT
    I mean that there will be no raised highways/ cloverleaf(s) so traffic doesnt have to come to a "red light" or stop sign. The robots will take the intersection at normal speed from both directions by good synchronized timing.

    with the massive cost of raised highways that are crumbling now, being unfeasible they will be replaced by simple intersections like little roads, with no signalling needed, as all the cars will move as one unit and just "miss" each other as they barrel through, like cross traffic never existed.Picture a stopsign-less crossing at 100mph where cars zoom across each others paths never hitting because of synchronized spacing.


    10649824_10153710213910115_7927345549128

    Automated cars will move as one, with almost no unpredictability, there will be no "weaving in and out" you will hit the highway at top speed and the cars will move as a grid 6 inches apart at 100mph. There will be no sudden breaking, or speeding, or jostling for position, it will be organized. There will be no "not letting people in" or assholery that you see now. It will all be automatic.


    kinda like this (but less chaotic and more grid like) and at highway speeds


    http://www.fastcodesign.com/3035870/filmmaker-creates-worlds-most-terrifying-traffic-intersection
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4865

    Dec 23, 2015 11:32 PM GMT
    Apparition saidI mean that there will be no raised highways/ cloverleaf(s) so traffic doesnt have to come to a "red light" or stop sign. The robots will take the intersection at normal speed from both directions by good synchronized timing.

    with the massive cost of raised highways that are crumbling now, being unfeasible they will be replaced by simple intersections like little roads, with no signalling needed, as all the cars will move as one unit and just "miss" each other as they barrel through, like cross traffic never existed.Picture a stopsign-less crossing at 100mph where cars zoom across each others paths never hitting because of synchronized spacing.


    10649824_10153710213910115_7927345549128

    Automated cars will move as one, with almost no unpredictability, there will be no "weaving in and out" you will hit the highway at top speed and the cars will move as a grid 6 inches apart at 100mph. There will be no sudden breaking, or speeding, or jostling for position, it will be organized. There will be no "not letting people in" or assholery that you see now. It will all be automatic.


    kinda like this (but less chaotic and more grid like) and at highway speeds

    http://www.fastcodesign.com/3035870/filmmaker-creates-worlds-most-terrifying-traffic-intersection


    Let us hope that there won't be any breaking. It is not good to have anything break. It would be especially bad if the computer broke since that could cause mis-timing and a collision.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 24, 2015 12:05 AM GMT
    FRE0 said
    Apparition saidI mean that there will be no raised highways/ cloverleaf(s) so traffic doesnt have to come to a "red light" or stop sign. The robots will take the intersection at normal speed from both directions by good synchronized timing.

    with the massive cost of raised highways that are crumbling now, being unfeasible they will be replaced by simple intersections like little roads, with no signalling needed, as all the cars will move as one unit and just "miss" each other as they barrel through, like cross traffic never existed.Picture a stopsign-less crossing at 100mph where cars zoom across each others paths never hitting because of synchronized spacing.


    10649824_10153710213910115_7927345549128

    Automated cars will move as one, with almost no unpredictability, there will be no "weaving in and out" you will hit the highway at top speed and the cars will move as a grid 6 inches apart at 100mph. There will be no sudden breaking, or speeding, or jostling for position, it will be organized. There will be no "not letting people in" or assholery that you see now. It will all be automatic.


    kinda like this (but less chaotic and more grid like) and at highway speeds

    http://www.fastcodesign.com/3035870/filmmaker-creates-worlds-most-terrifying-traffic-intersection


    Let us hope that there won't be any breaking. It is not good to have anything break. It would be especially bad if the computer broke since that could cause mis-timing and a collision.


    A hacker's Wet dream.