Jerusalem was NEVER an Arab Capital, not even of Jund Filastin ~1,000 years ago, a military district of foreign Arab empires that occupied Israel (Spain was occupied for longer, and more recently)

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 14, 2016 3:55 AM GMT
    AyaTroLiar> explain to us how a territory stretching from south of Gaza virtually to Acre covered "just the southern half of post WW I Mandate Palestine"

    ROTFL.

    1. Jund Filastin, the military district of foreign Arab EMPIRES who invaded, conquered, OCCUPIED and colonized this land, did NOT reach anywhere near Acre, not even to Haifa. The border was roughly half-way between Jaffa and Haifa, north of Caesarea.

    2. It excluded the fertile Esdraelon valley and Galilee, Nazareth, Safed, Beit She'an, Tiberias, Jenin... at times even Nablus!
    These were all in Jund al-Urdunn, NOT in Jund Filastin.


    Let's again review the data:

    Muqaddasi> [985 CE] The District of al-Urdunn. Its capital is Tahariyya [Tveria/Tiberias]. Among its towns are Qadas, Sur [Tyre], Akka [Akko/Acre], al-Lajjun, Kabul, Baysan [Beit She'an]

    Muqaddasi> [985 CE] The District of Filastin. Its capital is al-Ramla. Its towns... Amman.

    Gerber> [1496 CE] It stretched from Anaj, a point near al-Arish, to Lajjun, south of the Esdraelon valley. It was thus clearly equivalent to the Jund Filastin of classical Islam.

    AyaTrolLiar> [oops]

    The questions remain unanswered:
    3. When and how did "Palestine" come to include what today is northern Israel?!
    4. When and how did it come to exclude what today is southern Jordan and its capital Amman?!


    Don't expect an answer from the spam propaganda trolls (who can't defend yet won't change the misleading title of their thread claiming that Jerusalem was, as if forever, the capital of "Palestine").


    5. Contemplate the ridiculous claim that Jesus of Nazareth (a Jew from Judea) was "Palestinian".
    Despite dying more than 100 years before the Romans (European occupiers!) renamed Judea as "Palestine".
    And Nazareth NOT being in Jund Filastin.


    ATLF> [has nothing]


    AyaTrolLiar> al-MuqadassI, The Best Divisions for Knowledge of the Regions (interesting title eh?)

    6. While the AyaTrolLiar pretends that Jund Filastin wasn't part of Syria (Al Sham), and while he celebrates the title of Muqaddasi's book (as usual failing to gain any depth beyond), he neglects that "Regions" refers to within the Islamic Empire, and that "Filastin" isn't a even region but a DISTRICT of the Al-Sham (Syria) "Region".

    ATLF> [runs]


    7. Under the foreign Arab empires who invaded, conquered and occupied the land (ruling it from afar), there was a formal military district called "Filastin" (which was roughly "equivalent" - to use Gerber's word - to today's southern Israel and southern Jordan - including Amman). That ended in the 11th century. Thereafter there was knowledge of this former formal district, in the form of a vague geographic area.

    Today there is a formal "district" in Michigan known as "Wayne County".
    That doesn't mean there is a "Waynist" ethnic group.
    That doesn't mean that in 1,000 years there needs to be a Wayne nation/state distinct from Michigan.
    (Let alone with half of Wayne County excluded, instead including half of Washtenaw County).

    ATLF> [hides back under his rock]


    Getting back to this thread:

    8. At the time that there was a formal district of Jund Falastin, a military district of foreign occupiers nearly 1,000 years ago, its capital was NOT Jerusalem but Ramle.

    9. Thereafter, how could Jerusalem be the "capital" of a "district" at a time that the district didn't exist?!


    550px-Medieval_Arab_Palestine.jpg

    jund-al-urdunn.jpg
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 14, 2016 3:56 AM GMT
    See also:

    "Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland
    and early-to-mid 20th century Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine".

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491

    Arabs (like Arabic) NOT indigenous to Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4019405

    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729

    Jerusalem
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/887747
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 14, 2016 3:56 AM GMT
    Their lies exposed, the run-around begins:

    GymFreak> It was capital of the British Mandate of Palestine for Jews and Arabs.
    1900s-1948 all the Jerusalem mayor were Palestinian Arabs.

    Thanks for confirming that Jerusalem was never in history an Arab capital, only that of the Mandate of Palestine which elsewhere you and the AyaTrolLiar decry as an imperial, colonialist, tool.

    While Jews have constituted a majority in Jerusalem since the 19th century (that's before 1900), they were not mayors because... Jews weren't allowed to hold such political office under Turkish rule. (It's not like the mayor was elected....)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 14, 2016 3:56 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> I can quote geographers describing Jerusalem as Palesrine's capital going back over 1,000 years, even at a time when administratively it was not

    LOL. Thus again confirming that Jerusalem never served as an Arab capital.

