UN human rights watchdog orders Saudi Arabia to stop stoning children People over 15-years-old in the Kingdom are tried as adults and can be executed

  • metta

    Posts: 43474

    Oct 10, 2016 6:50 AM GMT
    UN human rights watchdog orders Saudi Arabia to stop stoning children
    People over 15-years-old in the Kingdom are tried as adults and can be executed

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-stoning-un-children-united-nations-a7349861.html
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 11, 2016 2:47 PM GMT
    At issue is Islamic custom which considers males to be adults at age 15.
    I'm not sure about Saudi law, but in various places they can marry and enlist* at that age.

    * Remember that the next time you hear about "child" casualties in war zones.
    For example, during the intifada, the majority of "child casualties" were males aged 15-17, a group representing just 8% of children.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 14, 2016 5:42 AM GMT
    As usual, the AyaTrolLiar has nothing intelligent to say, but doesn't let that stop him from blabbing off topic.

    First, look at the naked stupidity in trying to reverse this:

    AyaTrolLiar> The majority of Israeli child casualties were also aged 15-17

    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.
    There are more teenagers at a mall than infants. There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom.

    What next, the stunning revelation that no minors were murdered at the Pulse nightclub?

    My point above, which petty pouncer still can't wrap his puny brain around, is that one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds.


    Anyone who has read these pages even briefly recognizes that AyaTrolLiar JTheM is a severely troubled individual (if not outright deranged). Even when he pretends to "ignore" me it's clear that he is completely infatuated with me. Never mind all his imaginary friends emailing him on RJ with such frequency that he has to login at 10 minute intervals 24/7. It's evident again in his second paragraph. Still ignoring the thread (trolls can never post on-topic), he seeks to condemn not Saudi Arabia but me for allegedly being its apologist. It's "true" in the same sense that all his twisted "facts" are.

    My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 15, 2016 5:01 AM GMT
    Just when you thought he couldn't sink lower, AyaTrolLiar Founcer/JTheM reminds us why no one on RJ (except for a couple characters he himself considers mentally challenged misfits) respects him or his bile:

    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    AyaTrolLiar> What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.
    (An especially dense move given that my non-exhaustive list had other examples, too.)


    There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    AyaTrolLiar> A lot depends on where the bomb is placed.

    Once again showing us that statistics are beyond him. As is logic: at best he's arguing that terrorists target 15-17 year old children (what a relief, eh? Almost makes them human) rather than toddlers and infants. Yet we know that his Hamas and other terrorist heroes have no compunction about brutally murdering infants and toddlers, too.


    There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    AyaTrolLiar> So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    This is the closest he gets to the topic, but only to twist it into a pretzel.
    Israeli high school children are not "of military age" and are not perceived as such, either.
    Schools are soft targets.


    AyaTrolLIar> Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Really? This "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as Sharkspeare famously noted) is asking why terrorists don't go after even softER targets?

    Cast Lead was going on 8 years ago and this is another invented BS "statistic".

    How odd that in bombing so many "nurseries", few toddlers and many terrorists were killed.

    Hamas admits it lied about Casualties... Yet some RJers still attempt to spam & perpetuate those propaganda lies-for-the-cause?!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1217613


    one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds

    AyaTrolLiar> the bombing is quite deliberate, with an estimated 99% of IDF bombs hitting their targets. Hardly "random".

    Those targets are not civilians but terrorists who "cowardly blend" amongst and behind civilians, e.g. firing rockets from school yards and hospital grounds (but this useless idiot thinks that is not "human shielding" because - contrary to international law - he thinks that's only when civilians are located to military targets but not when military targets are located behind civilians).


    AyaTrolLiar> You're welcome to quote back to me any statements "justifying" or "supporting" the killing of collaborators in Gaza. If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders

    One need only look 2 paragraphs later:

    AyaTrolLiar> Hamas (one of countless armed groups that execute collaborators in the course of warfare

    That's his idea of "condemning". icon_lol.gificon_rolleyes.gif

    No wonder he can't reference himself doing so and seeks to put the burden on me.

    Hamas Commander, Accused of Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4188753

    I guess he doesn't "recall", but he defended this murder on the trumped charge that the victim also "stole".
    Ah, ok, no need for a trial then, eh?
    The penalty for theft is summary execution?
    Because "warfare"?

    Note further that Hamas summary executions are not limited to periods of "warfare".

    Hamas even executed 20 people for protesting that they turned their neighborhood into a war zone (using them as human shields) and bringing destruction upon them. How unpatriotic, and a lesson to the other 1+ million people not to challenge the ruling junta who illegally seized power nearly 10 years ago and hasn't held elections since!


    AyaTrolLiar> Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    His lack of mental abilities starts with his reading discomprehension, combined with his lack of "recall". His problem is that he is so used to twisting everything (e.g. adding "only" to what I said at the top of this post) that he no longer has any sense of reality. Otherwise known as delusional, and stuck in that box without a paddle (or neurons) to escape it.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 15, 2016 10:02 PM GMT
    The AyaTrolLiar insanity continues:

    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    AyaTrolLiar> What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.
    (An especially dense move given that my non-exhaustive list had other examples, too.)

    AyaTrolLiar> "terrorists" MOSTLY target non-infant and 15-17-year-old children

    There he goes again, coherent thought is simply beyond him.
    No wonder he quotes "terrorists", because, you know, people who intentionally blow up children are "freedom fighters", eh?

    AyaTrolLiar> an age group you sought to deny were children because "military age" in Gaza is one year younger than in the UK

    Chalk up another epic mental failure. Nowhere did I claim that 15-17 year old children aren't children.
    I pointed out that Saudi law (yup, the troll has totally lost track of the thread's topic once he saw the word Israel) does and that this is common in the mideast, including 15 being military age.

