Many gay men's love/hate relationship with women....

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  Jun 27, 2016 6:31 PM GMT

  I have noticed with more and more of my new gay friends (and their friends) that they refer to each other as women... using "hey girl" and "she" to refer to each other and to other men in general. But they also are quick to also refer to women as "bitches" and "that cunt" too. It's like they have an inner female voice and also see females as better capturing their emotional identity and as being their rivals. Its both fascinating and lonely for me at times.
  
  Its TOTALLY fine for guys to be themselves if that means being naturally effeminate. I just wonder why I am so different. Why do many guys take on personalities of divas on tv but also tend not to follow male icons or models on tv, at all? For example, I hear body image comments where these guys have described themselves as having "child bearing hips" instead of having "love handles". Another example would be the numbers of my friends who identify with the fierceness of Cersei or Dany from Game Of Thrones instead of the fierceness of Jon Snow or Tyrian or The Hound.
  
  Do you think it is socialization where they've picked up cues from other mainstream gay guys? Or would you guess that these guys don't feel that they have anything in common when your average male guy? Can we try not to bash feminine guys NOR masculine guys please? This isn't about saying one is better or not, it is me asking why.
  
  Appreciate your contributions on this.

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• Destinharbor
  
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  Jun 27, 2016 7:33 PM GMT

  I don't know why they feminize themselves and others. It has to be at least a bit of self disrespect if not worse. I know some of these things are nothing more than pack mentality but I find it pretty unappealing and won't be around those people. I hear it when I get a haircut but that's about it. Funny thing, though. I've met guys who spoke without any hint of that in one setting but turn it on in others. Again, pack mentality, but also tribal in a larger sense. So I guess we have to accept that they're part of our tribe without necessarily being in our more intimate pack.
  
  The women-hating thing is another matter. No excuse for that. If you think they don't necessarily mean anything by it, I'd respectfully disagree. The anger is there. Some women certainly deserve it but most don't.

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  Jun 27, 2016 7:40 PM GMT

  I would've thought this shit would have died out in the fucking 70's, but it seems to be getting worse if anything. I've even met some fairly masculine guys lately that referred to their friends as "she" and "her." I always ask them why they do this and they always say "oh, I'm just joking." Yeah, I get it you're just joking.....but many a truth is revealed in jest. The question is WHY do you joke about your friends being female? As much as society has stereotyped us, you would think we'd be the last to do it to ourselves.

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  Jun 27, 2016 7:43 PM GMT

  Your post has everything to do with feminine men and nothing to do with women.

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• Destinharbor
  
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  Jun 27, 2016 8:23 PM GMT

  bon_pan saidYour post has everything to do with feminine men and nothing to do with women.

  
  Ya, but you'd think even feminine men, maybe especially feminine men, would want to maintain that they are men, not women or girls.

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  Jun 27, 2016 8:37 PM GMT

  i was married for 15 yeas to my x-wife so no hate but mixed feelings for the ladies. Women dont want anything to do with me.
  my husband, naturally effeminate, has many girl friends. Confirmation is his girlfriends want nothing to do with me.

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  Jun 27, 2016 9:19 PM GMT

  Gay Divas/ Flamers: heavily resistant to conventional masculinity and conforming, probably possess an inner man complex
  Masc Bro: not resistant to masculinity and believe it is possible to like men and still fit into mainstream society, fine with conforming
  

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• TheGoodGuy
  
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  Jun 27, 2016 10:21 PM GMT

  TO23 saidGay Divas/ Flamers: heavily resistant to conventional masculinity and conforming, probably possess an inner man complex
  Masc Bro: not resistant to masculinity and believe it is possible to like men and still fit into mainstream society, fine with conforming
  

  
  
  
  Oh please you know nothing. Stop generalizing and try to fit people into boxes. At the end of the day people are free to act in any way that they want. Nobody have the right to be judgmental in any way. Believe it or not even if people are gay they have the right to have their own personality.
  

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• badbug
  
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  Jun 27, 2016 11:41 PM GMT

  
  I wonder how many of these people always felt a little rejected by other boys growing up, compounded and complicated by their attraction to them. I think it's possible that if you always felt a little safer around women for whatever reason, you would identify with them or wish to indentify with them in some part. I would wonder, do fem guys ever refer to their romantic partners this way? As their girlfriends? I would guess not.
  
  
  I think you see the same dynamic in reverse with a lot of men who hate women.
  
  
  And as for the love/hate thing, people are complicated. Brains are complicated. Nobody is one thing, and no one brain acts only in its own interests. You brain is just like an arm or a leg or finger nails, it's a bunch of cells doing there own thing and it just works, so we tend to view it as one object. But really an arm or a leg is a massive amount of objects.
  A brain is a bunch of cells and neurons firing away and acting at different levels of what we call consciousness. It's not all working towards one goal, it's really just a bunch of shit happening that we like to put a narrative around, and call it "us".
  