    And he never did manage to quote "geographers" stating that Jerusalem was the capital of "Palestine" "going back over 1,000 years". It wasn't. As we saw in the OP, the Arab geographers stated the capital was in Ramle.

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 14, 2016 3:57 AM GMT
    Then we get the changeup:

    GymFreak said
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Arab_Capital_of_Culture

    So not only was Jerusalem never in history an Arab administrative capital, it was only a "capital of culture" for 1 year, and not till 2009?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 14, 2016 4:26 AM GMT
    JPGC2007> [new tangent/diversion]

    Shall I take your silence and diversion as conceding all 9 points?

    JPGC2007 > I don't know your 9 points are for me.

    OK, so you can't disagree with them.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 14, 2016 11:15 PM GMT
    1. Jund Filastin, the military district of foreign Arab EMPIRES who invaded, conquered, OCCUPIED and colonized this land, did NOT reach anywhere near Acre, not even to Haifa. The border was roughly half-way between Jaffa and Haifa, north of Caesarea.

    AyaTrolLiar> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jund_Filastin#/media/File%3ASyria_in_the_9th_century.svg
    main-qimg-43796331a27d0bef5dcbfc247a138f

    Will you look at that? The person arguing that Filastin was distinct from Al Sham (Syria) - see #6 - is presenting a map of Syria to show us where the border of its Jund Filastin district was.

    Boorish about geography as he is everything else, the AyaTrolLiar fails to discern that he only proves my point #1. The city of Acre, on his map (drawn to a very large scale) is north of the lettering. The border (if you look carefully and know what you are looking at) is south of Haifa bay, and north of Ceasarea. Just as I said.

    Does he wish to try his luck with #2?

    2. It excluded the fertile Esdraelon valley and Galilee, Nazareth, Safed, Beit She'an, Tiberias, Jenin... at times even Nablus!
    These were all in Jund al-Urdunn, NOT in Jund Filastin.


    Yes, his map also shows the district of Jund al-Urdunn (within the Syria "region") and confirms what I said.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jun 15, 2016 1:31 AM GMT
    It's quite an overstated fact that many Palestinians were displaced prior and after 1947.

    There are folks still alive today who clearly remember being evicted from their homes of which they had lived in for years.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 16, 2016 12:07 AM GMT
    Arabs (not yet known as "Palestinians") started leaving in late 1947, due to Arab threats of violence.
    Very few were displaced before that, as has been discussed in other threads.

    But this thread is about Jerusalem, which was never in history an Arab capital, etc.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 17, 2016 4:41 AM GMT
    1. Jund Filastin, the military district of foreign Arab EMPIRES who invaded, conquered, OCCUPIED and colonized this land, did NOT reach anywhere near Acre, not even to Haifa. The border was roughly half-way between Jaffa and Haifa, north of Caesarea.

    AyaTrolLiar> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jund_Filastin#/media/File%3ASyria_in_the_9th_century.svg
    main-qimg-43796331a27d0bef5dcbfc247a138f

    Will you look at that? The person arguing that Filastin was distinct from Al Sham (Syria) - see #6 - is presenting a map of Syria to show us where the border of its Jund Filastin district was.

    AyaTrolLiar> the ridiculous claim that I "deny" it was considered a part of Sham (despite quoting from accounts at the time that Palestine was a PROVINCE, not a "military district", of Syria)?

    OK, so Falastin was just a military district, or "region" or now "province" of Syria.


    Boorish about geography as he is everything else, the AyaTrolLiar fails to discern that he only proves my point #1. The city of Acre, on his map (drawn to a very large scale) is north of the lettering. The border (if you look carefully and know what you are looking at) is south of Haifa bay, and north of Ceasarea. Just as I said.

    AyaTrolLiar> [flees]


    2. It excluded the fertile Esdraelon valley and Galilee, Nazareth, Safed, Beit She'an, Tiberias, Jenin... at times even Nablus!
    These were all in Jund al-Urdunn, NOT in Jund Filastin.


    Yes, his map also shows the district of Jund al-Urdunn (within the Syria "region") and confirms what I said.

    AyaTrolLiar> Jund Filastin lacked the southern Negev?

    Having been shown woefully wrong about the north, he now seeks to quibble about the south.

    As if he misses the point (that the Filastin/Urdunn division was North/South, not East/West as it is today) because he seeks to take my term "half" literally.

    Yes, he really is that dumb and that dull, for the cause!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 17, 2016 7:34 PM GMT
    With each new diversion, AyaTrolLiar founcer concedes that Jerusalem was never an Arab capital.

