Why has the West been so supportive of Palestinian nationalism, yet so reluctant to support the Kurds, the largest nation in the world without a state

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 24, 2016 10:50 PM GMT
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/The-case-for-Kurdish-statehood-462555The Kurds have been instrumental in fighting Islamic State (ISIS); have generously accepted millions of refugees fleeing ISIS to the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG); and embrace Western values such as gender equality, religious freedom and human rights. They are also an ancient people with an ethnic and linguistic identity stretching back millennia and have faced decades of brutal oppression as a minority. Yet they cannot seem to get sufficient support from the West for their political aspirations.

    The Palestinians, by contrast, claimed a distinct national identity relatively recently, are less than one-third fewer in number (in 2013, the global Palestinian population was estimated by the Palestinian Authority to reach 11.6 million), control land that is less than 1/15th the size of the KRG territory and have not developed their civil society or economy with nearly as much success as the Kurds. Yet the United Nations, the European Union, the Arab League and other international bodies have all but ignored Kurdish statehood dreams while regularly prioritizing Palestinian ambitions over countless other global crises....

    ...With an estimated worldwide population of about 35 million (including about 28 million in the KRG or adjacent areas), the Kurds are the fourth-largest ethnic group in the Middle East (after the Arabs, Persians and Turks), and have faced decades of persecution as a minority in Turkey, Iran and Iraq.

    The 1988 “Anfal” attacks, which included the use of chemical weapons, destroyed about 2,000 villages and killed at least 50,000 Kurds, according to human rights groups (Kurds put the number at nearly 200,000). Several international bodies have recognized those atrocities as a genocide....

    ...The Kurdish commitment to gender equality is yet another reason that Kurdish statehood merits Western support. There is no gender discrimination in the Kurdish army: their women fight (and get beheaded) alongside the men. Last December, Kurdistan hosted the International Conference on Women and Human Rights.

    The Kurds are also the only credible ground force fighting ISIS, as has been clear since the ISIS threat first emerged in 2014. ISIS “would have totally controlled the Baji oil field and all of Kirkuk had the [Kurdish] Peshmerga not defended it,”...

    ...A Kurdish state would also have excellent relations with Israel, another moderate, non-Arab, pro-Western democracy in the region. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu endorsed Kurdish independence in 2014, and Syrian Kurds – after recently declaring their autonomy – expressed an interest in developing relations with Israel.

    By contrast, the Palestinian Authority slanders Israel at every opportunity...

    ...By almost any measure, a Kurdish state deserves far more support from the West....

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Aug 25, 2016 5:39 AM GMT
    My uncle, who fled Iraq (on foot) in the 1940s, had nothing but good things to say about the Kurds.
    The friendliest people, he said.

    The Kurds are an ethnic group going back some 2600 years.
    Predating the Arab invasion and conquest of Mesopotamia (Iraq).

    They're not some geographic group that emerged from post WW I divisions.
    To the contrary, they got screwed after the end of WW I.
    The 1920 Treaty of Sevres envisioned a Kurdistan.
    When it was renegotiated in 1923 in Lausanne, it had disappeared from the map.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Aug 25, 2016 2:56 PM GMT
    Oh so you are long settled in the middle east. I've one set of great grandparents who had settled in pre-modern-state Israel and my grandmother though born in the US lived there as a young child before moving back here. (there was a lot of back and forth in those days.) We've still property there in Petah Tikva. I can google map it from their streets view. So bizarre.

    We know very little about the Kurds here in the states--they don't make headline news as does other aspects of the middle east--and from Biden's recent comments it might seem they could be better supported, especially considering that it seems from what I've been reading about their culture that they'd make a good ally to the US.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-08-24/biden-warns-kurds-in-goodwill-visit-to-turkeyBiden Warns Kurds in Goodwill Visit to Turkey

    ...The vice president also offered a stern warning to Kurdish forces on the ground in Syria that they would lose U.S. support if they don't retreat to the eastern bank of the Euphrates, immediately to the east of Jarabulus.

    "We have made it absolutely clear that they [pro-Kurdish forces] must go back across the [Euphrates] River. They cannot and will not, under no circumstances, get American support if they do not keep that commitment," Biden said, according to Kurdish newspaper Hurriyet Daily News.

    Kurdish involvement in the two-year-old U.S.-led war against the Islamic State group has become a major sticking point between the NATO partners – Kurdish fighters in Iraq and Syria have proven one of the most capable and effective combat forces on the ground, for a conflict to which President Barack Obama has declined to deploy large formations of American ground troops. The Turks, however, fear empowering Kurdish fighters in neighboring Syria and Iraq could further embolden separatist sentiments among the Kurdish population in Turkey....

