Americans and Islamophobia

  • giodude

    Posts: 271

    Jul 15, 2016 1:08 PM GMT
    So RJ seems to be mostly American, or American ex-pats. I find a lot of Islamophpobia on here, and it just surprises me that people who are part of a marginilised group would jump headfirst into believing everything that is broadcast about another marginilised group o people.

    To start off with, I would like to stat that I am an atheist. In 2016, I believe that the belief in anything that cannot be emperically proven or logically extrapolated is nonsensical and counterproductive to the progress of society. This includes Christianity.

    However, in South AFrica, our Muslim community is large. There are mosques everywhere, a prayer room in my university that is always open for Muslim students to say Salah anytime they wish, and very Muslim food vendors and store owners on every street, selling muslim delicacies like Samoosas and Biryani. These stores are clearly Muslim owned, and Muslim themed because they have the star and the crescent moon next to the name most of the time. Most of the food vendors on my campus are Muslim as well. There are prayer rooms in big chain restaurants and large shopping centers hang posters wishing Muslim patrons a happy Eid and Ramadan in the same way that Christians get wished merry Christmas and happy Easter. All the fastfood chains like KFC, MCdonald's, STeers (South African brand) have certificates stating that their food is hal'aal, and our residences have t prepare all their meat in a halaal manner.
    But the Mulim communities (of which there are many) here are very integrated into mainstream society, and the people in south africa are generally in tune with musim holidays and religious beliefs. We're never had any religious threats, or bombings from any Muslim affiliated group ever, nor are people here Islamophobic.
    It's very surprising to see Muslims get blamed for so many of the terrorist attacks, instead of the terrorist being labelled terrorists in their own right. All muslims are brushed under the same comb, and they suffer prejudice because of that. They're assumed to be violent, savage zealots who have no concept of modern civility.
    Yet instances of Christian hate groups ie Westboro Baptist Church are always instances of private iniquity. They're exceptions, not the rule. It really is baffling and a bit disgusting. Christianity and Islam are equally as violent in terms of the holy books.
    So I don't see why people (mostly americans) buy into villainising a group of people, especially when they themselves were villainised not so long ago. I really hope you guys take the time to speak to a muslim operson about their faith instead of eating up the shit that gets churned out of american broadcasting commissions day in and day out.
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    Jul 15, 2016 3:12 PM GMT
    giodude saidSo RJ seems to be mostly American, or American ex-pats. I find a lot of Islamophpobia on here, and it just surprises me that people who are part of a marginilised group would jump headfirst into believing everything that is broadcast about another marginilised group o people....
    .
    It's very surprising to see Muslims get blamed for so many of the terrorist attacks, instead of the terrorist being labelled terrorists in their own right. All muslims are brushed under the same comb, and they suffer prejudice because of that. They're assumed to be violent, savage zealots who have no concept of modern civility.
    Yet instances of Christian hate groups ie Westboro Baptist Church are always instances of private iniquity. They're exceptions, not the rule. It really is baffling and a bit disgusting. Christianity and Islam are equally as violent in terms of the holy books.....


    Having been marginalized doesn't strip a population from judging for themselves and commenting thereupon. But that doesn't mean that people ought to violate their own Constitution to become thought police as currently proposed by a high ranking GOP celebrity lizard.

    Denial, however, is neither political correctness nor politically correct. As horrible is Westboro, they parade posters on the ends of their sticks, not decapitated heads.

    One is an expression of Freedom of Speech. The other is a violation of health regulations.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 4433

    Jul 15, 2016 4:16 PM GMT
    Well said, OP. But I think you're wrong to dismiss the brain-warping of Islam as no different than Christianity. I, too, am an atheist so no prejudice here. If you raise a child in a cage in the basement then let him out, he's going to have some odd notions about his world. Obviously, that's what all religion is based on. Christianity has been radicalized in this country sufficiently to create a giant voting block willing to commit genocide on an unprecedented scale. You're with us or you're against us. Remember that? George W Bush. And that attitude penetrated into every Chamber of Commerce luncheon and Rotary Club meeting for long enough to get him reelected even after it was known the war was launched on fabricated, intentional lies. And how many did we slaughter just to benefit the military industrial complex? 100,000? But at least Christianity has a bit of a balancing function in the words of Christ. The bulk of the violent requirements of Christianity were old testament and the New Covenant said to stop doing that and start being kind. Now the tyrants ignore that part and rely on the older books but they can't call themselves Christian without at least occasionally hearing the words of Christ. Though politicians can. (See D Trump.)

