UN human rights watchdog orders Saudi Arabia to stop stoning children People over 15-years-old in the Kingdom are tried as adults and can be executed

  • metta

    Posts: 39107

    Oct 10, 2016 6:50 AM GMT
    UN human rights watchdog orders Saudi Arabia to stop stoning children
    People over 15-years-old in the Kingdom are tried as adults and can be executed

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-stoning-un-children-united-nations-a7349861.html
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Oct 11, 2016 2:47 PM GMT
    At issue is Islamic custom which considers males to be adults at age 15.
    I'm not sure about Saudi law, but in various places they can marry and enlist* at that age.

    * Remember that the next time you hear about "child" casualties in war zones.
    For example, during the intifada, the majority of "child casualties" were males aged 15-17, a group representing just 8% of children.
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    Oct 13, 2016 4:10 PM GMT
    The majority of Israeli child casualties were also aged 15-17 (56%, according to B'Tselem).

    But recall this is the apologist who justified Saudi executions as a function of its "criminal justice" system (even if the "crime" in question is blasphemy, drinking alcohol, or having gay sex), and who claimed the kingdom "respects" its dead, while in reality crucifying its victims' bodies in public view, much like IS drapes severed heads on signs along the freeway, to terrify the population.

    Useful evidence (as if more was needed) that Western opposition to groups like IS has nothing to do with principles of human rights, but with geopolitical considerations involving power interests and "stability" (that is, US hegemony).
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Oct 14, 2016 5:42 AM GMT
    As usual, the AyaTrolLiar has nothing intelligent to say, but doesn't let that stop him from blabbing off topic.

    First, look at the naked stupidity in trying to reverse this:

    AyaTrolLiar> The majority of Israeli child casualties were also aged 15-17

    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.
    There are more teenagers at a mall than infants. There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom.

    What next, the stunning revelation that no minors were murdered at the Pulse nightclub?

    My point above, which petty pouncer still can't wrap his puny brain around, is that one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds.


    Anyone who has read these pages even briefly recognizes that AyaTrolLiar JTheM is a severely troubled individual (if not outright deranged). Even when he pretends to "ignore" me it's clear that he is completely infatuated with me. Never mind all his imaginary friends emailing him on RJ with such frequency that he has to login at 10 minute intervals 24/7. It's evident again in his second paragraph. Still ignoring the thread (trolls can never post on-topic), he seeks to condemn not Saudi Arabia but me for allegedly being its apologist. It's "true" in the same sense that all his twisted "facts" are.

    My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports.
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    Oct 14, 2016 10:50 AM GMT
    Bloody UN.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 15, 2016 3:29 AM GMT
    He does hate me picking on him so.

    Propaganda Pervert> When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?
    Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Propaganda Pervert> There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    A lot depends on where the bomb is placed.
    Nelson Mandela's ANC killed a 2-year-old and an 8-year-old in its most infamous shopping mall attack, along with three other civilians. The street where the mall is located has since been renamed in honor of the man who carried out the bombing.

    Propaganda Pervert> There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    Propaganda Pervert> one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds

    On the contrary, the bombing is quite deliberate, with an estimated 99% of IDF bombs hitting their targets. Hardly "random".

    (Perhaps reckoning with the futility of his effort, RJ's permanent idiot in residence lets loose with his standard deluge of pro forma insults and hysterical allegations, leaving only the accusation that I have no interest in the thread topic to attend to, presumably some attempt at self-deprecation, considering all but one sentence in my post was devoted to the Saudi human rights abuses he defends.)

    Propaganda Pervert> My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports

    You're welcome to quote back to me any statements "justifying" or "supporting" the killing of collaborators in Gaza. If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders whether they take place in Gaza or (to offer a particularly gruesome example) the Warsaw Ghetto - a statement well beyond people like you who are on the record SUPPORTING extra-judicial executions.

    Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    Rare and repugnant apologetics for sure, but necessary in his effort to portray Wahhabi friends of his politics in the region as moderate by comparison to Hamas (one of countless armed groups that execute collaborators in the course of warfare, and whose ideology coincides with the Muslim Brotherhood's, not that of Saudi Arabia and Islamic State).
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    Oct 15, 2016 3:35 AM GMT
    Yes the bloody UN God_Said, that miscreant enabler of world public opinion, refusing to follow orders like good democrats.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Oct 15, 2016 5:01 AM GMT
    Just when you thought he couldn't sink lower, AyaTrolLiar Founcer/JTheM reminds us why no one on RJ (except for a couple characters he himself considers mentally challenged misfits) respects him or his bile:

    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    AyaTrolLiar> What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.
    (An especially dense move given that my non-exhaustive list had other examples, too.)


    There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    AyaTrolLiar> A lot depends on where the bomb is placed.

    Once again showing us that statistics are beyond him. As is logic: at best he's arguing that terrorists target 15-17 year old children (what a relief, eh? Almost makes them human) rather than toddlers and infants. Yet we know that his Hamas and other terrorist heroes have no compunction about brutally murdering infants and toddlers, too.


    There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    AyaTrolLiar> So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    This is the closest he gets to the topic, but only to twist it into a pretzel.
    Israeli high school children are not "of military age" and are not perceived as such, either.
    Schools are soft targets.


    AyaTrolLIar> Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Really? This "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as Sharkspeare famously noted) is asking why terrorists don't go after even softER targets?

    Cast Lead was going on 8 years ago and this is another invented BS "statistic".

    How odd that in bombing so many "nurseries", few toddlers and many terrorists were killed.

    Hamas admits it lied about Casualties... Yet some RJers still attempt to spam & perpetuate those propaganda lies-for-the-cause?!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1217613


    one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds

    AyaTrolLiar> the bombing is quite deliberate, with an estimated 99% of IDF bombs hitting their targets. Hardly "random".

    Those targets are not civilians but terrorists who "cowardly blend" amongst and behind civilians, e.g. firing rockets from school yards and hospital grounds (but this useless idiot thinks that is not "human shielding" because - contrary to international law - he thinks that's only when civilians are located to military targets but not when military targets are located behind civilians).


    AyaTrolLiar> You're welcome to quote back to me any statements "justifying" or "supporting" the killing of collaborators in Gaza. If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders

    One need only look 2 paragraphs later:

    AyaTrolLiar> Hamas (one of countless armed groups that execute collaborators in the course of warfare

    That's his idea of "condemning". icon_lol.gificon_rolleyes.gif

    No wonder he can't reference himself doing so and seeks to put the burden on me.

    Hamas Commander, Accused of Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4188753

    I guess he doesn't "recall", but he defended this murder on the trumped charge that the victim also "stole".
    Ah, ok, no need for a trial then, eh?
    The penalty for theft is summary execution?
    Because "warfare"?

    Note further that Hamas summary executions are not limited to periods of "warfare".

    Hamas even executed 20 people for protesting that they turned their neighborhood into a war zone (using them as human shields) and bringing destruction upon them. How unpatriotic, and a lesson to the other 1+ million people not to challenge the ruling junta who illegally seized power nearly 10 years ago and hasn't held elections since!


    AyaTrolLiar> Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    His lack of mental abilities starts with his reading discomprehension, combined with his lack of "recall". His problem is that he is so used to twisting everything (e.g. adding "only" to what I said at the top of this post) that he no longer has any sense of reality. Otherwise known as delusional, and stuck in that box without a paddle (or neurons) to escape it.
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    Oct 15, 2016 7:23 AM GMT
    Good DemocRats, is that an oxymoron?
    Australia want out of that Bloody UN. The people never voted them in.
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    Oct 15, 2016 3:49 PM GMT
    Propaganda Pervert> When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    Propaganda Pervert> He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.

    Okay, to eliminate the wiggle room - "terrorists" MOSTLY target non-infant and 15-17-year-old children (an age group you sought to deny were children because "military age" in Gaza is one year younger than in the UK)?


    Propaganda Pervert> There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    A lot depends on where the bomb is placed.

