VP Debate Debrief: Pence Took Care of Himself and Abandoned Trump

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    Oct 05, 2016 1:47 PM GMT
    The VP debate was interesting only to the extent that Pence, unlike his dom Trump, appeared calmer. In doing so, I must acknowledge that he did well for himself---he took care of himself at the expense of his running mate. While the optics were reasonably good to him, he failed---unintentionally or by design---to defend Trump. He had 6 opportunities to do so, and he failed. He did, however, show that he should have been the presidential nominee, not Trump. Now that this has become more apparent, Trump now has even more pressure to do well in the second presidential debate. He must exceed the standards set by his sub. Whereas before the VP debate Trump's goal might have been to do better than his first performance, his goal now is two-fold: (a) to do better than his past performance, and (b) to exceed Pence's performance. That's a very heavy burden for someone who's unable to discipline himself because of his huge ego.

    In contrast, Kaine was able to demonstrate substantive knowledge of domestic and foreign affairs. He was successful in reminding the audience of Trump's many destructive pronouncements which, as I said above, Pence was unable to defend. While he appeared to be a bit over-eager, he did what he was supposed to do. It reminded me of essay-type final exams where you prepare religiously for them and you simply have too many things to write but very little time to express them.

    Regardless of the result, however, we all know that it's not going to matter. What will matter for certain, however, is what happens in the next presidential debate---and virtually everyone acknowledges that Trump is under very heavy pressure to do well if he is to change the current narrative of failure.
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    Oct 05, 2016 2:02 PM GMT
    7273845_1471463082.jpg


    Clearly chosen by Hillary because he's no threat to her.

    Seriously, can anybody imagine this foolish little man.....with his fast talking, high pitched squeaky voice....who refers to himself as a politically correct "right hand person"....ever negotiating anything with Putin or China?
  • Geoffreysays

    Posts: 226

    Oct 05, 2016 2:21 PM GMT
    Pence is like one of those Southern preachers who reminds you of the Devil.
    He's smooth and fake to the core.
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    Oct 05, 2016 3:15 PM GMT
    Mr. Inferiority Complex - you have it wrong again, but not surprising. You are following your party line about Pence not defending Trump. The real story is he refused to follow all Kaine's party line scripted insults and refused to let Kaine set the tone of the debate. The Kaine strategy of interrupting was designed to cover up the lack of anything of substance supporting his candidate.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19119

    Oct 05, 2016 3:36 PM GMT
    I thought Pence did great and proved himself a class act and master debater. He did a great job of not taking the bait (like, unfortunately, Trump did with Hillary) and basically ignored all the tired and overly rehearsed attack talking points Tim Kaine spewed out, and stuck to the issues. I would have no problem trusting Mike Pence as POTUS if something were ever to happen to a President Trump. On the other hand, the thought of something happening to a President Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine being POTUS makes my skin crawl. I thought he looked extraordinarily weak last night and not at all likable or presidential. The Trump campaign should seize on this weak link (being Tim Kaine) and pound the "heartbeat away from the presidency" drum
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    Oct 05, 2016 3:38 PM GMT
    Geoffreysays saidPence is ... smooth and fake to the core.

    +1
    you can bet we will be seeing him again in 2020
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    Oct 05, 2016 3:42 PM GMT
    If you've noticed when the talking heads aka "surrogates" gather in "situation rooms", whenever a reporter or when a supporter of the Democratic ticket speaks critically of the GOP leader--and you can watch for this if you haven't already noticed as they do it nearly every time--the Trump people all shake their heads "no" so that when the camera shot is on both them & the speaker being critical of their precious, the talking Trump head is bobbin' "no", like it would in the back of a Trump Car that just swerved alt-right. It never just sits there on the stuffed shoulder to listen; it actively "debates", being silently interruptive while its opponent is laying out whatever argument at the time.

    Pence put a twist on the bobbing head. What he did, was instead of just shake his head "no" as I'd imagine he was instructed, he also grimaced. Did I say grimaced? I meant to say smiled for the camera. Now I realize I could be accused of Trump-like body reading an entire narrative into body language excepting that we do have some background of the person. We know the conflict: one's a conservative but his master (as rightfully, previously identified) is a Trump.