    Thus in their propaganda thread he is relegated to this paltry "evidence":

    > 1225 - "Filastin is the last of the provinces of Syria towards Egypt. Its capital is Jerusalem." -- Yaqut al-Hamawi, 'Dictionary of Geographies'

    Except, as already noted in that thread, in 1225 the region was under Kurdish Ayyubid rule and had no Filastin district.
    In fact, in 1219/1220 they razed Jerusalem to the ground (sparing only the Temple Mount area, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and David's citadel).

    > 1351: "Filastin, whose capital is Aelia (Jerusalem), eighteen miles from Ramla, which is the Holy City" -- Jamal al-Din Ahmed

    Except, as already noted in that thread, in 1351 the region was under Mamluk rule and had no Filastin district.
    Jerusalem still lay in ruins, which may explain the reference to its Roman name.
    Note further that he had to explain where Jerusalem was relative to Ramla!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 17, 2016 10:56 PM GMT
    One could only get such weak answers from someone who's brainless or whose brain has been addled and consumed by hate:

    In 1225 the region was under Kurdish Ayyubid rule and had no Filastin district.
    In fact, in 1219/1220 they razed Jerusalem to the ground (sparing only the Temple Mount area, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and David's citadel).


    AyaTrolLiar> Idiocy. "Filastin", these geographers confirm, EXISTED (whether as an official province or not), and its cultural and religious capital was considered to be Jerusalem.

    It's cultural capital was a ruin? What does that tell us about its actual capacity as a "capital"?!

    How does a geographic area (not an "official province" or "district") have a capital?
    What's the capital of southern Europe?
    What's the capital of the Midwest?


    In 1351 the region was under Mamluk rule and had no Filastin district.
    Jerusalem still lay in ruins, which may explain the reference to its Roman name.
    Note further that he had to explain where Jerusalem was relative to Ramla!


    AyaTrolLiar> Ahmed had just finished talking about Ramla

    What? He talked about another city before talking about the "cultural and religious capital"?!
    Obviously Ramla (the former official capital) was more relevant that the theoretical "capital" that was never before their capital and, for over 130 years, lay in ruin.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 18, 2016 3:31 AM GMT
    Someone, stuck in their mum's basement on a Friday night, sure is bored.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 18, 2016 6:43 AM GMT
    Seriously, this is the best they can do:

    GymFreak said
    I love Jerusalem the CAPITAL of Palestine!

    Mad Zionists, go fuck yourself!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 18, 2016 3:04 PM GMT
    "GymFreak" then deleted his post and re-entered it at Jun 18, 2016 2:56 AM EST, just to bump the thread again.
    (Note that my quote above predates that!)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 19, 2016 7:57 AM GMT
    In 1225 the region was under Kurdish Ayyubid rule and had no Filastin district.
    In fact, in 1219/1220 they razed Jerusalem to the ground (sparing only the Temple Mount area, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and David's citadel).


    AyaTrolLiar> Idiocy. "Filastin", these geographers confirm, EXISTED (whether as an official province or not), and its cultural and religious capital was considered to be Jerusalem.

    It's cultural capital was a ruin? What does that tell us about its actual capacity as a "capital"?!

    AyaTrolLiar> Not as an administrative capital

    QED

    AyaTrolLiar> but a cultural and spiritual capital.

    There was "culture" in a city they razed?

    Spiritual? Even today, Arabs in eastern Jerusalem turn their back on Jerusalem and pray toward Mecca.
    Their Quran doesn't even mention Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/887747


    Note further that his source continues:
    || Of the principal towns are Ashkelon, Ramle, Gaza, Arsuf, Caesarea, Nablus, Jericho, Amman, Jaffa and Beit Jibrin"

    The AyaTrolLiar has repeatedly insisted that Amman is NOT part of "Palestine".


    How does a geographic area (not an "official province" or "district") have a capital?
    What's the capital of southern Europe?
    What's the capital of the Midwest?


    AyaTrolLiar> a non-self-governing recognizable territory, technically governed from abroad

    QED (and not just "technically", it was previously a district of Syria, then a non-district of the Ayyubid (Kurdish) and Mamluk empires.


    AyaTrolLiar> known for its unique culture and traditions.

    So this "unique culture and traditions" were present in Amman 500 and 1,000 years ago, but not 100 years ago?

    An odd claim given that they claim the culture was "Arabized"

    Or that the borders of this "unique culture and traditions" were defined by European powers after WW I.

    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729

    Even 100 years ago an Arab in Acre (which wasn't in Filastin but was in Mandate Palestine) was culturally closer to an Arab in Tyre (Lebanon) than to one in Jericho. While an Arab in Jericho was closer to one in Amman (Jordan) than to on in Gaza. While an Arab in Gaza was closer to one in El Arish (Egypt) than to an Arab in Acre.