    Seeking to justify this because the UK shamefully allows recruits as young as 16 (one of only 20 countries to do so, in violation of international standards) is another example of petty pouncer's perverse style of "argument". He should be condemning UK, not use itto try and justify Hamas while claiming - pretending - to condemn Hamas for this.

    As I'm sure he knows, again highlighting his useless idiot dishonesty, the UK doesn't allow 16 and 17 year old recruits to participate in combat. So again his pathetic apologism fails miserably.


    There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    AyaTrolLiar> A lot depends on where the bomb is placed.

    Once again showing us that statistics are beyond him. As is logic: at best he's arguing that terrorists target 15-17 year old children (what a relief, eh? Almost makes them human) rather than toddlers and infants. Yet we know that his Hamas and other terrorist heroes have no compunction about brutally murdering infants and toddlers, too.

    AyaTrolLiar> children (including 15-17-year-olds) represent the smallest fraction of Israeli civilians killed

    Now he's trying to defend his prior lie with new irrelevancies, again at the expense of the larger point.


    There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    AyaTrolLiar> So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    This is the closest he gets to the topic, but only to twist it into a pretzel.
    Israeli high school children are not "of military age" and are not perceived as such, either.
    Schools are soft targets.

    AyaTrolLiar> You mean like mosques and nurseries in Gaza?

    When mosques and schools are used to store rockets, or are tunnel terminals, they are not "soft targets" but legitimate military targets.


    AyaTrolLIar> Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Really? This "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as Sharkspeare famously noted) is asking why terrorists don't go after even softER targets?

    Cast Lead was going on 8 years ago and this is another invented BS "statistic".

    AyaTrolLiar> "Operation Protective Edge" two years ago

    Once an idiot, always an idiot. He can't help it.

    How odd that in bombing so many "nurseries", few toddlers and many terrorists were killed.

    AyaTrolLiar> blah blah blah

    || According to data provided by the Palestinian International Middle East Media Center, 79.7% of the Palestinians killed in Gaza were male, with the majority between 16 and 35 (fighting-age)

    This segment of the population represents a mere 9% of the population, but they were hanging out at "nurseries" and "mosques" during a war?


    Hamas admits it lied about Casualties... Yet some RJers still attempt to spam & perpetuate those propaganda lies-for-the-cause?!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1217613

    AyaTrolLiar> A discredited allegation

    ROTFL. Nothing at all "discredited" about it, and it correlates well to other data.

    AyaTrolLiar> one conflict out of eight

    One of the two largest in recent years.

    It is well known that Hamas lies, just as it is well known that in his usual reversal of the scientific method, AyaTrolLiar Founcer/JTheM laps up those lies and regurgitates them (because they conform to his preconceived notions which he masquerades as "conclusions" or worse, a "model").


    one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds

    AyaTrolLiar> the bombing is quite deliberate, with an estimated 99% of IDF bombs hitting their targets. Hardly "random".

    Those targets are not civilians but terrorists who "cowardly blend" amongst and behind civilians, e.g. firing rockets from school yards and hospital grounds (but this useless idiot thinks that is not "human shielding" because - contrary to international law - he thinks that's only when civilians are located to military targets but not when military targets are located behind civilians).

    AyaTrolLiar> like Israel fires into Gaza from kibbutzim and the middle of populated cities?

    Israel did no such thing. The rockets fired from urban areas were anti-missile missiles, to shoot down rockets intentionally fired at Israeli population centers in violation of international law.


    AyaTrolLiar> You're welcome to quote back to me any statements "justifying" or "supporting" the killing of collaborators in Gaza. If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders

    One need only look 2 paragraphs later:

    AyaTrolLiar> Hamas (one of countless armed groups that execute collaborators in the course of warfare

    That's his idea of "condemning". icon_lol.gificon_rolleyes.gif

    No wonder he can't reference himself doing so and seeks to put the burden on me.

    AyaTrolLiar> [still can't provide an example of condemnation]


    Hamas Commander, Accused of Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4188753

    I guess he doesn't "recall", but he defended this murder on the trumped charge that the victim also "stole".
    Ah, ok, no need for a trial then, eh?
    The penalty for theft is summary execution?
    Because "warfare"?

    AyaTrolLiar> I agreed that no action was justified without a trial.

    You didn't and you served as a Hamas ass-wiper apologist, failing to condemn them for yet another murder.
    You attempted to divert with Saudi Arabia, then with Israel, then asked why so much scrutiny on Hamas.

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 15, 2016 10:03 PM GMT
    Note further that Hamas summary executions are not limited to periods of "warfare".

    AyaTrolLiar> [wups, another apologism fail]


    Hamas even executed 20 people for protesting that they turned their neighborhood into a war zone (using them as human shields) and bringing destruction upon them. How unpatriotic, and a lesson to the other 1+ million people not to challenge the ruling junta who illegally seized power nearly 10 years ago and hasn't held elections since!

    AyaTrolLiar> [Couldn't care less about Gazans, he's just in it because he hates Jews/Israel, thus he loves Hamas the enemy of his enemy.]


    My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports.

    AyaTrolLiar> Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    His lack of mental abilities starts with his reading discomprehension, combined with his lack of "recall". His problem is that he is so used to twisting everything (e.g. adding "only" to what I said at the top of this post) that he no longer has any sense of reality. Otherwise known as delusional, and stuck in that box without a paddle (or neurons) to escape it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 16, 2016 7:36 AM GMT
    JTheM saidWhat? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?
    Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?


