Christian cross has no place on L.A. County seal, judge rules

  • metta

    Posts: 39134

    Apr 08, 2016 12:05 AM GMT
    Christian cross has no place on L.A. County seal, judge rules


    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-la-county-seal-cross-20160407-story.html
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 08, 2016 1:52 AM GMT
    I mind the woman. She appears like a goddess to me.
    I mind the cow, i think its a hindu symbol.

    I mind the masonic symbols ( square and compass).

    Since we are asking peoples opinions. Clear those off too.

    By the way you dont have a right to interpret what they mean to me. Because if it offends 1 person, it shouldnt be on the seal.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 5:01 AM GMT
    But there's still a cross on all three seals! Can you spot them? They are as plain as the nose on your face.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 5:03 AM GMT
    musclmed saidI mind the woman. She appears like a goddess to me.
    I mind the cow, i think its a hindu symbol.

    I mind the masonic symbols ( square and compass).

    Since we are asking peoples opinions. Clear those off too.

    By the way you dont have a right to interpret what they mean to me. Because if it offends 1 person, it shouldnt be on the seal.


    And don't forget the fish! It's a Christian symbol - older than the cross. Get that fish off the seal too!

    And the "T" in county reminds me of the tau cross favored by the Franciscans who oppressed the native peoples of California. Get the "T" off the seal too!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 5:21 AM GMT
    Its about time, especially when you compare LA county seal with the true conservative, OC county seal icon_rolleyes.gif

    Interesting though, I had not noticed before the freemasonic symbols, compass and square, in the LA county seal. I am not sure freemasonry is considered a 'religion' per se. While freemasons were consider a 'secret' society, the religious practitioners were open about what they believed. Except for maybe the ship, all these seal symbols are pagan in nature

    People are becoming more aware of what exactly religion, in general, has done to interfere with the secular world and our laws icon_idea.gif



    "This is a great victory for the Constitution, for the 1st Amendment of the Constitution, for the premise that the government should not be in the religion endorsement business,"

    oc-125.jpg


    ordo.gif


    Not sure 'what kind of God' or religion freemasons worship?

    Freemasonry-symbol-Women-s-T-Shirts.jpg

    freemason-final-ppt-9-638.jpg?cb=1449682
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 12:31 PM GMT
    GladiatorSam saidI don't mind the original logo with the cross. The first lady (left) looks better.
    750x422
    Seal_of_Los_Angeles_County%2C_California


    "The first lady (left) looks better." BECAUSE SHE'S WHITE AND NOT NATIVE AMERICAN. Your profile is blocked and all of your forum posts will be ignored in my RealJock experience.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 08, 2016 1:21 PM GMT
    ELNathB saidIts about time, especially when you compare LA county seal with the true conservative, OC county seal icon_rolleyes.gif

    Interesting though, I had not noticed before the freemasonic symbols, compass and square, in the LA county seal. I am not sure freemasonry is considered a 'religion' per se. While freemasons were consider a 'secret' society, the religious practitioners were open about what they believed. Except for maybe the ship, all these seal symbols are pagan in nature

    People are becoming more aware of what exactly religion, in general, has done to interfere with the secular world and our laws icon_idea.gif



    "This is a great victory for the Constitution, for the 1st Amendment of the Constitution, for the premise that the government should not be in the religion endorsement business,"

    oc-125.jpg


    ordo.gif


    Not sure 'what kind of God' or religion freemasons worship?

    Freemasonry-symbol-Women-s-T-Shirts.jpg

    freemason-final-ppt-9-638.jpg?cb=1449682


    OK, they have an altar, they have ceremonies. They invoke GOD, you cannot be a mason unless you believe in god. If you dont believe its a religious organization your naive.

    And its irrelevant if its a religion. The government is endorsing a group that at its least is a trade union as they say.

    See how ridiculous this is. Changing things because someone is "offended" has no end and is political correctness gone wrong.
    They should also change the name. LOS ANGELES is a religious name.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 1:44 PM GMT
    I see most of the symbols in both seals as having historical meanings to early LA County, and to the area before it became a California county. I presume the building represents a Spanish mission. The fish and cow mean the fishing and cattle industries, significant before the modern era.

    Sailing ships are how Europeans discovered it, and the most common way to reach it until the completion of the Transcontinental Railroad in 1869. I think both women represent the indigenous natives, holding the bounty of the land. The original woman cradles fruits & vegetables in her arms, but has a Westernized appearance, and perhaps rather than native is an allegorical personification, not unlike the Statue of Liberty. The second version is more authentically native.

