Poz barebacking acquaintance says he shouldn't have to disclose his status before sex

  • christastic

    Posts: 376

    Aug 03, 2016 5:10 AM GMT
    I was stunned. Does anyone feel this way? It's basically a don't ask don't tell situation with him. And if guys ask, he tells them he's neg and then fucks them anyway since he's "undetectable". What the hell!? Are people this desperate for sex that they'll trick people into risking their lives? End rant...
  • ANTiSociaLiNJ...

    Posts: 1168

    Aug 03, 2016 5:26 AM GMT
    Okay, so let me get this straight. You have a "poz barebacking acquaintance" who lies to everyone else about his HIV status yet he just happens to tell you the truth? Talk about desperation. If you want t troll the threads you're gonna have to be a little sharper than what you're displaying here. icon_lol.gif
  • christastic

    Posts: 376

    Aug 03, 2016 5:32 AM GMT
    He told a group of us, in the context of a debate about those disclosure laws in some US states (he's American). He says the stigma forces him to lie about it. Vancouver's a big enough city that he can get laid on his visit even if all of us told everyone we know. Geez lol jumping to conclusions much!?
  • theonewhoknoc...

    Posts: 714

    Aug 03, 2016 5:50 AM GMT
    Well, stealthing is nothing new... Or maybe he's one of those "undetectable is the new neg" guys, and is convinced he's telling the truth icon_lol.gif
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    Aug 03, 2016 6:07 AM GMT
    I do have a friend who acquired HIV from injecting meth with strangers he met on grindr for a hookup, he was heartbroken @ the time due to a breakup and was having raunchy sex I suppose. anyway they didn't tell him they had HIV and he got it. So then he was hooked to "Tina" as he calls it & got into a relationship with the one of the dudes who gave it to him.

    He's still on grindr and everything, they both are and I know they are sexually active. I asked him one day if he reveals his HIV status and he said "sometimes" but I didn't believe him.
    I told him he can't be doing that sort of stuff and he got enraged. Stay away from "Tina" too because he told me he started to hear voices. icon_eek.gif

    Anyway we don't talk anymore.

    Also, why on earth would you expect a random stranger to have any compassion towards your livelihood just because you're about to have a casual encounter with someone who doesn't give a shit about you emotionally and possibly won't ever speak to you again if its a no strings attached sort of thing.
  • Eleven

    Posts: 165

    Aug 03, 2016 6:16 AM GMT
    I dunno what id do if I met a person like that, deep down a part of me wants to lure him down a dark alley for sex then cut his dick off, but the logical part of me would just take a head shot of him and post it all over town, if he thinks having HIV has stigmas attatched to them he should know bad it can get for him when he endangers other peoples lives.
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    Aug 03, 2016 6:27 AM GMT
    christastic saidI was stunned. Does anyone feel this way? It's basically a don't ask don't tell situation with him. And if guys ask, he tells them he's neg and then fucks them anyway since he's "undetectable". What the hell!? Are people this desperate for sex that they'll trick people into risking their lives? End rant...

    That's why it's better to assume that the guy you're hooking up with is poz. Use a condom and practice safer sex. Because the world is full of guys that will lie about their status. Or come up with some lame excuse like they're allergic to latex. Or barebacking is totally safe as long as he doesn't cum inside.
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    Aug 03, 2016 7:18 AM GMT
    xrichx said

    allergic to latex. .


    I had someone tell me that shortly after I penitrated him and he made me pull out Cus the laxtex condom was "giving him a rash" I never thought about what u said but I thought it was weird. But I wouldn't do him bare when he asked because that's too dangerous.
  • nice_chap

    Posts: 281

    Aug 03, 2016 7:49 AM GMT
    I think its selfish. He thinks he deserves to fuck whoever he wants, but his partners don't deserve to know the risks. He's only perpetuating the stigma around HIV positive people.
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    Aug 03, 2016 11:46 AM GMT
    That is the politically correct position here in SF. The local gay health clinic position is that Poz men should not be stigmatized and their sexually behavior should not be different than a Neg guy.
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    Aug 03, 2016 2:25 PM GMT
    The science supports TASP (Treatment AS Prevention). I know of only one case where someone became positive having unprotected sex with a person who was undetectable. In many US states it's a felony to be positive and not inform prior to any sexual activity. Still, it's your body. Your responsibility. Everyone is positive. Everyone lies. Protect yourself.
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    Aug 03, 2016 7:46 PM GMT
    Only a complete idiot would bareback bottom with a hookup.
  • Dynamo_spark

