why do we make fun of the way some gay guys talk? walk? dress? Could it be we are as homophobic of gay guys as hetersexuals are?

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    Feb 09, 2009 8:54 PM GMT
    Although most of the guys on here joke about it. I know this is so true. Even I make remarks to people about it. But I would never knowingly say something to someone's face about it if I knew they were conscious of it, and then jokingly say " yea I was kidding" I guess this site is kind of homophobic in its premise anyways. I mean jock? how many gay jocks are there, and why do they end up hiding it from their str8 jocks buds their entire lives? You know why.... because they dont want to be ridiculed their entire lives. Stop the hate guys and SELF HATE.! thats for the heterosexuals not amongst ourselves.
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    Feb 09, 2009 9:21 PM GMT
    I'm an equal opportunity disser. It is my god-given right as a gay man to say catty things about every other human being on Earth, regardless of race, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or gym routine.

    The difference with homophobes is their desire to deny us gays our civil rights, to even physically hurt us on occasion, and to marginalize us in society, if not eliminate us completely. I wish none of those things for other gays, and in fact I work to achieve the opposite. I am not like a homophobe.

    Not that some catty remarks can't be hurtful, and that gay trait does need to be exercised with caution & concern. But mostly it's confined within our own community, and doesn't in my view provide any kind of example or encouragement for the vast majority of the true homophobes. They'll hate us no matter what we call each other.
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    Feb 09, 2009 10:01 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidI'm an equal opportunity disser. It is my god-given right as a gay man to say catty things about every other human being on Earth, regardless of race, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or gym routine.

    The difference with homophobes is their desire to deny us gays our civil rights, to even physically hurt us on occasion, and to marginalize us in society, if not eliminate us completely. I wish none of those things for other gays, and in fact I work to achieve the opposite. I am not like a homophobe.

    Not that some catty remarks can't be hurtful, and that gay trait does need to be exercised with caution & concern. But mostly it's confined within our own community, and doesn't in my view provide any kind of example or encouragement for the vast majority of the true homophobes. They'll hate us no matter what we call each other.
    I don't really think that "homophobe" is the right term.

    we're kind of just labeling anything anti-gay as "homophobic"

    I mean. If I were afraid of spiders, I wouldn't go into a dark scary cave looking for spiders to beat up.


    It seems like it would lean more towards prejudice; and we'd leave the true homophobes to be just what they are; silly ninnys.
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    Feb 09, 2009 10:01 PM GMT

    It's that masked jealousy of the fact that they can't be me and simply enjoy doing what I do in all honesty out there.

    So, who's their daddy now? HAicon_exclaim.gif
  • Delivis

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    Feb 09, 2009 11:04 PM GMT
    I do not understand why this accusation of homophobia and "self hate" always gets thrown up every time someone claims they are not romantically attracted to the more outrageous effeminate stereotypical types.

    I can see how it is possible for that to be true for *some* people. Don't get me wrong. But i think that for most people who claim to be turned off by the sort of guy you describe it does not hold true that they are homophobic and hate themseleves.

    In my case, for instance, i am generally turned off by *anyone* who is the epitome of *any* stereotype. I would be just as reluctant to date the skinny guy in make up, pink high heels, and purple boa with the outrageous mannerisms as i would be to date the guy who looks like he just came out of a rap video, speaking intentionally improper english, who is overly egostical, and who just talks about his "bling" and his "bitches" all day, acting tough. I am just not a fan of dating outrageous stereotypes is all.
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    Feb 09, 2009 11:13 PM GMT
    I agree with Delvis however I think guys sometimes go over the top with it. It's not you're thing but you don't have to knock it.. and a lot of guys do.

    I think respect for all is nice. We can't choose who we are attracted to, but could all stand to be a little more open minded about how some people have different mannerisms; after all, we all hoped and needed someone with an open mind with whom we could depend on when we came out and hoped people didn't think poorly of us for being different.




  • Sebastian18

    Posts: 255

    Feb 09, 2009 11:15 PM GMT
    I think this topic is addressed in a book I just finished reading called Androphilia, by Jack Malbranche. I would heartily recommend to any MSM who is interested in looking at different aspects of gay identity or LGBTQ studies. There's a lot of stuff that might come off as homophobic, but as a gay man androphile, the author really offers some valuable insights.