    Propaganda Pervert> at best he's arguing that terrorists target 15-17 year old children (what a relief, eh? Almost makes them human) rather than toddlers and infants. Yet we know that his Hamas and other terrorist heroes have no compunction about brutally murdering infants and toddlers, too

    In reality, children (including 15-17-year-olds) represent the smallest fraction of Israeli civilians killed by occupied Palestinians. For example, 8% in the first six months of the Intifada. Child deaths on the Palestinian side, both absolutely and proportionately, are generally anywhere between two to four times as high.

    Nelson Mandela's ANC killed a 2-year-old and an 8-year-old in its most infamous shopping mall attack, along with three other civilians. The street where the mall is located has since been renamed in honor of the man who carried out the bombing.

    Propaganda Pervert> [nothing]


    Propagands Pervert> There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    Propaganda Pervert> Israeli high school children are not "of military age" and are not perceived as such, either. Schools are soft targets

    You mean like mosques and nurseries in Gaza? (See below)


    Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Propaganda Pervert> Really? This "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as Sharkspeare famously noted) is asking why terrorists don't go after even softER targets?

    I'm asking why they don't stoop to the level of Israel and target synagogues and kindergartens by the dozen.

    Propaganda Pervert > Cast Lead was going on 8 years ago and this is another invented BS "statistic".

    The statistics are from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, and pertain to "Operation Protective Edge" two years ago (as if such crimes would be excusable if committed 8 years ago?)

    Propaganda Pervert> How odd that in bombing so many "nurseries", few toddlers and many terrorists were killed

    Yeah, 180 is such a low number of 0-5 year olds killed in a totally unnecessary war.
    As is the 238 other children under "military age" who were murdered.

    Propaganda Pervert> Hamas admits it lied about Casualties...

    A discredited allegation about one conflict out of eight.
    In all the Israeli "interventions" in Gaza, human rights groups (who have the names and ages of all the victims tallied in their databases), estimated the death toll at consistently 65-80% civilian.

    Propaganda Pervert> one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds

    On the contrary, the bombing is quite deliberate, with an estimated 99% of IDF bombs hitting their targets. Hardly "random".

    Propaganda Pervert> Those targets are not civilians but terrorists who "cowardly blend" amongst and behind civilians, e.g. firing rockets from school yards and hospital grounds

    You mean like Israel fires into Gaza from kibbutzim and the middle of populated cities?
    Or in the case of Lebanon, from Arab villages in the Galilee?

    Or are you referring only to practices whereby Israeli soldiers force Gazan civilians to stay in buildings they've commandeered, or carry out military objectives (like activating booby traps) for them?

    Propaganda Pervert> but this useless idiot thinks that is not "human shielding" because - contrary to international law - he thinks that's only when civilians are located to military targets but not when military targets are located behind civilians).

    You mean like when Human Rights Watch observes that "fixed military facilities, such as IDF bases, are located next to or in the midst of civilian settlements" in Israel?

    Are you denying that Israel fires rockets and artillery into Gaza (and Lebanon) from densely populated areas?

    Why does Amnesty International repeatedly accuse Israel of human shielding, yet not Hamas?


    Propaganda Pervert> ...unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports

    You're welcome to quote back to me any statements "justifying" or "supporting" the killing of collaborators in Gaza. If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders

    Propaganda Pervert> [unsurprisingly, can't quote me "justifying" or "supporting" executions]

    Propaganda Pervert> No wonder he can't reference himself doing so and seeks to put the burden on me

    You placed the burden on yourself to prove I "justified" and "supported" these killings.
    As it happens, the best you can do is quote me describing such acts as common practice among resistance groups - not a matter of opinion but a FACT.

    Propaganda Pervert> I guess he doesn't "recall", but he defended this murder on the trumped charge that the victim also "stole".
    Ah, ok, no need for a trial then, eh?
    The penalty for theft is summary execution?

    Another lie. I agreed that no action was justified without a trial.
    My point about the alleged theft debunked your original lie that this was an execution for "gay sex".

    If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders whether they take place in Gaza or (to offer a particularly gruesome example) the Warsaw Ghetto - a statement well beyond people like you who are on the record SUPPORTING extra-judicial executions.