    It's wild the complexity of the issues over there because then there's this:

    http://aranews.net/2016/08/turkey-fighting-kurds-pretext-combatting-isis-syria-politician/Turkey fighting Kurds under pretext of combatting ISIS in Syria

    KOBANE – Turkey is fighting Kurds under the excuse of combatting the Islamic State group (ISIS) in northern Syria, Kurdish politician Idris Nassan told ARA News on Thursday.

    The Rojava Self-Administration in northern Syria said in a public statement that the main goal of Turkey’s intervention into Syria’s Jarabulus is to ‘eliminate our democratic project’.

    According to the Kurds, the Jarabulus operation is the result of an agreement between the Syrian government and Turkey.

    So while I'm not real familiar with the issue, on first look it seems they are three times the size of the Palestianian population but also they've got three times the countries that they're dealing with to try and forge a homeland. It's strange to think of how far the world has come, yet still so unsettled.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Aug 26, 2016 1:38 AM GMT
    To answer the question in the title, could it be because the Kurds didn't perpetrate terrorist attacks in the West?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Jul 26, 2017 12:31 PM GMT
    Perhaps the Kurds aren't internationally attractive because they aren't fighting the Jews?

    French President Macron condemns anti-Zionism as anti-Semitism
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Jul 27, 2017 12:47 AM GMT
    ROTFL. Unable to address the topic here, SpamSam started a new thread titled:

    SpamSam> Zionist propaganda: Kurds don't have a country because of the Palestinian problem

    Is this just another straw man or cognitive impairment?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Jul 28, 2017 2:47 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> Supporters of Palestinian Rights Are Hypocrites Because the Kurds Also Seek a State (Even While Many Pro-Palestinians Support the Kurdish Cause)

    Swing and another miss.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Aug 17, 2017 3:33 PM GMT

    A number of senior Iraqi Kurd officials have visited Israel over the last several weeks urging Jerusalem to both support its independence and send a message to Washington to do the same, Zionist Union MK Ksenia Svetlova said on Monday.

    A referendum on independence in the Kurdistan region in Iraq is scheduled for September 25.

    The Jerusalem Post reported on Sunday that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told a delegation of US Republican congressmen on Thursday that he is in favor of an independent Kurdish state in parts of Iraq.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Nov 25, 2017 4:00 AM GMT
    How the Kurdish Quest for Independence in Iraq Backfired
    By SERGIO PEÇANHA NOV. 5, 2017

    Iraqi Kurds voted overwhelmingly for independence in late September, but in the month since that referendum, Iraqi government forces have seized one-fifth of Kurdish-controlled territory.

    That loss of territory has handed the Iraqi Kurdish leadership a humiliating setback in their generations-long push for statehood.

    Kurds in Iraq are mostly concentrated in a semiautonomous region whose legal status has been in limbo despite an Iraqi constitutional directive in 2005 to negotiate the borders.

    The boundaries of the Kurdish autonomous region have been long contested, but they are often defined by a cease-fire line unilaterally established by the Iraqi government after it suppressed a Kurdish uprising in 1991.

    Kurds took control of disputed territories that are rich in resources.

    In 2014, as Iraq faced a fight against the Islamic State, the Kurds capitalized on chaos in the region and took control of contested areas that the Kurdish leadership had long claimed as its people’s ancestral lands.

    The additional territories included oil-rich areas, beyond the boundaries of the area controlled by Kurds when the United States invaded Iraq in 2003. And they included Kirkuk, a historically multiethnic city that is home to about a million people.

    But days after September’s referendum, government forces swiftly reclaimed control of Kirkuk, along with its oil fields and nearby towns claimed by the Kurds.

    Vast oil reserves and about half of Iraq’s farmland are in territories claimed by Iraqi Kurds, including the disputed areas.

    Kurds signed oil contracts, fuelingresentment from the central government.

    Iraq’s instability in recent years has allowed the Kurdish administration to cut deals directly with industry. In 2011, the Kurdish Regional Government signed a contract with Exxon Mobil for oil exploration in Kurdish-controlled areas, in a deal that angered the Iraqi government as a violation of Iraqi sovereignty.

    Two of the exploration areas were beyond the cease-fire line. Exxon Mobil was then under the leadership of Rex W. Tillerson, who is now secretary of state. One of those fields, in Bashiqa, is on the fringes of the territory recently retaken by the Iraqi government, according to an analysis by IHS Markit.

    Neighboring countries opposed the push for Iraqi Kurdish Independence.

    About 30 million Kurds are spread over an area nearly the size of France that spans the Middle East and the Caucasus. International boundaries drawn after World War I left most Kurds split between Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran. All four countries, along with the United States, have condemned the Iraqi Kurdish referendum.

    As Kurds gained power in Iraq, Syrian Kurds became a critical force in the fight against the Islamic State and made substantial territorial gains in Syria.

    For Turkey, an important United States ally in the region, the Kurdish growth in Syria and the independence movement in Iraq are considered a threat that could embolden Turkey’s own Kurdish population.

