Is Scruff Helping (Some) HIV+ Guys to Hide Their Status?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 28, 2016 8:57 PM GMT
    prevention-preferences-on-scruff.jpg
    I'm a big fan of Scruff. I've met some incredible guy off this app and I love the functionality of it. However, it strikes me as a bit deceitful the way they now allow HIV+ guys to discreetly state their status without actually saying the words. There is no drop-down menu to state your HIV status anymore; only a section where you can list your safety practices. Your options are: Condoms, PrEP or Treatment as Prevention. Which is fine but it seems most guys have no idea what "treatment as prevention" even means. There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both. They have no idea what it means but they click it anyway. HIV+ guys no longer feel any need to disclose their status because they have that little box ticked that almost no one knows what it means. I feel like it's my right to know if the person I'm about to have sex with is HIV+ or not. And yes, I'm well aware that some people are positive and don't know it but this is a numbers game here and it's good to have that disclosure. This subtle change also silently says it's not cool to ask someone's status. Curious to know you guys thoughts on this.
  • trvlmscl

    Posts: 136

    Jun 28, 2016 9:54 PM GMT
    Radd saidprevention-preferences-on-scruff.jpg
    I'm a big fan of Scruff. I've met some incredible guy off this app and I love the functionality of it. However, it strikes me as a bit deceitful the way they now allow HIV+ guys to discreetly state their status without actually saying the words. There is no drop-down menu to state your HIV status anymore; only a section where you can list your safety practices. Your options are: Condoms, PrEP or Treatment as Prevention. Which is fine but it seems most guys have no idea what "treatment as prevention" even means. There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both. They have no idea what it means but they click it anyway. HIV+ guys no longer feel any need to disclose their status because they have that little box ticked that almost no one knows what it means. I feel like it's my right to know if the person I'm about to have sex with is HIV+ or not. And yes, I'm well aware that some people are positive and don't know it but this is a numbers game here and it's good to have that disclosure. This subtle change also silently says it's not cool to ask someone's status. Curious to know you guys thoughts on this.


    Not cool to ask someone's status? I'd rather be uncool than risk exposure - either to HIV or a dishonest person. I don't use Scruff, but I like to discuss STD status regardless of what boxes are checked on a profile.
  • FitBlackCuddl...

    Posts: 802

    Jun 28, 2016 10:36 PM GMT
    "Scruff Helping HIV+ People to Hide Their Status?"

    The consensus is that MOST active "gay" men HAVE HIV, so maybe the Scruff people just assume that all users KNOW this and will choose accordingly. Besides, Scruff is listed as a worldwide social networking and travel app, so perhaps they are consciously moving away from the sexual angle by not overtly fixating on sexual status.

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    Jun 28, 2016 10:55 PM GMT
    Scruff seems to choose a more accurate approach of asking "safety practice" not actual status. The problem with asking for actual status is:

    1. Although I am negative, HIV+ guys have the right to privacy too and may not want to openly disclose their status to the world. Instead they want to choose how, when and to whom they tell. Therefore many HIV+ guys would not even use the HIV+/- button.

    2. In addition to #1, many guys who are actually HIV+ don't know but would incorrectly select HIV-.

    #1 and #2 make the HIV+/- button way less accurate and therefore practically useless.
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    Jun 28, 2016 11:38 PM GMT
    So many hungry, aggressive, boned up men on that site. Crazy
  • DaForgotten1

    Posts: 7

    Jun 29, 2016 12:11 AM GMT
    Very true about #2. I wasn't aware of my status until I went in for chronic coughing. Turns out it was a side effect of a compromised immune system so they ran some tests and found out I am positive. I was in good health except for the cough, ate healthy, stayed fit, even completed a full marathon. For some, the symptoms don't show readily so they are not aware.

    woodfordr saidScruff seems to choose a more accurate approach of asking "safety practice" not actual status. The problem with asking for actual status is:

    1. Although I am negative, HIV+ guys have the right to privacy too and may not want to openly disclose their status to the world. Instead they want to choose how, when and to whom they tell. Therefore many HIV+ guys would not even use the HIV+/- button.