    Having studied some linguistics and LGBTQ studies in school, I think that the stereotypical lisp is largely an affectation among gay men in a culture where gender roles are largely viewed as being fluid which I think has really reached a polarization in modern society since at least the 1960's when there started to be a greater emphasis on identifying as masculine or submissive/effeminate as a way of displaying one's sexual proclivities.

    Now, that's not to say that there aren't gay guys (or straight guys for that matter) who come off as being effeminate with or without their knowledge. In fact, I was convinced that one of my best friends from high-school was gay based on his style of communication only to find out years later when we reconnected that he's still very much straight in identity and still talks the same way despite having numerous girlfriends since HS.
  • dannyboy1101

    Posts: 977

    Feb 09, 2009 11:36 PM GMT
    I am very much intrigued by this topic because I really don't believe we can get equal rights without banding together as one giant unit (ha, unit). It seems that you have guys who are over the top on both sides. If I pick up a phone, I feel equally unattracted to someone who would address me as "girl" as I am to someone who would address me as "bro," but that's just not what I'm attracted to and that's ok. It's ok to be attracted or not attracted to anything. Now let's leave the realm of "Would I sleep with him?" to just walking through the bar. The difference is between walking away from said person vs. outwardly attacking him even if it's verbal commentary. Overtly negative policital campaigns often fail. I feel the same about overtly negative fags no matter how not into the "scene" you are. That's great, but let the bois dance uninsulted just as they let you sit in your house watching football.
  • ep83

    Posts: 144

    Feb 09, 2009 11:38 PM GMT
    Italianguy63I guess this site is kind of homophobic in its premise anyways. I mean jock? how many gay jocks are there, and why do they end up hiding it from their str8 jocks buds their entire lives? You know why.... because they dont want to be ridiculed their entire lives. Stop the hate guys and SELF HATE.! thats for the heterosexuals not amongst ourselves.


    I think this post suffers from the false presumption that it is only the closeted jock type that hates on other types of gays. More broadly, it assumes that all jocks are closeted and mired in self-hate.

    While I like to think I'm more thoughtful than your typical "jock," I certainly was an athlete in high school and college (wrestling, hockey, water polo) and being gay was never an issue. In fact, it was the self-styled "enlightened queers" who made me uncomfortable. Despite me never hiding who I was, including from my teams, I HAD to be self-hating because I wasn't gay their way. Such was their attitude, both explicitly stated and implied by my interactions with them. They could not or would not accept or understand that a gay guy enjoyed playing rather aggressive sports and camping instead of conforming to their conception of what a "proper" gay was. Their implications that it was the result of some personal self-hatred or delusion were insulting and rather hurtful. Needless to say, my teammates were far more fun to hangout with, and far more accepting, than the hypocritical flag wavers.
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    Feb 09, 2009 11:46 PM GMT
    uffff...

    two different things

    (1) camp/effiminate behaviour

    (2) Same sex attraction.

    Being (1) does not mean that you feel (2). Feeling (2) does not mean that you like (1). Disliking (1) does not mean that you have "internalised homophobia":

    Why do people complicate this so much?
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    Feb 09, 2009 11:51 PM GMT
    My own experience has been the opposite of the OP's explicit problem statement: I have repeatedly felt judged as "not gay enough" by other gay men. And my reaction for decades has been, "If it's wrong for you to change your mannerisms to fit in with straight society, why would it be right for me to submit to your brand of peer pressure?" I can't abide a system in which guys change their behavior because they are made to think they must be swish to be gay. It's their choice and I don't want to condemn them for it, but I do want to condemn the peer pressure. I guess that's a subtle line I've drawn.

    There are as many ways to be gay as there are gay men. Let's respect our diversity.
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    Feb 10, 2009 12:39 AM GMT
    Nothing new here. Every culture and sub-culture criticizes/ridicules their own in some form.

    I'm in a similar situation as seapower. I'm not gay enough for some guys and they feel that I don't have any "pride". Lame.
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    Feb 10, 2009 8:42 PM GMT
    Delivis saidI do not understand why this accusation of homophobia and "self hate" always gets thrown up every time someone claims they are not romantically attracted to the more outrageous effeminate stereotypical types.

    I can see how it is possible for that to be true for *some* people. Don't get me wrong. But i think that for most people who claim to be turned off by the sort of guy you describe it does not hold true that they are homophobic and hate themseleves.

