Our Israeli Brothers and Sisters Prefer Clinton Over Trump by a Wide Margin

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 21, 2016 1:00 PM GMT
    It's good to know that Israel is behind our future president, Hillary Clinton. I honestly think that, given Netanyahu's current relationship with Pres. Obama, Hillary will do better in that arena.

    Poll: Israelis strongly favor Clinton over Trump
    By Oren Liebermann, CNN

    Almost twice as many Israelis prefer Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump, bucking the recent trend of Republican presidential candidates winning more support than Democrats, according to a new poll. When asked which candidate they preferred, 42% of Israelis said Clinton, compared with 24% who cited Trump, a survey from the Israel Democracy Institute found. Another 13% said the candidates are the same from Israel's perspective. The poll results represent a change from recent cycles in which Israelis have favored GOP candidates.

    READ MORE: http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/21/politics/israel-poll-trump-clinton/index.html.
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    Oct 21, 2016 4:33 PM GMT
    I'm not a fan of strongman Netanyahu and I was earlier disappointed in reports I'd read that many in Israel would support the strongman GOP leader tRump. So it is encouraging to see they've considered our situation further and come to more reasoned conclusion. May they consider their own future elections so deeply the next time a strongman comes knocking at their own door.

    Fuck the Putin's of the world. Fuck the Duterte's. Fuck the Trump's.

    Together we are stronger than the likes of them.
  • dreamcock

    Posts: 574

    Oct 22, 2016 1:39 AM GMT
    theantijock saidI'm not a fan of strongman Netanyahu and I was earlier disappointed in reports I'd read that many in Israel would support the strongman GOP leader tRump. So it is encouraging to see they've considered our situation further and come to more reasoned conclusion. May they consider their own future elections so deeply the next time a strongman comes knocking at their own door.

    Fuck the Putin's of the world. Fuck the Duterte's. Fuck the Trump's.

    Together we are stronger than the likes of them.


    You don't even have the balls to show your pic or profile name who gives a fuck what you think!!
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    Oct 22, 2016 2:48 AM GMT
    dreamcock said
    theantijock saidI'm not a fan of strongman Netanyahu and I was earlier disappointed in reports I'd read that many in Israel would support the strongman GOP leader tRump. So it is encouraging to see they've considered our situation further and come to more reasoned conclusion. May they consider their own future elections so deeply the next time a strongman comes knocking at their own door.

    Fuck the Putin's of the world. Fuck the Duterte's. Fuck the Trump's.

    Together we are stronger than the likes of them.


    You don't even have the balls to show your pic or profile name who gives a fuck what you think!!


    Aw, how cute!!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 22, 2016 10:21 AM GMT
    God_Said saidLibarat Palestine.
    When do thy want It?
    NOW!


    Only reason why so-called "Israel" prefer Clinton, because she is an old Zionist witch talks trash about Palestinian people all the time. She is more favor for "Israelis" than Palestinians. She careless about innocent Palestinian people being killed by cold-blooded Zionist terrorists.

    Wake up Dominus, you are blind to see the truth.

    No, I would not want Killary in our White House. I would rather vote for Trump!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 22, 2016 10:27 AM GMT
    dreamcock said
    theantijock saidI'm not a fan of strongman Netanyahu and I was earlier disappointed in reports I'd read that many in Israel would support the strongman GOP leader tRump. So it is encouraging to see they've considered our situation further and come to more reasoned conclusion. May they consider their own future elections so deeply the next time a strongman comes knocking at their own door.

    Fuck the Putin's of the world. Fuck the Duterte's. Fuck the Trump's.

    Together we are stronger than the likes of them.


    You don't even have the balls to show your pic or profile name who gives a fuck what you think!!


    Right on! Don't bother, he is a Zionist a-hole...
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 18415

    Oct 22, 2016 3:52 PM GMT
    Sam27 said
    God_Said saidLibarat Palestine.
    When do thy want It?
    NOW!


