From a liberal on a liberal website: I’m Running Out of Ways to Defend Islam

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    Jan 09, 2016 6:03 PM GMT
    You can't get more liberal than this site, but this view will likely remain in the minority among the left as the US repudiates this ideology and votes for Trump.

    http://www.forwardprogressives.com/im-running-ways-defend-islam/

    During a discussion about this topic, I asked a liberal friend of mine to name one Islamic state where:
    * Homosexuals are allowed to be openly gay.
    * Women are given equal rights.
    * Other religions are allowed to freely practice their faith and are not oppressed.

    He couldn’t do it. And I’ll be honest with you, I can’t either. Because to my knowledge, there’s not a single Islamic nation in or around the Middle East that meets all three of those criteria.

    A comment to the article that puts things in perspective:

    Richard Pearman · Boss at Pixelpalaces
    Generally the ignorant people are those who defend Islam, not those who attack it. Have you read the Koran? It's basically a declaration of war against all other religions as well as teaching that women are inferior to men and men have a right to have 4 wives and beat them. Then there's the Ahadith which contain many other objectionable things, like trees and rocks calling out to Muslims saying, "there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him!" The reason that there are so many honor killings, terrorist acts etc. committed by Muslims is that their scriptures tell them to do it. Also Islam is rotten with intellectual problems, like claiming that the sun sinks into a muddy puddle at night, so Muslim's can't win proper arguments with non-Muslims who know what they're talking about. Therefore they just shout "Racist" and "Islamophobe" and become violent and hope others are stupid enough to be sympathetic to them.
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    Jan 09, 2016 6:06 PM GMT
    This does not mean all Muslims are bad. Some are peaceful and don't devoutly follow their religion, just as some Catholics don't abstain from sex until marriage. But make no mistake, it is the power of a religion that elicits this behavior, or as we like to say from our perspective, "radicalizes" them. Ignoring the root problem prevents ultimately solving it.
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    Jan 09, 2016 10:19 PM GMT
    Liberals have become auto-pilot contrarians. Look at Pelosi supporting ACA not even " knowing what's in it" because it was contrary to Republican thinking. Sometimes it works other times you get into the Adams family problem; that is contrary to a sketchy norm is sometimes a very bad thing.
  • Apparition

    Posts: 3516

    Jan 09, 2016 11:17 PM GMT
    socalfitness said

    During a discussion about this topic, I asked a liberal friend of mine to name one Islamic state where:
    * Homosexuals are allowed to be openly gay.
    * Women are given equal rights.
    * Other religions are allowed to freely practice their faith and are not oppressed.

    He couldn’t do it.


    france, sweden, ...
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    Jan 09, 2016 11:18 PM GMT
    I don't like the way many people who are Muslim treat gays or women or religious minorities in their community. But I can say the same about Christians too. Forget that little tidbit?

    The most distressing thing about all of this is how a lot of people, even in a community like this, beat the war drum of hate out of naked fear and ignorance.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Jan 09, 2016 11:19 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidYou can't get more liberal than this site, but this view will likely remain in the minority among the left as the US repudiates this ideology and votes for Trump.




    If I gave this thread any serious consideration, it ended with the first sentence. Many Americans may or may not agree with the Muslim religion, but even if one doesn't, it certainly doesn't mean they would vote for a nutcase like Trump.
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    Jan 09, 2016 11:20 PM GMT
    javelin7 saidI don't like the way many people who are Muslim treat gays or women or religious minorities in their community. But I can say the same about Christians too. Forget that little tidbit?

    The most distressing thing about all of this is how a lot of people, even in a community like this, beat the war drum of hate out of naked fear and ignorance.

    Moral equivalence is part of the liberal disease.
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    Jan 09, 2016 11:23 PM GMT
    HndsmKansan said
    socalfitness saidYou can't get more liberal than this site, but this view will likely remain in the minority among the left as the US repudiates this ideology and votes for Trump.

    If I gave this thread any serious consideration, it ended with the first sentence. Many Americans may or may not agree with the Muslim religion, but even if one doesn't, it certainly doesn't mean they would vote for a nutcase like Trump.