    I'm not sure what the caliper and triangle mean, perhaps industry or modern development, or both. And the oil derricks must refer to that industry, although I wasn't aware it was ever large within the LA area. The rainbow-like arc may echo California being the gateway to the Pacific, and the cross & stars not Christian per se, but instead the Southern Cross sky constellation, as a symbol for the Pacific.
  • Hypertrophile

    Posts: 1021

    Apr 08, 2016 3:13 PM GMT
    I don't mind the Christian cross when it is associated with the Mission. You can't deny the role Father Serra had in the founding of L.A. or most of the major cities in California.
  • mitshoo

    Posts: 76

    Apr 08, 2016 3:14 PM GMT
    Do we really need seals at all? I do kinda like them though to be honest, because I like symbols that represent history. I don't know that this was actually a huge issue though. The media likes to find three cranky people and call it a social movement so they can get more viewers to sell ad time at a higher rate. That said, I don't think the judge was entirely wrong. The government's choice of symbolism sends a message as to who the government claims to represent. "Of the people, by the people, for the people." Which people? A narrow reading of the establishment clause says only that congress can't legislate an official religion, but a broader interpretation in the spirit of the law is separation of church and state. It's the difference between "de jure" and "de facto". If de jure you haven't chosen an official state religion like England, but de facto you take actions to pick favorites, then the clause doesn't matter and may as well not exist. I'm beginning to think secularism is rather impossible though, partially because I'm beginning to think there is not a whole lot of difference between religion and culture. Insofar as societies aim toward conformity, and subcultures vie for dominance, these sort of political skirmishes will always exist for all time. That's why it's not really about being "offended", it's about trying to feel secure that your lifestyle won't be wiped out by a neighboring group that you think is out to eliminate your way of life. And that statement applies to BOTH sides.
  • bro4bro

    Posts: 1034

    Apr 08, 2016 4:10 PM GMT
    How dare they put a cross on the seal of the county named for Nuestra Senora la Reina de los Angeles (Our Lady - as in the Virgin Mary, folks - the Queen of the Angels)!

    Oh, wait...

    On second thought, they need to change the name of that town! How dare they impose religion on us by giving the city a Christian name!

    Also, we need to change the names of San Francisco, San Diego, Sacramento, San Bernadino, Santa Monica, Santa Barbara, Santa Rosa, Santa Clarita, Santa Cruz, San Luis Obispo...

    Oh, and Art? Yes, LA was and still is known for oil drilling. There are currently thousands of active oil wells in the county. Here's a picture of Signal Hill from 1923.
    300px-Signal_Hill.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 8:08 PM GMT
    This is such a dumb obnoxious lawsuit, and an equally dumb ruling. The name of your city is "Los Angeles", which means "The Angels", and Christian ones at that. Must we change the name of San Diego, San Antonio, and St. Paul too? Are those names too "Christian" for liberal safe-space snowflakes to handle?

    EDIT: ^^^looks like someone beat me to it
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 8:20 PM GMT
    The lady on the 1957 Seal is actually a Roman (Pomona, goddess of fruit trees and orchards).

    Seems pretty obvious to me that each image on the 1957 Seal was a nod to the historical roots of the City; business, agriculture, natural resources and its founding. Whitewashing these roots in the name of political correctness is absurd. I highly doubt the Founding Fathers ever intended for the rules protecting freedom of religion and the desire to avoid an official State religion to be used to force the government to act as if it was atheist. icon_rolleyes.gif

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 8:27 PM GMT
    Just because a governmental entity has religious symbols in its iconography because a particular religious group was influential in the history of the city, county, or state doesn't mean the government is endorsing that religion. It is merely recognizing the contribution of the religious group and paying homage to it. Seems the liberal left has more than its fair share of idiots as much as the conservative right.

    Should public school students not be taught the contributions religious organizations made to their state because it would appear the state is promoting that religion? The early history of my state was heavily influenced by Catholicism. I don't believe you could teach Louisiana history without mentioning the contributions of religious to education, medicine, daily life...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 8:32 PM GMT
    theantijock%20engage%20stalker%20reducti

    There seems a difference between a name which at one point in history might have had whatever religious significance but over the years might no longer carry that religious aura about it and a stand alone symbol of religion used in that city's seal.

    If you don't believe in that, then ask yourself which bothers you more, a lady in a burka (publicly practicing religion) walking her kid down your street, or a kkkross burning (a publicly placed religious symbol) in your front yard or on the city hall lawn. I'm gonna bet the symbol bothers you more than the fashion.

    This is why gay people have no issues with celebrating a place named San Francisco, but they might not enjoy a cross borne plaque memorializing a Christian kid sadly killed in traffic in front of their home, when a religiously generic marker where the family can lay a wreathe would be more considerate of the living who adhere to other or no religion.

    Separation of church and state. This is not complicated.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 08, 2016 8:34 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    I'm not sure what the caliper and triangle mean, perhaps industry or modern development, or both. And the oil derricks must refer to that industry, although I wasn't aware it was ever large within the LA area. The rainbow-like arc may echo California being the gateway to the Pacific, and the cross & stars not Christian per se, but instead the Southern Cross sky constellation, as a symbol for the Pacific.


