Knowingly Having Sex With An HIV+ Person

  • Eli_jah

    Posts: 1391

    Feb 13, 2016 3:36 AM GMT
    I've been talking to this Italian guy online for a few weeks now. He's coming to NY at the end of the month, and we've been planning to meet up at some point. Today he told me that he's HIV+, undetectable and on antivirals. I'm very knowledgeable about the disease, I get tested regularly and recently started PrEP in mid-January. I'm just wondering if there is something morally wrong with knowingly sleeping with someone who is HIV+, even if I've taken all the necessary precautions.

    Would you or have you had sex with an HIV+ person knowing their status?
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    Feb 13, 2016 4:03 AM GMT
    renegay saidI'm just wondering if there is something morally wrong with knowingly sleeping with someone who is HIV+, even if I've taken all the necessary precautions.

    If he's hot it would be morally wrong to not have sex with him.
  • bro4bro

    Posts: 1032

    Feb 14, 2016 1:38 AM GMT
    "Morally wrong"? What morals are your referring to? Unless you think sleeping with a person who chose to be honest with you is somehow evil, I don't see this as a question of either morality or ethics at all.

    I might question his morals/ethics for chatting with you for several weeks and then dropping the Poz-bomb two weeks before you had planned to meet, and that may or may not have some bearing on your decision, but certainly not on the "morality" of your decision.

    You take precautions and you're on PrEP. I presume you do those things in case you happen to sleep with a guy who's HIV+, without knowing it. And let's be realistic, you may have slept with several. Well, now you're faced with the idea of sleeping with a guy who definitely is HIV+, and you do know it. Do you trust those precautions to work?

    You'd be taking a risk, maybe a higher one but also a more calculated one than hooking up with any random guy. You'd have to deal with your fear. That's what this is all about. Not "morals".

    I'm not saying you should sleep with the guy, but don't go asking us to give you an easy way out by telling you it's "immoral". People who use that word are usually the ones saying you shouldn't be gay at all.
  • LeanBuilt

    Posts: 26

    Feb 14, 2016 6:41 AM GMT
    I think there are risks in having sex, AND it is very fun, so we should each be smart and minimize risks by: assuming everyone could be HIV+ and using condoms accordingly, not letting ejaculation occur internally (as condoms can break),choosing our partners carefully and for some that are very active, considering PrEP as a further protection.

    We know that people who say to us that they are HIV neg could be lying. They could also be HIV positive without knowing it, as there is an HIV Window test period of between 9 days to 3 months depending on the test type, where an infected person may show up as negative. If we assume a window period of 30 days, then a March 1 neg test can only tell them they were neg on say February 1, as it takes time for the body to make antibodies. So if it is now June 1, and they were infected Feb 2, they could be positive 3 months already unknowingly.

    Initial HIV infection results in a huge spike in copies of virus per ml of blood (viral load) which could be like 200,000+ copies/ml! Then the body's immune system typically activates and gets this number down to a setpoint range much lower, maybe about 33,000 copies/ml. Thus you can see that infected guys who think they are negative pose a great risk for transmission if condoms not used (especially if they are recently infected).

    HIV+ guys who go on treatment can often get their viral loads down below the detectable limits of the test in use (often <40-50 copies/ml) and this is called undetectable. In short form they are poz undetectable.

    Data results from PARTNER study I have seen involving 19,487 condomless sex acts between one male partner that was neg and his undetectable HIV+ male partner resulted in NO HIV transmissions. The expected number of transmissions if the HIV+ person had had a detectable viral load were 108 times per 7738 acts where the neg guy was the receptive anal partner, and 13 times per 11,479 acts where the neg guy was the insertive anal partner. This study shows that being on treatment and undetectable VERY significantly decreases risk of transmission. Note: If the study was even larger, some transmissions could have occurred (versus none in 19,487), so condoms as an extra protection likely remains a prudent choice.