    Islam has no moderating influence like Christ. And it challenges Muslims to act individually and gain their reward in heaven. A whole bunch of virgins. How sick is that? They basically see no value in life and high value in martyrdom. That is different.

    I agree that most Muslims are peaceful people going about their business. But that cage in the basement is always there and anyone raised on religion will have spent time in it.

  • bro4bro

    Posts: 1034

    Jul 15, 2016 4:33 PM GMT
    giodude said It's very surprising to see Muslims get blamed for so many of the terrorist attacks


    I don't know why you're surprised. In America we don't have mosques on every corner, and most Americans have never met a Muslim. All they know is that Muslim terrorists are doing horrendous things in the name of religion. So, yes, Muslims get blamed. If you've only seen one scorpion in your entire life, and it stung you, then you're not going to have a good impression of scorpions.

    Sadly, Muslims aren't doing a very good job of changing this image. They're not being near vocal enough in condemning these terrorists and their actions, and they're not doing near enough to help solve this problem within their own community. Pope Francis is welcoming gays into the Catholic church (albeit with the usual Christian bullshit); where is the high-ranking Imam welcoming gays into Islam?

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    Jul 15, 2016 5:08 PM GMT
    Destinharbor said The bulk of the violent requirements of Christianity were old testament and the New Covenant said to stop doing that and start being kind. Now the tyrants ignore that part and rely on the older books but they can't call themselves Christian without at least occasionally hearing the words of Christ.


    Um, excuse me, but speaking of violence in the bible, wasn't it the new version which had that little nailing of God crucifixion thingy? Never mind that you can't separate the old from the new within Christianity itself as understood and declared by their Vatican (the following copy/pasted from a past post, highlighted from that)...

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html#4._The_relationship_between_the_Old_and_New_Testament_and_the_Old_and_New_Covenant
    4. The relationship between the Old and New Testament and the Old and New Covenant

    27. The covenant that God has offered Israel is irrevocable. "God is not man, that he should lie" (Num 23:19; cf. 2 Tim 2:13). The permanent elective fidelity of God expressed in earlier covenants is never repudiated (cf. Rom 9:4; 11:1–2). The New Covenant does not revoke the earlier covenants, but it brings them to fulfilment....

    ...The New Covenant is grounded in and based on the Old, because it is ultimately the God of Israel who concludes the Old Covenant with his people Israel and enables the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. ...

    ...The roots of Christianity lie in the Old Testament, and Christianity constantly draws nourishment from these roots....

    With the existence of the New Testament, the question naturally arose quite soon of how the two testaments are related to one another, whether for example the New Testament writings have not superseded the older writings and nullified them. This position was represented by Marcion, who in the second century held that the New Testament had made the Old Testament book of promises obsolete, destined to fade away in the glow of the new, just as one no longer needs the light of the moon as soon as the sun has risen. This stark antithesis between the Hebrew and the Christian Bible never became an official doctrine of the Christian Church. By excluding Marcion from the Christian community in 144, the Church rejected his concept of a purely "Christian" Bible purged of all Old Testament elements, bore witness to its faith in the one and only God who is the author of both testaments, and thus held fast to the unity of both testaments, the "concordia testamentorum".


    And then of course there's the new & improved book of Revelation, said to be somewhat violent, never mind their treatment of Gay people in the world today. Maybe not decapitating us, but certainly dehumanizing by demonizing us. So not exactly non violent from those perspectives.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 4433

    Jul 15, 2016 7:54 PM GMT
    theantijock said
    Destinharbor said The bulk of the violent requirements of Christianity were old testament and the New Covenant said to stop doing that and start being kind. Now the tyrants ignore that part and rely on the older books but they can't call themselves Christian without at least occasionally hearing the words of Christ.