    Only reason why so-called "Israel" prefer Clinton, because she is an old Zionist witch talks trash about Palestinian people all the time. She is more favor for "Israelis" than Palestinians. She careless about innocent Palestinian people being killed by cold-blooded Zionist terrorists.

    Wake up Dominus, you are blind to see the truth.

    No, I would not want Killary in our White House. I would rather vote for Trump!
    Trump is a far more trustworthy and qualified candidate than that crooked, power hungry, incompetent whore Hillary rotten Clinton. That bitch has no legitimate right running for the White House because she is a career criminal who belongs in federal prison.

    Who gives a flying fuck who Israel wants, it is none of their damned business in the first placeicon_mad.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 22, 2016 10:08 PM GMT
    Being gay doesn't automatically come as a package deal involving a functioning set of brains too. So I'm not surprised they favor Clinton over Trump. Common sense is not a strong suit to most liberals these days, no matter what gender they fuck in the bedroom.
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    Oct 23, 2016 1:39 AM GMT
    Sam27 said

    Only reason why so-called "Israel" prefer Clinton, because she is an old Zionist witch talks trash about Palestinian people all the time. She is more favor for "Israelis" than Palestinians. She careless about innocent Palestinian people being killed by cold-blooded Zionist terrorists.

    Wake up Dominus, you are blind to see the truth.

    No, I would not want Killary in our White House. I would rather vote for Trump!


    oy vey! the goyim know!
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    Oct 23, 2016 7:43 AM GMT
    Ignorant...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 24, 2016 10:40 AM GMT
    [quote][cite]DOMINUS said[/cite]It's good to know that Israel is behind our future president, Hillary Clinton. I honestly think that, given Netanyahu's current relationship with Pres. Obama, Hillary will do better in that arena.

    Ahhm - Dude.... icon_eek.gif

    Sorry to let you down, but most people in Israel support Trump!
    He may not be perfect, but when you have to choose between to bad choices, you choose the one that will make the lease damage to you!

    Clinton already has some issues with antisemitism and anti-Israel public statements. That's long before she ran for the elections and during the race.
    Israel flags have been burnt by her voters in Philadelphia, where she gave her speech and the PLO flags (A terror organization, established in 1964) were being waved around (freedom of speech...)
    Clinton so far (and other previous presidents in the US) proved only a total ignorance in regards to the middle east, its societies and mentality which are very different from the west and nothing about the problems in Islam. She repeat the same colonialists rubbish from 100 years ago - as we see these days, this model has failed - states in the middle east and Africa are tearing part one by one and the fundamental Islam's terrorism, which belongs to the middle ages is blossom and keep spreading (even in Europe they finally start to understand it). If you want to look at the world via pink glasses, go ahead, but this won't change reality.

    Trump - is going to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to our eternal capitol - JERUSALEM! It's about time that the US will do so!!!!

    Trump object the colonialist rubbish of establishing a 22nd Islamic country, for random different and separated tribes OVER the land of Israel (the ridges of Judea and Samaria are still defines as the homeland of the Jewish people, according to the international law, League of Nations, 1922) and so the majority of Israelis, as reflects over and over again in our elections. .
    Trump is aware to the threats of the fundamental Islam over the west (and I do hope that you don't require another 9/11 or Pulse bar attack to remind you, what and who you deal with)

    On the same issue - I don't agree with him, for keeping the weaponry market free to all. When you got Sheikhs and Kadis, preaching in the mosques in the US to go and commit Jihad (religious war - the most important command in Islam) and Hijrah (Islamizing non-Muslim territories - the second most important command) and go kill the "Kufaars" (infidels) then america is a great place to get a weapon...
    He also keep making lot of mistakes and proves impulsiveness in his word (big mouth), which of course the opposition will use as a propaganda against him. However I do appreciate his honesty about his thought and not being afraid to express it in public (in Clinton I only find the same old hypocrisy which is typical to the west and now days this only do harm)

