What are your views of Israel?

  • Joshthegaymer

    Posts: 91

    Aug 14, 2016 5:46 PM GMT
    I am curious to see what your views of Israel are
  • nkmoto

    Posts: 10

    Aug 15, 2016 3:20 AM GMT
    I am okay that Israelites are trying to get there old land back but treating palestinian in inhumane way is notright thing to do.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 15, 2016 4:53 AM GMT
    nkmoto saidI am okay that Israelites are trying to get there old land back but treating palestinian in inhumane way is notright thing to do.

    It's much more complex than that.

    1. Israelites/Jews have lived on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3,300 years.

    2. In fact, Jews are the only national group to ever locally and independently self-govern on this land.
    All others, including the Arab empires, were foreign occupiers who ruled from afar.

    3. Jund Filastin was an Arab military district (of foreign occupiers) until 1099. Under the Arab regimes, the land was split north/south. Filastin included Amman (in Trans/Jordan) but not Acre, Haifa, Nazareth, Safed, Tiberius or Jenin.

    4. Under the Crusaders, Mamlukes and Ottomans, there was no formal jurisdiction named "Palestine". That region was subdivided into different districts.

    5. Prior to the mid-20th century, in common use "Palestine" was the Greek/Latin-European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Land of Israel. Maps equated it with the Jewish "Holy Land" (Terra Sancta), labeled it Judea & Israel, and showed it subdivided into the Jewish tribal areas.

    6. There were no "Palestinians" in antiquity, the word enters the lexicon (according to the Etymological Dictionary) in 1905, and that to describe Jews living in their homeland "Palestine" (see #5).

    7. After WW I, the "Palestine Mandate" was entrusted to re-establish the Jewish state in the Jewish homeland.

    8. The Arabs, into the 1950s, denied that there existed a "Palestine" or "Palestinians". They associated these terms with Jews and claimed they were "Zionist inventions".

    Considering common usage at the time:

    The Palestine Mule Corps was composed of Jewish volunteers in the British Army during WW I
    The Palestine Post is today Israel's Jerusalem Post.
    The Palestine Brewery is now Israel's Nesher Beer.
    The Palestine Symphony became the Israeli Philharmonic.
    The Palestine Brigades were Jews volunteering to the British Army during WW II.

    Meanwhile, the Arabs (not yet known as "Palestinians" were represented by the Arab Higher Committee.

    9. In 1947, the Arab parties violently rejected the UN Partition compromise that would have established a Jewish and Arab state in western Mandate Palestine (the 78% of eastern Mandate Palestine had by then already gained independence as Trans-Jordan, an exclusive (no Jews allowed) Arab state.

    10. Upon the withdrawal of the British on May 14th, 1948, Israel declared independence. The Arabs declared war (though they had already started the violence immediately after the UN resolution passed on 29 Nov 1947).

    11. Before, during and after that war, 711,000 Arabs were displaced (many of them internally, thus technically not even refugees).
    So were nearly 1 million Jews from Arab and Muslim countries.

    12. The Arab refugees (in Arab countries), were thrown (by Arab governments) into camps where they and their descendants still reside, deprived (by Arab governments) the rights guaranteed to all other refugee populations (the right to education, work, relocation [out of camps] and citizenship in their new/host country - not to mention that descendants born in those countries , to parents, grandparents and now great-grandparents born there, should be citizens).

    13. Most of the Jewish refugees came to Israel - doubling its population - where they were relatively quickly if not flawlessly absorbed into the population.

    14. In the areas conquered by invading Arab armies in 1948, no Jews remained (which is how eastern Jerusalem became - for 19 years - so-called "Arab East Jerusalem".

    15. In Israel, more than 150,000 Arabs remained. At first they were governed under military law, but today they (now numbering 1.2 million) are full citizens with equal protection under the law. (The majority of them don't want to live anywhere else, including having their villages ceded to a nascent Palestinian Arab state-to-be).

    16. After the war, Israel was willing to make peace but the Arab League issued it's "3 Nos": No negotiations, No recognition of Israel, No peace.