    In 1351 the region was under Mamluk rule and had no Filastin district.
    Jerusalem still lay in ruins, which may explain the reference to its Roman name.
    Note further that he had to explain where Jerusalem was relative to Ramla!


    AyaTrolLiar> Ahmed had just finished talking about Ramla

    What? He talked about another city before talking about the "cultural and religious capital"?!
    Obviously Ramla (the former official capital) was more relevant that the theoretical "capital" that was never before their capital and, for over 130 years, lay in ruin.

    AyaTrolLiar> Nor was the city uninhabited for all of 130 years.

    I didn't say it was "uninhabited", but do tell. How many people lived there in 1225 or 1351?


    AyaTrolLiar> His profile of Ramla (the former official administrative capital) reads like a formality. Whereas Jerusalem is presented as the "capital" of Palestine.

    I know this won't exactly shock anyone familiar with the AyaTrolLIAR founcer and his dishonest methods, but... he's blatantly lying. Ahmed had NOT "just finished talking about Ramla, nor was there any "formality" about Ramla (a city which was also called... Filastin). Let's look at what his source actually wrote:

    || The first town of Syria is Balis, and the last Al Arish, of Egypt. Syria is divided into five districts, namely: i. Filastin, whose capital is Aelia (Jerusalem), eighteen miles from Ramla, which is the Holy City, the metropolis of David and Solomon. Of its towns are Ashkelon, Hebron, Sebastia, and Nablus."

    His source wasn't talking about Ramla, let alone as a "formality", but discussing Syria - listing its divisions without specifying that each allegedly had its own "unique custom and traditions".

    What we see, again, is not just the AyaTrolLiar's inherent dishonesty, but his penchant to reverse the scientific method and invent "facts" to conform to his preconceived, biased and false notions.

    Consider further that these were the 2 descriptions that he found (his Wikipedia source lists more) that he could selectively quote and then twist to make it appear they support his lies. While ignoring the rest which made inconvenient statements such as (from 1220) " there are three Palestines, which are parts of Greater Syria. The first is that whose capital is Jerusalem, and this part is specially named Judaea". And again in c. 1350: "that part of Syria which is called Judaea and Palestine".

    Did you catch that? The primary "Palestine" = JUDAEA!

    Or repeated attestations that "Ramla is also known as Filastin".
    Perhaps this he considers just a "formality"?!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 19, 2016 11:30 PM GMT
    Having been caught LYING about what his own witnesses said (and having been shown to have ignored what dozens of others referenced by his source also said which contradicted his argument), the AyaTrolLIAR founcer now seeks to divert the discussion from whether Jerusalem was truly a "capital" (it wasn't, ever) to the significance of Jerusalem in Islam. That is extensively covered in this thread:

    Jerusalem
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/887747

    He's also lying about Jerusalem not being razed by the Ayyubids in 1219/1220. Destroying the entire city save a few holy sites. As he is lying about Jews destroying it.

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 20, 2016 10:34 AM GMT
    > 1225 - "Filastin is the last of the provinces of Syria towards Egypt. Its capital is Jerusalem." -- Yaqut al-Hamawi, 'Dictionary of Geographies'

    In 1225 the region was under Kurdish Ayyubid rule and had no Filastin district.
    In fact, in 1219/1220 they razed Jerusalem to the ground (sparing only the Temple Mount area, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and David's citadel).


    AyaTrolLiar> Idiocy. "Filastin", these geographers confirm, EXISTED (whether as an official province or not), and its cultural and religious capital was considered to be Jerusalem.

    Its cultural capital was a ruin? What does that tell us about its actual capacity as a "capital"?!

    AyaTrolLiar> Not as an administrative capital

    QED

    AyaTrolLiar> but a cultural and spiritual capital.

    There was "culture" in a city they razed?

    Spiritual? Even today, Arabs in eastern Jerusalem turn their back on Jerusalem and pray toward Mecca.
    Their Quran doesn't even mention Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/887747

    AyaTrolLiar> was already a centre of Arab and Islamic culture going back hundreds of years.

    Your source, writing about Jerusalem nearly 250 years earlier:

    Muqaddasi> the mosque is empty of worshipers… The Jews constitute the majority of Jerusalem’s population


    AyaTrolLiar> Jerusalem is the place to which Muslims believe Muhammad made the Night Journey (Isrā), and rose to Heaven, returning with part of the revelation from God (the Mir'āj)

    As shown in the Jerusalem link, that MYTH was a retroactive insertion. The destination of the "Night Journey" was to Al Aqsa, a metaphorical "furthest mosque". The mosque of that name in Jerusalem (in the "nearest land") wouldn't be built for nearly 100 years. The Dome of the Rock, which predated it, has 240m of Quranic inscriptions, but the "Night Journey" (allegedly to this site!) is not included. When it was built (just a few years before Al Aqsa), the site hadn't yet been associated with the "Night Journey"


    AyaTrolLiar> There is not a Muslim authority in the world that does not uphold the sanctity and unique status of Jerusalem in Islamic tradition.