  
  

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  Jun 28, 2016 5:58 AM GMT

  I'm stumped too. Hearing a guy refer to another gay guy as a "she" seems frankly odd to me. Personally, I'd be highly offended because I would take it as a criticism of my masculinity. Even if I had pronounced stereotypic "feminine" traits I would still see myself as a guy. I might say "I'm not very macho" but it would seem silly to say "I'm feminine". Clearly many women seem to demonstrate stereotypic masculine traits but it would seem equally odd to refer them as "he". I sense a double-standard at play.
  
  I can understand the comments if the recipient was transgender but my sense is the OP is not referring to that aspect.

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  Jun 28, 2016 10:28 AM GMT

  I don't know a lot of gay men, so I don't really experience the feminine name calling thing. I used to experience it a lot back when I was working in a gay pub, and it was funny at times, hearing guys refer to each other as "she" and saying "hey girls" and stuff like that, but i agree that it's kind of insulting and degrading. To me, once I hear a gay guy refer to another gay guy or even himself as a woman, it creates a sort of okay, we're not going to have a sensible conversation today, we're going to make bitchy jokes to each other kind of vibe, and to be honest that's probably a big part of why I haven't made the effort to pursue friendships with other gay men. It's not that being effeminate is a bad thing if that's how a gay man feels comfortable, but there's no need to feminize others.
  
  As for the woman hating thing, I have been there. I had some twatty women in my social circle who I've recently broken away from. It wasn't doing me any good associating with them, it was frustrating me and causing me to talk about the opposite sex in a negative light. I do have new female friends now who are great and I wouldn't dare speak or think about them the way I thought or spoke about the other women I was associating with. I guess its all about how we pick our friends and finding people who perceive us the way we want to be perceived.

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• mstone18
  
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  Jun 29, 2016 3:54 AM GMT

  A very interesting topic.
  
  The last two posters brought up very familar concepts to me. The first being that whether I fit in the masculine camp or not, that's firmly where I feel I fit and wouldn't change it if I could. It would also feel awkward participating in that kind of conversation with another guy.. heck even 'labeling' another guy as gay feels awkward to me..
  
  Its like accepting a brand that other less kind people imposed on a part of the population. I totally get the unity and group identity thing.. but you never know how the other person would feel about that brand, whether they wear it with pride.. or would reject it. Not everyone carries a lot of baggage around or a chip on their shoulder. Maybe with a lot of time knowing a person.. my opinion would change, but at this moment in time.. its weird to me.
  
  Hating women.. hmm.. I'm biased.. but I do have a lot of baggage in this area.. frankly a lot of bad treatment, and seeing a lot of guys getting treated "very badly" and "used" beyond all belief. As I get older.. I seem less able to forgive older women who seem to enjoy harming, hurting and abusing all sorts of guys.
  
  I know intellectually most men can do physical damage to a women, or feel very possesive and justify to themselves doing horrible things.. but I've seen really terrible horrible things done in the other direction.. as if we are lesser.. or couldn't understand the bond between a child and a parent.. or couldn't "feel" as they do about anything.. its hypocritical to a fault. -- I'm not pleading for a balanced look at the issue. I admit I'm tainted by my experiences.. "I feel so sorry for a lot of guys.. " but there are some bad women out there honestly, truly.

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  Jun 29, 2016 5:17 AM GMT

  I was scared when I realized I was gay around 12 because I knew what it would mean if people found out. I consciously avoided behaviors or people that seemed gay for a good long time. I couldn't understand how people that were feminine couldn't just STOP. Don't drop your wrist, don't talk so high... aren't you afraid you'll get beat up?? Fear does funny things to people :/
  
  Now I'm older and I've listened a lot; I can see more sides to it. I'd guess some of it's innate and some social (a LOT for some people :p). There will always be gaggles of "catty girls" out there, and I don't have much time for that but I've met some cool feminine guys over the years. I just accept that a lot of us are that way. It mostly doesn't affect me, yeah?
  
  I was just reminded of this incident last year. I was at a bar and somehow started talking to these 2 straight girls. We were just shooting the shit and at least 2 different guys came over to intercede, to "save me." I was embarrassed for our community in that moment. Do we really view women so disdainfully?

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  Jun 29, 2016 5:57 AM GMT

  The only thing that makes sense for me about OP's post was about the feminine gays thing. The only thing that I wanna say if if you're happy with being feminine that go for it. Though I kinda don't like it when we call each other as "hi, girls!", unless we identify ourselves as women. Kinda like "marine" doesn't wanna be called as "army". Not because one is less than the other, but because that's not the identity that they identify with.
  
  About the women hating, I don't know, I guess that can be said about everyone. Do gay men hate men when they refer other men as "bastard", "prick", "dick"? Do women hate men when they refer to other men the same way? Do women hate other women when they refer them as "cunt" and "bitch" and "whore"? Because I hear that a lot from women.

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