    SO, sex is risky AND fun, and each of us can reduce chances of HIV transmission by using condoms and making good choices in who we sleep with. With an understanding of how the virus level changes in a person with time, and the results from the PARTNER study, I think choosing health conscious HIV+ undetectable guys for safer sex is much lower risk than condomless sex with guys claiming to be negative, and probably even on par or even safer than sex with a condom with a guy "claiming" to be negative (because sometimes the condom can break and if he is unknowingly infected and has a 100,000 copies/ml viral load, that's 2000 times more than 50). I would suggest condoms always, as a claim of undetectable , like a claim of negative, needs to be balanced with how truthful the person is.

    So kudos to original poster for being informed and planning to play safe, and kudos to your Italian friend for sharing his status with you. Have fun!!
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    Feb 14, 2016 1:37 PM GMT
    renegay saidI've been talking to this Italian guy online for a few weeks now. He's coming to NY at the end of the month, and we've been planning to meet up at some point. Today he told me that he's HIV+, undetectable and on antivirals. I'm very knowledgeable about the disease, I get tested regularly and recently started PrEP in mid-January. I'm just wondering if there is something morally wrong with knowingly sleeping with someone who is HIV+, even if I've taken all the necessary precautions.

    Would you or have you had sex with an HIV+ person knowing their status?


    I'm not an expert on morality. I would just ask another question: would you have sex with a person who was HIV positive NOT knowing his status? 50% of positive men don't know their status.
  • mar0302

    Posts: 273

    Feb 14, 2016 3:44 PM GMT
    You're on Prep, he's undetectable.. the risk of HIV transmission is the closest to zero it can be in any circumstances.. The biggest risk comes from unprotected sex with someone that doesn't know they're positive. Their viral loads will be high and transmission is very likely.. In this case he is being treated, viral loads are undetectable (based upon most recent results? there is some risk here) but you're on Prep also which means (if you take it at least 5 days a week - eg; regularly!!) that you are protected from HIV anyway... stop worrying and go for it.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Feb 14, 2016 3:46 PM GMT
    You prolly already have. You/he just didn't know it at the time.





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    Feb 14, 2016 5:06 PM GMT
    It's not morally wrong but having unprotected sex with anyone you're not deeply connected too is rightfully taboo, as it is the foundation for passing STI's and HIV. That being said, I think you should use protection when having sex and if you develop more feelings for one another consider not if that's what you desire.

    You contemplating if it is morally wrong suggests you are unsure about your feelings of HIV. I honestly do think there will be/already is, a cure, and if you really care about someone who is positive you will believe that too.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Feb 14, 2016 5:32 PM GMT
    I think the word "morally" isn't being used in the right way here. I think if both parties are aware and consent, both have made an informed decision (provided both are clued in as to what the risks really are and aren't guessing).

    Personally I think it's crazy unless both are in a monogamous relationship and it has been carefully considered.

    If I considered something like this in a "hook up" setting, I should probably have my head examined.

    But that's me... everyone can do as they wish.
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    Feb 14, 2016 5:52 PM GMT
    HK, got it right: "everyone one can do as they wish," but be prepared to accept the consequences of what you do, and on your own dime and time.
  • Buddha

    Posts: 1765

    Feb 14, 2016 6:07 PM GMT
    If I'm not mistaken, a person with undetectable virus-levels practically never transmit the virus right? Having that said, I think it's theoretically possible. Either way, I think that if you're on PrEP that should probably be pretty safe, but I'd use condoms anyway since there are other STDs.
  • MiamiGuy8107

    Posts: 2

    Feb 14, 2016 6:18 PM GMT
    bro4bro said"Morally wrong"? What morals are your referring to? Unless you think sleeping with a person who chose to be honest with you is somehow evil, I don't see this as a question of either morality or ethics at all.

    I might question his morals/ethics for chatting with you for several weeks and then dropping the Poz-bomb two weeks before you had planned to meet, and that may or may not have some bearing on your decision, but certainly not on the "morality" of your decision.

    You take precautions and you're on PrEP. I presume you do those things in case you happen to sleep with a guy who's HIV+, without knowing it. And let's be realistic, you may have slept with several. Well, now you're faced with the idea of sleeping with a guy who definitely is HIV+, and you do know it. Do you trust those precautions to work?