    For decades, Turkey has been waging a war against militants from the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or P.K.K. After a two-year truce, violence has picked up again, killing more than 3,200 people since 2015.

    Since the referendum, Turkey and Iran have offered support to Baghdad, increasing pressure on Kurdish leaders in Iraq.

    Massoud Barzani, the autonomous region’s president since 2005, recently announced that he would resign, and this past week the Iraqi government said that talks with the Kurds had failed.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Nov 25, 2017 9:19 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar flunky> to offset other threads devoted to relevant and current news stories about Israel?

    The news story above, from the NY Times, is a "current" story from this month.

    Recall further that he similarly sought to dismiss my first thread about Syria.
    Nothing to see, he said (covering up for the murderous Assad regime he champions along with Hizbullah and Iran).
    That one thread about Syria, he claimed, was just an attempt to divert from the dozens of anti-Israel threads back then.

    The question in the subject line isn't answered, but it doesn't take much to figure out that this Jew-hater is all about Palestinian Arab rights and has nothing to say about Kurdish rights or their oppressors - Syrians, Iranians, Iraqis and Turks, all of whom he's championed at one time or another.

    This despite his claim that "self-determination" is the pillar of his belief (he just doesn't understand what that means and it is yet another faux "principle" of convenience which is wielded selectively and out-of-context only against Israel. Why was there no call for Palestinian Arab independence from 1948-1967, when the disputed territories were in the hands of Arab governments?

    They hypocrisy grows when taken together with these other threads:

    Simon Deng, Former Slave: "There Are Peoples Who Suffer From... Anti-Israelism Even More Than The Israelis. I Belong To One Of Those People."

    Palestinians receive 13x's more foreign aid than Ethiopians Per Capita

    Let alone how little he knew, cared or has said about even Palestinian Arab suffering at the hands of others, e.g. in Lebanon in general and in Nahr al Bared as well as in Syria and at Yarmouk. When he finally said something, it was to minimize those atrocities.



    If the Palestinian Arabs weren't fighting against the Jews/Israel, this "all around shitty excuse for a human being" (as per Aristo/Shark/speare) would care as little for the Palestinian Arabs as he does for the Kurds, for Ethiopians and those still enslaved in the 21st century.

    AyaTrolLiar JPhlegM has previously admitted he's not a "humanitarian" nor a "peacenik".
    It's clear he's not pro-Palestinian Arab as much as he is anti-Israel/Jewish.

    His actual guiding principle is simply hatred of Jews and all things Jewish. Jewish holidays, Judaism - the Jewish religion, Jewish culture, Hebrew - the Jewish language and, of course, Israel - the Jewish state. All of which he has railed against here on RJ!

    Why does virulent Anti-Semitism play such a large role in MidEast discussions on RJ?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Nov 26, 2017 6:38 AM GMT
    Here we again see the exposition of this theme.

    The Arab world's dirty secret
    By MONA ELTAHAWY, Nov. 10, 2008

    || We are a racist people in Egypt and we are in deep denial about it.

    || The racism I saw on the Cairo Metro has an echo in the Arab world at large, where the suffering in Darfur goes ignored because its victims are black and because those who are creating the misery in Darfur are not Americans or Israelis and we only pay attention when America and Israel [allegedly] behave badly.

    || Mona Eltahawy is a columnist for Egypt's Al Masry Al Youm and Qatar's Al Arab. She is based in New York.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Dec 11, 2017 5:51 AM GMT

    || the Palestinian leadership and much of the political elite opposed the referendum in keeping with the position of the Arab League and because Israel is the main backer of Kurdish independence.

    || “They want to put another Israel in the heart of Arab countries, Muslim countries,” he said.

    Never mind that Kurds predate the Arab expansion and colonialism by thousands of years.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 11, 2017 6:17 AM GMT
    Back to the original question - why don't the Kurds get any support from the west? Simple answer: The US won't support the Kurds because Turkey doesn't want them to. The US sees Turkey as a necesssry ally in the mideast and will indulge it's wishes in regard to the Kurds, and many other matters. Turkey would war against the Kurds (and periodically does) if it sees the Kurds becoming too united in obtaining statehood. The rest of the "West" doesn't matter - they won't let Turkey into the E.U., and even if they don't like it's move towards dictatorship, they still need Turkey's help in stemming the tide of hoards of Africans trying to get into Europe. Even if Europe didn't need Turkey, the only support they might give the Kurds would be useless lip service.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Dec 11, 2017 7:27 AM GMT
    Covfefe> Palestinian nationalists have nothing against the Kurds, but have against Kurds who support a "Jewish state".

    You do understand that Kurds, like Jews, have lived in their homeland long before the Arabs (or Turks) invaded and colonized them, right?

    The Kurds, like many Native Americans, see Jews as the indigenous populations.

