Dare I ask... should the T be in the LGB Fight? Uh Oh!

  • psustud

    Posts: 111

    Feb 25, 2016 3:11 PM GMT
    Before you bite my head off, let me just say, in a nutshell.

    YES

    But there's a slightly ironic question I have.

    As a gay male, my (external) struggle is to fight for both who AND what I already am AND **accept** both who and what I am.
    I'm a proud man, but as we all know, I/we did not *choose* to be gay.

    In regards to the transgender struggle I wonder, isn't a Transgender individual choosing to NOT accept who and what they are?
    Is that not a fight to *change* who and/or what a person is?

    Therefore, are we really fighting the same fight?

    ****KNOW THIS*****
    I do realize that the deeper thought is that, PERHAPS a transgender person actually IS fighting for who they are and/or feel they are or SHOULD be.
    I understand and totally accept that these feelings (being born in the wrong body) are SO very deep that perhaps we are surely fighting the same fight.

    Also, decoupling the T from LGB would *potentially* be devastating to the transgender movement, fight and struggle for equality.


    I'm not advocating for any of that.

    I just wonder if any of this thought process has EVER crossed ANYONE else's mind?


    What are your thoughts Realjock?

    (when responding, please do keep in mind that my intentions are good and genuinely just highly curious here. As a black man I do not come to this discussion thinking I know everything nor understand everything as one in my skin wishes ALL others would do when discussing race related issues and also what men should to when it comes to female/gender related issues.. For sure!)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 25, 2016 3:22 PM GMT
    There are many RJ members who would be very happy to get the T kicked out of LGBT. They abhor trans-people because in their opinion trans are freaks and gender-bender fanatics. In my opinion, they don't realise how hypocritical they sound.

    I think our movement will be hollow if it does not acknowledge and respect the inclusivity of all groups in their fight for equality, dignity and opportunities. That's what rainbow flag means; it is not a gay flag or trans flag but an umbrella of all of us under one and that we must learn to co-exist with each other side by side.
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    Feb 25, 2016 3:39 PM GMT
    Only the ones that identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual (though that can get quite confusing too). Most transsexuals consider themselves totally hetero (especially MtFs). Grouping all transgender people in with the LGB is rather derogatory, if you think about it. Totally negates their desired gender identites. Regular heterosexual people are not grouped in with the gay community.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Feb 25, 2016 4:14 PM GMT
    Being a gay male means being attracted to the same sex. Being transgendered has nothing to do with attraction to other people. It's more like feeling your body doesn't match who you are the inside. I would imagine being transgendered is much more complicated for this reason.
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    Feb 25, 2016 7:47 PM GMT
    CODY4U saidRegular Cisgendered heterosexual people are not grouped in with the gay community.

    Fixed.

    (Only because I recently figured out what cisgendered means.)
  • Mncub22

    Posts: 10

    Feb 26, 2016 3:42 AM GMT
    I suppose our history and the intertwining of the T and LGB movement would be better commented on by others who know more about our history and have more experience than I in the community.

    Sex, gender, and sexual orientation have often been lumped into similar conversations, despite being quite different issues. But the safe spaces that we require, the ignorance that we face, among other aspects of what we go through, can be quite relatable. Sexual orientation has been tied to gender, and it therefore makes sense to me that gender issues are often grouped together with sexual orientation issues. It often boils down to identity.

    Let's not forget that the true warriors of the LGBT movement were not the masc men that could assimilate into cis culture, but some of our biggest heroes were transgendered or men and women who could not fit into society's expected gender roles. To abandon them now that we are finally gaining more acceptance ourselves would be cruel and savage.


    "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."


    All oppressed people fight a different battle, but all oppressed people are fighting for the same thing: freedom to be who they are without fear and without harm. And an attack on one minority is an attack on all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2016 12:37 PM GMT
    There is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.
  • psustud

    Posts: 111

    Feb 26, 2016 12:47 PM GMT


    I truly appreciate every response. But, this one really taught me something.

    Thanks Mncub22

    I really like this discussion so far!!

    Mncub22 saidI suppose our history and the intertwining of the T and LGB movement would be better commented on by others who know more about our history and have more experience than I in the community.

    Sex, gender, and sexual orientation have often been lumped into similar conversations, despite being quite different issues. But the safe spaces that we require, the ignorance that we face, among other aspects of what we go through, can be quite relatable. Sexual orientation has been tied to gender, and it therefore makes sense to me that gender issues are often grouped together with sexual orientation issues. It often boils down to identity.

