I've HEARD of someone getting HIV when they slept with a person who was Undetectable

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    Jun 01, 2016 1:26 AM GMT


    They have a good info series on YouTube
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    Jun 01, 2016 1:33 AM GMT
    The key message I hear from this HIV doctor is that you can't rely on the other guy telling you that he's undetectable. He could just as well be telling you he's totally negative, when he's not. Where's the proof? How do you know? Even HE may not yet know that he's poz. And he certainly doesn't know what his viral load is at that moment unless he just had it measured within hours of having sex with you.

    Safe sex means assuming EVERY new guy is positive & detectable. Even if he doesn't admit it, doesn't know, or says he's undetectable. How you handle it (declining sex with him, using a condom, relying on PrEP, etc) is up to you. But consider him poz until you have indisputable evidence that he's negative. Which, given the "black out" window for HIV detection following a recent infection, is nearly impossible.
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    Jun 01, 2016 8:56 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidThe key message I hear from this HIV doctor is that you can't rely on the other guy telling you that he's undetectable. He could just as well be telling you he's totally negative, when he's not. Where's the proof? How do you know? Even HE may not yet know that he's poz. And he certainly doesn't know what his viral load is at that moment unless he just had it measured within hours of having sex with you.

    Safe sex means assuming EVERY new guy is positive & detectable. Even if he doesn't admit it, doesn't know, or says he's undetectable. How you handle it (declining sex with him, using a condom, relying on PrEP, etc) is up to you. But consider him poz until you have indisputable evidence that he's negative. Which, given the "black out" window for HIV detection following a recent infection, is nearly impossible.


    You don't need to make the Doctor's assumptions.

    There's a series
    #7
    "He Says he's Undetectable....? "



    You seem to be hung up on viral loads fluctuating radically. You say "he certainly doesn't know what his viral load is at that moment unless he just had it measured within hours of having sex with you." That's nonsense.

    The real issue is compliance, "drug holidays", not taking meds regularly. Then you certainly can become detectable again, they can also become UNDETECTABLE again.

    "A person’s viral load can fluctuate and increase the risk of HIV transmission if they have another STI or the flu, and during breaks in taking HIV medications. Maintaining good general health and preventing other STIs can help keep viral load down." - See more at: http://www.nzaf.org.nz/hiv-aids-stis/hiv-prevention/uvl/#sthash.7hK8zU0L.dpuf

    Yet in all the studies world wide, even with STDs and the flu....not one person who was suppressed (Undetectable) transmitted HIV.

    "No transmissions occurred despite quite high levels of STIs, especially in the gay couples. When the ‘Swiss Statement’ was released in 2008, it declared that people with an undetectable viral load did not transmit HIV, but made an exception of people with an STI: the PARTNER study may be telling us that STIs (in either the positive or negative partner) don’t increase the likelihood of HIV transmission if the positive partner is on ART and undetectable (though of course they can still be transmitted themselves). "

    http://www.aidsmap.com/No-one-with-an-undetectable-viral-load-gay-or-heterosexual-transmits-HIV-in-first-two-years-of-PARTNER-study/page/2832748


    Clearly you are stuck in the 90s when you say " But consider him poz until you have indisputable evidence that he's negative." You only see BLACK and WHITE. A person who is POZ and Undetectable is actually one of the safest (along with Neg/PrEP). Certainly more than someone who thinks they are negative.



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    Jun 02, 2016 2:23 AM GMT
    Art_Deco said The key message I hear from this HIV doctor is that you can't rely on the other guy telling you that he's undetectable.

    "Maybe this wasn’t the answer you were looking for. Maybe what you meant to ask is if he could intentionally or maliciously lie about his undetectable status. This way of thinking, however, lends to the false narrative of the predatory nature of people with HIV. Sure, it’s possible that someone out there could lie to you about being undetectable in order to lure into condomless sex, but chances are, that person wouldn’t reveal his HIV-positive status to begin with.

    On the contrary, a person who reveals his positive status to you already displayed honesty, so there is a good chance he at least thinks he is undetectable. Of course, you cannot be sure if he is telling the truth unless he just came back from his latest lab test with the receipts to prove it. Just as he cannot be sure that you are HIV-negative unless you have done the same."

    http://www.hivequal.org/hiv-equal-online/asktyler-what-if-he-s-lying-about-being-undetectable-613

    BTW because I am HIV Undetectable, if you lie about YOUR status, it's irrelevant to me if you are Negative, POZ, POZ Undetectable or on PrEP. But I prefer the last three.
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    Jun 03, 2016 12:42 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]TIMinPS said[/cite]Art_Deco said The key message I hear from this HIV doctor is that you can't rely on the other guy telling you that he's undetectable.