    Posts: 224

    Aug 04, 2016 7:43 AM GMT
    The guys who are HIV+ and do not reveal to their sexual partners or hook-up, are walking time bombs #murderers. Oprah Winfrey, when her show was still on air. Interviewed five women who had been infected by the same man. He was later arrested and charged with 'culpible homicide'. The bottom line is, always use a condom, even if your partner or hook-up says he has been tested as negative. Rather safe than sorry. Never share needles while doing drugs, don't do drugs, rather 'Get high on life'. South Africa has the highest rate of HIV+ infected people, including TB. Many children have lost parents or have been infected at birth.
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    Aug 04, 2016 1:10 PM GMT
    Ekho said
    xrichx said

    allergic to latex. .

    I had someone tell me that shortly after I penitrated him and he made me pull out Cus the laxtex condom was "giving him a rash" I never thought about what u said but I thought it was weird. But I wouldn't do him bare when he asked because that's too dangerous.

    Here are 2 articles about different condom materials, including alternatives to latex for people with a latex allergy. At one point the protection offered by polyurethane against the very small size of HIV was under question. But I don't see that concern being raised here, even by the US CDC. Only natural animal membranes appear to be currently identified as being too porous to block HIV and other STDs.

    http://learn.condomdepot.com/condom-materials-a-complete-guide/

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/prevention.html

    (The CDC link should take you directly to "HIV Prevention". On that page click on the 4th green banner down: "How well do condoms prevent HIV?")
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    Aug 04, 2016 5:30 PM GMT
    Sounds like Timmy's up to his usual stunts!
  • christastic

    Posts: 376

    Aug 05, 2016 4:47 AM GMT
    Wasn't Timmy the guy who said that condoms are like eating a sandwich with the bag, or something like that?

    theonewhoknocks saidWell, stealthing is nothing new... Or maybe he's one of those "undetectable is the new neg" guys, and is convinced he's telling the truth icon_lol.gif


    Yeah he mentioned that. He said that he doesn't want to bother explaining undetectable to guys, and says that if other guys really understood, they'll consider him negative anyway. Of course, you can still get infected.
  • mcbrion

    Posts: 305

    Aug 05, 2016 8:53 PM GMT
    christastic saidI was stunned. Does anyone feel this way? It's basically a don't ask don't tell situation with him. And if guys ask, he tells them he's neg and then fucks them anyway since he's "undetectable". What the hell!? Are people this desperate for sex that they'll trick people into risking their lives? End rant...


    If he's American and he's doing that, he's breaking the law. Not to mention he clearly is irrational in his thinking, and has a pretty questionable moral compass to not let others decide if they want to be sexual with someone who's HIV positive. So, he's a danger to others with this attitude. Knowing this, you might suggest that if he's ever reported for non-disclosure (assuming someone gets infected), he will face criminal charges for not disclosing that he is HIV positive. Did no one learn anything from Charlie Sheen's HIV drama? Your friend is likely headed to jail if he's in one of the states with laws around this. And if he is in Canada, the penalties are pretty harsh, too.
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    Aug 06, 2016 10:14 PM GMT
    christastic saidWasn't Timmy the guy who said that condoms are like eating a sandwich with the bag, or something like that?

    theonewhoknocks saidWell, stealthing is nothing new... Or maybe he's one of those "undetectable is the new neg" guys, and is convinced he's telling the truth icon_lol.gif


    Yeah he mentioned that. He said that he doesn't want to bother explaining undetectable to guys, and says that if other guys really understood, they'll consider him negative anyway. Of course, you can still get infected.


    You are full of shit.

    I am NOT considered Negative. I would never say such a stupid thing. Only a stupid person could paraphrase what I said to mean that......that stupid person is you BTW.
    I am POZ UNDETECTABLE...........repeat that 1000 times. I am Undetectable and NON-INFECTIOUS.

    EVERY profile I have says I'm HIV+ and undetectable. Even on this HIV-phobic site. I'm the only honest HIV Undetectable person on this site! To intentionally libel me is apparently justifiable because I am POZ.

    What I have said is I don't date people who are ignorant of HIV, PrEP or TasP. I won't consider THEM, you idiot.

    The laws are archaic, something you justify.

    "Of course you can still get infected" you say.
    By someone undetectable? Simply not true.

    Treatment as prevention: more confidence in zero transmission risk
    http://www.aidsmap.com/HIV-update-3rd-August-2016/page/3076537/
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    Aug 07, 2016 3:08 PM GMT
    christastic saidHe told a group of us, in the context of a debate about those disclosure laws in some US states (he's American). He says the stigma forces him to lie about it. Vancouver's a big enough city that he can get laid on his visit even if all of us told everyone we know. Geez lol jumping to conclusions much!?