    I shouldn't give your post any serious consideration, but to explain. Much of Trump's popularity comes from the disdain many feel towards the disease of political correctness. One aspect of political correctness is the refusal of the left to make the clear and obvious association between Islam and violent activities. See the thread on the Philly mayor for an additional example.
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Jan 09, 2016 11:44 PM GMT
    hey, it's not even the disease of political correctness

    it's the fake, phony bullshit of housing and junk bond bubbles (built under Clinton/Bush), then the fake, phony auto loan and student loan bubble (built under Obama)

    the Congress and Executive Branch in bed with the banks

    fake wars by Bush AND Obama in Iraq, Afganistan and Libya

    40 years of stagnant and declining real wages

    after 58 years of being first a Republican, then a Democrat, and now an Independent, I'm done with all the crooked, political ass clowns

    I'm voting for Trump (I really don't care how many people he deports) or Bernie (scary maybe, but he has balls)

    Hillary? not a chance in hell

    you want the same crap you've seen the past 20 years, go ahead, vote for Clinton
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    Jan 10, 2016 12:04 AM GMT
    Apparition said

    france, sweden, ...


    braeburn, cortland, ... two varieties of apples that i have just decided to post up in lowercase because someone might have to dig for reasons why i vaguely posted them up.
    but i'll try and expand on your choice of countries.


    sweden: rapes in sweden have skyrocketed by 1,472% since the mid 70's.
    The country is now known as the rape capital of the west.
    77.6 percent of the country’s rapists are identified as “foreigners” (and that’s significant because in sweden, “foreigner” is generally synonymous with “immigrant from muslim country”)


    france: a couple of days ago there was a terror attack in the bataclan theater were at least 130 people squirted blue jelly everywhere and didnt get back up straight away and 350 people got blue jelly on their hands and had to run out screaming.


    before you or some 'liberal' responder mentions norway;
    recently 100% (percent) of rapes there were non-european immigrants raping possibly racist white women. thats ok right?

    an apple a day keeps the rapist away or maybe that's a gun not an apple?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 10, 2016 12:08 AM GMT
    As someone who considers himself a liberal, I don't defend Islam and never have. I don't defend any religion; firstly, because I'm an atheist and, secondly, because I believe all religion, particularly of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim variety, is anachronistic and generally pernicious.

    What I do not agree with is attacking a person, simply because they describe themselves as "a Christian", "a Jew", "a Muslim" or a follower of any other religion, provided they are not actively involved in expressing or promoting hatred or intolerance. If you like, it's my atheist version of, "hate the sin (i.e. religion) and not the sinner" (i.e. the believer).
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 10, 2016 12:23 AM GMT
    tj85016 saidhey, it's not even the disease of political correctness

    it's the fake, phony bullshit of housing and junk bond bubbles (built under Clinton/Bush), then the fake, phony auto loan and student loan bubble (built under Obama)

    the Congress and Executive Branch in bed with the banks

    fake wars by Bush AND Obama in Iraq, Afganistan and Libya

    40 years of stagnant and declining real wages

    after 58 years of being first a Republican, then a Democrat, and now an Independent, I'm done with all the crooked, political ass clowns

    I'm voting for Trump (I really don't care how many people he deports) or Bernie (scary maybe, but he has balls)

    Hillary? not a chance in hell

    you want the same crap you've seen the past 20 years, go ahead, vote for Clinton




    I think that is Trump's appeal. He will stir up the shit. Presidents should not be making any laws, that is the duty of congress. A weak but ramble rouser president is what we need right now.
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    Jan 10, 2016 12:45 AM GMT
    Alpha13 saidI think that is Trump's appeal. He will stir up the shit. Presidents should not be making any laws, that is the duty of congress. A weak but ramble rouser president is what we need right now.

    I don't think Trump would be weak. I know some like to say he is not specific, but he has put forth a tax plan. He refuses to say what his strategy would be against adversaries. Makes sense not only to not show your cards, but depends on situations and what advisors say. Speaking of advisors, he would have the wisdom to have good ones, versus the disaster currently in the White House (Former SecDef: Obama’s National Security Advisers Are Totally Naive http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/08/former-secdef-obamas-national-security-advisers-are-totally-naive/ )
  • IgnatiusReill...