    It is more than that "Operation Cast Lead, " more Palestinians die by the hands of cold blooded Israeli terrorists. IDF was once the terrorist group in the 30s-40s such as the Irgun, the Lehi, the Haganah and the Palmach. Then now they became so-called "IDF" after 1948.

    mwolverine's grandparents must be terrorists?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 7:36 AM GMT
    My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports.

    AyaTrolLiar> Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    His lack of mental abilities starts with his reading discomprehension, combined with his lack of "recall". His problem is that he is so used to twisting everything (e.g. adding "only" to what I said at the top of this post) that he no longer has any sense of reality. Otherwise known as delusional, and stuck in that box without a paddle (or neurons) to escape it.

    Note how the troll can't quote what I said, just try to twist it out of context.
    I will:

    || While there is much to lament, at least it [Saudi Arabia] holds trials and treats bodies with respect.
    || Unlike ISIS and Hamas, with their vigilante executions, leaving bodies out to rot.

    Which confirms I have not "defended" Saudi Arabia (as he then claimed, not in the original thread but another one).
    To the contrary, while I said they were bad, I pointed out that Hamas, like Hizbullah and ISIS, is WORSE.

    As I noted, the AyaTrolLiar can't grasp (let alone bring) the actual facts, all he can "recall" is how he previously twisted reality.

    Not that this will prevent the pathological petty propaganda pouncer from lying further about it here.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 7:38 AM GMT
    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    AyaTrolLiar> What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.
    (An especially dense move given that my non-exhaustive list had other examples, too.)

    AyaTrolLiar> "terrorists" MOSTLY target non-infant and 15-17-year-old children

    There he goes again, coherent thought is simply beyond him.
    His terrorist heroes have targeted both, but as already noted older children are more prevalent in public spaces.

    No wonder he quotes "terrorists", because, you know, people who intentionally blow up children are "freedom fighters", eh?

    AyaTrolLiar> [seeks to distract with what the definition of a "terrorist" is]

    That's hardly a "distract[ion]". The point being that you think people who target and murder children are not terrorists only serves to show how mad with hate you are.

    AyaTrolLiar diversion> Nelson Mandela's ANC killed a 2-year-old and an 8-year-old in its most infamous shopping mall attack, along with three other civilians. The street where the mall is located has since been renamed in honor of the man who carried out the bombing.

    As usual, he's wrong on almost every point. The terrorist in question was tried, convicted and executed. He claimed he didn't intend to kill anyone, but the ANC itself condemned his "rogue" attack. The Sanlam Shopping Centre in Amanzimtoti is on Grants St - which is not the name of the terrorist.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 7:41 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> an age group you sought to deny were children because "military age" in Gaza is one year younger than in the UK

    Chalk up another epic mental failure. Nowhere did I claim that 15-17 year old children aren't children.
    I pointed out that Saudi law (yup, the troll has totally lost track of the thread's topic once he saw the word Israel) does


    AyaTrolLiar> You were the one who brought Israel into it, not me, and you're calling for a timeout already?

    I mentioned Israel in the context of the thread.
    You went crazy. Well, not went, you always were.
    Nor have I called for a timeout. Just pointed out how you lost it. Repeatedly.


    The AyaTrolLiar sought to justify Hamas using child soldiers (15-17) because the UK shamefully allows recruits as young as 16 (one of only 20 countries to do so, in violation of international standards) is another example of petty pouncer's perverse style of "argument". He should be condemning UK, not use itto try and justify Hamas while claiming - pretending - to condemn Hamas for this.

    AyaTrolLiar> [oops]


    As I'm sure he knows, again highlighting his useless idiot dishonesty, the UK doesn't allow 16 and 17 year old recruits to participate in combat. So again his pathetic apologism fails miserably.

    AyaTrolLiar> Not sure which is funnier - the "shame" he invokes at allowing people old enough to leave school, have sex, drive a car and get married the opportunity to enlist in the military, or the anticlimax he then introduces (intended to be at my expense) that these are non-combat related duties

    And he has now argued from multiple contradictory premises.
    He just doesn't know how to think, doesn't understand the scientific method, just arguments of convenience.

    o The UK shouldn't recruit minors to its military, but at least it doesn't put them in combat roles.

    o Hamas shouldn't recruit (even younger) minors to perpetrate acts of terrorism - "combat" roles.

    If he allegedly "condemned" Hamas for doing so, why did he try to excuse it by first saying that others do so and then that the UK does the same (nope!) with children only 1 year older?

    Why does he postulate (can't say "think") there's a problem with my argument?

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 7:43 AM GMT
    There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    AyaTrolLiar> A lot depends on where the bomb is placed.

    Once again showing us that statistics are beyond him. As is logic: at best he's arguing that terrorists target 15-17 year old children (what a relief, eh? Almost makes them human) rather than toddlers and infants. Yet we know that his Hamas and other terrorist heroes have no compunction about brutally murdering infants and toddlers, too.

    AyaTrolLiar> children (including 15-17-year-olds) represent the smallest fraction of Israeli civilians killed

    From 2000-2008, 17% of Israeli civilians murdered by terrorists were minors.

    Note further that women accounted for 32% of Israeli civilian casualties (36% in Israel, 22% in the disputed territories).

    In contrast, only 3% of Palestinian Arabs killed were women. Further confirming that Israel doesn't target civilians, let alone randomly (in which case we'd expect a figure close to 50%).

    The larger, prior, point was that contrary to his initial nonsense, there is no expectation that fewer toddlers would be murdered by Palestinian Arab terrorists than children aged 15-17.

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 7:46 AM GMT
    There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    AyaTrolLiar> So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    This is the closest he gets to the topic, but only to twist it into a pretzel.
    Israeli high school children are not "of military age" and are not perceived as such, either.
    Schools are soft targets.