    "in the context of a debate" should have given you a clue.

    In the context of a debate, I have taken a side to demonstrate a legal issue. For example, say, in the context of a debate, I was negative and knew that if I got tested the legal framework would work against me if found positive........thus I wouldn't get tested.

    BTW Vancouver is big enough all right! Big enough to have a large group of men who are POZ and Undetectable. Three's no reason to lie or even date negative people AT ALL.

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    Aug 07, 2016 3:42 PM GMT
    Eleven saidI dunno what id do if I met a person like that, deep down a part of me wants to lure him down a dark alley for sex then cut his dick off, but the logical part of me would just take a head shot of him and post it all over town, if he thinks having HIV has stigmas attached to them he should know bad it can get for him when he endangers other peoples lives.


    What a fucking idiot.

    You really want to do harm to a another Gay man? Cut off his dick?

    DO you even know what "undetectable" is? He isn't endangering anyone's life you fucking moron. His chance of infecting someone with HIV is ZERO. So your answer to stigma is MORE stigma? Gay on Gay violence.....for non-infection?

    Here is what the DOJ recommends regarding HIV laws and disclosure:
    " Generally, the best practice would be for states to reform these laws to eliminate HIV-specific criminal penalties except in two distinct circumstances. First, states may wish to retain
    criminal liability when a person who knows he/she is HIV positive commits a (non-HIV specific)
    sex crime where there is a risk of transmission (e.g., rape or other sexual assault).
    The second circumstance is where the individual knows he/she is HIV positive and the evidence clearly demonstrates that individual’s intent was to transmit the virus and that the behavior engaged in had a significant risk of transmission, whether or not transmission actually occurred."

    http://hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/www.hivlawandpolicy.org/files/DOj-HIV-Criminal-Law-Best-Practices-Guide.pdf

    The idea of vigilante "justice" against someone Gay for being HIV POZ but non-infectious is appalling. From someone else who is Gay is despicable. Clearly if someone is HIV and UNDETECTABLE there is no intent, they have undertaken great measures to insure that their partner is NOT infected.

    An UNDETECTABLE person does more to prevent HIV infection than you do (assuming you are Negative) unless you are on PrEP. As an HIV activist who is undetectable I'm insulted by the idea that "we" are skulking in the shadows, pretending to be "negative".....BULLSHIT. I'm PROUD of being UNDETECTABLE, and tell everyone within ear shot, on every app, on every profile that I am UNDETECTABLE.

    You won't have post my pics around town. I already have effectively. But if you think for a second you can do bodily harm to ME because I am POZ............don't count on it, not for a second.

    THIS is stigma. Horrible, horrible stigma. To the point of violence. You are a sick fucker. I don't think I've read anything worse by a gay man. Stupid, ill informed, draconian, and worst of all......counter productive. As it only leads to more infections.



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    Aug 07, 2016 4:08 PM GMT
    mcbrion said
    christastic saidI was stunned. Does anyone feel this way? It's basically a don't ask don't tell situation with him. And if guys ask, he tells them he's neg and then fucks them anyway since he's "undetectable". What the hell!? Are people this desperate for sex that they'll trick people into risking their lives? End rant...


    If he's American and he's doing that, he's breaking the law. Not to mention he clearly is irrational in his thinking, and has a pretty questionable moral compass to not let others decide if they want to be sexual with someone who's HIV positive. So, he's a danger to others with this attitude. Knowing this, you might suggest that if he's ever reported for non-disclosure (assuming someone gets infected), he will face criminal charges for not disclosing that he is HIV positive. Did no one learn anything from Charlie Sheen's HIV drama? Your friend is likely headed to jail if he's in one of the states with laws around this. And if he is in Canada, the penalties are pretty harsh, too.


    I think everyone should disclose. Especially you "Negative" guys who really don't have a clue! it's their 'conviction' that they are negative that causes new HIV infections. They aren't being tested 3-4x a year, they aren't having their viral load verified to be <40. They aren't tested for liver and kidney functions to insure they are healthy enough to continue treatment. They haven't waited 6 months to get two conclusive tests......no they just "think" they are Negative because they tested that way a few years ago.

    I mean really, how many "Negative" guys have waited 3 months between Negative results and not had sex? The expiration date on a Neg HIV result is that day.