    Posts: 158

    Jan 10, 2016 1:18 AM GMT
    I just finished reading the article "I'm Running Out of Ways to Defend Islam," and, I am loathe to negatively comment because I don't want to accuse every Muslim as being complicit with ISIS but, I have to agree with the journalist.

    Even here in the United States an imam is not seen or heard immediately condemning atrocities publicly in the press committed in the name of Islam. If an imam had condemned the violence why wasn't the press reporting his response to the violence committed in the name of his faith?

    The beheadings of journalists who had been taken as hostages along with relief workers in the region were condemned by government leaders and religious leaders, but I did not see imams. It does concern me deeply because silence conveys indifference or approval, and leaves the populace with a gnawing fear that further violence in the Mideast, and perhaps on our shores, is an assurance.

    I acknowledge that there have been commentaries condemning violence which have received only local coverage. The Somali community in Minneapolis is one such community. I am interested to see if the same is true in metropolitan areas where there are large concentrations of Muslims, such as Detroit. Have Muslim leaders voiced their opposition to violence committed in the name of their faith in your community?
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14310

    Jan 10, 2016 1:20 AM GMT
    HndsmKansan said
    socalfitness saidYou can't get more liberal than this site, but this view will likely remain in the minority among the left as the US repudiates this ideology and votes for Trump.




    If I gave this thread any serious consideration, it ended with the first sentence. Many Americans may or may not agree with the Muslim religion, but even if one doesn't, it certainly doesn't mean they would vote for a nutcase like Trump.
    Trump is definitely not a nutcase like you falsely claim. Granted that he is pandering to the tea party on certain issues but that doesn't change the true fact that Mr. Trump is a far superior candidate to that decrepit, corrupt, power hungry whore, Hillary. Anyone who thinks that the hapless Hillary ho is the most qualified candidate needs to be required to pay a $50,000.00 poll tax or they cannot vote in November. Hillary is clearly the most incompetent candidate and is totally unfit for the White House. Her past record of endless failures as a U.S. Senator and a Secretary of State are valid reasons NOT to vote for this bumbling bitch.
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    Jan 10, 2016 1:22 AM GMT
    IgnatiusReilly saidI just finished reading the article "I'm Running Out of Ways to Defend Islam," and, I am loathe to negatively comment because I don't want to accuse every Muslim as being complicit with ISIS but, I have to agree with the journalist.

    Even here in the United States an imam is not seen or heard immediately condemning atrocities publicly in the press committed in the name of Islam. If an imam had condemned the violence why wasn't the press reporting his response to the violence committed in the name of his faith?

    The beheadings of journalists who had been taken as hostages along with relief workers in the region were condemned by government leaders and religious leaders, but I did not see imams. It does concern me deeply because silence conveys indifference or approval, and leaves the populace with a gnawing fear that further violence in the Mideast, and perhaps on our shores, is an assurance.

    I acknowledge that there have been commentaries condemning violence which have received only local coverage. The Somali community in Minneapolis is one such community. I am interested to see if the same is true in metropolitan areas where there are large concentrations of Muslims, such as Detroit. Have Muslim leaders voiced their opposition to violence committed in the name of their faith in your community?


    Hmmm... a question for you. If some gay people did some bad stuff, would you be all out there apologizing for their behaviour?
  • tj85016

    Posts: 4123

    Jan 10, 2016 1:38 AM GMT
    ^^

    no
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    Jan 10, 2016 1:52 AM GMT
    I looked at the title and knew who posted it. Here's your 4 cents.
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    Jan 10, 2016 2:03 AM GMT
    meninlove said
    IgnatiusReilly saidI just finished reading the article "I'm Running Out of Ways to Defend Islam," and, I am loathe to negatively comment because I don't want to accuse every Muslim as being complicit with ISIS but, I have to agree with the journalist.

    Even here in the United States an imam is not seen or heard immediately condemning atrocities publicly in the press committed in the name of Islam. If an imam had condemned the violence why wasn't the press reporting his response to the violence committed in the name of his faith?