    17. After another war in 1956 (triggered by continued cross-border attacks by Arab guerrillas into Israel and the illegal blockade of Israel's southern port providing access to the Indian Ocean), Israel withdrew from all territories it captured and was willing to make peace. The Arab League re-issued its "3 NOs".

    18. After another Arab attempt to destroy Israel failed in 1967 (the Six Day War), Israel accepted UN Security Council Resolution 242 (which is binding on the parties). It established the "land for peace" formula, calling on Israel to withdraw "from territories" it had captured (eastern Jerusalem, Judea & Samaria - previously Trans/Jordan's so-called "West Bank" of 19 years, and Gaza) after a comprehensive peace agreement was reached. The extent of the withdrawal was to be negotiated and is not specified (with the UN explicitly rejecting an amendment to insert the word "all"). The Arab League re-issued its "3 NOs".

    19. After another failed Arab attempt to destroy Israel in 1973, one Arab leader finally decided to give peace a chance. Egyptian President Sadat accepted UNSCR 242 and found a ready, willing and able peace partner in Israel - then under its right-most government to date. No other Arab party accepted President Carter's invitation to make peace at Camp David. Egypt - the largest Arab country - was expelled from the Arab League and Sadat assassinated.

    20. After PLO leader Arafat painted himself into a corner during the first Gulf War by supporting Saddam Hussein (to the displeasure of his Gulf sponsors, including Kuwait), in 1992 he finally was obliged to pursue peace. Thus began the Oslo Peace Process which allowed the PLO to form a government (the Palestinian Authority) in the portions of the disputed territories where 97% of the Arab population resides.

    21. Unfortunately in July 2000, Arafat would walk out of President Clinton's Camp David summit, "having said no to everything" (to quote Clinton) and without ever making a counter-offer. He then ordered his Tanzim militia chiefs to violence (the intifada) and would run out the clock at Washington and Taba (2001). We're still waiting for the PA to implement the steps required at the onset of Phase I of the Roadmap to Peace.

    22. In 2008, Abbas (Arafat's successor) squandered an opportunity to make peace with Israel PM Olmert, then in 2010 he ran out the clock on an opening by Netanyahu. And then the Kerry initiative in 2014 (Abbas bailed literally hours before an agreement was reached).

    The Palestinian Arabs aren't mistreated per se. There is a state of war - which they started and perpetuate. Consider that Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 (not just troops, but Jewish villagers, "settlers"). This was a tremendous concession, and while it wasn't everything the Arabs wanted, a peaceful response would have achieved a lot. Instead, Hamas won legislative elections and terrorism from Gaza against innocent Israelis skyrocketed.

    The solution is to make peace, but ironically the Palestinian Arabs (and Jew-haters) are against that. They prefer to "sacrifice" (their term) now than to compromise and make peace, because they still dream of destroying Israel, throwing the Jews into the sea and achieving "total victory". (Just in the disputed territories, something like 70-80% believe that violence can achieve what negotiations can't. Hmmm, what would that be?)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 15, 2016 4:54 AM GMT
    See also:

    "Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland
    and early 20th century Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine".

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491

    Arabs (like Arabic) NOT indigenous to Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4019405

    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729

    Jerusalem
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/887747

    Jerusalem was NEVER an Arab Capital, not even of Jund Filastin ~1,000 years ago,
    a military district of foreign Arab empires that occupied Israel
    (Spain was occupied for longer, and more recently)

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4222798

    1947-1948: Arabs reject compromise and attack Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/960691

    Israel an NOT "Apatheid" State
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4235693

    Let's talk peace: The two-state solution
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4180210

    Poll: Two-Thirds of Palestinian Arabs support murder of Israeli Jews, 25% even if attackers are little girls
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4192905
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 15, 2016 4:55 AM GMT
    For the GAY angle on this topic:

    Gay Palestinians
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1061322/?forumpage=2

    Countries that support gays or kill them
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/984797

    Saudi Arabia says it will support human rights as long as they can still kill gay people
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4074318

    Israel Plans Monument to Gays Persecuted by Nazis
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/3401610/