    Propaganda Pervert> [oops]


    Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    Rare and repugnant apologetics for sure, but necessary in his effort to portray Wahhabi friends of his politics in the region as moderate by comparison to Hamas (one of countless armed groups that execute collaborators in the course of warfare, and whose ideology coincides with the Muslim Brotherhood's, not that of Saudi Arabia and Islamic State).

    Propaganda Pervert> [reckons he's better off leaving his repugnant lies alone]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Oct 15, 2016 10:02 PM GMT
    The AyaTrolLiar insanity continues:

    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    AyaTrolLiar> What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.
    (An especially dense move given that my non-exhaustive list had other examples, too.)

    AyaTrolLiar> "terrorists" MOSTLY target non-infant and 15-17-year-old children

    There he goes again, coherent thought is simply beyond him.
    No wonder he quotes "terrorists", because, you know, people who intentionally blow up children are "freedom fighters", eh?

    AyaTrolLiar> an age group you sought to deny were children because "military age" in Gaza is one year younger than in the UK

    Chalk up another epic mental failure. Nowhere did I claim that 15-17 year old children aren't children.
    I pointed out that Saudi law (yup, the troll has totally lost track of the thread's topic once he saw the word Israel) does and that this is common in the mideast, including 15 being military age.

    Seeking to justify this because the UK shamefully allows recruits as young as 16 (one of only 20 countries to do so, in violation of international standards) is another example of petty pouncer's perverse style of "argument". He should be condemning UK, not use itto try and justify Hamas while claiming - pretending - to condemn Hamas for this.

    As I'm sure he knows, again highlighting his useless idiot dishonesty, the UK doesn't allow 16 and 17 year old recruits to participate in combat. So again his pathetic apologism fails miserably.


    There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    AyaTrolLiar> A lot depends on where the bomb is placed.

    Once again showing us that statistics are beyond him. As is logic: at best he's arguing that terrorists target 15-17 year old children (what a relief, eh? Almost makes them human) rather than toddlers and infants. Yet we know that his Hamas and other terrorist heroes have no compunction about brutally murdering infants and toddlers, too.

    AyaTrolLiar> children (including 15-17-year-olds) represent the smallest fraction of Israeli civilians killed

    Now he's trying to defend his prior lie with new irrelevancies, again at the expense of the larger point.


    There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    AyaTrolLiar> So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    This is the closest he gets to the topic, but only to twist it into a pretzel.
    Israeli high school children are not "of military age" and are not perceived as such, either.
    Schools are soft targets.

    AyaTrolLiar> You mean like mosques and nurseries in Gaza?

    When mosques and schools are used to store rockets, or are tunnel terminals, they are not "soft targets" but legitimate military targets.


    AyaTrolLIar> Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Really? This "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as Sharkspeare famously noted) is asking why terrorists don't go after even softER targets?

    Cast Lead was going on 8 years ago and this is another invented BS "statistic".

    AyaTrolLiar> "Operation Protective Edge" two years ago

    Once an idiot, always an idiot. He can't help it.

    How odd that in bombing so many "nurseries", few toddlers and many terrorists were killed.

    AyaTrolLiar> blah blah blah

    || According to data provided by the Palestinian International Middle East Media Center, 79.7% of the Palestinians killed in Gaza were male, with the majority between 16 and 35 (fighting-age)

    This segment of the population represents a mere 9% of the population, but they were hanging out at "nurseries" and "mosques" during a war?


    Hamas admits it lied about Casualties... Yet some RJers still attempt to spam & perpetuate those propaganda lies-for-the-cause?!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1217613

    AyaTrolLiar> A discredited allegation

    ROTFL. Nothing at all "discredited" about it, and it correlates well to other data.

    AyaTrolLiar> one conflict out of eight

    One of the two largest in recent years.

    It is well known that Hamas lies, just as it is well known that in his usual reversal of the scientific method, AyaTrolLiar Founcer/JTheM laps up those lies and regurgitates them (because they conform to his preconceived notions which he masquerades as "conclusions" or worse, a "model").


    one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds

    AyaTrolLiar> the bombing is quite deliberate, with an estimated 99% of IDF bombs hitting their targets. Hardly "random".

