For What WILL Bart Ehrman Hold Jesus Responsible vs What Believers Did?

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    Jan 02, 2016 3:07 AM GMT
    Bart Ehrman:
    What is clear is that Christians took over the idea of sacrifice and applied it to Jesus. It very early came to be thought that Jesus death was “for” others, “for the sake” of his followers, even “in place of” those who were true worshippers of God. Very soon after Jesus’ death and after his followers became convinced of his resurrection, Jesus’ death came to be thought of as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of others, a death that would allow others to be put into a restored relationship with God who would no longer be alienated from them because of their sins.

    Steefen:
    To take over the idea of sacrifice, one has to take over the Temple where it was practiced and put a stop to it there. We only have AD70 for that, which was not very soon after Jesus’ death.

    Now, you say Christians took over the idea of sacrifice and applied it to Jesus: it was not Jesus. If that is the case, not only did Christians comb the Hebrew Bible to build their case, they must have put words into Jesus’ mouth. The Last Supper, then, would not be the words of Jesus but the words of Christians. You are not holding Jesus responsible for any of this?
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    Jan 03, 2016 4:28 PM GMT
    Bart D. Ehrman: Is this how God showers his favor on someone, by having [Jesus] humiliated and tortured to death? Clearly, for [Christians], Jesus was not being punished for something he did wrong, for any sin(s) that he himself committed. What sins? But if he didn’t die for his own sins, the only conclusion could be that he must have died for the sins of other people. Christians began, early on (again, before Paul) to think that Jesus’ death was a sacrifice for others.

    Steefen: Why was Jesus humiliated and tortured to death? For the Temple Authorities and the keepers of Judaism, Jesus was being punished for something he did wrong. Jesus, a religious reformer, knocked out a High Holy Day of Judaism. That High Holy Day was and is Yom Kippur whose central themes are atonement and repentance. Jesus said, "Your sins are forgiven; go, and sin no more." When one sinned and repented, one gave a sacrifice on Yom Kippur (kippur means atone in Hebrew). One also fasted, prayed, and spent holy time in a holy place (the synagogue) God was getting sacrifices for sin. But, Jesus took that away from God.

    A recitation of the sacrificial service of the Temple in Jerusalem traditionally features prominently in both the liturgy and the religious thought of the holiday. Specifically, the Avodah ("service") in the Musaf prayer recounts in great detail the sacrificial ceremonies of the Yom Kippur Korbanot (sacrificial offerings) that are recited in the prayers but have not been performed for 2,000 years, since the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans.

    Jesus disrupted the sacrifices to God by turning over the table of the moneychangers. God was getting sacrifices also for the commemoration of the Exodus from Egypt. Jesus' disruption of the commemoration was a sacrilege and a sin. Jesus' request that he be remembered by eating his body and drinking his blood, literally or metaphorically also was a sin against God (Leviticus, 17: 10).

    While the Temple in Jerusalem was standing (from Biblical times through 70 C.E.), the Kohen Gadol (High Priest) was mandated by the Torah to perform a complex set of special services and sacrifices for Yom Kippur to attain Divine atonement, the word "kippur" meaning "atone" in Hebrew. These services were considered to be the most important parts of Yom Kippur because through them the Kohen Gadol made atonement for all Jews and the world.

    God had already ordained Divine atonement for all Jews and non-Jews. So, we must disagree with you, Dr. Ehrman, Christians were quite aware of Yom Kippur: Jesus' death was not a sacrifice for the sins of others, Jews and the rest of the world. Jesus and Christians came up with their soteriology usurping the will of God with the will of another God.