    Israelis are ready to follow Ireland's lead and legalize gay marriage
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4069592

    Tel Aviv Pride 2015
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4064516

    Middle East's biggest LGBT pride parade draws 200,000
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4220173

    Israel is a secular, democratic, state (gay friendly, too)
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/3977469

    Vittorio Arrigoni murdered in Gaza by Palestinian terrorists - because he was gay?
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1506698

    Hamas Commander, Accused of Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4188753

    A gay Iranian poet seeks asylum in Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4198759

    Israel holds its first transgender beauty contest
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4205389

    Gay Palestinian Seeks Residency in Israel on Humanitarian Grounds
    http://www.haaretz.com/gay-palestinian-seeks-residency-in-israel-on-humanitarian-grounds-1.316274

    For Gay Palestinians, Tel Aviv Is Mecca
    http://forward.com/opinion/1125/for-gay-palestinians-tel-aviv-is-mecca

    "Pinkwashing"- LGBT Conference in Chicago Turns Violent From Anti-Israel Protesters
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4169945

    Why #Pinkwashing Insults Gays and Hurts Palestinians
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4054588
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 15, 2016 6:13 AM GMT
    Human Rights Watch: Hamas abusing Palestinians in Gaza
    International rights group releases 43-page report detailing severe abuses such as torture of detainees, arrests without warrants, and unfair trials.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/human-rights-watch-hamas-abusing-palestinians-in-gaza-1.468075

    Full report:
    http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/10/03/gaza-arbitrary-arrests-torture-unfair-trials
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 15, 2016 7:00 AM GMT
    Not a place I ever wish to visit.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 15, 2016 7:26 AM GMT
    The modern day "Israel" was founded by terrorism. In my book as a Palestinian Christian, modern day "Israel" doesn't exist. It is Palestine! There is no "Israel". Nobody like so-called "Israel", for idiot people that like "Israel" are clueless about the Palestinian cause or they are Palestinian haters.

    So you asking us what our views of Israel? Google on Youtube.









    Oh yeah, just ignore that Israeli propagandist wmolverine.
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    Aug 15, 2016 7:45 AM GMT
    68 years of theft and murder. Palestinians in slaved in 1948, they will return. Free Palestine.
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    Aug 15, 2016 7:49 AM GMT
    Aunty_Jack said68 years of theft and murder. Palestinians in slaved in 1948, they will return. Free Palestine.


    Free Palestine!

    BDuIj_gCcAA4NoG.jpg
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 15, 2016 8:22 AM GMT
    Palestine is the Greek/Latin-European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland.

    ogwhu.jpg
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    Aug 15, 2016 1:52 PM GMT
    mwolverine saidPalestine is the Greek/Latin-European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland.

    ogwhu.jpg


    My brother & I owning still land there from my pre-state Israeli ancestors in then-Palestine, that's how I always thought of the name. Also given five years of Hebrew school with those childhood history lessons, Palestine was not an enemy name to me, it was Jewish Israel, one and the same. Though I probably became more aware of the conflict in my teens, it always struck me so odd that there would be an anti-Israel group named Palestinians that I'd jokingly refer to myself as a Palestinian Jew because I've both the address and the humor.
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    Aug 15, 2016 2:49 PM GMT
    dont want to have any views on Isreal.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 15, 2016 4:46 PM GMT
    Here's a view just for you, pellaz:

    nasaisrael.jpg


    Here's one from closer:

    02Blackerby_TelAviv-tmagArticle.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 15, 2016 6:20 PM GMT
    Palestine is Palestine. Israel is a 20th Century political invention.

    My view of Israel is basically the Latin-American view, as expressed by the Chilean customs official who gave an Israeli's passport this unique stamping a year ago:

    talpassport.jpg

    icon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gif

    LONG LIVE PALESTINE
  • Corby

    Posts: 78

    Aug 16, 2016 12:26 AM GMT
    I was volunteering in Dheisheh camp (near Betlehem) few years ago! Acctually it is really beauiful land. To see reality what is going on there is sad - Jews who have been through the Holocaust for years carried out the Holocaust on the Palestinians, a bit different way but still!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 16, 2016 1:55 AM GMT
    Corby> Jews who have been through the Holocaust for years carried out the Holocaust on the Palestinians, a bit different way but still!

