Would you date a HIV positive undetectable man?

  • Noeton

    Posts: 208

    Mar 19, 2016 2:32 AM GMT
    I know other threads have touched on this topic, but I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts. Would you date a HIV positive undetectable man if everything else looked attractive, i.e. body and personal information? Why or why not? And to put it bluntly, is there a risk of contracting HIV or not?

    Currently I don't do it, but wondering if I should change my policy.

  • Ariodante83

    Posts: 152

    Mar 19, 2016 2:42 AM GMT
    I've dated two. It wasn't for long, but it wasn't really an issue.
  • Triggerman

    Posts: 528

    Mar 19, 2016 3:13 AM GMT
    To be honest, no. I went through the ravages of the 80's and 90's. Did it. Been there. My emotional bank is overdrawn by $200 bucks. Especially with younger guys. I was smart and made it through. Why risk it now?
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    Mar 19, 2016 5:27 AM GMT
    Read the posts by timmm55; he has lots of advice about how to stay negative.
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    Mar 19, 2016 6:19 AM GMT
    Of course….
  • Leftswiper

    Posts: 90

    Mar 19, 2016 6:29 AM GMT
    Like all other negatives, it's a factor to be weighed against the positives. I can date an alcoholic but everything else about him has to be amazing, and he has a kind temperament haha. So it depends on the guy.
  • Apparition

    Posts: 3534

    Mar 19, 2016 12:05 PM GMT
    Too scary
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    Mar 19, 2016 12:15 PM GMT
    Yes. I don't believe it's a problem. Information and education is key. Things are very different in 2016 than they were in 1983 when I started dating men.
  • Noeton

    Posts: 208

    Mar 19, 2016 1:40 PM GMT
    Thanks for the responses so far. I'm interested in hearing more opinions, experiences and information.

    I'm just curious about this, I'm not taking one side or the other at this point.

    To respond to an earlier post, I personally can relate to anyone who is uncomfortable about this, because, even with a low risk factor, we are still talking about a life-changing disease.

    Frankly, I've read what some of the "official" HIV sources online have to say about this topic. And I'm still confused (that's why I'm asking about this). I'm not sure if those sources are just trying to be vague to avoid potential legal liability of some kind or what. One study of hundreds of serodiscordant couples found no transmissions over the 2 year period of the study.

    However, the sources I read left me with unanswered questions like these:

    For people in serodiscordant relationships, I wonder what the specific worries, precautions or efforts are besides avoiding transmission? In short, what do you have to give up in a serodiscordant relationship? Any special attention to medications, health care, any special limitations (e.g. in bodybuilding?).

    Does undetectable mean you are testing negative?

    And what if the HIV positive partner stops taking medications for whatever reason?

    Do HIV medications cause side effects that lower your partner's quality of life, and, thereby, lower your own?

    I also read that just because HIV is undetectable in the blood (which is what the test is based upon), it may not be undetectable in the semen. Would this mean PrEP or condoms is a must to avoid transmission?

    Any good online "official" sources of information about this topic?
  • Triggerman

    Posts: 528

    Mar 19, 2016 4:38 PM GMT
    sero-discordant? lol Is that the newest term? This last generation comes up with terms. We fucked back in the day. If somehow I am sero-discordant with someone I just masturbate and call it a day.
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    Mar 19, 2016 10:36 PM GMT
    Noeton saidI also read that just because HIV is undetectable in the blood (which is what the test is based upon), it may not be undetectable in the semen. Would this mean PrEP or condoms is a must to avoid transmission?

    I don't understand the reasoning behind this question; I'm getting the implication that you'd engage in bareback or unprotected sex with your boyfriend if he said he was negative.

