Can gay people believe in the Bible???

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    Apr 03, 2007 2:39 AM GMT
    Can gay people believe in the Bible and everything it stands for??

    If you do believe in the Bible, what are your interpretations of it's views on same sex intercourse and "marriage."

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    Apr 03, 2007 3:35 AM GMT
    Yeah, I believe that everyone who believes in God can believe in the bible. If God didn't wanted to have gay people on this world He wouldn't, but He has. Remember that the bible was written by man, and the only person who can judges by our actions and beliefs is God. Hope I answer your question...
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    Apr 03, 2007 3:58 AM GMT
    Do you mean can you be gay and believe in Christian Dogma? The Bible is a book of fiction.

    Since the Bible does not contain stories about same sex marriages, it would be a serious mistake to fashion our male/male relationships according to marriage as depicted in the Bible.

    We need to find books that offer better role models. If you believe in Christian Dogma, you're chasing after a heterosexual dream and all the myths associated with it, and that leads to mental illness.
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    Apr 03, 2007 4:30 AM GMT
    What a great and loaded question. But, I'm glad to see it pop up on this site. As a practicing Christian and "Bible Believer," I will say a couple of things I've come to realize along the way. Keep in mind that these are my thoughts and interpretations, and as such, are in no way a flat truth.

    The bible talks a couple times about the "act" of sex with men. Each time it talks about sex with men, it refers to the act only, and does not talk at all about male to male romantic relationships. In fact. The word "homosexual" wasn't a term that existed during the ancient Roman period. Christ came to establish a countercultural way of living. During these times it was common for men to have sexual relations with boys, and then go off to get married later on. Not only that, but men would have sex with women, and women with women outside of marriage. God speaks out all, esteeming a more fulfilling way to live, one in which is countercultural.

    The bible is full of culture. It was a book written by men. We write to our experience, and we write in terms of what we know. This doesn't undermine the authority of God. In fact it enhances it- that God can speak even through the least of men, shows the true miraculous nature of God. Keeping this in mind, we have to find the undercurrents of truth that are brought to light through the bible. The bible esteems monogomy. It esteems sex in the terms of a loving relationship. It esteems forgiveness, compassion, gentleness, self-control, and wisdom.

    For so long Christianity has come to be known for what it's "against" and not for what it promotes and esteems. Christ says the ulimate command is to love the Lord with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. God is Love in its truist form. Every time such love is shared between two people, God is right there amidst it.

    Being gay has come to be known for promiscuous sex, drug use, risky behavior, and a different set of morals. And why these things seem to exist in our community, they are not what define someone as gay.

    To be in relationship with God means to esteem the things that He esteems, it means to walk intimately alongside Him, letting Him guide your life wherever it may go, and to be willing to follow Him wherever He may take us.

    This is countercultural to a gay community that does not believe in monogomy or sex within a loving relationship. It is countercultural to todays society period. Sex is the most intimate thing two people can share. God esteeming monogomy is speaking to that intimacy. And, sharing such a vulnerable part of us needs trust with another person (no matter of sexual orientation).

    If these are things that you want to uphold in your life, then following Christ and living by the bible can co-exist. If they are not, it will be very hard to reconcile the two together. We live in a community that thinks you can't be Christian and gay. And modern Christianity speaks the same thing. So I find myself Ostracized by two communities that are a part of who I am. This is why so many people feel the pressure to "choose."

    It's hard to be a Christian and gay. Mainly because the two run in completely different arenas. Reconciling the two can be very hard, and truth be told, it's something that most people can never really do. I am still in the process of figuring it all out. And, I don't have all the answers. In fact, the older I get, the more questions I have, and the less answers I think I have. And yet, I've found a strange comfort in that. True religion, not "modern Christianity," was created to provide a space to question. And in our questions, we create a space for God to dwell. And that's where true living takes place.

    God is a loving god, and He desires our love and communion above anything. This is what God esteems, and if that is our focus, everything else will fall into place.

    Thanks for reading my thoughts...

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    Apr 03, 2007 5:17 AM GMT
    We should take time to remind ourselves that only God can judge us in the end and the views or beliefs of others are not what ultimately determine our fate. Those who preach aspects of the Bible to others in an authoritative manner characteristic of a dictator are afraid for their own salvation. I believe it is healthy to question one’s faith and the views of others to ensure false information is not being given.