    As for being Undetectable and a "danger to others" he isn't. Read the PARTNER STUDY. It's all over the internet. It in it's 7th year. They just did an update last month. It's ongoing. After 50,000 condomless sexual acts no one has gotten HIV.

    You said "assuming someone got infected", that is not how the laws work. In Texas someone is in prison for spitting. No transmission. Rhoades in Iowa was sentenced to 30 years in prison....NO TRANSMISSION.

    In fact most people in prison for HIV non-disclosure have NOT transmitted HIV!
    http://files.unaids.org/en/media/unaids/contentassets/documents/document/2012/BackgroundCurrentLandscapeCriminalisationHIV_Final.pdf
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    Aug 07, 2016 4:21 PM GMT
    jimib saidThe science supports TASP (Treatment AS Prevention). I know of only one case where someone became positive having unprotected sex with a person who was undetectable. In many US states it's a felony to be positive and not inform prior to any sexual activity. Still, it's your body. Your responsibility. Everyone is positive. Everyone lies. Protect yourself.


    What case?

    There isn't one proven. NOT ONE. Even on the CDC page where they mention a case in 2004, it has been subject to debate by other scientists and clinicians. (He probably got HIV when his partner just stated ART).

    I have seen anecdotal "evidence" (as in an forum online claiming they were infected) but even under basic questioning they weren't sure.

    You seem informed on TasP, thank you. There has been one case of HIV transmission on PrEP. Verified. But that hardly makes it worthless. He came across someone who had become resistant (quit taking meds and became detectable again, with similar drugs) an unlikely occurrence. It's still the best protection for a Negative person.
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    Aug 07, 2016 4:55 PM GMT
    Alpha13 saidThat is the politically correct position here in SF. The local gay health clinic position is that Poz men should not be stigmatized and their sexually behavior should not be different than a Neg guy.


    Nope.

    http://strutsf.org/sex-health/

    I agree that POZ men shouldn't be stigmatized. But acknowledged and even celebrated. I'm sure you think that is odd. But for everyone who tests POZ there are more who will decide to go on ART, become undetectable, and further diminish the HIV infection pool.

    Can a POZ man's sexual behaviour be the same as a Negative man's? If he is on ART and undetectable, if the Negative guy is on PrEP, there are many situations where it can be the same.

    There are 50,000 new HIV infections every year! None are from an Undetectable person. One transmission while on PrEP has been verified. The other 49,999 are mostly from Negative guys who *ass*ume they are Negative when in fact they are not.

    Maybe we should be like Cuba and test everyone, mandatory. Get them on treatment and get down to zero new cases.



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    Aug 07, 2016 5:35 PM GMT
    nice_chap saidI think its selfish. He thinks he deserves to fuck whoever he wants, but his partners don't deserve to know the risks. He's only perpetuating the stigma around HIV positive people.


    It was, as the OP said "in the context of a debate"

    .....it's a hypothetical. Yet the OP can't figure that out. But he managed to get the ire of all of you. The OP is perpetuating the stigma!

    So what should the proper punishment be to the "crime" of NOT infecting someone with HIV?

    Nondisclosure isn't smart for either. But when you say he fucks whoever he wants, yet "his partner doesn't deserve to know the risks". You don't know the risks! And you are making an assumption from a hypothetical that the Undetectable guy is the BAD guy!

    WOW, this thread is a piece of garbage! The whole purpose, via a hypothetical "in the context of a debate" (totally lost on the OP) yet the OP uses that as a basis to bash POZ people!
    And one of you assholes threatens to cut off my dick????

    This is one of the WORST cases of stigma I've ever seen. What's worse is the duplicity you readily admit.

    And YES stigma does force people to lie about it (as the OP's friend said....in that context of a debate) and it discourages people from getting tested for HIV.
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    Aug 07, 2016 7:21 PM GMT
    HIV Criminalization

    "For those who are sexually active, the best ways to prevent the transmission of HIV are consistent use of medications to reduce an HIV-positive person’s viral load to near undetectable levels, consistent use of medications by the HIV-negative person to prevent the transmission of HIV (see PrEP), and consistent use of condoms. Attempts to identify and avoid potential partners who may be HIV positive is not endorsed as a method of HIV prevention by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

    Furthermore, criminal prosecution of people living with HIV for mere nondisclosure is not supported by the U.S. Department of Justice. While safe and voluntary disclosure of HIV status is encouraged by public health officials as a best practice, such disclosure is designed to facilitate greater communication and candor about all health risks between sexual partners, not as a substitute for valid HIV prevention techniques. "

    http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/hiv/hiv-criminalization