    AyaTrolLiar> You mean like mosques and nurseries in Gaza?

    When mosques and schools are used to store rockets, or are tunnel terminals, they are not "soft targets" but legitimate military targets.

    AyaTrolLiar> Subject to the principle of proportionality

    About which he is clueless (hint: it has nothing to do with comparing casualty rates).

    AyaTrolLiar> the tunnels were not used to attack civilians, but to capture and ambush soldiers of an invading army during war

    ROTFL. What a "brilliant" strategy Hamas had. Fire hundreds of rockets at Israeli civilians - from amongst and behind their own civilians - to provoke an Israeli response ("invasion") in the hopes of capturing a soldier or two.

    Other tunnels were built into Israel, leading to civilian areas.


    AyaTrolLIar> Why not nurseries and elementary schools? You know, like the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Really? This "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as Sharkspeare famously noted) is asking why terrorists don't go after even softER targets?

    Cast Lead was going on 8 years ago and this is another invented BS "statistic".

    AyaTrolLiar> "Operation Protective Edge" two years ago

    Once an idiot, always an idiot. He can't help it.

    How odd that in bombing so many "nurseries", few toddlers and many terrorists were killed.

    AyaTrolLiar> 180 is such a low number of 0-5 year olds killed

    You are saying that parents sent their children to nurseries during the war?

    || According to data provided by the Palestinian International Middle East Media Center, 79.7% of the Palestinians killed in Gaza were male, with the majority between 16 and 35 (fighting-age)

    This segment of the population represents a mere 9% of the population, but they were hanging out at "nurseries" and "mosques" during a war?


    AyaTrolLiar> a totally unnecessary war.

    True. If only Hamas had extended the ceasefire rather than launch hundreds of rockets at Israeli civilians.


    The AyaTrolLiar pretends to be befuddled why Hamas would store rockets in mosques and schools despite knowing that this wouldn't prevent Israeli attacks on them. He is the answer. Hamas preys on useless idiots who seek to demonize Israel for doing so. Just as they seek to demonize Israel for firing at rocket launchers intentionally positioned amongst and behind civilians.

    Ponder further that the AyaTrolLiar never condemns Hamas for doing so but - despite the danger to civilians, and despite these rockets directly killing more Gazans than Israelis - is sufficiently deluded to claim they have a "right" to do so.

    Just as he doesn't condemn Hamas terrorist for targeting and murdering children, be they infants or in the 15-17 group.

    He saves his faux outrage because Israel allegedly targets minarets because they are symbols of Islam?!

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 7:50 AM GMT
    Hamas admits it lied about Casualties... Yet some RJers still attempt to spam & perpetuate those propaganda lies-for-the-cause?!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1217613

    AyaTrolLiar> A discredited allegation

    ROTFL. Nothing at all "discredited" about it, and it correlates well to other data.

    AyaTrolLiar> one BS Hamas "statistic" gels with one BS Israeli statistic.

    That the detailed numbers are almost identical (off by a few percentage points) is no coincidence.
    Nor is the fact that Hamas' late admission was more than 10x its earlier claims.

    At least the AyaTrolLiar has dropped his nonsensical claim that this was just one person providing these numbers - the Hamas minister in charge of that information!

    Note further that no one within Hamas even disputed that. Not at the time or since.

    It's only the AyaTrolLiar who has to continue lying about it. For the cause.


    AyaTrolLiar> one conflict out of eight

    One of the two largest in recent years.

    AyaTrolLiar> And human rights investigations estimate the death toll at 65-80% civilian for both.

    Based on false figures provided to them by Hamas.


    It is well known that Hamas lies, just as it is well known that in his usual reversal of the scientific method, AyaTrolLiar Founcer/JTheM laps up those lies and regurgitates them (because they conform to his preconceived notions which he masquerades as "conclusions" or worse, a "model").

    AyaTrolLiar> Like Israel then.

    Yawn. Israel's figures have repeatedly been shown to be accurate (perhaps off by a few percentage points) while Hamas lied by more than 10x (1000%).
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 7:51 AM GMT
    one can't logically claim that Israeli is "randomly" bombing Gaza other than by ignoring that casualties are not random. Few are women, children under 15 or the elderly. The majority are males of fighting age - which unfortunately includes 15 year olds

    AyaTrolLiar> the bombing is quite deliberate, with an estimated 99% of IDF bombs hitting their targets. Hardly "random".

    Those targets are not civilians but terrorists who "cowardly blend" amongst and behind civilians, e.g. firing rockets from school yards and hospital grounds (but this useless idiot thinks that is not "human shielding" because - contrary to international law - he thinks that's only when civilians are located to military targets but not when military targets are located behind civilians).

    AyaTrolLiar> like Israel fires into Gaza from kibbutzim and the middle of populated cities?

    Israel did no such thing. The rockets fired from urban areas were anti-missile missiles, to shoot down rockets intentionally fired at Israeli population centers in violation of international law.

    AyaTrolLiar> In Tel Aviv, a target of Hamas rocket attacks, the army headquarters is in one of the city's most densely populated neighborhoods, where uniformed officers eat in the cafes and shop in the malls

    As he says, Tel Aviv, not Israel's "Pentagon" (note that the US Pentagon is also located in a city!) was the target. Hamas rockets lack the accuracy to strike a particular target.

    The point, of course, was that Israel wasn't firing rockets out of Tel Aviv.

    AyaTrolLiar> You mean like when Human Rights Watch observes that "fixed military facilities, such as IDF bases, are located next to or in the midst of civilian settlements" in Israel?