    Those targets are not civilians but terrorists who "cowardly blend" amongst and behind civilians, e.g. firing rockets from school yards and hospital grounds (but this useless idiot thinks that is not "human shielding" because - contrary to international law - he thinks that's only when civilians are located to military targets but not when military targets are located behind civilians).

    AyaTrolLiar> like Israel fires into Gaza from kibbutzim and the middle of populated cities?

    Israel did no such thing. The rockets fired from urban areas were anti-missile missiles, to shoot down rockets intentionally fired at Israeli population centers in violation of international law.


    AyaTrolLiar> You're welcome to quote back to me any statements "justifying" or "supporting" the killing of collaborators in Gaza. If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders

    One need only look 2 paragraphs later:

    AyaTrolLiar> Hamas (one of countless armed groups that execute collaborators in the course of warfare

    That's his idea of "condemning". icon_lol.gificon_rolleyes.gif

    No wonder he can't reference himself doing so and seeks to put the burden on me.

    AyaTrolLiar> [still can't provide an example of condemnation]


    Hamas Commander, Accused of Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4188753

    I guess he doesn't "recall", but he defended this murder on the trumped charge that the victim also "stole".
    Ah, ok, no need for a trial then, eh?
    The penalty for theft is summary execution?
    Because "warfare"?

    AyaTrolLiar> I agreed that no action was justified without a trial.

    You didn't and you served as a Hamas ass-wiper apologist, failing to condemn them for yet another murder.
    You attempted to divert with Saudi Arabia, then with Israel, then asked why so much scrutiny on Hamas.

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Oct 15, 2016 10:03 PM GMT
    Note further that Hamas summary executions are not limited to periods of "warfare".

    AyaTrolLiar> [wups, another apologism fail]


    Hamas even executed 20 people for protesting that they turned their neighborhood into a war zone (using them as human shields) and bringing destruction upon them. How unpatriotic, and a lesson to the other 1+ million people not to challenge the ruling junta who illegally seized power nearly 10 years ago and hasn't held elections since!

    AyaTrolLiar> [Couldn't care less about Gazans, he's just in it because he hates Jews/Israel, thus he loves Hamas the enemy of his enemy.]


    My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports.

    AyaTrolLiar> Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    His lack of mental abilities starts with his reading discomprehension, combined with his lack of "recall". His problem is that he is so used to twisting everything (e.g. adding "only" to what I said at the top of this post) that he no longer has any sense of reality. Otherwise known as delusional, and stuck in that box without a paddle (or neurons) to escape it.
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    Oct 15, 2016 10:52 PM GMT
    Bloody UN should be abolished.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:07 AM GMT
    God_Said's apparently out for the count, but the other far-right demagogue is still frantically treading water:

    Propaganda Pervert> When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    Propaganda Pervert> He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.

    Okay, to eliminate the wiggle room - "terrorists" MOSTLY target non-infant and 15-17-year-old children (an age group you sought to deny were children because "military age" in Gaza is one year younger than in the UK).

    PP> [oops...]
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:08 AM GMT
    PP> Nowhere did I claim that 15-17 year old children aren't children

    You said to "remember" that the "Islamic custom" is to consider boys adults at age 15, scare quoting both the terms "child" and "child casualties" (much like Saudi Arabia presumably does) to create the impression that Israel is killing hostile adults.

    PP> the troll has totally lost track of the thread's topic once he saw Israel

    LOL. You were the one who brought Israel into it, not me, and you're calling for a timeout already?

    PP> UK shamefully allows recruits as young as 16 ... the UK doesn't allow 16 and 17 year old recruits to participate in combat.

    Not sure which is funnier - the "shame" he invokes at allowing people old enough to leave school, have sex, drive a car and get married the opportunity to enlist in the military, or the anticlimax he then introduces (intended to be at my expense) that these are non-combat related duties...

    PP> [flees the larger point, seeks to distract with what the definition of a "terrorist" is]

    Is the following a useful definition?