    Um, excuse me, but speaking of violence in the bible, wasn't it the new version which had that little nailing of God crucifixion thingy? Never mind that you can't separate the old from the new within Christianity itself as understood and declared by their Vatican (the following copy/pasted from a past post, highlighted from that)...

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html#4._The_relationship_between_the_Old_and_New_Testament_and_the_Old_and_New_Covenant
    4. The relationship between the Old and New Testament and the Old and New Covenant

    27. The covenant that God has offered Israel is irrevocable. "God is not man, that he should lie" (Num 23:19; cf. 2 Tim 2:13). The permanent elective fidelity of God expressed in earlier covenants is never repudiated (cf. Rom 9:4; 11:1–2). The New Covenant does not revoke the earlier covenants, but it brings them to fulfilment....

    ...The New Covenant is grounded in and based on the Old, because it is ultimately the God of Israel who concludes the Old Covenant with his people Israel and enables the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. ...

    ...The roots of Christianity lie in the Old Testament, and Christianity constantly draws nourishment from these roots....

    With the existence of the New Testament, the question naturally arose quite soon of how the two testaments are related to one another, whether for example the New Testament writings have not superseded the older writings and nullified them. This position was represented by Marcion, who in the second century held that the New Testament had made the Old Testament book of promises obsolete, destined to fade away in the glow of the new, just as one no longer needs the light of the moon as soon as the sun has risen. This stark antithesis between the Hebrew and the Christian Bible never became an official doctrine of the Christian Church. By excluding Marcion from the Christian community in 144, the Church rejected his concept of a purely "Christian" Bible purged of all Old Testament elements, bore witness to its faith in the one and only God who is the author of both testaments, and thus held fast to the unity of both testaments, the "concordia testamentorum".


    And then of course there's the new & improved book of Revelation, said to be somewhat violent, never mind their treatment of Gay people in the world today. Maybe not decapitating us, but certainly dehumanizing by demonizing us. So not exactly non violent from those perspectives.

    See? This is why anyone with a brain hates religion. All this mumbo jumbo to try to reconcile the irreconcilable. Ya, Jesus was killed. So how does that relate? I guess in one way it did because that started all the goofy brain-twist to try to explain how that could happen. Oh yeah! some one said they saw him afterwards some distance away and the body was missing so it must have risen. I mean, what other explanation could there be? All religions are stupid but I maintain Muslim preaches violence more than Christianity, certainly Jesus never did. (Unless you want to listen to a bunch of guys four centuries later explain how really what Jesus wanted was to create a strafed hierarchy so he could have Christian soldiers slaughter non-believers or anyone who didn't give them money.)
  • badbug

    Posts: 800

    Jul 15, 2016 9:16 PM GMT
    It's very surprising to see Muslims get blamed for so many of the terrorist attacks, instead of the terrorist being labelled terrorists in their own right

    By who? I hear this often, but have really yet to see it. Other than a few crazies on here, i feel like everyone is always going out of their way to say "not all Muslims are bad". Which is obvious, to everyone, except for a few crazies on here.


    There is a difference. There is a muslim Cleric, who supports Terror and Jihad, with 16 million twitter followers. @MohamadAlarefe

    Everytime i bring him up, there is never any response from people who like to shout "Islamaphobe". Everyone likes to imagine it's "a few bad seeds" but it's not. There is a lot of support out there for people blowing themsleves up in the name of Islam.





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    Jul 15, 2016 10:33 PM GMT
    Destinharbor saidSee? This is why anyone with a brain hates religion. All this mumbo jumbo to try to reconcile the irreconcilable. Ya, Jesus was killed. So how does that relate? I guess in one way it did because that started all the goofy brain-twist to try to explain how that could happen. Oh yeah! some one said they saw him afterwards some distance away and the body was missing so it must have risen. I mean, what other explanation could there be? All religions are stupid but I maintain Muslim preaches violence more than Christianity, certainly Jesus never did. (Unless you want to listen to a bunch of guys four centuries later explain how really what Jesus wanted was to create a strafed hierarchy so he could have Christian soldiers slaughter non-believers or anyone who didn't give them money.