    It doesn't really matter how many different ways you twist your nonsense, it remains nonsense.

    o First, Israel isn't firing from those bases. There is no analogy to firing rockets from Gaza.

    o Second, Hamas rockets - as HRW, AI and the UN have repeatedly stated - lack the accuracy to target such and are illegal.

    It's as idiotic as claiming that someone throwing a grenade in a football stadium from row 90 (and falling in row 60) was trying to hit the color guard raising the flag on the field.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 7:52 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> You're welcome to quote back to me any statements "justifying" or "supporting" the killing of collaborators in Gaza. If I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders

    One need only look 2 paragraphs later:

    AyaTrolLiar> Hamas (one of countless armed groups that execute collaborators in the course of warfare

    That's his idea of "condemning". icon_lol.gificon_rolleyes.gif

    No wonder he can't reference himself doing so and seeks to put the burden on me.

    AyaTrolLiar> [still can't provide an example of condemnation]


    Hamas Commander, Accused of Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4188753

    I guess he doesn't "recall", but he defended this murder on the trumped charge that the victim also "stole".
    Ah, ok, no need for a trial then, eh?
    The penalty for theft is summary execution?
    Because "warfare"?

    AyaTrolLiar> I agreed that no action was justified without a trial.

    You didn't and you served as a Hamas ass-wiper apologist, failing to condemn them for yet another murder.
    You attempted to divert with Saudi Arabia, then with Israel, then asked why so much scrutiny on Hamas.

    AyaTrolLiar> IF I recall, I was quite clear in condemning such murders

    ROTFL. Review the thread and post that if you can.


    Note further that Hamas summary executions are not limited to periods of "warfare".

    AyaTrolLiar> [wups, another apologism fail]


    Hamas even executed 20 people for protesting that they turned their neighborhood into a war zone (using them as human shields) and bringing destruction upon them. How unpatriotic, and a lesson to the other 1+ million people not to challenge the ruling junta who illegally seized power nearly 10 years ago and hasn't held elections since!

    AyaTrolLiar> [Couldn't care less about Gazans, he's just in it because he hates Jews/Israel, thus he loves Hamas the enemy of his enemy.]

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 16, 2016 7:53 AM GMT
    Two questions for mwolverine. Sadly, you are clueless about human rights.

    Who has powerful weapon and technology? Hamas or IDF?

    Who is occupying? Hamas or IDF?

    http://972mag.com/on-the-palestinians-legal-right-to-fight-the-occupation/30855/
    || Israeli human rights lawyer Lynda Brayer remarks, “When we say moral, we’re talking about the general principle of behavior to promote, sustain, nurture, and help human life… international law reflects, on paper, moral values as we understand them.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/10/tel-aviv-mayor-links-terror-attack-to-israeli-occupation-of-palestinian-lands/
    || “We, as a state, are the only ones in the world with another people living among us under our occupation, denying them any civil rights,” - Tel Aviv mayor
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 16, 2016 8:01 AM GMT
    Three questions for Sam27:

    Who has powerful weapon and technology? USA or Taliban/ISIS?

    Hamas is "occupying" Gaza, no?

    None of which has anything to do with what was discussed above.
    So let me ask you another question:

    Do you, like the AyaTrolLiar, support Hamas using 15-17 year old children as "child terrorists" (can't quite call them "child soldiers")?
    Because, as he says, other countries (allegedly including the UK) do so?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 17, 2016 4:25 PM GMT
    My point, months ago, was sarcastic: that at least Saudi Arabia bothers with trials before executing people - unlike his lowly Hamas heroes, whose extra-judicial murders he not only seeks to justify but outright supports.

    AyaTrolLiar> Your "point" (unambiguously NOT sarcastic), was that Saudi Arabia conducts trials worthy of the name, beheading and stoning dissidents in the name of "justice" and law and order.

    His lack of mental abilities starts with his reading discomprehension, combined with his lack of "recall". His problem is that he is so used to twisting everything (e.g. adding "only" to what I said at the top of this post) that he no longer has any sense of reality. Otherwise known as delusional, and stuck in that box without a paddle (or neurons) to escape it.

    Note how the troll can't quote what I said, just try to twist it out of context.
    I will:

    || While there is much to lament, at least it [Saudi Arabia] holds trials and treats bodies with respect.
    || Unlike ISIS and Hamas, with their vigilante executions, leaving bodies out to rot.

    Which confirms I have not "defended" Saudi Arabia (as he then claimed, not in the original thread but another one).
    To the contrary, while I said they were bad, I pointed out that Hamas, like Hizbullah and ISIS, is WORSE.

    As I noted, the AyaTrolLiar can't grasp (let alone bring) the actual facts, all he can "recall" is how he previously twisted reality.

    Not that this will prevent the pathological petty propaganda pouncer from lying further about it here.

    AyaTrolLiar> Hamas also holds trials

    We're talking about cases in which they don't.

    AyaTrolLiar> Both in terms of the number of people it murders... Saudi Arabia is FAR "worse" than Hamas.

    Only in absolute terms, not in relative terms. When Hamas summarily executed (without trial) 25 people 2 years ago, that's proportionate to Saudi Arabia executing 500 people at one time.

    AyaTrolLiar> Hezbollah, which neither executes Lebanese nor calls for an Islamic State in Lebanon, doesn't even belong in the same sentence.

    Who mentioned Hizbullah? (Thankfully, though, it doesn't run Lebanon.)

    Why not mention Iran along with Saudi Arabia? These are 2 of 4 states who still conduct public executions. Even in killing them, Iran tortures the condemned, using slow strangulation (everyone has seen the pictures of bodies hanging from cranes, but may not realize they aren't dropped to cause a quick death but picked up and left to dangle until they die) and by stoning.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 17, 2016 4:34 PM GMT
    When terrorists target youth night clubs, school buses and stops, malls and cafes, etc., there is no reason to expect a random distribution.