    The beheadings of journalists who had been taken as hostages along with relief workers in the region were condemned by government leaders and religious leaders, but I did not see imams. It does concern me deeply because silence conveys indifference or approval, and leaves the populace with a gnawing fear that further violence in the Mideast, and perhaps on our shores, is an assurance.

    I acknowledge that there have been commentaries condemning violence which have received only local coverage. The Somali community in Minneapolis is one such community. I am interested to see if the same is true in metropolitan areas where there are large concentrations of Muslims, such as Detroit. Have Muslim leaders voiced their opposition to violence committed in the name of their faith in your community?


    Hmmm... a question for you. If some gay people did some bad stuff, would you be all out there apologizing for their behaviour?

    Another extremely weak attempt at moral equivalency. Not aware that gays are part of or associate with an organization or doctrine that advocates "bad stuff". Are you?
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    Jan 10, 2016 2:36 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidAs someone who considers himself a liberal, I don't defend Islam and never have. I don't defend any religion; firstly, because I'm an atheist and, secondly, because I believe all religion, particularly of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim variety, is anachronistic and generally pernicious.

    What I do not agree with is attacking a person, simply because they describe themselves as "a Christian", "a Jew", "a Muslim" or a follower of any other religion, provided they are not actively involved in expressing or promoting hatred or intolerance. If you like, it's my atheist version of, "hate the sin (i.e. religion) and not the sinner" (i.e. the believer).


    You wont be able to not defend islam if you call it a religion.
    Islam is a radical expansionist ideology. To say that islam is a religion is like saying communism is an economic system and thats not true. Islam is a combination of religion and a highly expansionist political ideology.
    Islam in the 7th century had taken over most of North africa and all of the middle east. so its an expansionist ideology that seeks one world domination just as communism did.
    They are tolerable at first and then the numbers increase and thats when they flip into mania.
    Last time it took over 700 years to brutally remove them, taking millions of europeans as slaves with them, mostly through piracy. 14 centuries later they have killed at least 110 million people.
    They still have slaves today.


    The ball of self preservation is in my court.
    You're comment stated clearly that if someone said what I said above then they should be killed for intolerance:
    Simplified quote -- "I DO NOT AGREE WITH CHRISTIANS, JEWS, MUSLIMS BEING KILLED UNLESS* ONE OF THEM IS INTOLERANT* OF THE OTHER RELIGION"

    If left-aetheists were to stop the sin of appeasing mass murdering Islamists then I might forgive a left-aetheist.

    Maybe.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 10, 2016 3:32 AM GMT
    Liberals have no need to defend Islam. Liberals defend Muslims.

    Liberals do not defend Christianity. They defend Christians.

    Liberals do not defend Judaism. They defend Jews.

    Liberals do not defend atheism. They defend atheists.

    Liberals love people. They believe people are worth saving. Liberals also believe YOU can be saved. Maybe it's when you meet your first Muslim friend. Maybe it's when your daughter becomes your son. Maybe it's when your uncle comes to you for help with his alcoholism.

    I'm continually amazed by the range of solutions conservatives in this country believe will solve a problem. It's a narrow range, and it usually involves a gun, a bomb, a wall, or fucking prayer. We're waiting for you to find a solution to the issues of the world not invented in the 12th century.
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    Jan 10, 2016 3:49 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidAs someone who considers himself a liberal, I don't defend Islam and never have. I don't defend any religion; firstly, because I'm an atheist and, secondly, because I believe all religion, particularly of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim variety, is anachronistic and generally pernicious.

    What I do not agree with is attacking a person, simply because they describe themselves as "a Christian", "a Jew", "a Muslim" or a follower of any other religion, provided they are not actively involved in expressing or promoting hatred or intolerance. If you like, it's my atheist version of, "hate the sin (i.e. religion) and not the sinner" (i.e. the believer).

    Your comment implies that all religions and people are the same. You say...don't defend it...can't attack them...no black and white, just a sea of gray.

    This is clearly not the case. If it was, you could be an openly gay atheist in any country. But in one country you'd get a marriage certificate....the other, a death certificate.
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    Jan 10, 2016 4:10 AM GMT
    mickeytopogigio saidLiberals have no need to defend Islam. Liberals defend Muslims.

    Liberals do not defend Christianity. They defend Christians.