    2. In addition to #1, many guys who are actually HIV+ don't know but would incorrectly select HIV-.

    #1 and #2 make the HIV+/- button way less accurate and therefore practically useless.
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1126

    Jun 29, 2016 12:41 AM GMT
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.

    Have you taken the time to ask these guys what they think treatment as prevention means? I find hard to believe that thousands of gay adult men don't know what this means.

    And of course you have every right to know the HIV status of a person you're going to have sex with. All you have to do is ask.

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    Jun 29, 2016 12:51 AM GMT
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.



    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.
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    Jun 29, 2016 12:55 AM GMT
    woodfordr saidScruff seems to choose a more accurate approach of asking "safety practice" not actual status. The problem with asking for actual status is:

    1. Although I am negative, HIV+ guys have the right to privacy too and may not want to openly disclose their status to the world. Instead they want to choose how, when and to whom they tell. Therefore many HIV+ guys would not even use the HIV+/- button.

    2. In addition to #1, many guys who are actually HIV+ don't know but would incorrectly select HIV-.

    #1 and #2 make the HIV+/- button way less accurate and therefore practically useless.



    You have a point there. But if you're looking to hookup with a guy, that should be the end of your privacy. I agree, it should be your decision WHEN you disclose this information but I think the sooner the better. Some guys will wait until you actually meet them to disclose this info. I guess they assume you're less likely to reject them once you've made the journey to their house.
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1126

    Jun 29, 2016 12:56 AM GMT
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.



    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.


    I was talking about someone who is HIV+ and who takes his meds to suppress the virus. For him, that would be treatment as prevention. And for someone who is HIV- who is on prEP, he almost completely eliminates his risks of getting HIV. Put these two together to have sex and the HIV- guy should be fine. I think that's what people on Scruff are doing with their profiles.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 29, 2016 12:58 AM GMT
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said

    Have you taken the time to ask these guys what they think treatment as prevention means? I find hard to believe that thousands of gay adult men don't know what this means.



    Oh yes. I've contacted literally dozens of guys who listed TAP and PrEP both in the same sentence. The consensus seems to be that they thought it sounds like they were extra safe.
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1126

    Jun 29, 2016 12:59 AM GMT
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said

    Have you taken the time to ask these guys what they think treatment as prevention means? I find hard to believe that thousands of gay adult men don't know what this means.



    Oh yes. I've contacted literally dozens of guys who listed TAP and PrEP both in the same sentence. The consensus seems to be that they thought it sounds like they were extra safe.


    Wow, okay so it sounds like they really don't what it means. That's scary.
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    Jun 29, 2016 1:00 AM GMT
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.



    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.


    I was talking about someone who is HIV+ and who takes his meds to suppress the virus. For him, that would be treatment as prevention. And for someone who is HIV- who is on prEP, he almost completely eliminates his risks of getting HIV. Put these two together to have sex and the HIV- guy should be fine. I think that's what people on Scruff are doing with their profiles.



    Correct. But you can't take them both at the same time so I'm puzzled why anyone would list both in their profile. That section is supposed to be for YOUR safety practices, not the other person.
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1126

    Jun 29, 2016 1:05 AM GMT
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.



    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.


    I was talking about someone who is HIV+ and who takes his meds to suppress the virus. For him, that would be treatment as prevention. And for someone who is HIV- who is on prEP, he almost completely eliminates his risks of getting HIV. Put these two together to have sex and the HIV- guy should be fine. I think that's what people on Scruff are doing with their profiles.



    Correct. But you can't take them both at the same time so I'm puzzled why anyone would list both in their profile. That section is supposed to be for YOUR safety practices, not the other person.


    I never interpreted TAP and prEP to be taken by the same person when I saw these two listed in someone's Scruff profile. It's like a bottom who states on Scruff that he uses condoms. He's not using them himself. He wants his top to use them. Same thing as someone who is HIV- who wants his potential HIV+ partners to be on prEP. He wants his HIV+ partners to be undetectable to substantially lower the risks of becoming infected.
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    Jun 29, 2016 1:18 AM GMT
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.



    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.