    Nelson Mandela's ANC killed a 2-year-old and an 8-year-old in its most infamous shopping mall attack, along with three other civilians. The street where the mall is located has since been renamed in honor of the man who carried out the bombing.

    Propaganda Pervert> [nothing]

    *Watch, for the third time, the idiot ignore this (and every other historical analogue relevant to the case - Tamil Tigers, IRA, etc). Maybe attacks on South African shopping malls, Wimpy bars and video arcades are likewise attempts to "blow up children"? icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:10 AM GMT
    Propaganda Pervert> There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    So the ANC are terrorists?

    In reality, children (including 15-17-year-olds) represent the smallest fraction of Israeli civilians killed by occupied Palestinians. For example, 8% in the first six months of the Intifada. Child deaths on the Palestinian side, both absolutely and proportionately, are generally anywhere between two to four times as high.

    PP> [claims this is in defense of a "lie" and contradicts a "larger point". I doubt even he has any idea what he's talking about at this stage...]

    Propaganda Pervert> at best he's arguing that terrorists target 15-17 year old children (what a relief, eh? Almost makes them human) rather than toddlers and infants. Yet we know that his Hamas and other terrorist heroes have no compunction about brutally murdering infants and toddlers, too

    See above.

    Propagands Pervert> There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    Propaganda Pervert> Israeli high school children are not "of military age" and are not perceived as such, either. Schools are soft targets

    You mean like mosques and nurseries in Gaza?

    PP> When mosques and schools are used to store rockets, or are tunnel terminals, they are not "soft targets" but legitimate military targets

    Subject to the principle of proportionality, as embodied in the 1977 Additional Protocols to the Fourth Geneva Convention (unsigned and ignored by states like the US and Israel).

    But how many of mosques [out of 278], and how many schools [out of 258] struck by Israeli shells were used to "store rockets" or as "tunnel terminals"?

    Answer: THREE schools (closed for the summer recess and not being used for refugee evacuation, as a UN investigation confirmed), and I think ONE unverified IDF video appearing to show a tunnel terminating in a mosque, have so far been produced as evidence (the tunnels were not used to attack civilians, but to capture and ambush soldiers of an invading army during war).

    A further problem with the Israeli case for bombing civilian mosques in Gaza is that it is totally incoherent. The UN Fact-Finding Mission into Cast Lead concluded that Hamas militants would be foolhardy in the extreme, with "abundant hideaways in the labyrinthine alleyways of Gaza", to "store anything in an open building like a mosque, which had been pre-targeted and pre-registered by Israeli intelligence."

    Israel's claim that Hamas placed weapons in mosques because "it assumed the IDF would not attack them" on the basis of prior experience doesn't convince either, given that Israel shelled 55 mosques in Gaza (leaving some totally destroyed) in the eight years before the conflict.

    The systematic targeting of Gaza's minarets is even more absurd, given that, being too narrow for a sniper to ascend, they had no military value. Indeed, the final report of a fact-finding committee led by the father of South African human rights law John Dugard found that "mosques, and more particularly the minarets, had been deliberately targeted on the grounds that they symbolize Islam." A conclusion amply backed up by IDF soldier testimony.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:12 AM GMT
    Why don't Palestinian militants attack more nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Propaganda Pervert> Really? This "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as Sharkspeare famously noted) is asking why terrorists don't go after even softER targets?

    I'm asking why they don't stoop to the level of Israel and target synagogues and kindergartens by the dozen.

    PP> [lost]
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:12 AM GMT
    Propaganda Pervert > Cast Lead was going on 8 years ago and this is another invented BS "statistic".

    The statistics are from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, and pertain to "Operation Protective Edge" two years ago (as if such crimes would be excusable if committed 8 years ago?)

    PP> Doh!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:13 AM GMT
    Propaganda Pervert> How odd that in bombing so many "nurseries", few toddlers and many terrorists were killed

    Yeah, 180 is such a low number of 0-5 year olds killed in a totally unnecessary war.
    As is the 238 other children under "military age" who were murdered.