    Liberals do not defend Judaism. They defend Jews.

    Liberals do not defend atheism. They defend atheists.

    Liberals love people. They believe people are worth saving. Liberals also believe YOU can be saved. Maybe it's when you meet your first Muslim friend. Maybe it's when your daughter becomes your son. Maybe it's when your uncle comes to you for help with his alcoholism.

    I'm continually amazed by the range of solutions conservatives in this country believe will solve a problem. It's a narrow range, and it usually involves a gun, a bomb, a wall, or fucking prayer. We're waiting for you to find a solution to the issues of the world not invented in the 12th century.

    How true! Liberal Obama defended that nice muslim, Sheikh Khubayb al Sudani by releasing him from Guantanamo.

    Nice muslim Sheikh Khubayb al Sudani is now an al Qaeda leader in Yemen, every bit as committed as before, to kill non-muslims, Americans and destroy the United States.
  • IgnatiusReill...

    Posts: 158

    Jan 10, 2016 4:23 AM GMT
    meninlove said
    IgnatiusReilly saidI just finished reading the article "I'm Running Out of Ways to Defend Islam," and, I am loathe to negatively comment because I don't want to accuse every Muslim as being complicit with ISIS but, I have to agree with the journalist.

    Even here in the United States an imam is not seen or heard immediately condemning atrocities publicly in the press committed in the name of Islam. If an imam had condemned the violence why wasn't the press reporting his response to the violence committed in the name of his faith?

    The beheadings of journalists who had been taken as hostages along with relief workers in the region were condemned by government leaders and religious leaders, but I did not see imams. It does concern me deeply because silence conveys indifference or approval, and leaves the populace with a gnawing fear that further violence in the Mideast, and perhaps on our shores, is an assurance.

    I acknowledge that there have been commentaries condemning violence which have received only local coverage. The Somali community in Minneapolis is one such community. I am interested to see if the same is true in metropolitan areas where there are large concentrations of Muslims, such as Detroit. Have Muslim leaders voiced their opposition to violence committed in the name of their faith in your community?


    Hmmm... a question for you. If some gay people did some bad stuff, would you be all out there apologizing for their behaviour?


    Men and women in positions of authority can influence the attitudes and behaviors of followers and constituents. Leaders in the Minneapolis Somali community have spoken publicly in an effort to dissuade young men from joining ISIS and Al-Shabaab. Leaders have a duty to speak out against injustice and lawlessness. I am not asking any imam to apologize for someone else's behavior. My hope is that he uses his position of leadership to denounce violence and to cultivate peace.
  • jjguy05

    Posts: 459

    Jan 10, 2016 7:31 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidYou can't get more liberal than this site, but this view will likely remain in the minority among the left as the US repudiates this ideology and votes for Trump.

    http://www.forwardprogressives.com/im-running-ways-defend-islam/

    During a discussion about this topic, I asked a liberal friend of mine to name one Islamic state where:
    * Homosexuals are allowed to be openly gay.
    * Women are given equal rights.
    * Other religions are allowed to freely practice their faith and are not oppressed.

    He couldn’t do it. And I’ll be honest with you, I can’t either. Because to my knowledge, there’s not a single Islamic nation in or around the Middle East that meets all three of those criteria.

    A comment to the article that puts things in perspective:

    Richard Pearman · Boss at Pixelpalaces
    Generally the ignorant people are those who defend Islam, not those who attack it. Have you read the Koran? It's basically a declaration of war against all other religions as well as teaching that women are inferior to men and men have a right to have 4 wives and beat them. Then there's the Ahadith which contain many other objectionable things, like trees and rocks calling out to Muslims saying, "there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him!" The reason that there are so many honor killings, terrorist acts etc. committed by Muslims is that their scriptures tell them to do it. Also Islam is rotten with intellectual problems, like claiming that the sun sinks into a muddy puddle at night, so Muslim's can't win proper arguments with non-Muslims who know what they're talking about. Therefore they just shout "Racist" and "Islamophobe" and become violent and hope others are stupid enough to be sympathetic to them.


    Liberals don't defend Islam. Liberals criticize religion, Islam included.

    Enough with your conservative bullshit. Please, stop.