    _
    One more word in regards to the mainstream media - BE VERY CAREFUL with the content they presenting.
    The media is a commercial business and they exist thanks to you, who watching their adverts (this is how it goes).
    Beside that there are owners and directors who also has a political or social agenda, as it well reflects in their content - I guess you can tell the difference between the CNN and FOX news.
    The CNN for example, are one of the most anti-Israel channels and present a total twisted views of Israel, which has nothing to do with the actual reality!
    In Israel, the CNN were banned twice in the past, because of false reports, which assaults and slander Israelis. The NY times - is not better and I personally had the chance to meet their poor journalists!
    As for the mainstream media in Israel - pretty much the same. Left wing parties supporters. If you are not one of them, you won't be able to work on these channels. The Clinton propaganda also taking a part in those, however, the public doesn't buy this. We had/have the same sort of propaganda against Natanyahu and so far, he keep being elected.

    Anyway, I do hope Trump will get elected.
    I believe that he come from a good will to improve things and correct many small injustices which are being caused to Israel by the US government and at least try to deal with Islamic Terror (and it's about time that these words will be said loud and clear in America)

    However, if Clinton win - lets say that Israel has been through many much, much more serious and difficult situations in the past... We able to take care of ourselves.
    "The trailers are going, the train passes by but the track stays on the ground"
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    Oct 24, 2016 10:46 AM GMT
    jock203 said, Sam27 said, God_Said.... etc.

    "Only reason why so-called "Israel" prefer Clinton, because she is an old Zionist witch talks trash about Palestinian people all the time. She is more favor for "Israelis" than Palestinians. She careless about innocent Palestinian people being killed by cold-blooded Zionist terrorists.

    Wake up Dominus, you are blind to see the truth.

    No, I would not want Killary in our White House. I would rather vote for Trump!

    oy vey! the goyim know!
    "


    =================================
    ...and of course, in any post regards to Israel, there always must be some primitive, ignorant antisemites, who don't even worth the oxygen they breath and preach about "The Truth"...

    Why won't you guys move to Gaza to live as Dhimmis of Hamas?
    Get a room together...
    As gay guys, I'm sure they would love (executing) you. icon_lol.gif

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    Oct 24, 2016 3:51 PM GMT
    I haven't been on RJ much in the last six months and haven't contributed lately to any of the numerous threads on Israel/Palestine. But I thought I'd throw in a pitch here for the two-state solution. The deal that could have been closed decades ago if the Israeli terrorist Yigal Amir hadn't assassinated Yitzkhak Rabin of blessed memory. And if the Palestinian terrorists hadn't engaged in a spree of bus bombings in the months after Rabin's death that ultimately threw the election from Shimon Peres of blessed memory to Bibi Netanyahu. All that was now over 20 years ago. We were so close then....

    Anyway, here's an article from today's Ha'aretz that generally matches my own views on the topic. Ultimately, nothing will be achieved while extremists like Netanyahu remain in power in Israel.

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.748785

    May there be peace in our time, with the Jewish State of Israel and the Arab State of Palestine leaving side-by-side in peace and friendship.
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    Oct 24, 2016 3:54 PM GMT
    Two State Solution. AMEN!

    And if Trump & Netanyahu retire into the sunset together, all the better.
  • mwolverine4

    Posts: 2

    Oct 25, 2016 12:48 PM GMT
    I share your aspiration of a two-state solution.

    However, Israeli democracy isn't so fickle that the fate of the nation rides on one leader. As you note, in 1995 Rabin was succeeded by the (arguably more dovish) Peres, yet the bombings by Hamas (and other groups, including Fatah) - which started back in 1993 - didn't abate.

    In his first term, Netanyahu signed the Wye River Memorandum ("Oslo II" agreement), so juxtaposing him with Hamas bombings isn't accurate.