    Its sanctity, and the reason it was the original direction of prayer, is on account of its Jewish history, the location of the Temple.
    (Oddly, though, the AyaTrolLiar has denied such.)

    But why are we talking about Islam?
    Is "Palestine" an Islamic state?
    Is Jerusalem an "Islamic capital"?

    Nazareth and Bethlehem are spiritual centers for Palestinian Arabs who are Christian.
    Maybe Bethlehem is a "spiritual capital", too? Or Nazareth, despite not being in Jund Filastin but Jund al-Urdunn?


    Note further that his source continues:
    || Of the principal towns are Ashkelon, Ramle, Gaza, Arsuf, Caesarea, Nablus, Jericho, Amman, Jaffa and Beit Jibrin"

    The AyaTrolLiar has repeatedly insisted that Amman is NOT part of "Palestine".


    How does a geographic area (not an "official province" or "district") have a capital?
    What's the capital of southern Europe?
    What's the capital of the Midwest?


    AyaTrolLiar> a non-self-governing recognizable territory, technically governed from abroad

    QED (and not just "technically", it was previously a district of Syria, then a non-district of the Ayyubid (Kurdish) and Mamluk empires.


    AyaTrolLiar> known for its unique culture and traditions.

    So this "unique culture and traditions" were present in Amman 500 and 1,000 years ago, but not 100 years ago?

    An odd claim given that they claim the culture was "Arabized"

    Or that the borders of this "unique culture and traditions" were defined by European powers after WW I.

    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729

    Even 100 years ago an Arab in Acre (which wasn't in Filastin but was in Mandate Palestine) was culturally closer to an Arab in Tyre (Lebanon) than to one in Jericho. While an Arab in Jericho was closer to one in Amman (Jordan) than to on in Gaza. While an Arab in Gaza was closer to one in El Arish (Egypt) than to an Arab in Acre.


    > 1351: "Filastin, whose capital is Aelia (Jerusalem), eighteen miles from Ramla, which is the Holy City" -- Jamal al-Din Ahmed

    In 1351 the region was under Mamluk rule and had no Filastin district.
    Jerusalem still lay in ruins, which may explain the reference to its Roman name.
    Note further that he had to explain where Jerusalem was relative to Ramla!


    AyaTrolLiar> Ahmed had just finished talking about Ramla

    What? He talked about another city before talking about the "cultural and religious capital"?!
    Obviously Ramla (the former official capital) was more relevant that the theoretical "capital" that was never before their capital and, for over 130 years, lay in ruin.

    AyaTrolLiar> Nor was the city uninhabited for all of 130 years.

    I didn't say it was "uninhabited", but do tell. How many Arabs lived there in 1225 or 1351?

    AyaTrolLiar> was populated

    How many Arabs?


    AyaTrolLiar> His profile of Ramla (the former official administrative capital) reads like a formality. Whereas Jerusalem is presented as the "capital" of Palestine.

    I know this won't exactly shock anyone familiar with the AyaTrolLIAR founcer and his dishonest methods, but... he's blatantly lying. Ahmed had NOT "just finished talking about Ramla, nor was there any "formality" about Ramla (a city which was also called... Filastin). Let's look at what his source actually wrote:

    || The first town of Syria is Balis, and the last Al Arish, of Egypt. Syria is divided into five districts, namely: i. Filastin, whose capital is Aelia (Jerusalem), eighteen miles from Ramla, which is the Holy City, the metropolis of David and Solomon. Of its towns are Ashkelon, Hebron, Sebastia, and Nablus."

    His source wasn't talking about Ramla, let alone as a "formality", but discussing Syria - listing its divisions without specifying that each allegedly had its own "unique custom and traditions".

    What we see, again, is not just the AyaTrolLiar's inherent dishonesty, but his penchant to reverse the scientific method and invent "facts" to conform to his preconceived, biased and false notions.

    Consider further that these were the 2 descriptions that he found (his Wikipedia source lists more) that he could selectively quote and then twist to make it appear they support his lies. While ignoring the rest which made inconvenient statements such as (from 1220) " there are three Palestines, which are parts of Greater Syria. The first is that whose capital is Jerusalem, and this part is specially named Judaea". And again in c. 1350: "that part of Syria which is called Judaea and Palestine".