    And so the narrative to that goes not just that he refused to defend his master, but to translate the body language of his grimaced bobbing we read: "I can't believe I'm bottoming on the ticket to a schmuck."

    And then the bullshit bought into by "media"is that Kaine was "baiting" him did they say? They narrated the body language as Pence didn't take the "bait". Well, that's very SNL, but actually bait is evidence, is it not. And Kaine brought a lot of good bait to the table, so much so that it wasn't even bait; it was chum, all the bloodied fish bits prior to debate cut up by Trump himself.

    Kaine did a good job, obviously a real smart guy--I likes smarts--though at first he did confuse his bulldog with his Chihuahua, unsure if he was supposed to bite down and hold on or yap and pee on the carpet. But then he found the Trump of Pence's lame leg and didn't let go. I'm starting to like him. Pence I didn't like at all. He's creepy as Trump.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 4433

    Oct 05, 2016 4:11 PM GMT
    Ya, Pense was creepy, especially if you know his politics which TK probably should have mentioned. I thought TK's strategy of interrupting was interesting, a bit annoying at first, but he got the desired results of getting Pence to lie over and over about things that are on record that Trump said. The campaign has already started putting out videos with split screens of Pence denying Trump said things with Trump saying exactly that. To the word. JockAZ you call this campaign talking points. I call those clear evidence that Trump is disgusting. How can you defend him or Pence for that matter? Pence would gas all of us if he could. Or was it Trump who said that?
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    Oct 05, 2016 4:38 PM GMT
    To be fair, I'd say that BOTH VP candidates did well---unlike the first presidential debate where Clinton was CLEARLY the winner. Here, both candidates have minuses and pluses, so I'd give it an even score. HOWEVER, debate experts (and by that I mean people who actually compete in debates or train debaters) gave Kaine a higher mark. See below (see http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/05/opinions/debate-coach-pence-kaine-graham-opinion/index.html).

    **********

    Todd Graham is the director of debate at Southern Illinois University. His teams have won five national championships and advanced to the "final-four" of a national championship tournament nine consecutive years. He's been recognized three times as the national debate coach of the year. The opinions expressed in this commentary are his.

    (CNN)Last night, Tim Kaine and Mike Pence took up their most public roles yet as surrogates for their leaders in the vice presidential debate. Knowing this, they each had three roles: First, defend the top of your ticket. Second, attack the top of the other ticket. Finally, prove you are capable of being president. Once I got past the interruptions, here's what I heard.

    Defend the top of your ticket
    Tim Kaine: B+
    I thought the email attacks hit home, especially when Pence hammered away at the fact that it was dangerous for American security. Kaine's answer was only that it was not "criminal." OK, but that's not really the point. He defended everything else pretty well, from the Clinton Foundation to the Iran deal. He was ready with the fact that Clinton apologized for the "basket of deplorables" line. Indeed, Kaine used the old backward-step-pivot-forward debating technique by turning this into an indictment of Trump's lack of apologies for anything.

    Mike Pence: D-
    Pence was clearly uncomfortable. This reminds me of so many debates my teams have had. In every debate, we are a team of two members. When one of my debaters is young or inexperienced, they make a lot of mistakes that the older member tries to overcome in the final speech. That's precisely what happened here. Trump, in his stump speeches and the first presidential debate, was like my younger, inexperienced debaters, just saying things without thinking about the ramifications. Pence was like my seasoned veterans, trying to gloss over, re-explain, and even change the direction of the answers given by their partner.

    Unfortunately, it usually leads to double-turns. (A double-turn is when a team directly contradicts something they've said earlier.)
    Since Pence didn't want to contradict Trump, his only other option was silence. And it was painful to watch him getting hammered again and again by Kaine. Kaine even asked, "How can you defend that?" multiple times on these subjects:
    -- The Trump insult about John McCain and prisoners of war
    -- The Trump insult about the Indiana judge not being qualified because of his heritage
    -- The Trump birther nonsense
    -- The Trump claim that more countries getting nukes is a good thing
    -- The Trump argument questioning NATO and alliances
    -- Trump's (and Pence's) comments about how Vladimir Putin is a strong leader
    -- Trump's taxes
    -- Trump's line that Mexico is sending criminals, drug dealers and rapists across the border
    In debate terms, Pence got "spread out of the debate." There were too many attacks and he had too few answers for them. Plus, his heart wasn't there. Pence defended his own positions just fine; defending Trump was another thing.
    Multiple times, I thought he just gave up. He seemed frustrated, saying "did you work on that for a long time?" and "don't put words in my mouth." Unfortunately, it was Trump who put the words there, and Trump's own words were Pence's undoing.