    Well, besides that I was just having a little fun with the question is killing god the ultimate act of violence--or, as you note, a set up. Very funny.--and also to bring attention that old/new, while in Judaism is separate, in the Catholic church they are quite inseparably two chapters of one bible as Christians certainly consider themselves a legacy of Genesis, I mostly wanted to note that I'm not sure one (be it old new or other) is much more praising of violence than another...Revelation 21:8, for instance... "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral (that would be us), those who practice magic arts (ie the climate change scientists), the idolaters and all liars (those would be the Republicans and Anti-Semites) – they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." VS "death to the infidels.") What's the difference with regard to who's espousing more violence?

    Even if one directs adherents to action and the other says, well, you can turn the other cheek knowing that I'll do all the dirty work for you. Sorry, but I don't see the difference, particularly when a Christian might think he can push things along by, say, inundating the world with misery in the form of homophobia, overpopulation, contention between religions, etc. They don't have to cut a head to stop the circulation, All they have to do is build a wall. So I don't know that there's much of a difference between any of that crap.

    But to counter you a tad and just as a matter of perspective with regard to taking a thing as gospel. Besides that I think much of religion is speaking in metaphor--and some of that can be beautiful--it seems sometimes more than metaphor that one thing simply means something else, but also that it speaks in imagery. Not that this means that but this is a way of representing that. Just as a bird is not a metaphor for a bird that might fly. We just say bird and we understand that image. So saying that man should not lie with man as he lies with women could be the imagery of building a population and at the time it might have referred to nothing more than that, a bird. Killing infidels could be read by adherents simply as talk amongst yourselves, just with some extra color and blood thrown in for stressing the point.

    Sometimes we choose to believe what we believe even in a nonreligious sense, just in making our way through the world. We might befriend someone who we've seen fuck over others a number of times. But we don't believe they will do that to us, right? We've chosen what to believe in the face of facts which indicate otherwise. So this is not just a phenomenon of religion but of how we structure our reality. And as long as the other person doesn't fuck you over as they fucked over so many before you, then you were right to your beliefs even though your beliefs were not based on empirical reality but rather on faith.

    And so I give a little leeway to the religious in that respect.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Jul 16, 2016 1:39 AM GMT
    RealJock is a safe space for bigots, because, obviously, no one puts up with them in real life. Their whacko right-wing opinions are not representative of the gay community -- don't be alarmed.
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    Jul 16, 2016 1:59 AM GMT
    Radicals are everywhere!
    Speak out against hate and unjust acts. Be kind to each other and tolerate!
    Can christians go to a muslim country and pray, teach and feel safe?
    Hate, envy, jealousy are all part of the bad guys.

    Peace to all.
  • TallAsian

    Posts: 27

    Jul 16, 2016 6:21 AM GMT
    Not sure that the direction of this post is leading to anything particularly helpful. I often wonder how expressing the worst interpretations of Isam, Christianity or the Atheists proves anything. If anything can be said for religions, and I include atheists in that group since they cannot prove the non existence of the Divine either, that it helps some people get beyond themselves and pursue the idea of community. I'm not sure that a statement like 'anyone with a brain hates religion', is particularly helpful. I somehow feel that hating religion is every bit arbitrary as hating gays, liberals or freedom of speech, it simply shows that an extremist atheist has more in common any other religious extremist than someone with more considered and thoughtful views whether they profess any religious conviction or not. It is important to remember that both the former Soviet Union and Communist China were both atheist states and it did not make them more enlightened or compassionate. If anything it make them far more brutal and bloodthirsty than the Imperial rulers ever were. In many instances if we learn the lessons of history, it was the restraining hand of the religious leaders that constrained the hand of the tyrants and keep them from getting completely out of control ( see the Magna Carta). Whether we believe in a particular religion or not, it is short sighted and simplistic to discount the accomplishments that it has inspired. Indeed many of the crowning masterpieces of many cultures of our planet were the result of religious inspiration whether music, paintings, sculpture or architecture. Our world would be much poorer and diminished without these examples of greatness.