    Did you catch that? The primary "Palestine" = JUDAEA!

    Or repeated attestations that "Ramla is also known as Filastin".
    Perhaps this he considers just a "formality"?!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 21, 2016 3:47 AM GMT
    Here is his post, elsewhere, in toto.
    I destroy it, point-by-point, in the following posts.

    AtaTrolLiar JTheM saidVery Ugly Pervert> As shown in the Jerusalem link, that MYTH was a retroactive insertion. The destination of the "Night Journey" was to Al Aqsa, a metaphorical "furthest mosque". The mosque of that name in Jerusalem (in the "nearest land") wouldn't be built for nearly 100 years.

    What an appalling ignorance of Islamic history and terminology.
    The "Farthest Sanctuary" ("al-Masjidu l-’Aqṣā") is not a reference to a building but a location.
    Not just a multitude of ʼaḥādīṯ (hadiths) but the earliest biographies of Muḥammad and most modern scholarship supports Jerusalem as the destination.

    It was the First Qibla to which Muḥammad ordered his followers to pray before the change to Mecca, and the concept of a fiery ladder ascending into Heaven hearkens back to Judeo-Christian tradition about Jacob ("Yaqūb"), an Islamic prophet and Ḥanīf who Muslims believe experienced a similar mystical trance on Mt. Moriah.

    Consider that the mount is the well-established meeting place between Man and God in the Judeo-Christian folklore out of which Islam grew, and Muḥammad was knowledgeable, and one understands why there are no other plausible candidates for its location.

    Israeli Jews cannot even pronounce the name right. They call it "Misgad el-Aktza".

    Very Ugly Pervert> The Dome of the Rock, which predated it, has 240m of Quranic inscriptions, but the "Night Journey" (allegedly to this site!) is not included. When it was built (just a few years before Al Aqsa), the site hadn't yet been associated with the "Night Journey"

    The site that is now the Dome of the Rock was a garbage dump by the time the Muslims took over (and managed to convince the Christians and Jews not to murder their children and destroy all the holy sites for the sake of Byzantine imperialism). It could have done with a renovation.

    Whether the story is a myth or not is irrelevant - it is the Islamic religious belief.
    Most Jewish and Christian religious traditions are fairy stories too (though unlike purely imaginary characters like Abraham and Moses, Muḥammad at least has the benefit of being an ascertainable figure in history).

    Thus because a few nephews of the Kurdish dynast Saladin wreaked havoc on Jerusalem for a very brief period a long time ago (Mongols and Kwarizmian Tatars were responsible for most of the damage), we are to ignore the role of Muslims as the prime embellishers and architects of the city?

    All because there is neither a Jewish nor Christian shrine anywhere in Jerusalem (or Palestine) that matches the splendor of the Dome of the Rock?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 21, 2016 3:47 AM GMT
    > 1225 - "Filastin is the last of the provinces of Syria towards Egypt. Its capital is Jerusalem." -- Yaqut al-Hamawi, 'Dictionary of Geographies'

    In 1225 the region was under Kurdish Ayyubid rule and had no Filastin district.
    In fact, in 1219/1220 they razed Jerusalem to the ground (sparing only the Temple Mount area, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and David's citadel).


    AyaTrolLiar> Idiocy. "Filastin", these geographers confirm, EXISTED (whether as an official province or not), and its cultural and religious capital was considered to be Jerusalem.

    Its cultural capital was a ruin? What does that tell us about its actual capacity as a "capital"?!

    AyaTrolLiar> Not as an administrative capital

    QED

    AyaTrolLiar> but a cultural and spiritual capital.

    There was "culture" in a city they razed?

    Spiritual? Even today, Arabs in eastern Jerusalem turn their back on Jerusalem and pray toward Mecca.
    Their Quran doesn't even mention Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/887747

    AyaTrolLiar> was already a centre of Arab and Islamic culture going back hundreds of years.

    Your source, writing about Jerusalem nearly 250 years earlier:

    Muqaddasi> the mosque is empty of worshipers… The Jews constitute the majority of Jerusalem’s population


    AyaTrolLiar> Jerusalem is the place to which Muslims believe Muhammad made the Night Journey (Isrā), and rose to Heaven, returning with part of the revelation from God (the Mir'āj)

    As shown in the Jerusalem link, that MYTH was a retroactive insertion. The destination of the "Night Journey" was to Al Aqsa, a metaphorical "furthest mosque". The mosque of that name in Jerusalem (in the "nearest land") wouldn't be built for nearly 100 years. The Dome of the Rock, which predated it, has 240m of Quranic inscriptions, but the "Night Journey" (allegedly to this site!) is not included. When it was built (just a few years before Al Aqsa), the site hadn't yet been associated with the "Night Journey"

    AyaTrolLiar> [attempts to argue the myth]

    Indeed, Muhammad's own relatives at the time denied that Jerusalem was the destination.