    Let's not forget that the true warriors of the LGBT movement were not the masc men that could assimilate into cis culture, but some of our biggest heroes were transgendered or men and women who could not fit into society's expected gender roles. To abandon them now that we are finally gaining more acceptance ourselves would be cruel and savage.


    "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."


    All oppressed people fight a different battle, but all oppressed people are fighting for the same thing: freedom to be who they are without fear and without harm. And an attack on one minority is an attack on all.
  • NealJohn

    Posts: 184

    Feb 26, 2016 1:38 PM GMT
    I'm glad you asked. I have never though it should. Lesbians and gays are same sex oriented , transgendered is something completely different.
  • blueandgold

    Posts: 396

    Feb 26, 2016 3:23 PM GMT
    I have every respect for the struggle for acceptance among trans people. But from a different point of view, I sometimes wonder if they belong in the same "tent", so to speak, as well.

    GBL people are those who have found themselves attracted to people of the opposite sex. Period. The message is simple, efficient, and clear.

    On the other hand, trans people arent really attracted to people of the same sex by the definition of their status, are they? Theyre people who find themselves trapped in the body of a gender other than the one they identify with. Some may be attracted to other men or women or to people opposite of the gender they do or not identify with. Its all a bit confusing.

    I think for us it just muddles the message and includes a category that may not represent us - or represent them! - very efficiently. I wonder if the movement might not be more effective if it were divorced from concepts that don't necessarily have anything do with the with the actual condition or status of being trans-sexual.

    If you're arguing that the rainbow flag should include all sorts of "non-standard" sexual behaviors, then we need to add a ton more letters to that there acronym. Shouldn't we be including the asexual, the pansexual, the object-sexual?

    Just thoughts. I know they will probably be construed in some negative light, but that truly isn't my intent.

  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Feb 26, 2016 3:46 PM GMT
    psustud said

    I truly appreciate every response. But, this one really taught me something.

    Thanks Mncub22

    I really like this discussion so far!!

    Mncub22 saidI suppose our history and the intertwining of the T and LGB movement would be better commented on by others who know more about our history and have more experience than I in the community.

    Sex, gender, and sexual orientation have often been lumped into similar conversations, despite being quite different issues. But the safe spaces that we require, the ignorance that we face, among other aspects of what we go through, can be quite relatable. Sexual orientation has been tied to gender, and it therefore makes sense to me that gender issues are often grouped together with sexual orientation issues. It often boils down to identity.

    Let's not forget that the true warriors of the LGBT movement were not the masc men that could assimilate into cis culture, but some of our biggest heroes were transgendered or men and women who could not fit into society's expected gender roles. To abandon them now that we are finally gaining more acceptance ourselves would be cruel and savage.


    "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."


    All oppressed people fight a different battle, but all oppressed people are fighting for the same thing: freedom to be who they are without fear and without harm. And an attack on one minority is an attack on all.

    I agree. This a unifying response!
  • nice_chap

    Posts: 274

    Feb 26, 2016 4:21 PM GMT
    psustud said

    I just wonder if any of this thought process has EVER crossed ANYONE else's mind?




    Yes this thought has crossed my mind, back when I first came out and started exploring the gay scene. My first thought was "how can transgender people be in the same boat as us? A gay man is a man who accepts the fact that he is a man who likes other men, but a transsexual is someone who rejects their own body."

    In time I stopped giving a shit. The few transgender people i have known have been incredibly decent and friendly people. Whatever reasons they have for not wanting the body they've been born with are their own reasons, and I don't need to question or challenge their feelings and decisions about their own body.

    If a transsexual was being mocked or criticized or attacked in any way, then I would defend him or her. Because those attackers are attacking him or her for a reason that does not concern them. Just like if a homophobe calls me a faggot and criticizes me for liking men - what gives that person the right to comment on my sexual life?

    So we might be fighting a different fight from the Trans people, but we do all want to be accepted and we want to live in a world with less bigotry, so it's best if we don't create more barriers between ourselves and others.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2016 4:28 PM GMT
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up, though bisexual actually does "belong".
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Feb 26, 2016 4:32 PM GMT
    CODY4U said
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up.

    I try not disparage bi or trans people ever, but I do see a lot of that.

    I think gay men just go through an internal struggle where they don't always know if they relate more to men or women, or they say they're "bi" when really they're gay, just to crack the closet door without coming out. I think that causes gay men to question legitimate claims of bisexuality and trans people.