    In my case, for instance, i am generally turned off by *anyone* who is the epitome of *any* stereotype. I would be just as reluctant to date the skinny guy in make up, pink high heels, and purple boa with the outrageous mannerisms as i would be to date the guy who looks like he just came out of a rap video, speaking intentionally improper english, who is overly egostical, and who just talks about his "bling" and his "bitches" all day, acting tough. I am just not a fan of dating outrageous stereotypes is all.


    Well said. Personally, I prefer a naturally masculine man for sex or dating or a mate. I grew up with 2 sisters and lots of female cousins, and the sounds of screechy duck voices still to this day makes me cringe.

    But I do have a number of so called "fem" acquaintances and friends. But let's face it.............the typical stereotyped fem gay guy IS kinda funny. In fact, why is it, that no matter where you go in the world, fem guys walk and talk the same way? Is there a college or online school that teaches this uniformity?

    Remember though, that it was the so called fem guys who started the whole gay rights movement. They had more balls than a lot of guys.

    I also do not like any stereotypes........to me, a person who adopts a "uniform" or a cliched manner is just groping around in the dark looking for an identity or desparte to belong to something or a group.

    This applies to gay and straight people.

    I think the thing I dislike most is a gay guy trying too hard to be "butch" and manly . It comes across as being artificial and forced.

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    Feb 10, 2009 8:44 PM GMT
    how many times can the same thread be re-written?

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    Feb 10, 2009 8:47 PM GMT
    seapower saidMy own experience has been the opposite of the OP's explicit problem statement: I have repeatedly felt judged as "not gay enough" by other gay men. And my reaction for decades has been, "If it's wrong for you to change your mannerisms to fit in with straight society, why would it be right for me to submit to your brand of peer pressure?" I can't abide a system in which guys change their behavior because they are made to think they must be swish to be gay. It's their choice and I don't want to condemn them for it, but I do want to condemn the peer pressure. I guess that's a subtle line I've drawn.

    There are as many ways to be gay as there are gay men. Let's respect our diversity.


    Being told that I am not gay enough is used to be very hurtful. But fuk em.
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    Feb 11, 2009 1:37 AM GMT

    Are gay guys homophobic? Uuuugggh, I hope not. Only on this site have I ever encountered anything that could even resemble that. It's got to be one of the silliest notions ever because all it does is make anyone who feels that way worthy of anykind of hatred, violence, or discrimination that comes their way on account of their being gay. Why, because they are just as bad as the people who would persecute them.

    Effeminate gay men walk, talk, exude the thing that we are: no hiding it, no pushing it back, and no conforming. Hell, some try to conform but are still blatant. This spectacle is symbolic; It becomes gay right there out in the open; in my opinion, it's a test that gay men are failing because just as none of us can help liking men the way we do, most effiminate men do not wake up and say they will talk funny, or walk gay, or open themself up to possible ridicule because it's fun. They don't do this because they want to, they do it because that is simply who they are and they are brave enough to embrace it, not that they have a choice. What gay man would really denigrate them for it?

    Some of the Real Posers on here do. In no way shape or form do I even react anymore when I hear hatred and nitpicking about effiminate guys because the men doing it almost never excude masculinity themselves and the fact they hate essentually, themselves, makes them pretty low on the personality/integrity scale too. I am not threatened by any outward manifestation of gay because I'm gay.

    The whole masc/fem controversy reminds me of a serial murderer and a mass murderer arguing about who is worse....lol, ok, maybe that was a bad example, but come on, it's mary mary to me, no difference. The only difference is that straight society is more accepting of someone who appears straight: not because they truly accept him, but because he mirrors them: what they condone, what they inforce, what they are. It's sad: while he's doing this, where is he? What happens anytime he wants to snap his fingers, or swivel around in his chair (quickly, almost falling) to cruise a guy, or comment on that bag what was she thinking; it gets pushed down.

    To these super butch guys: WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE FOOLING, BITCH!? They are like straight guys, but more uptight, if that's possible. It can't be good for their blood pressure, most of them won't allow himself to do anything short of jut out his chest and grimace. They reinforce my belief that all gay men naturally have feminine traits (more than the average man) because no matter how masculine they appear most of the time, get them alone and gay safe the environment, this beautiful gay bedazzled swan emerges. A VOLCANIC ERUPTION of gay is really what spews forth. "Feel better bitch, felt good to get that out, ay?"