    True, he dragged his feet (to appease the more conservative part of his party/coalition), and that led to the fall of his government in a no-confidence vote. In 1999 he was replaced by Ehud Barak who was determined to reach an agreement. We all know what happened thereafter.

    In 2000, Arafat walked out of President Clinton's Camp David Summit, having "said no to everything" (to quote Clinton) and making no counter-offers (misconstrued by some that he was given a "take-it-or-leave-it" offer). Two months later he ordered his Tanzim chiefs to violence and then tried to ride the tiger of the intifada rather than implement the Sharm Agreement. With Barak and Clinton's terms nearing their end, Arafat delayed for weeks and ran out the clock in Washington and Taba (2001).

    More of the same followed, with Arafat rebuffing US envoys Burns and Zinni and never implementing the steps required at the outset of Phase I of the (2003) Roadmap to peace. After Arafat's death (2004), for the first time there was a (very slim) majority support for the Clinton parameters amongst the population. But Abbas, his successor, squandered opportunities in 2005 (Sharon's Gaza withdrawal), 2008 (Olmert plan), 2010 (Netanyahu's moratorium) and 2014 (Kerry initiative).

    Netanyahu isn't the problem but a symptom of a larger problem: the Palestinian Arab indecisiveness between pursing peace or violence/terrorism/war. In 2004, twelve years after the peace process began in Madrid, the NY Times quoted Muhammad Dahalan (then Arafat's security chief):

    || We failed to make peace and to make war. We failed at both. We have to decide now: Are we going to have war or peace? If it's war, I will be the first to pick up a machine gun.

    Now, another twelve years later, little has changed. Abbas, in the 11th year of his 4 year term, has accomplished nothing and is a spent force. Going on 82, he hasn't the base to make an agreement let alone implement it, and there is no assurance his successor(s) will abide by it. The Palestinian Arabs in the disputed territories remain nearly evenly divided between Fatah and Hamas.

    Rabin taught his people that "you make peace with your enemy", replacing the mantra of "we don't negotiate with terrorists".
    There has been no analog on the Palestinian Arab side, where incitement has tainted the next generations.

    duluthrunner said:
    I thought I'd throw in a pitch here for the two-state solution. The deal that could have been closed decades ago if the Israeli terrorist Yigal Amir hadn't assassinated Yitzkhak Rabin of blessed memory. And if the Palestinian terrorists hadn't engaged in a spree of bus bombings in the months after Rabin's death that ultimately threw the election from Shimon Peres of blessed memory to Bibi Netanyahu.

    Let's talk peace: The two-state solution
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4180210
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 25, 2016 2:15 PM GMT
    Israel is a tiny spec and it dosnt have any oil. tRump has the mighty Vladimir Putin. Observe where that that relationship is getting him. un-employed.

    No-work-here-300x300.jpg
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    Oct 26, 2016 7:48 AM GMT
    rtmnmk saidjock203 said, Sam27 said, God_Said.... etc.

    "Only reason why so-called "Israel" prefer Clinton, because she is an old Zionist witch talks trash about Palestinian people all the time. She is more favor for "Israelis" than Palestinians. She careless about innocent Palestinian people being killed by cold-blooded Zionist terrorists.

    Wake up Dominus, you are blind to see the truth.

    No, I would not want Killary in our White House. I would rather vote for Trump!


    oy vey! the goyim know! "


    =================================
    ...and of course, in any post regards to Israel, there always must be some primitive, ignorant antisemites, who don't even worth the oxygen they breath and preach about "The Truth"...