    Attack the top of the other ticket
    Tim Kaine: A+
    Mike Pence: B+
    Kaine found the sweetest fruit to be the lowest hanging.
    There was decent back-and-forth on Trump's Muslim ban. And Kaine said Trump might privatize social security, which Pence denied, but was easily fact checked as accurate. Finally, immigration and deportation was debated. These were the attacks Pence at least tried to defend. The rest he tried to brush off and ignore, which left Kaine free to attack Trump at will. As for Pence, he had his own good moments with criticisms of Clinton. He hammered the emails, the server, and our security several times. He was also pretty effective with his "Clinton reset Russia" argument (but honestly, I wish he'd spent 30 seconds explaining the term "reset Russia" and what, exactly, that meant). Pence was also prepped to debate the lack of action by Obama and Clinton led to the creation of ISIS. Finally, he got to use the "basket of deplorables" line against Clinton and how she'd insulted too many people. All these were reasonable criticisms of Clinton that scored to some extent.

    But in an emergency...
    Tim Kaine: A-
    Mike Pence: A-
    Both candidates demonstrated the experience necessary to take over the role of president if needed. They both had detailed answers on questions ranging from the economy to their religious beliefs and abortion. Based on this debate only, yes, I think they are both qualified to be president. Not perfect, but qualified.

    Overall grade
    Tim Kaine: B (I deducted a letter grade for excessive interrupting)
    Mike Pence: C (Defending Trump isn't his forte)





  • Geoffreysays

    Posts: 226

    Oct 05, 2016 4:51 PM GMT
    Pence stayed smooth because he was determined not to answer the moderator's questions regarding his running mate.
    For one evening he can make this work but he's got weeks to go.
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    Oct 05, 2016 4:54 PM GMT
    Destinharbor saidYa, Pense was creepy, especially if you know his politics which TK probably should have mentioned. I thought TK's strategy of interrupting was interesting, a bit annoying at first, but he got the desired results of getting Pence to lie over and over about things that are on record that Trump said. The campaign has already started putting out videos with split screens of Pence denying Trump said things with Trump saying exactly that. To the word. JockAZ you call this campaign talking points. I call those clear evidence that Trump is disgusting. How can you defend him or Pence for that matter? Pence would gas all of us if he could. Or was it Trump who said that?


    Kaine did at one point if I recall correctly reference Pence's politics by noting his voting record. I don't recall the particulars. Something Kaine said about Pence. Pence trying to defend himself by saying Kaine has no way of knowing what he just said or something like that and Kaine returning with, dude, we've got your record. And that's fine. Just a tangent. His job was to focus on Trump through Pence. Kaine did his job very well. Especially at the end on abortion, Kaine made the clear distinction defining a major difference between Democrats and Republicans, all from his religious point of view which I thought masterful.

    He said this: That though my beliefs may counter the beliefs of others, I do not subjugate the beliefs of others to my own within the political sphere as do Republicans. In that alone, he spoke very well to his own politics, to the difference between the candidates, at the vp and the p level, and to the superiority of the Democratic mindset which does not seek to rule the thoughts of others. That people are allowed to believe what they want to believe which is a basis of America.
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    Oct 05, 2016 9:24 PM GMT
    ^^^Indeed, the narrative has already changed in just a few hours. This morning Pence was being hailed by some pundits as the winner. On style, he clearly was. A few hours later, the narrative has begun to change quite drastically. Having had ample time to digest what the candidates said last night (particularly after the fact-checkers have had the time to do their due diligence), a lot of people are now saying that, substantively and politically, Kaine actually helped the Hillary campaign quite a bit. I watched a news anchor go through Pence's statements one by one, and I could see why the Hillary campaign has now released several ads capitalizing on the results of last night's debate. It is now very clear to me what the ultimate goal was: sacrifice style over substance in order to get more material for campaign ads. Well done, Mr. Kaine.
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    Oct 06, 2016 12:37 AM GMT