    You'd be taking a risk, maybe a higher one but also a more calculated one than hooking up with any random guy. You'd have to deal with your fear. That's what this is all about. Not "morals".

    I'm not saying you should sleep with the guy, but don't go asking us to give you an easy way out by telling you it's "immoral". People who use that word are usually the ones saying you shouldn't be gay at all.


    I agree with Bro4Bro 1000%. What morals are you referring to? How is it morally wrong for YOU to have sex with someone that is HIV (+)?

    Yeah, as stated in the above quoted statement, I can see how it would be suck for this guy to drop the bomb on you when a trip was already planned, or worse for him to drop the bomb on you, just as the two of you were getting naked. It is your choice whether or not YOU would knowingly have sex with a person that is poz. To not inform you of his status, is taking away your choice. That is the only part of this whole situation that is would be immoral, however he told you he is positive so it clearly doesn't apply to your situation.

    And even if he did inform you just as the two of you were getting naked, it still wouldn't be "immoral", but more a case of incredibly bad timing. After all, he DID tell you that he was poz, whether it was at the time you guys started talking to begin with; 2 weeks before a planned trip to see each other; or 2 minutes before your clothes came off. The point is, he had enough respect for you as a person to tell you that he is poz.

    So morals have nothing to do with it. He did his part by informing you of his status, no matter how bad the timing may have been.

    Clearly your post is a cry for help because you are uncomfortable with having sex with someone that is HIV (+). So why don't you talk to him about it? If he was respectful enough to tell you his status, then I'm sure he will respect you enough to have an adult conversation about HIV.

    And I also agree with RNCH...if you have ever hooked up with a guy from a website like Adam4Adam, Manhunt...the list goes on and on; or an App like Grindr, Scruff, etc; or ever gone home with someone...then chances are you have had sex with someone that was HIV positive and never knew.
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    Feb 14, 2016 6:20 PM GMT
    There is nothing immoral about having sex with a POZ guy, especially one who openly tells you prior to having sex. Sexual Health is all of our responsibility, but it sure does help if POZ guys admit to what their potential risk is to you.

    The only qualifier I would have is that you be aware that being undetectable is a significantly lowered risk and I for one would not be taking his word for it. Blips and spikes do occur and Prep is not any more that 92% protection. Just have fun but use protection, then you won't have to be stressing out in a moral dilemma.

    I honestly believe if this guy is one who is being honest about his sexual health, you are in fact being MORAL by respecting and treating a HIV POZ man the same way you would treat a HIV- which is part of the MORAL obligation I would like to see occur more frequently, being that HIV Poz men be honest and stay engaged with treatment together with HIV Neg men being respectful and aware of the level of protection they need
  • slimnmuscly

    Posts: 541

    Feb 14, 2016 6:37 PM GMT
    The same advice that applied in the worst days of the pandemic still applies: Assume anyone you're having sex with is HIV-positive and protect yourself accordingly. If you're doing that, knowing that your assumption is correct shouldn't make a difference.
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    Feb 14, 2016 9:57 PM GMT
    His knowledge, disclosure, and undetectable status, as well as your knowledge and practice(s), literally makes sex far safer, and arguably "morally" (?) equal or superior. A guy who's tested negative can still have been exposed, and subsequently transmit the virus -- unless and until anti-bodies are generated by the immune system. I respectfully suggest you do more research, but the simple answer is he's fine...and you are (probably) too. Don't forget that prep is superb against hiv, but does nothing in preventing transmission of a myriad of other communicable crap. Safe until full honesty and openness, plus strong trust, is for me and only in my personal view, the best approach to a healthy and long, great life.
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    Feb 14, 2016 11:31 PM GMT
    Treat people like people, one at a time, and use your best judgement based on what you know about that person. And make decisions based on what you can afford to lose, not just on the lust of the moment.