    AyaTrolLiar> What? "Terrorists" only target high school buses and yeshiva students?

    He introduced the word "only", making his statement a straw man.
    (An especially dense move given that my non-exhaustive list had other examples, too.)

    AyaTrolLiar> "terrorists" MOSTLY target non-infant and 15-17-year-old children

    There he goes again, coherent thought is simply beyond him.
    His terrorist heroes have targeted both, but as already noted older children are more prevalent in public spaces.

    No wonder he quotes "terrorists", because, you know, people who intentionally blow up children are "freedom fighters", eh?

    AyaTrolLiar> [seeks to distract with what the definition of a "terrorist" is]

    That he thinks people who target and murder children are not terrorists only serves to show how mad with hate he is.


    AyaTrolLiar diversion> Nelson Mandela's ANC killed a 2-year-old and an 8-year-old in its most infamous shopping mall attack, along with three other civilians. The street where the mall is located has since been renamed in honor of the man who carried out the bombing.

    As usual, he's wrong on almost every point. The terrorist in question was tried, convicted and executed. He claimed he didn't intend to kill anyone, but the ANC itself condemned his "rogue" attack. The Sanlam Shopping Centre in Amanzimtoti is on Beach and Grants St - which is not the name of the terrorist.

    Toti Mall Map


    AyaTrolLiar> I'm sure laying a mine in a busy shopping center during work hours is not intended to kill anyone

    It wasn't a mine but a bomb placed in a garbage can. I don't think he realized what the force of the blast would be.
    At his trial, he expressed regret for the death of innocents.

    That's something we hear from NATO and Israel about unintended civilian casualties.
    But NEVER from Hamas and other Palestinian Arab terrorist groups.

    They commend people (even children!) for murdering innocents while the masses celebrate these murders.

    Palestinians Celebrate Terror Attack
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/3987499/

    Poll: Two-Thirds of Palestinian Arabs support murder of Israeli Jews, 25% even if attackers are little girls
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4192905


    AyaTrolLiar> He belonged to their armed wing. Oliver Tambo was not the leader of the ANC at the time, and in fact had warned earlier that year:

    || In the past, we were saying the ANC will not deliberately take innocent life. But now, looking at what is happening in South Africa, it is difficult to say civilians are not going to die.

    He still isn't saying they'll target civilians.

    http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1996/9608/s960822f.htm

    It was never African National Congress policy to permit random attacks on civilian targets, Deputy President Thabo Mbeki told the Truth Commission on Thursday.

    In his party's submission to a special seven-member panel of the committee, Mbeki said it had always been ANC policy - ever since the formation of its armed wing Umkhonto we Sizwe - to avoid unnecessary loss of life.

    Every MK combatant was also trained not to define the enemy in racial terms, while the ANC in 1977 was the first liberation movement to become a signatory to the Geneva Convention on the conduct of war.

    So no, the PLO and now Hamas - who for decades target civilians - are nothing like the ANC.

    Nor is the AyaTrolLiar, who thinks they have a "right" to violate the Geneva Conventions.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 17, 2016 4:38 PM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> an age group you sought to deny were children because "military age" in Gaza is one year younger than in the UK

    Chalk up another epic mental failure. Nowhere did I claim that 15-17 year old children aren't children.
    I pointed out that Saudi law (yup, the troll has totally lost track of the thread's topic once he saw the word Israel) does


    AyaTrolLiar> You were the one who brought Israel into it, not me, and you're calling for a timeout already?

    I mentioned Israel in the context of the thread.

    AyaTrolLiar> You said to "remember" that the "Islamic custom" is to consider boys adults at age 15

    Which is perfectly in-line with the thread.

    You went crazy. Well, not went, you always were.
    Nor have I called for a timeout. Just pointed out how you lost it. Repeatedly.


    The AyaTrolLiar sought to justify Hamas using child soldiers (15-17) because the UK shamefully allows recruits as young as 16 (one of only 20 countries to do so, in violation of international standards) is another example of petty pouncer's perverse style of "argument". He should be condemning UK, not use itto try and justify Hamas while claiming - pretending - to condemn Hamas for this.

    AyaTrolLiar> [oops]


    As I'm sure he knows, again highlighting his useless idiot dishonesty, the UK doesn't allow 16 and 17 year old recruits to participate in combat. So again his pathetic apologism fails miserably.

    AyaTrolLiar> Not sure which is funnier - the "shame" he invokes at allowing people old enough to leave school, have sex, drive a car and get married the opportunity to enlist in the military, or the anticlimax he then introduces (intended to be at my expense) that these are non-combat related duties

    And he has now argued from multiple contradictory premises.
    He just doesn't know how to think, doesn't understand the scientific method, just arguments of convenience.

    These things remain true:

    o The UK shouldn't recruit minors to its military, but at least it doesn't put them in combat roles.

    o Hamas shouldn't recruit (even younger) minors to perpetrate acts of terrorism - "combat" roles.

    AyaTrolLiar> 16-year-olds are NOT minors under UK law

    Oh? They can (other than Scotland) vote?
    Enlist or get married without parental consent?
    Buy a drink?
    Even child porn is defined as under-18.

    Once again the pathological liar can't help but out himself as such.


    AtaTrolLiar> nor did I condemn Hamas enlisting 15-year-olds

    Of course he didn't. That was a criticism.


    If he allegedly "condemned" Hamas for doing so, why did he try to excuse it by first saying that others do so and then that the UK does the same (nope!) with children only 1 year older?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 17, 2016 4:40 PM GMT
    There are more teenagers at a mall than infants

    AyaTrolLiar> A lot depends on where the bomb is placed.