    I was disappointed that Kaine didn't clobber Pence with his anti gay religious free-dumb law that would have turned out much like NC has, had pence not "corrected" this law. The attention span is very short for many people. Do we not recall Memories Pizza? Right wingers raised almost half a million for them

    Indiana pizza shop that won't cater gay weddings to close
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/04/01/indiana-family-pizzeria-wont-cater-gay-weddings/70813430/

    The owners of Memories Pizza in Walkteron, Ind., became one of the first companies to say they could use the newly passed "religious freedom" law to refuse service to same-sex couples


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    Oct 06, 2016 12:51 AM GMT
    Much of the commentary I read is saying Pence was positioning himself for his own Presidential run in 2020. Forget Trump, that's a lost cause. He's just milking the national exposure he's getting for his own future.

    Whereas Kaine was the perfect Clinton lieutenant. As he should be. Because when you are the second on the ticket, you fight for the person who's the first, that people will actually be voting for. Pence failed to do that. Very curious.
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    Oct 06, 2016 3:22 AM GMT
    Art_Deco saidMuch of the commentary I read is saying Pence was positioning himself for his own Presidential run in 2020. Forget Trump, that's a lost cause. He's just milking the national exposure he's getting for his own future.

    Whereas Kaine was the perfect Clinton lieutenant. As he should be. Because when you are the second on the ticket, you fight for the person who's the first, that people will actually be voting for. Pence failed to do that. Very curious.


    Your "democrat talking points" speculation is wrong on every count.

    Pence knows this is do or die, now. Plus, everybody knows VP candidate's Oval Office ambitions are notoriously cursed.....Mondale, Gore, Lieberman, Paul Ryan, Lloyd Bentson. Can you name one losing VP candidate who went on to become president?

    Pence and Trump know they're part of a political revolution that is larger than both of them. El Rushbo interviewed Governor Pence this afternoon....well worth a listen...or read in case you're not a Rush 24/7 member.

    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2016/10/05/governor_pence_speaks_to_el_rushbo_donald_trump_s_vision_won_the_debate


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    Oct 06, 2016 3:39 AM GMT
    Pence was more polished, but Kaine was more brilliant. Lost the battle to keep the pressure on Pence to defend Trump's idiocy, which he refused to do and lied the entire debate. In turn, it gave Hillary a brilliant new attack ad.

    I'm baffled that anyone can defend Pence on a gay forum. The man is one of the most gay hating politicians in the country who wants gay rights revoked and stopped HIV funding to put towards conversion therapy. He's a vile human being.
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    Oct 06, 2016 2:13 PM GMT
    The GOP could maybe squeeze hard like child birth and put out a moderate candidate for 2020. Not the 2016 human trash they just put on display:

    elevator8n-1-web.jpg
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    Oct 06, 2016 3:44 PM GMT
    DOMINUS said^^^Indeed, the narrative has already changed in just a few hours. This morning Pence was being hailed by some pundits as the winner. On style, he clearly was. A few hours later, the narrative has begun to change quite drastically. Having had ample time to digest what the candidates said last night (particularly after the fact-checkers have had the time to do their due diligence), a lot of people are now saying that, substantively and politically, Kaine actually helped the Hillary campaign quite a bit. I watched a news anchor go through Pence's statements one by one, and I could see why the Hillary campaign has now released several ads capitalizing on the results of last night's debate. It is now very clear to me what the ultimate goal was: sacrifice style over substance in order to get more material for campaign ads. Well done, Mr. Kaine.

    +
    Fiyero27 saidPence was more polished, but Kaine was more brilliant. Lost the battle to keep the pressure on Pence to defend Trump's idiocy, which he refused to do and lied the entire debate. In turn, it gave Hillary a brilliant new attack ad...

    =

    Came polished in style but took a shellacking on substance.
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Oct 07, 2016 3:31 PM GMT
    theantijock said
    Came polished in style but took a shellacking on substance.



    The only one who took a "shellacking" in the VP debate was the seriously annoying and creepy Tim Kaine. He came off horribly in the debate, much like Trump did the last 1/2 of the 1st Presidential debate. Trump didn't help himself in the first debate, and Kaine certainly didn't do Clinton any favors in the VP debate. Sunday's 2nd debate should be interesting.
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    Oct 07, 2016 5:14 PM GMT