    Oh god, then you get people on here who try to make it all about sex; I won't type who...it might get my keyboard dirty. That is total bullshit, because if preference was all this is about WHERE did all the rancor come from in a recent post about a guy who dated a fem and instead of just stating a preference, trashed him? Why, is there always this rediculous dividing line drawn whenever someone states his preference and why instead of a statement, it always sounds like an announcement like: "Oooh, look at me, I don't "sleep" with those people, I'm better. Sometimes, you have to look below the surface to uncover the truth. THIS IS SELF HATE PLAIN AND SIMPLE. It comes from bitches who want to have sex (be gay) in the dark and emerge unsplattered in the light, before straight society, undetected. Not sure why, what's done in the dark always comes into the light somehow.

    SELF HATE, I've encountered this in the black community. For years I got crap from my family because I was too dark. I've got a mother who admitted she'd have been happier if I had been born lighter and other relatives and peers who admit to choosing friends and lovers based on skin tone.

    Are you fricken kidding me?! This was a while back mind you, when Lawton was a tad more prejudice than it is now. What sort of logic is it to assume more acceptance comes from being more like one's oppressors? Sorry black community, you've done it again and have something in common with gays: you both turn your back on members of your own community to seek acceptance from another that can barely stomach you, good luck with that.

    Disclaimer: When I said oppressors that can barely stomach them, I meant to draw a barrier between oppresive whites and accepting whites, oppressive straights and accepting straights. At the top of my comments, I stated some gay men are worthy of hatred toward them for being gay. I meant worthy like if someone plays with snakes and is bitten, not deserving like some one who I truly want to get bitten by a snake. I don't want "that" for anyone. So live and let live really, it might rub off on them instead of vice versa, thankyou.
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    Feb 11, 2009 2:03 AM GMT
    hmm... well, i am going to speak just from my own point of view and not try to say "the way it is".

    I personally don't find myself attracted to really fem/flambuoyant "stereotypical" gay guys. having said that, I have friends who embody several aspects of the stereotype, but i dont have any friends who embody the entire stereotype, lock, stock and boa.

    however, this is not because i find them to be repulsive or just dont like them, its more to do with the fact that i don't like to be, nor surround myself with anyone who embodies any full one stereotype, straight, gay, whatever.

    i am many things in the make-up of my personality, but i find that any social group i identify myself with; politically, sexually, economically, intellectually, etc., i find that i can never fit into any group. in high school, i never fit into any one clique, and i would rather be friends with people from the widest variety of groups and then once in a while bring some of them together and see what happens.

    what i have noticed though, is that there is something comforting in feeling attached to a particular social group, a feeling of security, safety or just plain comfort.

    our society tends to function in a way that divides all people into different social groups: gays, jocks, feminists, leftists, conservatives, liberals, white, black, christian, jew, muslim, rich, poor, etc...

    it is easy to take a large brush and make broad strokes over any one of the above mentioned groups, and identify common stereotypes for each category. when you get to know people from each category, genuine people, they tend to defy your predetermined notions of what defines them and how they define themselves.

    i think that this is an unfortunate construct of our society, to not see an individual, but rather to group in manageable collectives, and then pit them against one another.

    in terms of the "gay" grouping, i know people who choose to be flambuoyant and the works not because that's what it means to be gay for them, but because to them, that is a way for them to BE identified as gay, to be seen for how they see themselves.

    at times, i can admire that, to me, that would take a lot of courage, and they reap the benefits... as in, someone can see them and know that they are gay, and so it's literally throwing yourself out there.

    for me, personally, a lot of friends and new people i meet have told me that they didnt know i was gay until i brought it up, and i get hit on way more by girls than guys, so i can envy that aspect of someone that throws themselves out there for all to see. for me, i think it would make meeting people a lot easier, which is something i have a big problem with. although, i think it would also be a lot easier if i were attracted to the stereotypical gay guy cause then there would be no questioning, "is he gay? did he check out my friend or me? etc etc"... really it would make things easier, but alas, life aint easy.

    personally, my view is that my goal in life is to just be myself, and embrace all of who i am and what i am, and just to be true to that and see where it takes me. i aim to be and accept myself as an individual, lost in the limbo between social groupings.

    individualism seems to be fading in many respects, and so i can respect anyone for simply being true to themselves. if you are flambuoyant at heart and that's who you are, then all the power to you, i can respect that.

    i just don't see the point in degrading those people who are that way though, because then we only invite it upon ourselves. and if more gay people are able to defy a stereotype and be true to themselves,then its all for the better for everyone, because then people may feel like they don't have to conform to any one perception of what it means to be gay, or what it means to be a jock, or what it means to be a nerd, woman, muslim, conservative, etc.