    I was conversing with a guy who had had a boyfriend of several years. One day the boyfriend walks in and tells him that he'd fooled around and he got tested and he's now HIV+. The guy telling me this got tested and luckily was HIV-.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Mar 19, 2016 10:42 PM GMT
    OP: you prolly already have dated at least on pos undetectable guy. It's just that you or he didn't know it at the time.

    icon_idea.gif
  • Import

    Posts: 7193

    Mar 19, 2016 11:36 PM GMT
    I would date someone who is undetectable POZ.
    Admittedly though, I'd have to work through my own fears and reservations about it when it comes to sex. If I were dating him first and did not know he was POZ and lets say I learn he was POZ a month into it..... I wouldn't exactly think of it as good news or a bonus.

    Like most thgings when it comes to dating...u learn to tolerate certain things depending on the person. If he was a genuinely loving, good person. Absolutely. We're all human. We all have different battles to fight in life, but HIV would not be one I'd personally want to battle. However, I would try my best to not hold it agmainst others... I'm evolving on the matter. Perhaps in the past it would have been a flat out "hell no"....now, I'm more inclined to be open to it.
  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Mar 20, 2016 3:41 PM GMT
    Import saidIf I were dating him first and did not know he was POZ and lets say I learn he was POZ a month into it..... I wouldn't exactly think of it as good news or a bonus.



    this^

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    Mar 20, 2016 5:31 PM GMT
    I probably would. Question, why do people trivialize HIV positive folks with this "Poz" bullshit? it sounds like you're giving a fun nick name to a dude on your baseball team, when in reality it's serving as a fun and casual sounding term for an illness that is killing you and can be spread. using that formula just makes people desensitized to the illness's power, and stalls people from figuring out the cure.
  • leanandclean

    Posts: 278

    Mar 20, 2016 6:03 PM GMT
    Yes.
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    Mar 20, 2016 7:07 PM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal saidRead the posts by timmm55; he has lots of advice about how to stay negative.


    I do! Here's the simplest one:

    ACON


    There are now at least five strategies that reasonably constitute ‘safe(r) sex’, provided that certain parameters are met.
    They are:
    1.The use of Condoms during casual encounters between men of unknown or discordant serostatus.
    2.HIV negative men taking effective pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP).
    3.Men living with HIV who only have sex without condoms when they have a [u]sustained undetectable viral load and in the absence of sexually transmissible infections (STIs).
    4.Effective use of serosorting between HIV positive men.
    5.Effective negotiated safety agreements.

    [url]
    http://www.hivplusmag.com/treatment/2015/07/23/breakthrough-study-shows-zero-hiv-transmissions-when-undetectable[/url]

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    Mar 20, 2016 7:52 PM GMT
    Noeton saidThanks for the responses so far. I'm interested in hearing more opinions, experiences and information.

    I'm just curious about this, I'm not taking one side or the other at this point.

    To respond to an earlier post, I personally can relate to anyone who is uncomfortable about this, because, even with a low risk factor, we are still talking about a life-changing disease.

    Frankly, I've read what some of the "official" HIV sources online have to say about this topic. And I'm still confused (that's why I'm asking about this). I'm not sure if those sources are just trying to be vague to avoid potential legal liability of some kind or what. One study of hundreds of serodiscordant couples found no transmissions over the 2 year period of the study.

    In your research, find current information. Some info online is years old and worthless. IMHO the insistence on condoms is justified for STDs.

    However, the sources I read left me with unanswered questions like these:

    For people in serodiscordant relationships, I wonder what the specific worries, precautions or efforts are besides avoiding transmission? In short, what do you have to give up in a serodiscordant relationship? Any special attention to medications, health care, any special limitations (e.g. in bodybuilding?).

    Ask MMTM, he is POZ/UVL, his BF is NEG. MMTM is on ART, his BF is on PrEP. They don't have to give up anything. In fact I'd wager they have a much freer, less anxious relationship that two negative men NOT on medication. Of course MMTM has to be on his ART meds. Health care covers the meds and Ryan White Programs are available for lower income people.


    Does undetectable mean you are testing negative?

    NO! We are still POZ. But UVL. <50 is still a trace. I will always self-identify as POZ. I will always disclose and take my meds to prevent any possibility of worsening this epidemic.


    And what if the HIV positive partner stops taking medications for whatever reason?