    Since the majority of Christians have the selfish need to reach heaven, they will not question the authority of those preaching the Bible. This also means they must go with the majority and denounce the gay community for what is supposedly sinful behaviour. You have just as much of a right to be a Christian as anyone else on this Earth. No sin is greater than the next and therefore we are all sinners in the end regardless of what one believes. If you know you are a moral person who makes mistakes some times then you don’t need the reassurance of the Christian community. I find it amusing that gay people are told they are going to hell yet the Bible verses which reinforce this idea are never quoted by these ignorant individuals. We are all ignorant, not just those who despise the gay community.
  • TallGWMvballe...

    Posts: 1925

    Apr 03, 2007 6:25 AM GMT
    WOW TOFUSTUD, I completely agree with you and what193 interesting take on the myth and it should be used as a point to christians who hate us so much. rhythm1438, you poor deluded, brainwashed person.
    You are correct about "The word "homosexual" wasn't a term that existed during the ancient Roman period."

    BUT in the bible it DOES say, "If a man lies with another man as a woman he should be stoned" (meaning killed by mobs hitting your body with rocks which was a customary way of killing in that time period)
    Most christian dogma says we are sinners, against god and will burn in the other place of ancient legend myth they called hell.

    If you chose to believe in the adult imaginary friend, the father figure in the sky and other christian dogma, know that this book was essential a series of letters and recollections often written long after the events depicted and by people who did NOT witness these events.
    Because few were literate in those times, history, current events, news and stories were passed by word of mouth and the tellers had their OWN agenda to make happen and would embellish as they saw fit and THEN later they were translated by other people with motivation to control and keep their own power and wealth. The literate were moved to control money and power by spreading these stories and enhanced or out right made up what they felt they needed to accomplish that task.

    being Gay and christian is akin to being a Jew and joining the Nazi party in Germany and is counter to logic.
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    Apr 03, 2007 6:43 AM GMT
    Well TallGWM, those are some harsh words...

    Like I said...those were my thoughts and what I have come to believe. If you disagree with them, that is fine, and it is alright with me.

    The thing that dissapoints me is that a website like this was made to bring gay men together, not devide them. I wish people's views could be respected even when there are those that disagree with them.

    Obviously that is expecting too much. I think it's good to disagree, it makes us question our own beliefs and widen our horizon of understanding.

    I hope that this site can become more about that then about derisive talk...

    I respect your thoughts TallGWM. I'm sorry that you have felt so much hatred from Christians. That's a horrible thing. I hope you have found people that are supportive and encouraging of you and your life.

    best wishes...
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    Apr 03, 2007 7:28 AM GMT
    One more thing TallGWM, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning behind stating that I've been "brainwashed." I mean, I really am interested. What are your thoughts on that?

    I'd argue to say that my thoughts are not what you'd find in Christianity today, and obviously, as you have spoken, are not shared within the gay community either. So, where did I get brainwashed?

    Just an observation and a question...
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    Apr 03, 2007 8:27 AM GMT
    being an agnostic, and looking in from the outside, I'd say no. The bible makes it pretty clear that its not ok to be gay. And a far as picking and choosing what you believe in the bible, thats fine and dandy, but if I actually beleived in god and christianity and going to heaven based on how god wants someone to live, I would rather not take chances because according to christianity life is just a blink of an eye while the afterlife is eternity.
  • Laurence

    Posts: 942

    Apr 03, 2007 10:56 AM GMT
    I think Gay people can believe in whatever they like - it's a free country (or world...or at least a lot of the democratic bit is).

    I agree with a couple of the other posters though, that the bible condemns homosexuality. So I am not going to believe in anything that condemns me and my lifestyle.

    There are lots of religions, how can one be true and all the others be wrong? I think that being Gay and believing in any religion shows a complete lack of intelligence.


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    Apr 03, 2007 11:58 AM GMT
    Well, theres a few things i'd like to comment on here....

    Firstly, Tall where do you get off slating anyone as a 'poor deluded and brainwashed'? You, especially after posting a topic where you preached acceptance and the need for everyone answering every single email they recieved, you preached about being accepted and being generous and kind and courteous. And then you post here that someone is 'poor deluded and brainwashed' that hardly paints you in a good light. EVERYONE is entitled to there own beliefs, no matter which way there belief takes them. If you want to attack something then attack the system in which they find there beliefs, the process in which the belief was given to them, And i do expect some type of silly retribution from you, from reading your posts you always pull some silly rebuke from somewhere.