    Which is akin to saying that Rabin was like hitler because they both had 2 ears.

    The Holocaust left 6 million Jews (as well as 6 million others) dead.
    Methodically and intentionally mass murdered in a handful of years.
    In Poland, the Jewish population dropped from 3 million to 0.1 million.

    In contrast, since 1967 (nearly 50 years), the Arab population in the disputed territories has increased from a few hundred thousand to 4-5 million.
    Is that anyone's idea of "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing"?

    The differences don't end there. There were no universities in the territories prior to 1967, and much of the population lacked running water and electricity. With the grid extended, refrigerators and other modern necessities became standard. The introduction of tractors (replacing wooden plows) and the implementation of modern farming techniques spurred agricultural output - and the economy, which grew at a pace faster than the economic "miracles" of Singapore and South Korea.

    This is your Jewish "holocaust" on the Palestinian Arabs?

    Can you imagine the nazis doing that for Jews?!

    Let me clarify one more thing. Propagandists like to claim that Gaza is "one of the [if not the] most densely populated places on Earth". Not only isn't that true (the population density is similar to Tel Aviv's and Gibraltar) but the Warsaw Ghetto was nearly 30x more densely populated.

    Godwin 1, Corby 0


    Sure, there is an underlying political problem, yet it is the Jews who have sued for peace while the Arab parties have opted for violence.

    Let's talk peace: The two-state solution
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4180210

    Can you imagine the nazis offering to make peace with Jews and the Jews continuing to attack German civilians?
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    Aug 16, 2016 2:18 AM GMT
    I don't think it should be a country. More like a state. An American state located in south Florida for all I care. America pretty much pays for its problematic existence so why not? What use is it in the Middle East? Oh wait.
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    Aug 16, 2016 2:42 AM GMT
    The US is the paymaster, and if at any point it were to threaten to cut the apron strings, Israel would announce a settlement with the Palestinians on the international consensus terms for peace within the day.

    In other words, Israel would not wait for the threat to be carried out.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 16, 2016 2:42 AM GMT
    BP201> America pretty much pays for its problematic existence

    Asset Test: How the United States Benefits from Its Alliance with Israel
    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/asset-test-how-the-united-states-benefits-from-its-alliance-with-israel

    The U.S.-Israel relationship has traditionally been defined in terms of a moral obligation, shared cultural and political values, and common strategic interests. Since the end of the Cold War, however, the two governments have preferred not to publicly discuss the details of their security relationship, while other types of crucial cooperation have gone unrecognized by the media and other observers, making it easier for critics to portray Israel as a liability rather than an asset.

    In this report, Michael Eisenstadt and David Pollock highlight the numerous, often-ignored benefits of the special bilateral relationship. In the hard security realm, Israel remains an important partner in dealing with evolving terrorist and military threats as well as preserving the competitiveness of the U.S. defense-industrial base through joint development efforts and cutting-edge technology. Just as important, Israel has facilitated U.S. efforts to deal with emerging soft security challenges related to economic competitiveness, the information technology revolution, resource sustainability, and public health.


    See also:
    http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/friends-with-benefits-why-the-u.s.-israeli-alliance-is-good-for-america
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3386

    Aug 16, 2016 3:07 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> if at any point it [US] were to threaten to cut the apron strings, Israel would announce a settlement with the Palestinians

    As if what has precluded a peace agreement was Israel.

    Not in 1937 and 1947 when the Jewish Agency accepted compromise and peaceful coexistence, only to see the Arab parties violently reject it.

    1947-1948: Arabs reject compromise and attack Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/960691

    Not in 1949, 1956 or 1967 - when after another failed Arab attempt to destroy Israel, it accepted UN Security Council Resolution 242 (which is binding on the parties). The Arab League rejected issuing and reiterating its infamous "3 NOs": No negotiations, No recognition, No peace.

    Note: up to this point, Israel had barely received any US aid.