    If I just stop I'm a fool. A fool for my own health and a fool to society. I will become detectable within weeks. Charley Sheen did just that for his quack Mexican Dr. Now he back and undetectable again....thankfully.

    he could have become resistant.


    Do HIV medications cause side effects that lower your partner's quality of life, and, thereby, lower your own?

    No they increase the quality of life. In some studies they now say we have an equal life span. In one it should an increase OVER negative. There are problem areas, but at 60 I haven't seen any yet.

    I also read that just because HIV is undetectable in the blood (which is what the test is based upon), it may not be undetectable in the semen. Would this mean PrEP or condoms is a must to avoid transmission?

    A must? A good bridge certainly, till the POZ partner reaches UVL status. PrEP would always be good, especially in an open relationship. I asked my doctor about it. There may be differences in semen, but it follows blood. The difference is greater in new UVL patients. But still not infectious. As time goes by 2-4 years it will be about the same.

    Condoms are essential in preventing STDs.

    Any good online "official" sources of information about this topic?


    Many:

    Partner Study: http://www.aidsmap.com/No-one-with-an-undetectable-viral-load-gay-or-heterosexual-transmits-HIV-in-first-two-years-of-PARTNER-study/page/2832748


    Opposites Attract: http://www.aidsmap.com/No-HIV-transmissions-from-HIV-positive-partner-seen-in-Australian-gay-couples-study/page/2949294/

    Swiss Statement: http://www.aidsmap.com/Expert-statements-and-guidance-for-individuals/page/1322904/

    ACON: http://www.acon.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/What-is-Safe-Sex-Position-2014.pdf

    HPTN-052: http://www.hptn.org/research_studies/hptn052.asp

    Dr Anthony Fauci: "The study now makes crystal clear that when an HIV-infected person takes antiretroviral therapy that keeps the virus suppressed, the treatment is highly effective at preventing sexual transmission of HIV to an uninfected heterosexual partner," said Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, director of the NIAID"

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/people-hiv-are-low-risk-spread-it-their-partners-long-theyre-medication-344104

    Dr. Julio Montaner:

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    Mar 20, 2016 8:29 PM GMT
    "Would you date a HIV positive undetectable man?"

    You also need to ask "Would an HIV Undetectable man date a Negative man?"

    You might be surprised.

    I had a 28 year old boy hit me up on SCRUFF. I clearly state I am POZ and undetectable. He is presumably Negative. He asks if I do condoms.

    I said: "I do TasP"

    he said: "Huh?"

    I said: "Treatment as Prevention"

    He said: "what's that?"

    I said: "at this point the learning curve is too great. Thanks"

    he said: "K"

    I wanted to say: "YOUR TOO STUPID TO HAVE SEX WITH ANYONE!"

    If I had sex with this guy, and then he sex with 5 other "NEG" guys, and he became POZ, who do you think he's accuse of "reckless endangerment?" Me! Not the "NEG" guys.

    If a NEG guy doesn't say "Poz friendly, on PrEP" there's no chance in hell I'd meet him. I usually stick to my own: POZ and/or Undetectable.

    Just because we are POZ doesn't mean we are desperate. And condoms are still on the table. Too many STDs out there!
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    Mar 21, 2016 1:11 AM GMT
    Yes I have and probably will again.
  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Mar 21, 2016 2:43 AM GMT
    timmm55 said
    If a NEG guy doesn't say "Poz friendly, on PrEP" there's no chance in hell I'd meet him. I usually stick to my own: POZ and/or Undetectable.