    Secondly, Man created God as a He, Man created Dogma as a control to lead people, to put them in a box that means 'we are those who stand here'. The one thing that is singluar in most religions is the idea of one God, but what makes this idea of God different in each religion? Basically not is the rules to worship and find the way to God that differ, again a process divided my Man. God (or your idea of God) is not the enemy here, the cause of the problem is Man and our misunderstanding and ignorance of each other that segregates us and leads to hate.

    A prime example, because someone here states his belief in Christianity and its doctrine ,you Tall, call him poor deluded and brainwashed.

    EVERYONE is entitled to there beliefs, in the end, they will all meet there maker and then there human ideals will be tested against what is truly real.

    And finally.....phew.....I feel that honestly religions divide us, God exists but not as a man on a chair in the clouds, i may be wrong, but hey thats for me to find out.

    Religions may divide us, but each does have some of the moralities that i abide by, not all from one religion, but some from many.
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    Apr 03, 2007 2:14 PM GMT
    The Bible is just a book... Take what you want from it, but it was written by the hands of men.

    We have created God in our own image - not the other way around. I believe the the point to life is to experience it and discover who you are. When your body and mind dies, perhaps your soul moves on to seek a greater truth.

    There is no need to worry about man-made concepts like 'right and wrong' ,'heaven and hell', 'judgment', etc.... too many people are scared of what they don't understand and therefore cling to religion to give them answers.

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    Apr 03, 2007 2:26 PM GMT
    Wow, thanks for all the responses to this topic. I was hoping it would create some insightful discussion, as it has. But what's with the bashing and criticizing of others and their beliefs?? However....there is a little bit of truth in these posts, even the negative ones.
    I agree with what 0wl1975 said about picking and choosing what to believe. But to go beyond that, that isn't something you can do and believe in the bible. If you're going to believe the Bible was written by man who was spoken to by God you have to believe in it's entirety. Even the little story about Noah building an ark all by himself big enough to fit two of every animal in the world.
    I think someone made the comment about being "brainwashed" that a couple of people took offense to. You have to agree that there is some truth behind this statement. A lot of people were raised from birth in a religious environment. So it was put in their head early on that God exists and you must live by his word to reach heaven and be a good person. Is this not brainwashing???? If you ask me, organized religion (all of them) are simply cults. Think about it, everyone stands, kneels, prays, and chants songs at the same time. Is this not a cult??? And people get brainwashed....easily. I'm not saying everyone who believes are brainwashed, but a lot of them are. sorry if I offended anyone...just wanted to put my two cents in.
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    Apr 03, 2007 2:50 PM GMT
    Theres a very fine line in the definition of brainwashing.

    You maybe right on the concept that people where brought up brainwashed, but you have to take into account that people ACCEPT a religion and there is no need to then slander them for there choice of beliefs, if you think that they are brainwashed or not.

    This is not a direct attack on you, this is just a statement about brainwashing and acceptance.

    Brainwashing suggests forced belief. If you accept a belief system on your own terms then you are not brainwashed.
  • trebor965

    Posts: 200

    Apr 03, 2007 3:26 PM GMT
    i am not saying what people should or shouldn't do, but if you are close to a bible, and feel as if you should open it or touch it then you should RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN UNTIL YOU ARE LOST AND SLEEPING!
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    Apr 03, 2007 3:29 PM GMT
    There a lot more hypocritical books of doctrine out there as well
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    Apr 03, 2007 4:07 PM GMT
    Great views guys, I can really see the validity in what y'all are saying.

    peterstrong, you bring up some great points. Levitical law was broken with the life and death of Christ. Christ teachings say that He came to abolish the law, not to establish it. Christ says that the law is slavery, and that He has come to free us from the law.

    For me, I consider myself a follower of the teachings of Christ. Never have there been accounts during Jesus's life where He speaks out against homosexuals. He never even goes there. We see Christ living with the harlets, the diseased, the so called "sinners" of the culture. Christ speaks of many things, but never same sex relationships. I feel if it were as important as Christians make it today, then Christ would have said something about it. But He didn't.