    AyaTrolLiar> Not just a multitude of ʼaḥādīṯ (hadiths) but the earliest biographies....

    In fact, one such story has Muhammad describe Jerusalem and the temple to the local Jews, who confirm he was really there. Problem is, there was no Temple at the time. As Umar found out when he conquered Jerusalem, the Byzantines (to punish the Jews who had again revolted and regained control of their capital for a few years) turned the site into a garbage dump. Yet none of the sources AyaTrolLiar founcer relies upon mentioned that?

    AyaTrolLiar> most modern scholarship supports Jerusalem as the destination.

    ROTFL. The nutcase thinks scholars believe that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem and ascended to heaven?!


    AyaTrolLiar> There is not a Muslim authority in the world that does not uphold the sanctity and unique status of Jerusalem in Islamic tradition.

    Its sanctity, and the reason it was the original direction of prayer, is on account of its Jewish history, the location of the Temple.
    (Oddly, though, the AyaTrolLiar has denied such.)

    AyaTrolLiar> the mount is the well-established meeting place between Man and God in the Judeo-Christian folklore out of which Islam grew, and Muḥammad was knowledgeable

    So now it is the location of the Jewish Temple?


    But why are we talking about Islam?
    Is "Palestine" an Islamic state?
    Is Jerusalem an "Islamic capital"?


    AyaTrolLiar> Muslims took over

    Yes, Muslim EMPIRES invaded, conquered, occupied and colonized.
    It's called imperialism, now he's for it?


    Nazareth and Bethlehem are spiritual centers for Palestinian Arabs who are Christian.
    Maybe Bethlehem is a "spiritual capital", too? Or Nazareth, despite not being in Jund Filastin but Jund al-Urdunn?


    AyaTrolLiar> [runs away]


    The AyaTrolLiar has repeatedly insisted that Amman is NOT part of "Palestine", yet his source says it is!

    || Of the principal towns are Ashkelon, Ramle, Gaza, Arsuf, Caesarea, Nablus, Jericho, Amman, Jaffa and Beit Jibrin"

    AyaTrolLiar> [crawls back under his rock]


    How does a geographic area (not an "official province" or "district") have a capital?
    What's the capital of southern Europe?
    What's the capital of the Midwest?


    AyaTrolLiar> a non-self-governing recognizable territory, technically governed from abroad

    QED (and not just "technically", it was previously a district of Syria, then a non-district of the Ayyubid (Kurdish) and Mamluk empires.


    AyaTrolLiar> known for its unique culture and traditions.

    So this "unique culture and traditions" were present in Amman 500 and 1,000 years ago, but not 100 years ago?
    An odd claim given that they say the culture was "Arabized"
    Or that the borders of this "unique culture and traditions" were defined by European powers after WW I.


    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729

    AyaTrolLiar> [nowhere to be found]


    Even 100 years ago an Arab in Acre (which wasn't in Filastin but was in Mandate Palestine) was culturally closer to an Arab in Tyre (Lebanon) than to one in Jericho. While an Arab in Jericho was closer to one in Amman (Jordan) than to one in Gaza. While an Arab in Gaza was closer to one in El Arish (Egypt) than to an Arab in Acre.

    AyaTrolLiar> [what can he already say?]

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 21, 2016 3:50 AM GMT
    > 1351: "Filastin, whose capital is Aelia (Jerusalem), eighteen miles from Ramla, which is the Holy City" -- Jamal al-Din Ahmed

    In 1351 the region was under Mamluk rule and had no Filastin district.
    Jerusalem still lay in ruins, which may explain the reference to its Roman name.
    Note further that he had to explain where Jerusalem was relative to Ramla!


    AyaTrolLiar> because a few nephews of the Kurdish dynast Saladin wreaked havoc on Jerusalem for a very brief period a long time ago (Mongols and Kwarizmian Tatars were responsible for most of the damage),

    There was little left for the Mongols to destroy (assuming they even actually reached the city) while the Khwarezmians Tartars were mercenaries of Saladin's Ayyubid dynasty.


    AyaTrolLiar> we are to ignore the role of Muslims as the prime embellishers and architects of the city?

    Were we discussing architecture?


    AyaTrolLiar> Ahmed had just finished talking about Ramla

    What? He talked about another city before talking about the "cultural and religious capital"?!
    Obviously Ramla (the former official capital) was more relevant that the theoretical "capital" that was never before their capital and, for over 130 years, lay in ruin.

    AyaTrolLiar> Nor was the city uninhabited for all of 130 years.