    How high did you get in the military ? I know Free masonry is on a downturn, again I am bewildered . Even if you were not a mason, most former/active duty aware of its symbols.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 8:38 PM GMT
    What to do about this hypocrisy, Liberals. Obama swore his oath of office on 3 different bibles in 2013:

    Barack-Obama-Photo-7.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 8:39 PM GMT
    KJSharp saidThis is such a dumb obnoxious lawsuit, and an equally dumb ruling. The name of your city is "Los Angeles", which means "The Angels", and Christian ones at that. Must we change the name of San Diego, San Antonio, and St. Paul too? Are those names too "Christian" for liberal safe-space snowflakes to handle?

    EDIT: ^^^looks like someone beat me to it



    The top ruling Angels, were non denominational. They actually rule the cardinal elements, of fire (Aries), water (Cancer), air (Libra), earth (Capricorn)

    The symbol of the religion Christianity (the cross), actually represents the cardinal equinox's of spring (Aries), summer (Cancer), fall (Libra), winter (Capricorn)

    tumblr_mkhtepwPQL1qgs4sno3_500.gif


    Uriel, Cardinal Angel of the Northern Corner, Elemental Angel of Earth
    Gabriel, Cardinal Angel of the Western Corner, Elemental Angel of Water
    Raphael. Cardinal Angel of the Eastern Corner, Elemental Angel of Air
    Michael: Cardinal Angel of the Southern Corner, Elemental Angel of Fire

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 08, 2016 11:46 PM GMT
    Pointing out that the city's name is spiritually-inspired is useless when pointing out that a current symbol for a seal--which should honor the separation of church and state--has Christian imagery. I agree with the judge.

    It's not about "getting offended" it's about honoring the separation of church/state.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 09, 2016 12:27 AM GMT
    So, according to the article, the old version of the seal was replaced by the new version without the cross on top of the church. Then the seal was changed again, only to add the cross.

    I confess if the entire change was to add a cross, I would consider that pretty in-your-face, blatant religiosity.
  • mitshoo

    Posts: 76

    Apr 09, 2016 1:26 AM GMT
    YVRguy saidI highly doubt the Founding Fathers ever intended for the rules protecting freedom of religion and the desire to avoid an official State religion to be used to force the government to act as if it was atheist. icon_rolleyes.gif


    Just curious, if you don't think they intended the rules to force the government to act as if it was atheist, do you think they put those rules in place for the government to act as if it was Christian? Also, a government isn't a person so it can't actually be religious or atheist. Because those are attributes of people. To say that a government is religious is just to say that it is composed of people who are religious and use their position to maintain the security of their religion's continued existence, largely by funnelling material resources to or giving discounts to people who behave the way they want them to, and witholding it from the rifraff who don't conform.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 09, 2016 3:04 AM GMT
    It would have made for a better point had YVRguy said: I highly doubt the Founding Fathers ever intended for the rules protecting freedom of religion and the desire to avoid an official State religion to be used to force the government to act as if religion didn't exist.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 11, 2016 5:22 AM GMT
    ELNathB said
    KJSharp saidThis is such a dumb obnoxious lawsuit, and an equally dumb ruling. The name of your city is "Los Angeles", which means "The Angels", and Christian ones at that. Must we change the name of San Diego, San Antonio, and St. Paul too? Are those names too "Christian" for liberal safe-space snowflakes to handle?

    EDIT: ^^^looks like someone beat me to it



    The top ruling Angels, were non denominational. They actually rule the cardinal elements, of fire (Aries), water (Cancer), air (Libra), earth (Capricorn)

    The symbol of the religion Christianity (the cross), actually represents the cardinal equinox's of spring (Aries), summer (Cancer), fall (Libra), winter (Capricorn)

    tumblr_mkhtepwPQL1qgs4sno3_500.gif


    Uriel, Cardinal Angel of the Northern Corner, Elemental Angel of Earth
    Gabriel, Cardinal Angel of the Western Corner, Elemental Angel of Water
    Raphael. Cardinal Angel of the Eastern Corner, Elemental Angel of Air
    Michael: Cardinal Angel of the Southern Corner, Elemental Angel of Fire



    I'm sure that's exactly what the Old and New Testament writers had in mind.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14359

    Apr 11, 2016 11:50 AM GMT
    Hypertrophile saidI don't mind the Christian cross when it is associated with the Mission. You can't deny the role Father Serra had in the founding of L.A. or most of the major cities in California.
    +1
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 11, 2016 12:52 PM GMT
    musclmed said
    Art_Deco said
    I'm not sure what the caliper and triangle mean, perhaps industry or modern development, or both. And the oil derricks must refer to that industry, although I wasn't aware it was ever large within the LA area. The rainbow-like arc may echo California being the gateway to the Pacific, and the cross & stars not Christian per se, but instead the Southern Cross sky constellation, as a symbol for the Pacific.

    How high did you get in the military ? I know Free masonry is on a downturn, again I am bewildered . Even if you were not a mason, most former/active duty aware of its symbols.

    And how are you smart enough to breathe? Those are not Freemasonry symbols. Those are measuring calipers, and a triangle for determining right angles, among other uses (any draftsman will own one). And why would my military service make me particularly aware of Freemasons? I hope they don't let you outside the grounds to have contact with the public.