    So, be an individual, and be true to yourself, and respect the individuality of others.

    anywho, that's my two cents!
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    Feb 11, 2009 2:17 AM GMT
    italianguy63 saidAlthough most of the guys on here joke about it. I know this is so true. Even I make remarks to people about it. But I would never knowingly say something to someone's face about it if I knew they were conscious of it, and then jokingly say " yea I was kidding" I guess this site is kind of homophobic in its premise anyways. I mean jock? how many gay jocks are there, and why do they end up hiding it from their str8 jocks buds their entire lives? You know why.... because they dont want to be ridiculed their entire lives. Stop the hate guys and SELF HATE.! thats for the heterosexuals not amongst ourselves.


    1) I thinks it's rather funny you would rather make fun of other people behind their backs for being the way they are...
    2) The fact that you are mentioning 1 type of gay group and dissing on them for an action that almost every group is guilt of is fucked up.
    3) The self-hate comment is total bullshit and you know it. Just because you get annoyed by the stereotypical gay type (aka: lispy, hip-swinging, girly) doesn't mean you hate yourself. Being gay doesn't imply that you are any of these characteristics.
    4) Because I'm a math nerd, here is a simple proof based on info given from italianguy63 himself:

    italianguy63 hates himself:
    Proof:
    1. He has "[made] remarks to people" behind their backs on how they act. (given)
    2. He professes that "this site is homophobic in it's premises." (given)
    3. He is homophobic (Transitive property of Homophobia)
    4. He is self-hating (definition of homophibia)
    Q.E.D.

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    Feb 11, 2009 2:22 AM GMT
    Everyone live their life the way they like and that's their problem not yours.

    I dont judge cause I wouldnt like to be judged either. I dont feel attracted to effeminate guys but that doesnt mean I stay away from them. Thats just stupid. I just hate the gay label, not the fact of being gay, and these are 2 different things. I'm not into the gay scene, Im not the kind of guy who is into, gay clubs, gay bars, gay meetings, gay swimming, gay carnival, gay football time or gay fashion. Instead, im into clubs, bars, meetings, swimming, carnivals, football and fashion. I like being part of variety and not categorized, the more you fall into one category the most discrimination increases both ways. So I dont judge, Im just part of the crowd.
  • Delivis

    Posts: 2332

    Feb 11, 2009 2:25 AM GMT
    charlitos said

    I dont feel attracted to feminist guys


    Arent almost all of us feminist guys? Anyone here not believe in equal rights for women?

    I'm just teasing of course, i know what you meant..icon_smile.gif
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    Feb 11, 2009 2:32 AM GMT
    Delivis said
    charlitos said

    I dont feel attracted to feminist guys


    Arent almost all of us feminist guys? Anyone here not believe in equal rights for women?

    I'm just teasing of course, i know what you meant..icon_smile.gif


    dont worry Delivis I accept you the way you are...
  • RSportsguy

    Posts: 1925

    Feb 11, 2009 2:34 AM GMT
    I think you have to accept your friends wherever they fall on the gay spectrum. I have many friends who would be considered 'girly' (their term, not mine) and they joke about themselves all the time. Like one of my best friends says--"It is what it is"!! I guess what I am trying to say is just enjoy your friendships and not try to over analyze them. Life is too short!! icon_biggrin.gif
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    Feb 11, 2009 2:36 AM GMT
    As long as I feel the person is being true to himself I don't care. Phony macho behaviour is just as much a turn off as phoney effeminate behaviour. The only behaviour among people (gay or straight) I have troubling deal with is of the obnoxious or self-destructive sort.
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    Feb 11, 2009 2:41 AM GMT
    SurrealLife saidAs long as I feel the person is being true to himself I don't care.

    ditto
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    Feb 11, 2009 2:46 AM GMT


    caslon said "ditto" and I call you, sir, a liar. Look at all the posts where you put new guys down. Just look at your posts where you ridicule people while hiding behind cute little pictures.