    I was talking about someone who is HIV+ and who takes his meds to suppress the virus. For him, that would be treatment as prevention. And for someone who is HIV- who is on prEP, he almost completely eliminates his risks of getting HIV. Put these two together to have sex and the HIV- guy should be fine. I think that's what people on Scruff are doing with their profiles.



    Correct. But you can't take them both at the same time so I'm puzzled why anyone would list both in their profile. That section is supposed to be for YOUR safety practices, not the other person.


    I never interpreted TAP and prEP to be taken by the same person when I saw these two listed in someone's Scruff profile. It's like a bottom who states on Scruff that he uses condoms. He's not using them himself. He wants his top to use them. Same thing as someone who is HIV- who wants his potential HIV+ partners to be on prEP. He wants his HIV+ partners to be undetectable to substantially lower the risks of becoming infected.



    I see what you're saying. But 100% of the guys I asked about this did not know what TAP even was.
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1126

    Jun 29, 2016 1:25 AM GMT
    Well, that's alarming that they would list something in their profile and not even know what it means.

    I think Scruff should be a lot more active in educating users on what these crucial tidbits of info actually mean.
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    Jun 29, 2016 1:26 AM GMT
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.
    2


    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.


    I'm assuming they are talking about the partner on TasP while he is on PrEP. Thus 2 layers of protection. He is "using" TasP via someone else.

    I just check. I can filter for POZ. Why? Because I am POZ. It would be a huge disclosure issue to use for everyone. Discrimination still exists. Anyone could check to see who's POZ could use it against them.

    If you put TasP as a possibility (his) SCRUFF may show those that are available, I'm not sure. It's none of your business who is on TasP or HIV Poz if it's not in your realm.

    That you titled this "Is Scruff Helping HIV+ People to Hide Their Status?" implies HIV POZ people (and undetectable) are hiding and SCRUFF is enabling something nefarious. The fact is they are being protected from privacy invasion.......from people like you.

    How many back stabbing bitches would reveal someone's status just to fuck with them (not in a way)?
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    Jun 29, 2016 1:32 AM GMT
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.



    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.


    I was talking about someone who is HIV+ and who takes his meds to suppress the virus. For him, that would be treatment as prevention. And for someone who is HIV- who is on prEP, he almost completely eliminates his risks of getting HIV. Put these two together to have sex and the HIV- guy should be fine. I think that's what people on Scruff are doing with their profiles.



    Correct. But you can't take them both at the same time so I'm puzzled why anyone would list both in their profile. That section is supposed to be for YOUR safety practices, not the other person.


    I never interpreted TAP and prEP to be taken by the same person when I saw these two listed in someone's Scruff profile. It's like a bottom who states on Scruff that he uses condoms. He's not using them himself. He wants his top to use them. Same thing as someone who is HIV- who wants his potential HIV+ partners to be on prEP. He wants his HIV+ partners to be undetectable to substantially lower the risks of becoming infected.


    Exactly. Why does RADD need to know if he's not interested in TasP or someone POZ? Just interested in invading someone's privacy?
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1126

    Jun 29, 2016 1:48 AM GMT
    TIMinPS said
    That you titled this "Is Scruff Helping HIV+ People to Hide Their Status?" implies HIV are hiding and SCRUFF is enabling something nefarious.


    TIM makes an excellent point. The title of this thread is a tad incitable.

    To answer the question:

    I certainly hope not. icon_razz.gif
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    Jun 29, 2016 1:58 AM GMT
    DaForgotten1 saidVery true about #2. I wasn't aware of my status until I went in for chronic coughing. Turns out it was a side effect of a compromised immune system so they ran some tests and found out I am positive. I was in good health except for the cough, ate healthy, stayed fit, even completed a full marathon. For some, the symptoms don't show readily so they are not aware.

    woodfordr saidScruff seems to choose a more accurate approach of asking "safety practice" not actual status. The problem with asking for actual status is:

    1. Although I am negative, HIV+ guys have the right to privacy too and may not want to openly disclose their status to the world. Instead they want to choose how, when and to whom they tell. Therefore many HIV+ guys would not even use the HIV+/- button.

    2. In addition to #1, many guys who are actually HIV+ don't know but would incorrectly select HIV-.

    #1 and #2 make the HIV+/- button way less accurate and therefore practically useless.