    I don't think it is quite fair or accurate to attribute human failings in interpretation of ideas as somehow an inherent flaw in religion. I'm just not convinced that a stripped bare civilization devoid of the great masterpieces would make for a better world. A religious being is not going to be perfect, but neither is an atheist.
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    Jul 16, 2016 7:02 AM GMT
    OP is only 19. Give him some time to experience life and he'll learn the truth. The harsh truth. icon_lol.gif
  • buddycat

    Posts: 1874

    Jul 16, 2016 7:19 AM GMT
    You are on a gay forum and you have to realize that many Muslim countries punish homosexuality with imprisonment or even death..
  • JackNNJ

    Posts: 1051

    Jul 17, 2016 2:58 AM GMT
    STFU

    Cna7QNbWcAQ-EY9.jpg:large
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    Jul 17, 2016 4:21 AM GMT
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  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Jul 17, 2016 5:15 AM GMT
    Destinharbor said
    at least Christianity has a bit of a balancing function in the words of Christ. The bulk of the violent requirements of Christianity were old testament and the New Covenant said to stop doing that

    I fear that's a very Christian, rather than atheist, perspective.

    In the real old days, say 3000+ years ago, gods were regional rather than universal. To adapt from a later saying: when in Rome, pray to Roman gods. When the Sea Peoples left the Greek Islands and arrived in Canaan, they adopted the local gods, the gods that had power in that land. Best I can tell, there weren't religious wars back then (even if different Temples took different sides in political/tribal disputes). The polytheists were accustomed to many gods and were accepting of others.

    The transformation to an all-powerful, all-reaching God, perhaps pioneered by Akhenaten and greatly advanced by Judaism, didn't initially threaten that system as Jews generally believed that only they were bound by their monotheism. The God had universal power, but it was still constrained as a tribal religion.

    Christianity, especially after Constantine, changed that. Now there was a universal religion, and only its adherents could attain Heaven while others were doomed to eternal Hell. Enter the need to "save souls" and proselytize - a tradition continued by Islam.

    I would say this, rather than perceived differences between the Old/New Testaments, played a much greater role in religious persecution.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Jul 17, 2016 5:17 AM GMT
    bro4bro said
    Sadly, Muslims aren't doing a very good job of changing this image. They're not being near vocal enough in condemning these terrorists and their actions, and they're not doing near enough to help solve this problem within their own community.

    badbug said
    Everyone likes to imagine it's "a few bad seeds" but it's not. There is a lot of support out there for people blowing themsleves up in the name of Islam.

    Who speaks for Islam?
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1090374
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 17, 2016 6:39 AM GMT
    My boyfriend is ex-Muslim and he considered himself a Christian. He believes Islam is a satan's religion. He always been talking trash about Islam, I always told him there are good and bad people everywhere and not all Muslims believe in the same religious beliefs.
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    Jul 17, 2016 7:16 PM GMT
    Why would it be surprising for Muslims to be blamed for terrorist attacks that they take credit for?

    Additionally, you seem to be misinformed about Muslims in America, who are quite visible and participate in daily life alongside everyone else.
  • giodude

    Posts: 271

    Jul 18, 2016 5:47 PM GMT
    TallAsian saidNot sure that the direction of this post is leading to anything particularly helpful. I often wonder how expressing the worst interpretations of Isam, Christianity or the Atheists proves anything. If anything can be said for religions, and I include atheists in that group since they cannot prove the non existence of the Divine either, that it helps some people get beyond themselves and pursue the idea of community. I'm not sure that a statement like 'anyone with a brain hates religion', is particularly helpful. I somehow feel that hating religion is every bit arbitrary as hating gays, liberals or freedom of speech, it simply shows that an extremist atheist has more in common any other religious extremist than someone with more considered and thoughtful views whether they profess any religious conviction or not. It is important to remember that both the former Soviet Union and Communist China were both atheist states and it did not make them more enlightened or compassionate. If anything it make them far more brutal and bloodthirsty than the Imperial rulers ever were. In many instances if we learn the lessons of history, it was the restraining hand of the religious leaders that constrained the hand of the tyrants and keep them from getting completely out of control ( see the Magna Carta). Whether we believe in a particular religion or not, it is short sighted and simplistic to discount the accomplishments that it has inspired. Indeed many of the crowning masterpieces of many cultures of our planet were the result of religious inspiration whether music, paintings, sculpture or architecture. Our world would be much poorer and diminished without these examples of greatness.