    I didn't say it was "uninhabited", but do tell. How many Arabs lived there in 1225 or 1351?

    AyaTrolLiar> was populated

    How many Arabs?

    AyaTrolLiar> [flees]


    AyaTrolLiar> His profile of Ramla (the former official administrative capital) reads like a formality. Whereas Jerusalem is presented as the "capital" of Palestine.

    I know this won't exactly shock anyone familiar with the AyaTrolLIAR founcer and his dishonest methods, but... he's blatantly lying. Ahmed had NOT "just finished talking about Ramla, nor was there any "formality" about Ramla (a city which was also called... Filastin). Let's look at what his source actually wrote:

    || The first town of Syria is Balis, and the last Al Arish, of Egypt. Syria is divided into five districts, namely: i. Filastin, whose capital is Aelia (Jerusalem), eighteen miles from Ramla, which is the Holy City, the metropolis of David and Solomon. Of its towns are Ashkelon, Hebron, Sebastia, and Nablus."

    His source wasn't talking about Ramla, let alone as a "formality", but discussing Syria - listing its divisions without specifying that each allegedly had its own "unique custom and traditions".

    What we see, again, is not just the AyaTrolLiar's inherent dishonesty, but his penchant to reverse the scientific method and invent "facts" to conform to his preconceived, biased and false notions.

    AyaTrolLiar> [evidently ran out of lies]


    Consider further that these were the 2 descriptions that he found (his Wikipedia source lists more) that he could selectively quote and then twist to make it appear they support his lies. While ignoring the rest which made inconvenient statements such as (from 1220) " there are three Palestines, which are parts of Greater Syria. The first is that whose capital is Jerusalem, and this part is specially named Judaea". And again in c. 1350: "that part of Syria which is called Judaea and Palestine".

    Did you catch that? The primary "Palestine" = JUDAEA!

    Or repeated attestations that "Ramla is also known as Filastin".
    Perhaps this he considers just a "formality"?!


    AyaTrolLiar> [is destroyed]

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jun 28, 2016 10:47 PM GMT
    Looks like the AyaTrolLiar ran out of lies and fled this thread

    AyaTrolLiar (elsewhere)> Quite a profound observation considering I never posted in the thread to begin with!

    Of course he hasn't posted here, a troll can never post on-topic in a thread, always spamming his lies elsewhere, where they haven't already been debunked.

    He just reads this thread and then replies elsewhere. icon_rolleyes.gif
    Again revealing his sick-with-hate, clever-by-half, petty mind.

    It's as immature as when he pretended to have me on "ignore" and that his "friends" would "email" him what I said.
    (When in reality he had a sock-puppet account that stalked my profile daily to see where I had posted.)

    It's a perverted defense mechanism by which he seeks to avoid arguments to which he has no answers.

    What else can he do but slinker away when he's been caught - again - lying about what his sources say?
  • Edepic

    Posts: 88

    Jun 28, 2016 11:30 PM GMT
    I don't have the background, capacity or truthfully the investment to follow this thread.
    But I can feel the hurt, anger and even rage here that continues to fuel so much animosity that seems to be the spark that ignites so much of the misery that continues to destroy, dislocate and threaten most of the civilized world.
    Eventually, [20,000 years?], Jews and Palestinians will intermarry and share the land and grieve for all of the bloodshed that occurred before sanity returned.
    I for one, as a Christian child, learned to reject the Jewish "other'. I came to the conclusion that this was bullshit and I am now proud that my grandchildren will be raised in the Jewish faith.
    I know it's hard, but as we all learned it in kindergarten,
    "Share!"
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jul 02, 2016 3:18 AM GMT
    Ravi1985 saidTeachings prove that Filastin was distinct from Al Sham.

    Oh? When was that? What "teachings"?

    Above we see (even from the AyaTrolLiar's own sources, when not used selectively and inventively) that Filastin was a district of Al Sham (Syria).
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Jul 02, 2016 3:24 AM GMT
    Edepic said
    I can feel the hurt, anger and even rage here that continues to fuel so much animosity that seems to be the spark that ignites so much of the misery that continues to destroy, dislocate and threaten most of the civilized world.

    ...I know it's hard, but as we all learned it in kindergarten,
    "Share!"

    As Rabin taught Israel in the 1990s, "you make peace with your enemy, not with your friend".
    That mantra replacing "we don't negotiate with terrorists".

    Unfortunately that was not reflected on the other side, and we constantly (even here on RJ) hear: "What? Make peace with Israel? No way!"

    Let's talk peace: The two-state solution
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4180210


    Inside Israel, while not perfect, there is already a lot of "sharing".

    Israel is a secular, democratic, state (gay friendly, too)
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/3977469