    In short, gay people who can barely accept themselves can become extremely close-minded.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2016 4:47 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up.

    I try not disparage bi or trans people ever, but I do see a lot of that.

    I think gay men just go through an internal struggle where they don't always know if they relate more to men or women, or they say they're "bi" when really they're gay, just to crack the closet door without coming out. I think that causes gay men to question legitimate claims of bisexuality and trans people.

    In short, gay people who can barely accept themselves can become extremely close-minded.


    There's no justification for it. It's none of their business whether they're really bi or not. A lot of gay people still don't fully understand what bisexual even means. Gays that claim bisexuals are "just on their way to Gayville" are no different from str8 people that claim gay guys just haven't met the right girl yet. I've also noticed the same queens that like to question bisexuality will have a fit if someone dares to question their sexuality. It's really bratty.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Feb 26, 2016 4:48 PM GMT
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up.

    I try not disparage bi or trans people ever, but I do see a lot of that.

    I think gay men just go through an internal struggle where they don't always know if they relate more to men or women, or they say they're "bi" when really they're gay, just to crack the closet door without coming out. I think that causes gay men to question legitimate claims of bisexuality and trans people.

    In short, gay people who can barely accept themselves can become extremely close-minded.


    There's no justification for it. It's none of their business whether they're really bi or not. A lot of gay people still don't fully understand what bisexual even means. Gays that claim bisexuals are "just on their way to Gayville" are no different from str8 people that claim gay guys just haven't met the right girl yet. I've also noticed the same queens that like to question bisexuality will have a fit if someone dares to question their sexuality. It's really bratty.

    I agree, though I wouldn't call them "queens," if only because not all drag queens are like that.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2016 4:55 PM GMT
    I worked side by side with a transgender person, and came to have a lot of respect for her over our association together. She would wake up super early everyday just to make sure she would have undeniable femininity before she left her home. There were numerous occasions when she would go to lunch in the foodcourt only to come back with a hot guy in tow; some guy who spotted her and had to make a play. Still, more importantly, what I learned is that transgenders actually are another sexual culture most of us no nothing about. She will seek out guys who are attracted to transgender women, and when they breakup, the transgender lover does not temporarily hookup with some gay man to satisfy his needs; he waits until he meets another transgender. The one thing we both argued about was that she would describe her evenings out as sometimes not so fun, because she was surrounded by fags, which I took offence. Until a transgender person has had the sex change, he/she is a pre-operative trans, so if a she, technically still having same-sex acts.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14335

    Feb 26, 2016 5:02 PM GMT
    NealJohn saidI'm glad you asked. I have never though it should. Lesbians and gays are same sex oriented , transgendered is something completely different.
    This is a valid reason why the T needs to be permanently removed from the GLB community.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2016 5:02 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up.

    I try not disparage bi or trans people ever, but I do see a lot of that.

    I think gay men just go through an internal struggle where they don't always know if they relate more to men or women, or they say they're "bi" when really they're gay, just to crack the closet door without coming out. I think that causes gay men to question legitimate claims of bisexuality and trans people.

    In short, gay people who can barely accept themselves can become extremely close-minded.


    There's no justification for it. It's none of their business whether they're really bi or not. A lot of gay people still don't fully understand what bisexual even means. Gays that claim bisexuals are "just on their way to Gayville" are no different from str8 people that claim gay guys just haven't met the right girl yet. I've also noticed the same queens that like to question bisexuality will have a fit if someone dares to question their sexuality. It's really bratty.

    I agree, though I wouldn't call them "queens," if only because not all drag queens are like that.


    I meant generally, not drag queens. Anyone who's berating people that haven't done anything to deserve it is a total ka-weeeeeeen! icon_cool.gif
  • Tawrich

    Posts: 62

    Feb 26, 2016 5:12 PM GMT
    On a similar note is it LGBTQAI now? Does anyone else think that's a bit much?
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Feb 26, 2016 5:12 PM GMT
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up.

    I try not disparage bi or trans people ever, but I do see a lot of that.

    I think gay men just go through an internal struggle where they don't always know if they relate more to men or women, or they say they're "bi" when really they're gay, just to crack the closet door without coming out. I think that causes gay men to question legitimate claims of bisexuality and trans people.

    In short, gay people who can barely accept themselves can become extremely close-minded.


    There's no justification for it. It's none of their business whether they're really bi or not. A lot of gay people still don't fully understand what bisexual even means. Gays that claim bisexuals are "just on their way to Gayville" are no different from str8 people that claim gay guys just haven't met the right girl yet. I've also noticed the same queens that like to question bisexuality will have a fit if someone dares to question their sexuality. It's really bratty.