    I don't think it is quite fair or accurate to attribute human failings in interpretation of ideas as somehow an inherent flaw in religion. I'm just not convinced that a stripped bare civilization devoid of the great masterpieces would make for a better world. A religious being is not going to be perfect, but neither is an atheist.


    The one giant hole in the "you can't prove the divine does not exist" argument is that you cannot prove a negative. Sure I cannot prove that the Divine does not exist. But can you prove that faeries, mermaids, vampires, dragons, sorcerers and elves do not exist?

    I agree that religion WAS useless back in the day before we had secular thinking, but it has outlived its usefulness and is attempting to cling to relevance on the ever-fraying coattails of wishful thinking and ignorance.

    The world would be better off without religion. And yes, I do acknowledge the existence of Muslim radicals. My question is why are they more villainised than any other sort of radical? There are Christian radicals who are just as willing to oppress undermine and destroy, but because they do so under the protective veil of presidency campaigns and legislature doesn't make them any less tyrannous and destructive than somebody with a gun. Either way, people get oppressed and the end result is the ruination of lives.

    If religion did not exist we would not have sensible people compelled to do nonsensical things like cut foreskins or clitorises off babies, kill people, oppress people, deny the humanity of others. If religion were to vanish, we could deal with these problems directly, instead of having to circumnavigate the bureaucracy that accompanies religion and the protection it demands of the government to ensure that its followers don't get offended on behalf of their imaginary friends.
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    Jul 18, 2016 6:01 PM GMT
    Marginalized people marginalize. Hurt people hurt people. It's just like how guys with HIV purposely set out to infect other guys or how molested kids are more likely to molest. It's a dark part of human nature.
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    Jul 18, 2016 8:56 PM GMT
    RJ is certainly awash with right-wing Islamophobia and bigotry, and kudos to the OP for calling it out. As one might expect, it is particularly evident among certain "pro"-Israel apologists, as well as others who are outright Republicans and neo-fascists, all of whom feed into the worst tendencies that exist in America.

    But what Cody4u said is true as well: marginalized people marginalize.
    They resemble none so much as the "arriviste" immigrants from a few decades ago who get along by demonizing the latest wave of immigrants to curry favor with the host society and show how well "integrated" they are: "You see, we're so much like you, we even share your racism and your prejudices! Oh we can't be doing with these cheeky immigrants getting something for nothing - getting a free ride! It's outrageous! Oh do let us belong!"
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1145

    Jul 18, 2016 10:27 PM GMT
    This isn't just an American concern. Gang raping European women by Muslim refugees in countries like Denmark an Sweden are an all too common occurrence. Germany and Sweden now have segregated public swimming pools - no women and (Muslim) men allowed to swim at the same time. Take a look at what's happening in London and in France.

    This isn't just about bombing and terrorism. This is about a culture that perpetuates violence, intimidation and vehemently refuses equal rights for all. Especially women.
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    Jul 18, 2016 10:52 PM GMT
    And American "culture" doesn't "perpertuate violence"?
    A country that has invaded or bombed 14 Muslim countries (to stick with those) in the last 36 years?
    A country where 32,000 citizens are shot dead by fellow citizens EVERY year?
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1145

    Jul 18, 2016 11:03 PM GMT
    JTheM saidAnd American "culture" isn't about violence?

    The US has invaded or bombed 14 Muslim countries in the last 36 years.
    32,000 Americans are shot dead by other Americans EVERY year.


    And half of those bombings occurred under Obama's presidency. And if you count the Muslim minority in the Philippines that actually makes it eight. So, in thirty-six years one American president is responsible for (more than ) half of Muslim bombings over a span of thirty-six years.