    I will say that I have had sex with poz undetectable guys and actually prefer them to guys who tell me they are negative.
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    Feb 14, 2016 11:32 PM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidThere is nothing immoral about having sex with a POZ guy, especially one who openly tells you prior to having sex. Sexual Health is all of our responsibility, but it sure does help if POZ guys admit to what their potential risk is to you.

    The only qualifier I would have is that you be aware that being undetectable is a significantly lowered risk and I for one would not be taking his word for it. Blips and spikes do occur and Prep is not any more that 92% protection. Just have fun but use protection, then you won't have to be stressing out in a moral dilemma.

    I honestly believe if this guy is one who is being honest about his sexual health, you are in fact being MORAL by respecting and treating a HIV POZ man the same way you would treat a HIV- which is part of the MORAL obligation I would like to see occur more frequently, being that HIV Poz men be honest and stay engaged with treatment together with HIV Neg men being respectful and aware of the level of protection they need


    As usual you mess up. PrEP is not at most 92%. In the 2 year Kaiser-Permanente of 657 gay men on PrEP it was 100%.

    Even blips and spikes where undetectable is <50 now, they aren't high enough for HIV transmission. When UVL was <200 it could potentially happen. But even then it didn't. See Partners Study.

    As for "protection" from HIV you are covered. ART and PrEP are protection. But not against STIs. You will need condoms. But even then I assume you both are getting tested 3-4 times a year for STIs also.

    The only moral issue I see is residual guilt and assimilated stigma. I hope you come to terms with it before you meet.
  • Sincityfan

    Posts: 409

    Feb 15, 2016 4:00 AM GMT
    Condoms?

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    Feb 16, 2016 3:42 PM GMT
    I think you should do it! Make sure you lie upside down for at least 20 min after he 'unloads'.
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    Feb 16, 2016 11:03 PM GMT
    CODY4U saidI think you should do it! Make sure you lie upside down for at least 20 min after he 'unloads'.


    Oh how glib and funny!!!!!!!










    Yawn.

  • Eli_jah

    Posts: 1391

    Feb 21, 2016 12:41 AM GMT
    CODY4U saidI think you should do it! Make sure you lie upside down for at least 20 min after he 'unloads'.


    Funny... NOT! I'm not a bottom, so...

    Anyway, I still want to meet this guy (though he's being very shady at the moment), but I probably won't have penetrative sex with him. I've gotta protect myself above all, and I don't know him that well. You all made some excellent points, thanks for your input.

    Don't know why I used the word "moral" either, hmm. Odd word choice. Well, whatever.

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    Feb 22, 2016 4:40 AM GMT
    renegay said
    CODY4U saidI think you should do it! Make sure you lie upside down for at least 20 min after he 'unloads'.


    Funny... NOT! I'm not a bottom, so...

    Anyway, I still want to meet this guy (though he's being very shady at the moment), but I probably won't have penetrative sex with him. I've gotta protect myself above all, and I don't know him that well. You all made some excellent points, thanks for your input.

    Don't know why I used the word "moral" either, hmm. Odd word choice. Well, whatever.



    Good choice. Why are you trying to force yourself to get comfortable with his status while he's being shady to you? He sounds like an ungrateful cunt with entitlement issues.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 24, 2016 4:16 PM GMT
    Personally, I'll never get romantically involved with an HIV+ person again. At some point in the future I'd like to get off PrEP and be in an exclusive relationship again. PrEP is great but I don't want to take it for the rest of my life and I certainly don't want to have to worry about using condoms with my partner forever either.
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    Feb 24, 2016 8:00 PM GMT
    Radd saidPersonally, I'll never get romantically involved with an HIV+ person again. At some point in the future I'd like to get off PrEP and be in an exclusive relationship again. PrEP is great but I don't want to take it for the rest of my life and I certainly don't want to have to worry about using condoms with my partner forever either.


    That's reasonable. I kind of feel the same about Negative guys. Most are not capable of divorcing themselves from the fear.

    BTW you don't have to be on PrEP with a UVL partner. TasP alone is prevention on their part. The only negative partners to get HIV in the partners study got it from outside the relationship. In an open relationship they need to be on PrEP, just like single people.