    I agree, though I wouldn't call them "queens," if only because not all drag queens are like that.


    I meant generally, not drag queens. Anyone who's berating people that haven't done anything to deserve it is a total ka-weeeeeeen! icon_cool.gif

    Considering your posting history, that would make you a queen, lol.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2016 5:44 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up.

    I try not disparage bi or trans people ever, but I do see a lot of that.

    I think gay men just go through an internal struggle where they don't always know if they relate more to men or women, or they say they're "bi" when really they're gay, just to crack the closet door without coming out. I think that causes gay men to question legitimate claims of bisexuality and trans people.

    In short, gay people who can barely accept themselves can become extremely close-minded.


    There's no justification for it. It's none of their business whether they're really bi or not. A lot of gay people still don't fully understand what bisexual even means. Gays that claim bisexuals are "just on their way to Gayville" are no different from str8 people that claim gay guys just haven't met the right girl yet. I've also noticed the same queens that like to question bisexuality will have a fit if someone dares to question their sexuality. It's really bratty.

    I agree, though I wouldn't call them "queens," if only because not all drag queens are like that.


    I meant generally, not drag queens. Anyone who's berating people that haven't done anything to deserve it is a total ka-weeeeeeen! icon_cool.gif

    Considering your posting history, that would make you a queen, lol.


    Not at all. I only come when called. icon_wink.gif
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Feb 26, 2016 6:56 PM GMT
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up.

    I try not disparage bi or trans people ever, but I do see a lot of that.

    I think gay men just go through an internal struggle where they don't always know if they relate more to men or women, or they say they're "bi" when really they're gay, just to crack the closet door without coming out. I think that causes gay men to question legitimate claims of bisexuality and trans people.

    In short, gay people who can barely accept themselves can become extremely close-minded.


    There's no justification for it. It's none of their business whether they're really bi or not. A lot of gay people still don't fully understand what bisexual even means. Gays that claim bisexuals are "just on their way to Gayville" are no different from str8 people that claim gay guys just haven't met the right girl yet. I've also noticed the same queens that like to question bisexuality will have a fit if someone dares to question their sexuality. It's really bratty.

    I agree, though I wouldn't call them "queens," if only because not all drag queens are like that.


    I meant generally, not drag queens. Anyone who's berating people that haven't done anything to deserve it is a total ka-weeeeeeen! icon_cool.gif

    Considering your posting history, that would make you a queen, lol.


    Not at all. I only come when called. icon_wink.gif

    You're a friendly troll. Despite everything, I enjoy our banter.icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 26, 2016 7:09 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    HottJoe said
    CODY4U said
    Alpha13 saidThere is nothing pure,right and rational about Politics. GLBTQ is pure politics. B is in there just to get the numbers up. Number counts in politics.


    This is SO true. Lots of gays and lesbians are very disparaging to bisexuals...yet those same people always include the B in the initialism. Trans isn't even a sexual orientation. The inclusion of both is definitely all about getting the numbers up.

    I try not disparage bi or trans people ever, but I do see a lot of that.

    I think gay men just go through an internal struggle where they don't always know if they relate more to men or women, or they say they're "bi" when really they're gay, just to crack the closet door without coming out. I think that causes gay men to question legitimate claims of bisexuality and trans people.

    In short, gay people who can barely accept themselves can become extremely close-minded.


    There's no justification for it. It's none of their business whether they're really bi or not. A lot of gay people still don't fully understand what bisexual even means. Gays that claim bisexuals are "just on their way to Gayville" are no different from str8 people that claim gay guys just haven't met the right girl yet. I've also noticed the same queens that like to question bisexuality will have a fit if someone dares to question their sexuality. It's really bratty.

    I agree, though I wouldn't call them "queens," if only because not all drag queens are like that.


    I meant generally, not drag queens. Anyone who's berating people that haven't done anything to deserve it is a total ka-weeeeeeen! icon_cool.gif

    Considering your posting history, that would make you a queen, lol.


    Not at all. I only come when called. icon_wink.gif

    You're a friendly troll. Despite everything, I enjoy our banter.icon_wink.gif


    I think you're a friendly troll sometimes, but other times you seem like the type that tries too hard, and with subpar material. But you're okay. icon_wink.gif
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Feb 26, 2016 7:12 PM GMT
    ^I'll take it!icon_redface.gificon_lol.gificon_twisted.gif