    PP> [gone]

    But he gives us this idiocy instead:

    PP> This segment [military-age males] of the population represents a mere 9% of the population, but they were hanging out at "nurseries" and "mosques" during a war?

    Right, because the young people were hanging out at a few hundred nurseries and mosques and not the 96,000 or so homes destroyed or damaged in the onslaught. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:13 AM GMT
    Propaganda Pervert> Hamas admits it lied about Casualties...

    A discredited allegation about one conflict out of eight.

    PP> Nothing at all "discredited" about it, and it correlates well to other data

    As I said before, one BS Hamas "statistic" gels with one BS Israeli statistic.

    PP> One of the two largest [conflicts] in recent years

    And human rights investigations estimate the death toll at 65-80% civilian for both.

    PP> It is well known that Hamas lies

    Like Israel then.
    Anyone remember the claim, made both officially before the Knesset and on the international news media, that Israel wasn't using White Phosphorus in Gaza?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:14 AM GMT
    Propaganda Pervert> one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds

    On the contrary, the bombing is quite deliberate, with an estimated 99% of IDF bombs hitting their targets. Hardly "random".

    Propaganda Pervert> Those targets are not civilians but terrorists who "cowardly blend" amongst and behind civilians, e.g. firing rockets from school yards and hospital grounds

    You mean like Israel fires into Gaza from kibbutzim and the middle of populated cities?

    PP> Israel did no such thing. The rockets fired from urban areas were anti-missile missiles, to shoot down rockets intentionally fired at Israeli population centers in violation of international law.

    BS. In the 2006 Lebanon War, Israel stationed soldiers within civilian settlements (Zarit, Kfar Giladi), and fired offensive artillery from Arab villages in the Galilee (which incidentally were not equipped with early warning systems or bomb shelters).

    Resident Renan Raz, on when IDF soldiers set up camp in his kibbutz near the Gaza border in the 2014 "war":

    || We are a sick military society. You can’t say Hamas is using their civilians as a human shield when it’s obvious that our army is using all of us as human shields. And those of us who live near the Gaza Strip are definitely the biggest human shields.”

    In Haifa, a target of Hezbollah rocket attacks, the IDF's naval base is located in a residential neighborhood, opposite a hospital. The University hosts an army base.

    In Tel Aviv, a target of Hamas rocket attacks, the army headquarters is in one of the city's most densely populated neighborhoods, where uniformed officers eat in the cafes and shop in the malls as they plan their assaults on occupied Gaza.

    Or maybe you're referring to the practices whereby Israeli soldiers force Gazan civilians to stay in buildings they've commandeered, or carry out military objectives (like activating booby traps) for them?

    Israeli soldiers were guilty of this in Operation Defensive Shield in the West Bank in 2002, Operation Cast Lead in 2008-09, and Operation Protective Edge in 2014.

    In fact, criminal soldiers engaged in human shielding no fewer than 1,200 times between 2009 and 2014.

    Propaganda Pervert> but this useless idiot thinks that is not "human shielding" because - contrary to international law - he thinks that's only when civilians are located to military targets but not when military targets are located behind civilians).

    You mean like when Human Rights Watch observes that "fixed military facilities, such as IDF bases, are located next to or in the midst of civilian settlements" in Israel?

    PP> [ignored]

    Are you denying that Israel fires rockets and artillery into Gaza (and Lebanon) from densely populated areas?

    PP> [silence]

    Why does Amnesty International repeatedly accuse Israel of human shielding, yet not Hamas?

    PP> [won't say]

    Amnesty International specifically pointed out during Protective Edge that it found no evidence of Hamas using civilians to shield weapons caches, military objectives OR COMBATANT PERSONNEL during the onslaught.
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    Oct 16, 2016 5:15 AM GMT
    Propaganda Pervert> ...unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports

    You're welcome to quote back to me any statements "justifying" or "supporting" the killing of collaborators in Gaza. If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders

    Propaganda Pervert> [unsurprisingly, can't quote me "justifying" or "supporting" executions]

    Propaganda Pervert> No wonder he can't reference himself doing so and seeks to put the burden on me

    You placed the burden on yourself to prove I "justified" and "supported" these killings.
    As it happens, the best you can do is quote me describing such acts as common practice among resistance groups - not a matter of opinion but FACT.