    Glad you are diagnosed and I presume back to good health!

    I think the shift in attention from status to safer sex practice is incredibly important. The real issue is that the vast majority of new infections occur because the HIV+ partner didn't know (s)he was infected and thinks he is HIV-. Your risk of infection is probably lower if you pick a random HIV+ man that has been taking his meds than a random guy that thinks he's HIV-. It's not even just a number of guys problem: it's also that recently infected people are much, much more likely to pass on the virus (because of higher viral loads) than people that have been infected for a long time.

    I get the privacy angle. I just wouldn't care about that if it meant that I increase my risk of infection. The thing is, it's not primarily about privacy, it's about reducing the number of new infections. Focusing on safer sex practices instead of status makes that happen.

    The real problem, I believe, is when someone takes the PrEP or TasP checkbox as pure truth and doesn't do his own part. If you rely on someone else's PrEP or TasP as safer sex practice, it's like trusting that the condom the other guy brought with him didn't expire. You don't know if the guy has been taking his pills like prescribed and if they still work with his strain. You have to take care of your own protection.
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    Jun 29, 2016 2:08 AM GMT
    TIMinPS said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.



    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.


    I was talking about someone who is HIV+ and who takes his meds to suppress the virus. For him, that would be treatment as prevention. And for someone who is HIV- who is on prEP, he almost completely eliminates his risks of getting HIV. Put these two together to have sex and the HIV- guy should be fine. I think that's what people on Scruff are doing with their profiles.



    Correct. But you can't take them both at the same time so I'm puzzled why anyone would list both in their profile. That section is supposed to be for YOUR safety practices, not the other person.


    I never interpreted TAP and prEP to be taken by the same person when I saw these two listed in someone's Scruff profile. It's like a bottom who states on Scruff that he uses condoms. He's not using them himself. He wants his top to use them. Same thing as someone who is HIV- who wants his potential HIV+ partners to be on prEP. He wants his HIV+ partners to be undetectable to substantially lower the risks of becoming infected.


    Exactly. Why does RADD need to know if he's not interested in TasP or someone POZ? Just interested in invading someone's privacy?




    As usual, you're more concerned about someone's privacy than the other person's safety.
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    Jun 29, 2016 2:10 AM GMT
    Most, if not all, Scruff profiles are misleading anyway, so why rely on them? I treat every guy I meet for sex as if he were hiv poz, regardless of what he tells me. Caveat emptor.
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    Jun 29, 2016 2:57 AM GMT
    Radd said
    TIMinPS said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said
    ANTiSociaLiNJUSTICeWarior said
    Radd said There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both.


    Why not? They actually complement one another when you think about it.



    You're very wrong about that. In fact, taking PrEP while HIV+ would be very dangerous. This is why they require you to get tested to get your prescription refilled.


    I was talking about someone who is HIV+ and who takes his meds to suppress the virus. For him, that would be treatment as prevention. And for someone who is HIV- who is on prEP, he almost completely eliminates his risks of getting HIV. Put these two together to have sex and the HIV- guy should be fine. I think that's what people on Scruff are doing with their profiles.



    Correct. But you can't take them both at the same time so I'm puzzled why anyone would list both in their profile. That section is supposed to be for YOUR safety practices, not the other person.


    I never interpreted TAP and prEP to be taken by the same person when I saw these two listed in someone's Scruff profile. It's like a bottom who states on Scruff that he uses condoms. He's not using them himself. He wants his top to use them. Same thing as someone who is HIV- who wants his potential HIV+ partners to be on prEP. He wants his HIV+ partners to be undetectable to substantially lower the risks of becoming infected.


    Exactly. Why does RADD need to know if he's not interested in TasP or someone POZ? Just interested in invading someone's privacy?




    As usual, you're more concerned about someone's privacy than the other person's safety.

    As usual you put your paranoia ahead of other people. Worse you presume HIV people to be "hiding". Hypothetically this should limit your contacts to HIV negative only, and HIV negative or PrEP who don't accept TasP. It does box you into a corner of your own making as you exclude PrEP men who would have a TasP partner.