    Why won't you guys move to Gaza to live as Dhimmis of Hamas?
    Get a room together...
    As gay guys, I'm sure they would love (executing) you. icon_lol.gif



    Do me a favor as a Palestinian, take a hike. You don't even worth any oxygen, you breath and preach about "the truth". You are no better than us, you idiot.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 26, 2016 7:50 AM GMT
    duluthrunner saidI haven't been on RJ much in the last six months and haven't contributed lately to any of the numerous threads on Israel/Palestine. But I thought I'd throw in a pitch here for the two-state solution. The deal that could have been closed decades ago if the Israeli terrorist Yigal Amir hadn't assassinated Yitzkhak Rabin of blessed memory. And if the Palestinian terrorists hadn't engaged in a spree of bus bombings in the months after Rabin's death that ultimately threw the election from Shimon Peres of blessed memory to Bibi Netanyahu. All that was now over 20 years ago. We were so close then....

    Anyway, here's an article from today's Ha'aretz that generally matches my own views on the topic. Ultimately, nothing will be achieved while extremists like Netanyahu remain in power in Israel.

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.748785

    May there be peace in our time, with the Jewish State of Israel and the Arab State of Palestine leaving side-by-side in peace and friendship.


    Sure, continue building illegal settlements and taking more Palestinian lands

    Whoa, two state solution.... Whatever.
  • mwolverine4

    Posts: 2

    Oct 26, 2016 1:44 PM GMT
    When and how did the Land of Israel, let alone JUDEA and SAMARIA (as they've been know for thousands of years) become - all of them? - "Palestinian land"?

    Palestine?

    1. Palestine 100 years ago and prior centuries was the Greek-Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael.
    It was NOT a district/jurisdiction (let alone demographic group) in the Ottoman Empire.
    Nor under the Mamlukes or Crusaders before that, going back to 1099.


    ogwhu.jpg


    2. Maps equated "Palestine" with "terra sancta", the Jewish Holy Land.
    Explicitly sub-titled Juda & Israel.
    Showing the region subdivided into the Jewish tribal areas.
    And spanning both sides of the Jordan River


    A map from 1748:
    2ic6ypk.jpg

    Let's zoom in on the legend:
    2ekkrqs.jpg

    Note also that the map shows Judea and Samaria, but no "West Bank" (OF Trans/Jordan).
    2jin80.jpg


    3. Inadvertently proving this, in a previous discussion the AyaTrolLiar referenced a book from 1891, "Truth from Palestine".
    But that's a translation, in the original Hebrew, the title was "Truth from Eretz Yisrael".

    Wups.



    Palestinian?

    4. "Palestinian", as a noun, enters the lexicon in 1905.
    To describe Jews living in "Palestine", their homeland.


    From the on-line Etymological Dictionary:

    25kiext.jpg


    5. In one of his many dishonest minutes, AyaTrolLiar founcer/JTheM cited an early (1905) reference to "Palestinians".
    He neglected to mention that it was not to Arabs but to Jews!

    Wups.


    6. Thus Mandate Palestine was entrusted to re-establish the Jewish state. The word "homeland" was used in deference to the earlier Balfour declaration, but the purpose of the League of Nations' Mandate system was to establish independent states, not "bantustans". Note that the Mandate document states - 15 times - "in Palestine", not "within" as some like to twist:

    Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country...

    The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions

    "The country", not part of it, with only eastern/Transjordanian Palestine (today's Jordan) excluded.

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp


    7. Into the 1950s, the Arabs denied the existence of "Palestine" and "Palestinians".
    It was a "Zionist invention", they claimed, saying it was an indistinguishable part of Syria or Arabia.


    2rcpyx3.jpg


    8. Why the pretense of an Arab Palestine or Arab Palestinians? It is best explained by Zuheir Mohsen in 1977 - 10 years after 1967.
    He was then secretary general of the PLO’s Saiqa terrorist faction and a member of the PLO Executive Committee.


    The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.



    See also:

    "Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland
    and early 20th century Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine".