    Once again showing us that statistics are beyond him: Contrary to his initial nonsense, there is no expectation that fewer toddlers would be murdered by Palestinian Arab terrorists than children aged 15-17.

    AyaTrolLiar> Why is that? Infants represent the most vulnerable in society, as do the elderly and disabled.

    The question isn't who is "most vulnerable" but who is more likely to frequent public spaces.
    The spaces targeted by Palestinian Arab terrorists, who intentionally target civilians.

    What nonsense next? That few children were murdered on 9/11?


    Just when you thought the vile idiot couldn't put himself in an even worse light:

    AyaTrolLiar> The vast majority of the targets are men and women of military age (18-51)

    ROTFL. This "group" is of course the majority of the population.
    Hey, I guess 9/11 was OK because the vast majority of civilians murdered were "of military age (18-51)".

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 17, 2016 4:44 PM GMT
    At best he's arguing that terrorists target 15-17 year old children (what a relief, eh? Almost makes them human) rather than toddlers and infants. Yet we know that his Hamas and other terrorist heroes have no compunction about brutally murdering infants and toddlers, too.

    AyaTrolLiar> children (including 15-17-year-olds) represent the smallest fraction of Israeli civilians killed

    From 2000-2008, 17% of Israeli civilians murdered by terrorists were minors.

    AyaTrolLiar> 20% of Palestinians murdered were minors.

    Unlike Israeli children, they weren't targeted and murdered in cold blood but killed during military action.

    How odd that he misconstrues 16-17 year olds in the UK as non-minors but considers 15-17 year olds in Gaza to be "minors" despite legally being adults.

    Let's now get better resolution of this 20% figure. We already know that the majority is in the 15-17 group. Only a single digit percentage is in the 0-14 group - which accounts for more than half of the population!

    Were Israel randomly [indiscriminately] bombing Gaza or randomly attacking civilians, we'd expect an order of magnitude (~10x) more casualties in the 0-14 group.

    Conclusion: Israel does not randomly [indiscriminately] target civilians, to the contrary doing quite well at avoiding deaths of 0-14 year old minors.


    Note further that women accounted for 32% of Israeli civilian casualties (36% in Israel, 22% in the disputed territories).

    In contrast, only 3% of Palestinian Arabs killed were women. Further confirming that Israel doesn't target civilians, let alone randomly [indiscriminately] (in which case we'd expect a figure close to 50%).

    AyaTrolLiar> Because Palestinian women are not known to carry out "terrorist" attacks

    Correct, excluding some exceptions.
    You also won't find them in the "police" or military forces.

    He ignores the point that were Israel randomly [indiscriminately] bombing Gaza, 50% of the casualties, would be women.
    The actual figure is less than 1/10th of that.

    Conclusion: Israel does not randomly [indiscriminately] target civilians, to the contrary doing quite well at avoiding deaths of women.


    || According to data provided by the Palestinian International Middle East Media Center, 79.7% of the Palestinians killed in Gaza were male, with the majority between 16 and 35 (fighting-age)

    This much narrower segment of the population represents a mere 9% of the population.

    Obviously some were innocent civilians, but there is no reason to assume that the rate is significantly higher than child or female deaths.

    The number of innocent Gazans killed could be further reduced if Hamas and other terrorist groups abided by the Third Geneva Convention and wore uniforms to distinguish themselves from civilians. Or the Fourth Geneva Convention, and didn't operate from amongst and behind the civilian population.

    Alas, war mongers like the AyaTrolLiar aren't interested in the welfare of Gazans, only to use them to try and demonize Israel.

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 17, 2016 4:46 PM GMT
    There are no toddlers, only 15-17 year olds, in a high school yeshiva classroom

    AyaTrolLiar> So they are deliberately targeting those they perceive to be of military age?
    I thought the propaganda line was that they picked out soft targets?

    This is the closest he gets to the topic, but only to twist it into a pretzel.
    Israeli high school children are not "of military age" and are not perceived as such, either.
    Schools are soft targets.

    AyaTrolLiar> You mean like mosques and nurseries in Gaza?

    When mosques and schools are used to store rockets, or are tunnel terminals, they are not "soft targets" but legitimate military targets.

    AyaTrolLiar> Subject to the principle of proportionality

    About which he is clueless (hint: it has nothing to do with comparing casualty rates).

    AyaTrolLiar> doesn't deny Israel rejects the principle

    I pointed out he doesn't even understand it.
    What's the point of discussing it with him?


    AyaTrolLiar> the tunnels were not used to attack civilians, but to capture and ambush soldiers of an invading army during war

    ROTFL.

    What a "brilliant" strategy Hamas had. Fire hundreds of rockets at Israeli civilians - from amongst and behind their own civilians - to provoke an Israeli response ("invasion") in the hopes of capturing a soldier or two.

    Other tunnels were built into Israel, leading to civilian areas.


    AyaTrolLiar> the usual reversal of cause and effect - Israel had already conducted 110 airstrikes on the Gaza Strip, and IDF soldiers and settlers had been rampaging across the West Bank for a month, before Hamas fired any bottle "rockets" at Israel.

    Even if true, and it isn't, why even bother to fire "bottle 'rockets'" at Israel given that they directly kill more Gazans than they murder Israelis?

    In reality, Israeli security forces were reacting to the murder of 3 Israeli teens.

    Nearly 400 rockets were fired at Israel in 2014 BEFORE Israel launched Protective Edge.


    AyaTrolLiar> THREE schools

    Three UN schools.
    What about the Hamas schools?


    AyaTrolLIar> the 263 Palestinian nurseries struck by Israel in the course of "Operation Cast Lead" two years ago?