    On the contrary, a person who reveals his positive status to you already displayed honesty, so there is a good chance he at least thinks he is undetectable. Of course, you cannot be sure if he is telling the truth unless he just came back from his latest lab test with the receipts to prove it. Just as he cannot be sure that you are HIV-negative unless you have done the same."

    http://www.hivequal.org/hiv-equal-online/asktyler-what-if-he-s-lying-about-being-undetectable-613

    I would like you to talk about the other factors of which an HIV positive man who "at least believes he is undetectable. I am particularly interested in how the presence of other infections and of course the many medical conditions commonly of which can effect the viral load in the blood or potentially not effect the blood levels but other bodily fluids and the risks associated.
    I
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    Jun 03, 2016 7:32 PM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 said[quote][cite]TIMinPS said[/cite]Art_Deco said The key message I hear from this HIV doctor is that you can't rely on the other guy telling you that he's undetectable.

    On the contrary, a person who reveals his positive status to you already displayed honesty, so there is a good chance he at least thinks he is undetectable. Of course, you cannot be sure if he is telling the truth unless he just came back from his latest lab test with the receipts to prove it. Just as he cannot be sure that you are HIV-negative unless you have done the same."

    http://www.hivequal.org/hiv-equal-online/asktyler-what-if-he-s-lying-about-being-undetectable-613

    I would like you to talk about the other factors of which an HIV positive man who "at least believes he is undetectable. I am particularly interested in how the presence of other infections and of course the many medical conditions commonly of which can effect the viral load in the blood or potentially not effect the blood levels but other bodily fluids and the risks associated.
    I


    Simply some people think they are Undetectable just by starting ART. It takes 6 months for some to reach Undetectable, some will not. They jump the gun. Others stop, or don't take enough of their meds, and viral load increases. That is from homelessness or drugs (meth) usually, instability of some sort.

    HIV and syphilis are common co-infections. Many people who get HIV also get syphilis initially. They are transmitted the same ways. I don't think (my opinion) either affects the transmission, other than an open sore from Syphilis brings a blood delivery system. People get HIV and not STDs and vice versa. But once on ART or PrEP HIV is reduced to nearly ZERO, but not syphilis or other STIs.

    In the Partners Study (note above) there were many cases of STDs, but ZERO cases of HIV transmission from their HIV+ Undetectable partner. This holds true in other studies. NO HIV but STDs are still transmitted. Certainly colds and the flu have been common, and as with STDs they did not lead to HIV transmissions either because there were ZERO cases of HIV transmission.

    "the many medical conditions commonly of which can effect the viral load in the blood or potentially not...." I'm not sure what you are getting at.

    But....."Different test methods often give different results for the same patient sample. To be comparable the same test method (Target amplification, probe specific amplification, or signal amplification) should be used each time a patient specimen is run. Ideally patient testing should be conducted at the same medical laboratory, using the same viral load test and analyzer. Time of day, fatigue, and stress can also affect viral load values. Recent immunizations or infections can affect the viral load test. Testing should be postponed for at least four weeks after an immunization or infection."

    I've been tested many times over the last decade. I've been Undetectable on all. I think they've been the same lab. But I'm pretty sure I've been stressed and had a cold or flu. And been immunized. Have my numbers changed? Probably, but not significantly. They are still under 50. They may have been lower. Then perhaps my <48 was a spike from 40. Remember the Partner's Study was <200 without HIV transmission. There is no established threshold from viral load to infection, but none have occurred under 200.

    If I was deathly ill from the flu and couldn't keep food or my meds down, that certainly could cause my viral load to increase. If it was for day or two it wouldn't be much of a problem. A week, yes. Simply put, any illness that prevents me from taking my meds will cause an increase in viral load. Chemo perhaps?

  • Triggerman

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    Jun 08, 2016 3:35 AM GMT
    I hate to say it, but I don't sleep with guys with HIV. Have dinner with them, Hike Yosemite with them, do a road trip with them and such. I lived through that era, came out negative, I have no interest in it. I came out of that era when everyone was positive. Everyone I knew. Watched good friends die. I don't sleep with HIV guys undetectable or not. I don't judge people, you could have zicka. I just have no interest in getting a virus. Common cold, flu. HIV.
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

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    Jun 16, 2016 2:23 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidI hate to say it, but I don't sleep with guys with HIV. Have dinner with them, Hike Yosemite with them, do a road trip with them and such. I lived through that era, came out negative, I have no interest in it. I came out of that era when everyone was positive. Everyone I knew. Watched good friends die. I don't sleep with HIV guys undetectable or not. I don't judge people, you could have zicka. I just have no interest in getting a virus. Common cold, flu. HIV.