    After another Arab attempt to destroy Israel in 1973 ended in failure, Egyptian President Sadat finally decided to give peace a chance and accepted UNSCR 242. He found a ready, willing and able peace partner in Israel - then under it's furthest right government to date if not ever. No other Arab party would heed President Carter's call to summit at Camp David. Egypt would be expelled from the Arab League and Sadat assassinated.

    When Arafat painted himself into a corner by supporting Saddam Hussein after he invaded Kuwait (thus alienating his Gulf sponsors), he was forced to seek peace at Madrid and Oslo (1993). But when it came time to make peace at President Clinton's Camp David summit (2000), he couldn't do it, saying "no to everything" (to quote Clinton) and making no counter-offers. He walked out and ordered his Tanzim chiefs to violence and the intifada, then running out the clock on peace efforts in Washington and Taba (2001). We're still waiting for the Palestinian Authority to fulfill its obligations at the outset of Phase I of the Roadmap to Peace.

    In 2008, it was Abbas, Arafat's successor, who borrowed Hamas language and called the Olmert peace plan "a waste of time" - because Israel only offered to withdraw from a net 99.5% of the disputed territories.

    In 2010, Abbas ran out the clock when Netanyahu instituted a construction moratorium to kick-start negotiations.

    And in 2014, he torpedoed Kerry's efforts.

    Let's talk peace: The two-state solution
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4180210


    Just how drunk on the kool-aid must one be to suggest that if only more pressure were applied to Israel peace would follow?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 16, 2016 3:30 AM GMT
    I'll watch the video below and then answer your question.

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    Aug 16, 2016 9:46 AM GMT
    mwolverine said
    nkmoto saidI am okay that Israelites are trying to get there old land back but treating palestinian in inhumane way is notright thing to do.

    It's much more complex than that.
    ...


    @mwolverine: Absolutely brilliant, concise, historically factually accurate exegesis.
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    Aug 16, 2016 4:11 PM GMT
    If you're in the habit of quoting the troll Sulla, which you'll notice only theantijoke (to the best of my information) does, then I'll put you on ignore for good.

    If not, then by all means come and have a go (if you think you're hard enough...)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 16, 2016 4:18 PM GMT
    The Palestine conflict is in fact not very complex, at least by comparison to other world conflicts where a solution is hard even to think of, never mind to implement.

    In Palestine, the solution's been on the table for 40 years - the international consensus for peace based on a two-state settlement approximating the pre-June 1967 borders that the US has vetoed, annually, since 1976. There's nothing else that even comes close.

    And it is not just the international community that is not divided.

    The World Court judgement declaring the Israeli wall and settlements in Palestine illegal under international law was notable if anything for its remarkable unanimity (14-1 majority).

    The respected international human rights organizations (Amnesty, HRW) are likewise in total agreement, and in fact in total agreement with mainstream ISRAELI human rights organizations (B'Tselem, Gisha), when it comes to Israel's responsibilities and ours:

    1.) The blockade of Gaza constitutes collective punishment and must end WITHOUT THE CONDITION THAT PALESTINIAN MILITANTS DISARM OR DESIST FROM RESISTANCE TO SIEGE AND OCCUPATION.

    2.) The occupation is a brutal and lawless enterprise that denies Palestinians their right to national self-determination, among many others.

    3.) The Israeli High Court is a cynical exercise in self-justification that fails to protect the rights of occupied Palestinians.

    4.) Palestinian refugees have the legal right to return to their homes IN ISRAEL.

    5.) The US and all countries have an obligation not to sell weapons to Israel, as the latter meets the definition of a "persistent violator of human rights", and cannot be trusted to use said weapons legally.

    In the real world (that is, outside the fantasyland of the prevailing political orthodoxies in the US and Israel), these points are accepted and considered uncontroversial.

    Is Israel a large or self-sufficient country in any position to rebuff such terms should the superpower insist they be implemented? No, it's a client state that leeches off the US to get by. Your leverage over them is total. And until you exercise it, you're an accomplice (THE accomplice) to its crimes which the world condemns.