    That makes me think that it wasn't as important as the things He tried to teach while He was alive- like serving the poor, and loving your neighbor.

    Religion was instituted by men, and it falls drastically short of encompassing religion can do that. Man created religion as a way to interact with God, and somewhere along the way, it got really screwed up. But just because man condemns you, doesn't mean God does. And just because religion falls short, doesn't mean God does. You must take each one seperately and figure out what you believe. You shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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    Apr 03, 2007 5:08 PM GMT
    I feel God is only the one who will judge us. I believe he created all of us. If you beleive that there is a power greater than us, then you have god in in heart. I don't rely on the bible,its been rewritten so many times. I rely on the goodness of people who are christian like (and dont hate nor judge) and don't harm others. But thats my opinion. Thanks
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    Apr 03, 2007 7:07 PM GMT
    I just wanted to add that I am certain that the two are not mutually exclusive. I do think that given the ostracism we face from both the orthodox christian conservatives, and the opposite pull of hedonism from some in the gay world, that it is important to find a spiritual home that is truly open and accepting of gays and lesbians, at the same time being a real church (not just another venue to meet gay people). I for one have found such a home in the United Church of Christ, and I am sure there are many other mainline liberal protestant churches that share the celebration of all of God's people.
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    Apr 03, 2007 7:21 PM GMT
    They say

    I get upset, irritated, angry or depressed if I am not worshipped or treated as if I were better than everyone else.
    I am thrilled when I am called “o great king,” sung to, adored, and told how wonderful, perfect and marvelous I am and that everyone is unworthy of even looking at my face.

    If you don’t do what I say, you will be sent to a dreadful prison-like place or a lake of fire and made to suffer constantly - after your death.
    This dark kingdom is governed by a Darth Vader type character and an army of ugly monsters equipped with horns, claws, and sharp teeth which bite very hard.

    If you do everything I say without question, and basically become my personal clone, you will be rewarded - after your death - by going to the most wonderful place you could possibly dream of.
    This place is governed by me as some kind of flawless king, and an army of perfect people dressed in white.
    There is also a special group who follow me around falling on their faces 24-7 while saying repeatedly “how great you are.”

    The armies of both these kingdoms sometimes have wars against each other using metal weapons, spears and others that hurt badly.
    They also even have flying horses!
    (By the way, please tell me why weapons which cause pain or death, or scary creatures that can bite, scratch or poke if we are all supposedly already dead and no longer able to feel pain?)

    They say I divided people into 2 categories; the chosen and the un-chosen - or “sheep and goats.”
    After death the chosen ones would be able to sit beside me in my great king throne, and the un-chosen would be disposed of like burning weeds or put in the trash.

    They say I had my only son tortured and killed as a human sacrifice, for a mistake the first two humans made thousands of years ago, and of which everyone on the planet is still guilty.
    This execution fixed the problem somehow because of the seemingly tribal or cannibal ritual of an exchange of blood for error.

    But worst of all - this is only the tip of the iceberg of all the strange things they say I am or do!

    They are not even talking about Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin, or some other politician with a strong VIP complex.
    In fact anyone with who thinks or talks like this would be medicated, and locked away in a safe place.

    But damn! This is the strange role humans place on me - or that which they call their God.

    Mother earth, please save me from my followers and their morbid mythologies.

    - God
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    Apr 03, 2007 7:28 PM GMT
    IMO, judgment is a function of ego. It is duality. The concept of a God that judges is a projection of human duality on to nonduality. As mentioned before, the Bible is a book, written by men, that reflects the values of a particular culture. It is only through superstition and magical thinking that the Bible is believed to be an Absolute in this dualistic realm of ever-changing, uncertain, relative existence.
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    Apr 03, 2007 8:28 PM GMT
    What I wrote is basically Advaita 101, but it does reflect my own understanding based on the experiences of my spiritual journey.
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    Apr 03, 2007 11:38 PM GMT
    extreemmmly interesting,,,it would be ,nice if all of you ,will give your own description of God,,,but in few words, sort off a dictionary descrition ......GOD = pure love,pure love dont judge,dont hate,dont punish
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    Apr 04, 2007 12:46 AM GMT
    Great question Rhythm, and I both appreciate and can totally relate to your answers.