    You've demonstrating you don't have a "need to know" since you only do Neg. At that point your need to know a UVL or POZ status is totally irreverent.

    Other than to stigmatize them, why do you need to know, they have effectively BLOCKED you. You dont have to have any contact. We all have a right to privacy. Especially from negative leaning people like you.
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    Jun 29, 2016 4:08 AM GMT
    trvlmscl said
    Radd saidprevention-preferences-on-scruff.jpg
    I'm a big fan of Scruff. I've met some incredible guy off this app and I love the functionality of it. However, it strikes me as a bit deceitful the way they now allow HIV+ guys to discreetly state their status without actually saying the words. There is no drop-down menu to state your HIV status anymore; only a section where you can list your safety practices. Your options are: Condoms, PrEP or Treatment as Prevention. Which is fine but it seems most guys have no idea what "treatment as prevention" even means. There are thousands of HIV- guys on there who have treatment as prevention listed. Many have PrEP AND Treatment as Prevention listed. You can't do both. They have no idea what it means but they click it anyway. HIV+ guys no longer feel any need to disclose their status because they have that little box ticked that almost no one knows what it means. I feel like it's my right to know if the person I'm about to have sex with is HIV+ or not. And yes, I'm well aware that some people are positive and don't know it but this is a numbers game here and it's good to have that disclosure. This subtle change also silently says it's not cool to ask someone's status. Curious to know you guys thoughts on this.


    Not cool to ask someone's status? I'd rather be uncool than risk exposure - either to HIV or a dishonest person. I don't use Scruff, but I like to discuss STD status regardless of what boxes are checked on a profile.
    YES!! Thank you TRVLMUSC guys need to ask!! It takes 2 seconds, & guys are hung up on how it makes them look/sound? Yet they're about to put their dick, or let someone put THEIR dick inside of you, but asking HIV status is what's tough to do? Grow up guys, seriously!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 29, 2016 5:54 AM GMT
    themachine said
    DaForgotten1 saidVery true about #2. I wasn't aware of my status until I went in for chronic coughing. Turns out it was a side effect of a compromised immune system so they ran some tests and found out I am positive. I was in good health except for the cough, ate healthy, stayed fit, even completed a full marathon. For some, the symptoms don't show readily so they are not aware.

    woodfordr saidScruff seems to choose a more accurate approach of asking "safety practice" not actual status. The problem with asking for actual status is:

    1. Although I am negative, HIV+ guys have the right to privacy too and may not want to openly disclose their status to the world. Instead they want to choose how, when and to whom they tell. Therefore many HIV+ guys would not even use the HIV+/- button.

    2. In addition to #1, many guys who are actually HIV+ don't know but would incorrectly select HIV-.

    #1 and #2 make the HIV+/- button way less accurate and therefore practically useless.


    Glad you are diagnosed and I presume back to good health!

    I think the shift in attention from status to safer sex practice is incredibly important. The real issue is that the vast majority of new infections occur because the HIV+ partner didn't know (s)he was infected and thinks he is HIV-. Your risk of infection is probably lower if you pick a random HIV+ man that has been taking his meds than a random guy that thinks he's HIV-. It's not even just a number of guys problem: it's also that recently infected people are much, much more likely to pass on the virus (because of higher viral loads) than people that have been infected for a long time.

    I get the privacy angle. I just wouldn't care about that if it meant that I increase my risk of infection. The thing is, it's not primarily about privacy, it's about reducing the number of new infections. Focusing on safer sex practices instead of status makes that happen.

    The real problem, I believe, is when someone takes the PrEP or TasP checkbox as pure truth and doesn't do his own part. If you rely on someone else's PrEP or TasP as safer sex practice, it's like trusting that the condom the other guy brought with him didn't expire. You don't know if the guy has been taking his pills like prescribed and if they still work with his strain. You have to take care of your own protection.


    The most sensible comment I've read in this thread. Be accountable for self. If you contract ANY sti, you're just as much at fault as the person you got it from because YOU didn't protect yourself. The sure fire way to avoid catching anything is to abstain. Next best thing to that is making sure you get with ppl you can actually trust and ALWAYS wear condoms. Beyond that, its all a game of roulette