    You claim to "hate to say it" but how many times are we going to see you announce on the threads that you don't have sex with men living with HIV? This has to be the third time I've seen you say something you "hate to say." Just by repetition alone it appears you actually like saying it.
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    Jun 18, 2016 8:32 PM GMT
    The irony is you are safer with an HIV+ person who is Undetectable. Even more than someone who tested negative recently.

    Don't believe him? Then don't go home with him. But just out of curiosity ask what meds he is on! Prezista? Complera? Stibild? Genvoya? When last labs were done? How long have you been Undetectable?

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    Jun 19, 2016 12:56 PM GMT
    TIMinPS saidThe irony is you are safer with an HIV+ person who is Undetectable. Even more than someone who tested negative recently.

    Don't believe him? Then don't go home with him. But just out of curiosity ask what meds he is on! Prezista? Complera? Stibild? Genvoya? When last labs were done? How long have you been Undetectable?



    TiminPS, you have once again managed to state some useful information that everyone should be clued up on. I learned much of that information from speaking to doctors who are experts in HIV treatment at hospitals where incidences of HIV infected patients are relatively common. However, you again went and undone your good work with an incidious selective quote of which is conveniently taken out of context. If men where to take your advice, given the context of an increasing prevelance of BB anal sex taking into considering your informative advice in your previous comment, a new epidemic would begin on account of the fact that men would become complacent about Safer sex, by way of believing they are safe just because the guy they want to sleep with insists he has a UVL. UVL neg, Poz without a UVL is only a risk factor during BB sex. You recently posted your reply to a young man who was persuing sex with you and I quote (26yr old ) "you guys still use condoms don't you?" Your reply "condoms are so 1980's..........". Yet you claim not to be in favour of a BB sexual revolution huh!
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    Jun 19, 2016 12:56 PM GMT
    TIMinPS saidThe irony is you are safer with an HIV+ person who is Undetectable. Even more than someone who tested negative recently.

    Don't believe him? Then don't go home with him. But just out of curiosity ask what meds he is on! Prezista? Complera? Stibild? Genvoya? When last labs were done? How long have you been Undetectable?



    TiminPS, you have once again managed to state some useful information that everyone should be clued up on. I learned much of that information from speaking to doctors who are experts in HIV treatment at hospitals where incidences of HIV infected patients are relatively common. However, you again went and undone your good work with an incidious selective quote of which is conveniently taken out of context. If men where to take your advice, given the context of an increasing prevelance of BB anal sex taking into considering your informative advice in your previous comment, a new epidemic would begin on account of the fact that men would become complacent about Safer sex, by way of believing they are safe just because the guy they want to sleep with insists he has a UVL. UVL neg, Poz without a UVL is only a risk factor during BB sex. You recently posted your reply to a young man who was persuing sex with you and I quote (26yr old ) "you guys still use condoms don't you?" Your reply "condoms are so 1980's..........". Yet you claim not to be in favour of a BB sexual revolution huh!
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    Jun 19, 2016 9:36 PM GMT
    Oh Sydney!!!!
    "If men where to take your advice, given the context of an increasing prevelance of BB anal sex taking into considering your informative advice in your previous comment, a new epidemic would begin on account of the fact that men would become complacent about Safer sex, by way of believing they are safe just because the guy they want to sleep with insists he has a UVL."

    I'm not telling anyone to accept anyone's stated status......ESPECIALLY NEGATIVE. Not Undetectable either. If you don't know them well enough to ask about their bio-metric care (PrEP?TasP?) and have a meaningful discussion you should either use condoms or not have sex at all.

    That you say the UVL guy is "insisting" (and lying) is the negative narrative of stigma.....that HIV people want to infect others. I don't want one more infection in the world. If someone doesn't believe me, that's fine. I usually start out just saying I'm POZ. That usually blows the dickheads out of the water....BYE! Some can't differentiate POZ from POZ UVL. The next part of the conversation (if there is one) is about treatment/prevention and what they know about it, for them and me.

    Nowadays I find they are either Undetectable themselves or on PrEP. But some on PrEP are paranoid. They want 1000% protection. Some who are Negative are OK with UVL, some seek us out as partners, some can't be in the same room. I expect questions, good ones. If I mention the "TasP care cascade" and they look clueless it isn't going to work.

    I have no problem sharing medical information (meds I'm on, years undetectable, T-cells, etc.) I can show it on my phone from the K-P app. I EXPECT everyone to be fully informed.

    That is not being complacent.

    If you quote me, provide the link. You have provided false quotes attributed to me in the past. A bareback revolution??? Are you trying for a stupid sound bite?