Guy Having a Crisis over Jesus Appearing to People with His Resurrection - What Percent of This Is Mass Hallucination? HELP ME!!!!

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    Oct 03, 2016 8:11 PM GMT
    Bart Ehrman Rephrasing the Guy's Question:
    If the gospel writers believed in Jesus’ bodily resurrection, why did they portray so many as not recognizing him?

    Stephenoabc/Steefen

    Bart says Paul, Peter, and Mary had visions of Jesus [and the rolling snowball got bigger and bigger...]

    As for Paul, I responded:

    What Gospel was Paul reading when at 1 Corinthians 15: 5, we see, he appeared to Cephas first, then to the 10 (12 minus Judas and minus Cephas, himself). Even if we go with the second appearance being men only, we still only have 11.
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    Oct 03, 2016 8:12 PM GMT
    Steefen, author of the Greatest Bible Study in Historical Accuracy, Second, Edition (to be published to replace the First Edition)

    No one recognized Jesus because Jesus was a role played by multiple people.

    When the cross with an effigy of Julius Caesar was raised as Marc Antony spoke at Caesar’s funeral, the lamentation was as great as the mother of Jesus at Jesus’ cross (not saying that was an historical event).

    Julius Caesar was raised from the dead when the raised cross of his funeral was resurrected in the Jesus story.

    Jesus was raised from the dead when General Titus became the savior of Jerusalem by ending the Civil War and restoring peace.

    Jesus, representing the new Jewish Kingdom of God/Heaven/Righteousness, was killed by Rome; Rome became actor in the Jesus role, resurrected the Jesus role. That is why no one recognized Jesus.

    Why was Jesus mistaken as a gardener? You have to know Christianity in Antiquity. There was a gardener, a botanist, involved in putting Rome into the Jesus role, grafting the Jewish Jesus back to Roman leadership (general and emperor) from which it came, a Julius Caesar military leader and head of state.
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    Oct 04, 2016 5:04 PM GMT
    Stephenoabc/Steefen

    Bart says Paul, Peter, and Mary had visions of Jesus [and the rolling snowball got bigger and bigger...]

    As for Paul, I responded:

    What Gospel was Paul reading when at 1 Corinthians 15: 5, we see, he appeared to Cephas first, then to the 10 (12 minus Judas and minus Cephas, himself). Even if we go with the second appearance being men only, we still only have 11.

    Bart Ehrman
    He wasn't reading a Gospel. These are traditions that he learned.

    Stephenoabc/Steefen
    Four gospels ignore Paul's disciple count at 1 Cor 15: 5--that Judas was still alive.

    The traditions did not tell him Judas died before the resurrection. Interesting. Pappias’ account supports Paul’s potential disciple count error. Pappias and Paul seem to be in agreement that there were the original 12 to whom Jesus could appear.

    Dr. Ehrman, did Pappias get counter-arguments are called a heretic for putting forth Judas lived in sadness until he was run over by a chariot?

    Note below (last sentence) that the question of Judas’ death caused C. S. Lewis to reject each assertion in the Bible as historical truth.

    There are several different accounts of the death of Judas, including two in the modern Biblical canon:

    Matthew 27:3–10 says that Judas returned the money to the priests and committed suicide by hanging himself. They used it to buy the potter’s field. The Gospel account presents this as a fulfillment of prophecy.
    The Acts of the Apostles says that Judas used the money to buy a field, but fell headfirst, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This field is called Akeldama or Field of Blood.
    The non-canonical Gospel of Judas says Judas had a vision of the disciples stoning and persecuting him.
    Another account was preserved by the early Christian leader, Papias: “Judas walked about in this world a sad example of impiety; for his body having swollen to such an extent that he could not pass where a chariot could pass easily, he was crushed by the chariot, so that his bowels gushed out.”

    The existence of conflicting accounts of the death of Judas has caused problems for scholars who have seen them as threatening the reliability of Scripture. This problem was one of the points causing C. S. Lewis, for example, to reject the view “that every statement in Scripture must be historical truth”.
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    Oct 04, 2016 9:37 PM GMT
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    Dr E

    What happened to Jesus’ body?

    Mark records a tomb burial.

    Mark 15:46-47 records

    And Joseph bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud and laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock. And he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.

    The stone must not have been very large as Joseph rolled it, so it’s possible it was moved . Any thoughts about what happened to the body and why they would hide it just to create a myth?

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    Oct 04, 2016 10:07 PM GMT
    Dr. Bart Ehrman (Dr. E)

    I don’t think those are the only two options! I discuss this at length in my book How Jesus Became God. Short story: I think the whole narrative about the stone and Joseph of Arimathea and so on is legendary. My sense is that Jesus’ body was probably dumped into some kind of communal grave.
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    Oct 04, 2016 10:09 PM GMT
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    Any thoughts about what happened to the body and why they would hide it just to create a myth?

    Steefen:
    The tomb was empty after the crucifixion because Jesus survived the crucifixion.

    The crucifixion is part Julius Caesar's funeral when an effigy of Julius Caesar was raised on a cross and it was more than the mourners could bear after already having lamented over Marc Antony gave a eulogy expressing how ironic that sacrosanct Julius Caesar was stabbed to death by friends, with one womb being lethal (Jesus was stabbed on the cross to make the crucifixion lethal because one of his friends betrayed him.

    Those same senators would go unpunished--amnesty for the senators who liberated the Roman Republic from a dictator-emperor.

    Without Caesar's effigy with 23 stab wombs raised like a tropaion,
    350px-Gemma_Augustea_KHM_2010_%28cropped

    you probably would not see the crucified Jesus with one stab womb raised like a tropaion in a Catholic church service.

    The Crucifixion was also part excerpt from Josephus' biography where three people are crucified but Josephus begs Titus that they be taken down and revived. In the New Testament, Jesus survives the cross. In the historical account of Josephus' autobiography, one--of the three crucified tableau--survives. Hence, the tomb is empty of the dead body of Jesus.

    I see that Dr. E claims the probability that Jesus was dumped in a communal grave. That, for me, is a reference to Jesus of Galilee who died with his mariner followers in a battle against Rome around the time Josephus helped one of three men survive the cross.
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    Oct 05, 2016 8:20 PM GMT
    Steefen/Stephenoabc

    Pappias’ account supports Paul’s potential disciple count error. Pappias and Paul seem to be in agreement that there were the original 12 to whom Jesus could appear.

    Dr. Ehrman, did Pappias get counter-arguments are called a heretic for putting forth Judas lived in sadness until he was run over by a chariot?

    Dr. Bart Ehrman

    Papias doesn't say anything about Judas being run over by a chariot.

    Steefen/Stephenoabc
    I'm getting that from Papias Fragment 3, 1742-1744.
    It is found at Calvin College, Christian Classics Ethereal Library: Bringing Christian classic books to life
    ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.vii.ii.iii.html

    Are you willing to allow the statement to stand now? If not, please tell us the problem.

    Now, I'm clicking the
    I. From the exposition of the oracles of the Lord.
    [The writings of Papias in common circulation are five in number, and these are called an Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord. Irenaeus makes mention of these as the only works written by him...

    HTTP ADDRESS GOES HERE