    There is a wonderful book written by Samuel Kader called “Openly Gay Openly Christian.” As I sought to reconcile my faith with my sexuality, this book helped me tremendously.

    I consider myself extremely fortunate to have grown up and since then been involved in churches that encouraged personal thought and discovery. The idea that you don’t question God, or your preacher/priest, is not only preposterous to me, it’s downright un-Biblical. David (Psalms) had full-out arguments with God as did many of the prophets, and one could argue even Christ himself. Every pastor I’ve had has said from the pulpit, don’t take what I say as the truth – go home, research it, read about it, discover it for yourself.

    Good Christians do their homework – they research the facts, they read the philosophies, and they consider how The Bible interacts with all they know and have read, and then they make their decisions. Bad Christians take what someone in authority tells them as “gospel” and end all discussions there.

    Taken out of context The Bible forbids just about everything, especially the Old Testament… But contextually understanding the circumstances surrounding The Bible helps us understand the overall meanings and concepts of what the authors were speaking. Also, to be a Christian, you have to believe in the Holy Spirit, as the Bible was written by men “inspired by God” – aka The Holy Spirit. (I can hear some of you going saying Magical fantasy myths… you have your beliefs that have been reinforced through your experiences… Christians have theirs as well…)

    Having a context helps us understand that when Paul wrote his letter to The Romans he created a slang word to describe some sort of sinful behavior. (sort of the equivalence of how we used “Reaganomics” to describe the US Government’s economical theories in the 80s – not a real word… but understood by everyone at the time.) Paul’s word choice literally translated meant “Lift-couch” or “Lift-soft” somehow overtime, this word was translated to “Homosexuality” – and not all translations use “Homosexuality” either.

    Ug – I’m slightly frustrated with this post because I feel like I have to stick with generalizations when deeper explorations into these things are needed.

    Anyway… For me, personally, my personal walk through my Christian faith has shown me that I’m saved by faith, not by what I do. It’s faith that’s most important, everything else is secondary. My own studies through The Bible have reinforced that and continue to reinforce it.

    Regarding homosexuality today, I sincerely believe that many gay men and women are held back from experiencing a rich and fulfilling life of faith by churches and pastors that tell them they must change in order to be saved. I know, I was one of them for years, and what I experienced was the biggest stumbling block I’ve ever seen. Not feeling like I was ever “good enough” for God because I couldn’t get over being gay. I kept trying and kept failing. In the meantime all of these other “sins” kept festering and coming up in dangerous and “secret” ways… late night secret trips to the bookstore, to the bathhouse, to the cruise areas, calls to sexlines, and other things. The secrecy and the guilt were destroying me. Instead of focusing my attention on finding out why I was turning to those things for fulfillment, I was all-consumed with not being gay.

    When I realized that God loved me as I AM, and that I should stop trying to change and just love him, and focus on my relationship with him first and my sexuality second, it felt like the weight of a thousand churches was lifted off of my back. The stumbling block was gone and I was able to move forward. Little by little the secrets slowly went away and I felt a greater sense of peace than I had known in years. That moment to me is what convinced me that God is ready, willing, and excited to embrace gay people. It’s too bad the “church” is too blinded by tradition and religion to understand that.

    And… on another note… all this talk has been about the New Testament, Christian Bible… A lot of which can be reconciled through Christ’s love/death/resurrection, etc….

    I’m VERY curious to hear from a gay person who is a practicing Jew… How do YOU reconcile the Torah with homosexuality? After all, Leviticus, Exodus, Deuteronomy – the absolute WORST versus on Homosexuality are part of the Torah.
  • dfrourke

    Posts: 1062

    Apr 04, 2007 3:12 AM GMT God...some of you wrote books on this topic...

    ...I'll spare a virtual tree and just say the following about what I believe...

    1. It is a history book...
    2. Written by men and women [although some of the chapters depending on which version you read are discarded]...
    3. It prescribes a set of values some of which still ring true today [The golden rule: treat others the way you would want to be treated yourself] and others which are very archaic and do not fit in a pluralistic society like the US [sanctioning some forms of slavery, or that homosexuality is an abomination]...

    It is just a book which needs to be interpreted and revised for each generation...and so long as its words are not used for political legislation without the values being revised so as to be meaningful for all citizens, I can support it and see why it is an important teaching tool...

    - David