    Really? This "all around shitty excuse of a human being" (as Sharkspeare famously noted) is asking why terrorists don't go after even softER targets?

    Cast Lead was going on 8 years ago and this is another invented BS "statistic".

    AyaTrolLiar> "Operation Protective Edge" two years ago

    Once an idiot, always an idiot. He can't help it.

    AyaTrolLiar> That was his response to my citation

    It was my response to you saying Cast Lead was 2 years ago.
    Quoting and responding to that out of context, to twist it, reveals his useless idiot (can't call it "intellectual") dishonesty atop of his idiocy.


    How odd that in bombing so many "nurseries", few toddlers and many terrorists were killed.

    AyaTrolLiar> 180 is such a low number of 0-5 year olds killed

    You are saying that parents sent their children to nurseries during the war?

    || According to data provided by the Palestinian International Middle East Media Center, 79.7% of the Palestinians killed in Gaza were male, with the majority between 16 and 35 (fighting-age)

    This segment of the population represents a mere 9% of the population, but they were hanging out at "nurseries" and "mosques" during a war?

    AyaTrolLiar> sentence directly following the one he cherry-picked

    || a New York Times analysis states that males of ages that are most likely to be militants form 9% of the population but 34% of the casualties

    Numbers vary, but they confirm what I said:

    Gazan women and children (under 15 - see topic!), unlike Israeli women and children, are way under-represented in casualty figures.

    Men of fighting age are way over-represented in Gazan casualty figures.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 17, 2016 4:48 PM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> a totally unnecessary war.

    True. If only Hamas had extended the ceasefire rather than launch hundreds of rockets at Israeli civilians.

    AyaTrolLiar> Hamas launched its first non-rocket in over 19 months on 7 July, in response to Israeli airstrikes.

    By July 7th, nearly 400 rockets had been fired from Gaza into Israel.

    Why even fire these rockets - at Israeli civilians from behind Gazan civilians - when they only manage to kill more Gazans than they murder Israelis?



    The AyaTrolLiar pretends to be befuddled why Hamas would store rockets in mosques and schools despite knowing that this wouldn't prevent Israeli attacks on them. He is the answer. Hamas preys on useless idiots who seek to demonize Israel for doing so. Just as they seek to demonize Israel for firing at rocket launchers intentionally positioned amongst and behind civilians.

    Ponder further that the AyaTrolLiar never condemns Hamas for doing so but - despite the danger to civilians, and despite these rockets directly killing more Gazans than Israelis - is sufficiently deluded to claim they have a "right" to do so.

    AyaTrolLiar> You're denying this?

    There is no "right" to violate the Third or Fourth Geneva Conventions.
    There is no "right" reserved for Palestinian Arab terrorists to violate modern anti-terrorist conventions.


    Which is why the UN and human rights group repeatedly and unequivocally condemn them.


    Just as he doesn't condemn Hamas terrorist for targeting and murdering children, be they infants or in the 15-17 group (as we just saw him repeat, he thinks it's their "right"!)

    He saves his faux outrage because Israel allegedly targets minarets because they are symbols of Islam?!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5332

    Oct 17, 2016 4:55 PM GMT
    Hamas admits it lied about Casualties... Yet some RJers still attempt to spam & perpetuate those propaganda lies-for-the-cause?!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1217613

    AyaTrolLiar> A discredited allegation

    ROTFL. Nothing at all "discredited" about it, and it correlates well to other data.

    AyaTrolLiar> one BS Hamas "statistic" gels with one BS Israeli statistic.

    That the detailed numbers are almost identical (off by a few percentage points) is no coincidence.
    Nor is the fact that Hamas' late admission was more than 10x its earlier claims.

    At least the AyaTrolLiar has dropped his nonsensical claim that this was just one person providing these numbers - the Hamas minister in charge of that information!

    Note further that no one within Hamas even disputed that. Not at the time or since.

    It's only the AyaTrolLiar who has to continue lying about it. For the cause.


    AyaTrolLiar> one conflict out of eight

    One of the two largest in recent years.

    AyaTrolLiar> And human rights investigations estimate the death toll at 65-80% civilian for both.

    Based on false figures provided to them by Hamas.

    AyaTrolLiar> their tallies exclude suspect cases provided by Hamas, such as possible execution victims and those likely to have died of natural causes.

    The tallies, weeks after, are notoriously unreliable. It's not like they conduct autopsies or check that a terminal cancer patient was killed as a result of fighting.

    They also ignore that people who are claimed as "civilians" get military funerals.

    AyaTrolLiar> cross-checked with... hospitals

    Run by Hamas.
    According to "hospital" records, during Cast Lead not a single person in Gaza died of natural causes.


    It is well known that Hamas lies, just as it is well known that in his usual reversal of the scientific method, AyaTrolLiar Founcer/JTheM laps up those lies and regurgitates them (because they conform to his preconceived notions which he masquerades as "conclusions" or worse, a "model").

    AyaTrolLiar> Like Israel then.

    Yawn. Israel's figures have repeatedly been shown to be accurate (perhaps off by a few percentage points) while Hamas lied by more than 10x (1000%).

    AyaTrolLiar> the claim, made both officially before the Knesset and on the international news media, that Israel wasn't using White Phosphorus in Gaza?

    Obviously in the midst of a war there is sometimes miscommunication or errors in nuance, but in short order it was clarified that Israel was not using WP to target civilians (as was claimed), only legally as an obscurant.

    (Now watch the troll attempt to divert by discussing WP.)

    Again, Israel and Hamas almost agree on how many Hamas and other combatants were killed during Cast Lead.
    We can argue if it was 650 or 700, but it clearly wasn't 50 as Hamas maintained for YEARS.