    Arabs (like Arabic) NOT indigenous to Israel

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Dec 11, 2017 7:42 AM GMT
    Puppenjunge saidhe US won't support the Kurds because Turkey doesn't want them to. The US sees Turkey as a necesssry ally in the mideast and will indulge it's wishes in regard to the Kurds

    Yet at present the issue (about which Americans barely if ever hear about) is Kurdish independence from IRAQ.

    More than 92% of voters in Iraqi Kurdistan back independence

    Or course, the Kurdish regions of Turkey would then have a precedent, so that much is true.

    But why is the world silent to the reaction?

    After Iraqi Kurdish Independence Vote Backfires, 'I Do Not Regret It,' Says Barzani

    By "backfire", they mean Iraq rolling in troops to seize the area.

    || The Kurdistan region Barzani was instrumental in carving out from the ruins of Saddam Hussein's Iraq has been turned upside down. Barzani, 71, pushed through a historic referendum for Kurdish independence in September. But it backfired, and instead of the repercussions he expected — economic sanctions and temporary border closures — the Iraqi government sent in troops.

    || Iraqi forces, including Iranian-backed Shiite paramilitaries, took back the city of Kirkuk, oil fields and towns and cities in a large swath of northern Iraq. Federal troops are retaking borders with Iran, Turkey and Syria that the Kurds have controlled since the 1990s.

    || The Kurds have also lost territory they've held since 2014, when Peshmerga fighters moved in to fight ISIS after entire divisions of the Iraqi army collapsed.

    || "They were using American weapons – Abrams tanks and other things the American government gave to the Iraqi government to use in the fight against ISIS. But they used it against the Kurdish people, and the Americans stayed silent," he says.

    || After Saddam Hussein's genocidal campaign against the Kurds in the 1980s, the United States created the conditions for the Kurdistan region to flourish, leading a no-fly zone in 1991 protecting the Kurds from air strikes. For the first time in Iraq, the Kurds gained control of their borders, creating a region that — while not exactly democratic — was seen as the most stable, prosperous and US-friendly in Iraq.

    || The Kurds and their Peshmerga fighters have been one of the strongest U.S. allies for two decades. US-backed Kurdish forces — often unpaid and under-equipped — played a crucial role in the multinational fight against ISIS.

    || Kurdish leaders had made clear the September vote would not trigger an immediate declaration of independence. Until the last moment – at a press conference the evening before the referendum – Barzani seemed to think the worst repercussions would be border closures or economic sanctions. But with so many fault lines in the Middle East, no country was willing to see the breakup of Iraq.

    See also:

    Iraqi Forces Sweep Into Kirkuk, Checking Kurdish Independence Drive

    Iraqi forces enter Kirkuk as Kurds flee

    Iraqi forces move deeper into Kurdish-held areas, redrawing political map

    Where is the UN?!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Dec 11, 2017 7:50 AM GMT
    Covfefe> Israeli Jew ancestors: Not " indigenous populations". They were immigrants.

    Jews (like the Kurds) have lived on this land on their land, CONTINUOUSLY, for at least 3,300 years.

    As discussed here:

    "Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland
    and early 20th century Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine".


    Covfefe proves the point of this thread, where even in the ONE thread about Kurdistan he seeks to focus on Jews/Israel.

    Where is the AyaTrolLiar JPhleM, who selectively babbles endlessly about the most important right of self-determination... but evidently only for the "Palestinians" (as a foil against the Jews/Israel), not for the Kurds let alone the Jews (as the racist put it: despite the alleged importance of self-determination, "one Jewish state is too many").
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Dec 15, 2017 12:40 AM GMT
    Plooje said
    Because they aren't pitted against Israel. And Israel is "public enemy number one"

    Ding ding ding! You just won this thread!

    The sad truth is that had the nazis succeeded in genociding theJews....
    Or had the French not dethroned Faisal in Syria after WW I....
    ....No one would have ever heard of "Palestinians".


    "Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland
    and early 20th century Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine".


    Arabs (like Arabic) NOT indigenous to Israel

    The Palestine Paradox

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 15, 2017 3:38 AM GMT
    Turkey is a key alli of the USA and its friends and they hate Kurds so to keep based in Turkey USA has to go along with it. Israel of course is another key regional Alli thats all it comes down to. World politics 101
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Dec 17, 2017 5:28 PM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidTurkey is a key alli of the USA and its friends and they hate Kurds so to keep based in Turkey USA has to go along with it. Israel of course is another key regional Alli thats all it comes down to. World politics 101

    Let's say that Washington DC is "Turkish occupied", is that true of other western countries?
    And what about the rest of the world, as measured at the UN?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5728

    Mar 12, 2018 11:14 PM GMT
    Rojava, in northern Syria:

    How Syria’s Kurds Are Trying To Create A Democracy | Vox