    PP> [still can't substantiate his allegation, but thinks the "burden" is on me to disprove something asserted without evidence]

    Propaganda Pervert> I guess he doesn't "recall", but he defended this murder on the trumped charge that the victim also "stole".
    Ah, ok, no need for a trial then, eh?
    The penalty for theft is summary execution?

    Another lie. I agreed that no action was justified without a trial.
    My point about the alleged theft debunked your original lie that this was an execution for "gay sex".

    PP> [denial, denial, denial]

    If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders whether they take place in Gaza or (to offer a particularly gruesome example) the Warsaw Ghetto - a statement well beyond people like you who are on the record SUPPORTING extra-judicial executions in and of themselves.

    Propaganda Pervert> [ignored again out of necessity]


    Propaganda Pervert> My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports.

    Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    Rare and repugnant apologetics for sure, but necessary in his effort to portray Wahhabi friends of his politics in the region as moderate by comparison to Hamas (one of countless armed groups that execute collaborators in the course of warfare, and whose ideology coincides with the Muslim Brotherhood's, not that of Saudi Arabia and Islamic State).


    Propaganda Pervert> [thinks better of defending his pathological lies]
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    Oct 16, 2016 7:36 AM GMT
    JTheM saidWhat? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?
    Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?


    It is more than that "Operation Cast Lead, " more Palestinians die by the hands of cold blooded Israeli terrorists. IDF was once the terrorist group in the 30s-40s such as the Irgun, the Lehi, the Haganah and the Palmach. Then now they became so-called "IDF" after 1948.

    mwolverine's grandparents must be terrorists?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Oct 16, 2016 7:36 AM GMT
    My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports.

    AyaTrolLiar> Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    His lack of mental abilities starts with his reading discomprehension, combined with his lack of "recall". His problem is that he is so used to twisting everything (e.g. adding "only" to what I said at the top of this post) that he no longer has any sense of reality. Otherwise known as delusional, and stuck in that box without a paddle (or neurons) to escape it.

    Note how the troll can't quote what I said, just try to twist it out of context.
    I will:

    || While there is much to lament, at least it [Saudi Arabia] holds trials and treats bodies with respect.
    || Unlike ISIS and Hamas, with their vigilante executions, leaving bodies out to rot.

    Which confirms I have not "defended" Saudi Arabia (as he then claimed, not in the original thread but another one).
    To the contrary, while I said they were bad, I pointed out that Hamas, like Hizbullah and ISIS, is WORSE.

    As I noted, the AyaTrolLiar can't grasp (let alone bring) the actual facts, all he can "recall" is how he previously twisted reality.

    Not that this will prevent the pathological petty propaganda pouncer from lying further about it here.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 3384

    Oct 16, 2016 7:38 AM GMT
    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    AyaTrolLiar> What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.
    (An especially dense move given that my non-exhaustive list had other examples, too.)

    AyaTrolLiar> "terrorists" MOSTLY target non-infant and 15-17-year-old children

    There he goes again, coherent thought is simply beyond him.
    His terrorist heroes have targeted both, but as already noted older children are more prevalent in public spaces.

    No wonder he quotes "terrorists", because, you know, people who intentionally blow up children are "freedom fighters", eh?

    AyaTrolLiar> [seeks to distract with what the definition of a "terrorist" is]

    That's hardly a "distract[ion]". The point being that you think people who target and murder children are not terrorists only serves to show how mad with hate you are.

    AyaTrolLiar diversion> Nelson Mandela's ANC killed a 2-year-old and an 8-year-old in its most infamous shopping mall attack, along with three other civilians. The street where the mall is located has since been renamed in honor of the man who carried out the bombing.

    As usual, he's wrong on almost every point. The terrorist in question was tried, convicted and executed. He claimed he didn't intend to kill anyone, but the ANC itself condemned his "rogue" attack. The Sanlam Shopping Centre in Amanzimtoti is on Grants St - which is not the name of the terrorist.