    ^it's a deal^ ,

    I've made it through 40 yrs and still neg, and I'm not about to start taking PreP the side effects of any drug are an unnecessary risk to your body, when judgement and personal responsibility can effect the same result.

    and as you point out, PreP doens't address any of the other rapidly expanding drug resistant STI's out there.
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    Mar 21, 2016 3:02 AM GMT
    Nope. Way too much responsibility. Poz guys are basically the gay equivalent of a single mom with four kids. Lots of guys act like they wouldn't have a prob with it in hypothetical situations, but reality usually gets a little less "PC". Both are a lot to ask someone to take on. However, single moms don't exude anywhere near as much entitlement as poz guys. I'd actually rather date the single mom with four kids.
  • Kinneticbrian

    Posts: 230

    Mar 21, 2016 12:01 PM GMT
    Absolutely I would. I'm utterly amazed at how many people aren't informed/educated on this subject in this day and age. To me, HIV is far less frightening than diabetes. There are other risks to sex besides HIV, it just gets all the press.

    Ultimately this is something that every person has to decide for themselves. Knowing what I do about HIV after doing many hours of volunteer work for the Test Positive Aware Network and AIDS Foundation of Chicago, it just seems to me that serostatus is not a reason to deny someone the opportunity to be known, appreciated and ultimately, loved.

    Each situation is unique. Make an educated decision, not one based on a lack of information and an abundance of fear. Responsible behavior can go a long way to minimizing risk, whether that be sex or something as seemingly harmless as having a drink.
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    Mar 21, 2016 7:31 PM GMT
    timmm55 said"Would you date a HIV positive undetectable man?"

    You also need to ask "Would an HIV Undetectable man date a Negative man?"

    You might be surprised.

    I had a 28 year old boy hit me up on SCRUFF. I clearly state I am POZ and undetectable. He is presumably Negative. He asks if I do condoms.

    I said: "I do TasP"

    he said: "Huh?"

    I said: "Treatment as Prevention"

    He said: "what's that?"

    I said: "at this point the learning curve is too great. Thanks"

    he said: "K"

    I wanted to say: "YOUR TOO STUPID TO HAVE SEX WITH ANYONE!"

    If I had sex with this guy, and then he sex with 5 other "NEG" guys, and he became POZ, who do you think he's accuse of "reckless endangerment?" Me! Not the "NEG" guys.

    If a NEG guy doesn't say "Poz friendly, on PrEP" there's no chance in hell I'd meet him. I usually stick to my own: POZ and/or Undetectable.

    Just because we are POZ doesn't mean we are desperate. And condoms are still on the table. Too many STDs out there!


    I got mail that said I was rude to the 28 year old. Just to be clear I didn't say to him I thought he was stupid. It's what I felt.

    SCRUFF has different listings for hiv prevention. One of them is TasP. Another is condoms. So I expect people to know what both are since they use the site to meet people.

    I don't expect everyone to know. Like I said even some POZ guys don't understand the full benefits of TasP, only that it saved their life. If I was a bit curt it's only because of his assumption that condoms were the only prevention for HIV. I isn't that I don't use condoms, I do sometimes. For STIs.

    I mentioned a learning curve for his own benefit. I'm not on SCRUFF a lot or for long. Terse conversations are common. And frankly I'm not that good at texting from my phone.

    My apologies to anyone if they were offended.

    But to any poz man on RJ, you need to know that disclosure laws are not favorable to us. We bare the burden of proof. Even without HIV transmission we can be convicted and JAILED for 30 years. I take it very seriously. If someone isn't aware of TasP then I can't put myself in jeopardy.
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    Mar 21, 2016 8:29 PM GMT
    I am dating a great guy who is undetectable. I met him at a coffee shop and couldn't help but want to be in his life as a friend or more. We started out as friends but we really like each other and it has been great so far. We have a very active sex life. I am still negative. I know many, many other guys who were in lengthy relationships with undetectable guys who remain negative to this day.

    And after having scare after scare after scare with guys who were negative and then they eventually contracted HIV along the way, I would much rather be with a guy who is undetectable, takes his meds and is responsible. I'm not trying to sell you on having bareback sex with guys. That is a different discussion. I'm just advocating for opening up your dating pool to a whole group of people where one or more guys just might be a great match for you.

    If I could make another suggestion, it would be to find a doctor who specializes in HIV and gay health issues. I searched for one, found him and asked question after question about HIV transmission, Herpes, Syphillis, PrEP, etc. It helped me a lot.