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491

    Arabs (like Arabic) NOT indigenous to Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4019405

    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 26, 2016 2:08 PM GMT
    ya that is what i said; "tiny spec"
    cheers tho
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 26, 2016 11:50 PM GMT
    Really? That is the best you can do mwolverine, posting useless pictures?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Oct 27, 2016 1:10 PM GMT
    Always the size queen? icon_lol.gif

    pellaz saidya that is what i said; "tiny spec"
    cheers tho
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Oct 27, 2016 1:16 PM GMT
    When and how did the Land of Israel, let alone JUDEA and SAMARIA (as they've been know for thousands of years) become - all of them? - "Palestinian land"?

    AyaTrolLiar> no one living there referred to it as "Judea and Samaria", but as Jabal Nabulus

    The Jewish and Samaritan natives called these Mount Grizim and Mount Ebal, the city was known as Shechem until it was destroyed by the Romans (European occupiers) in the Jewish-Roman war (note: not "Palestinian"-Roman war, not Arab-Roman war).

    The Jabal Nablus district only came to be under the Ottoman Empire (foreign occupiers from the border of Europe). It's 3 leading families in the Ottoman era (Nimr, Jarrar and Tuqans) weren't native but Arab settlers who colonized it around the same time Europeans were colonizing the New World (by that logic the Europeans were "natives" and their new names are what the locals call places, eh?)

    The last 2 times I posted the above, the AyaTrolLiar had no response. Odd that he tries again, but at least this time he refrains from using "natives" in favor of those "living there". You know, same as one might reference Europeans living in Boston in the 17th century.

    Notice that the question asked wasn't answered?

    When and how did the Land of Israel - all of it? - become "Palestinian Arab land"?


    See also:

    "Palestine" is the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland
    and early 20th century Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine".

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491

    Arabs (like Arabic) NOT indigenous to Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4019405

    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Oct 27, 2016 1:27 PM GMT
    1. Palestine 100 years ago and prior centuries was the Greek-Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael.
    It was NOT a district/jurisdiction (let alone demographic group) in the Ottoman Empire.
    Nor under the Mamlukes or Crusaders before that, going back to 1099.


    ogwhu.jpg

    AyaTrolLiar> The two were generally not conflated.

    Should we believe the 1911 Britannica telling us how the word was then used or a known pathological liar for the cause?

    AyaTrolLiar> The British used the term "Filastin" in Arabic and "Eretz Yisra'el" in Hebrew during the Mandate years, but they themselves used "Palestine" (not "Israel" or "Judah"

    The "Mandate years" were less than 100 years ago, yet still we see the equating of the three terms as the same.

    Odd that his first sentence tells us 2 of the terms were not "conflated" while his second sentences say the 2, and another term, were "conflated" by the British during the Mandate years.

    Since Israel traditionally referred only to the northern kingdom and Judah to the southern, neither term would have been appropriate for both combined. Ergo the British opted for "Eretz Yisrael", the Land of Israel, as "Palestine" had been "conflated" for centuries before the Mandate.


    AyaTrolLiar> At the turn of the last century, Palestine was already considered a "Wattaniya - a geopolitical locality - within a Qawmiyya - the pan-Arabist sphere of belonging", according to Israeli historian Ilan Pappé:

    dear. When you are relegated to one selective odd-ball historian - with a known penchant of twisting facts to suit his model - the desperation is evident.

    It's quite amazing how such a "locality" could exist exactly within borders that wouldn't be defined until 2 decades later.

    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202

    AyaTrolLiar> "distinguished by dialect, customs and the people itself."

    Except that the differences internally were greater than across the new borders. An Arab in Jericho to the east was closer in language, custom and blood to one in Amman (Trans/Jordan) than one in Gaza in the south. An Arab in Gaza was closer to one in El Arish (Egypt) than in Nazareth to the north. An Arab in Nazareth was closer to one in Tyre (Lebanon) than to the first Arab in Jericho.

    AyaTrolLiar> "By 1922 [the year the British Mandate began], the majority of the Palestinian leaders, and one guesses the population at large, conceptualized Palestine as the national homeland of the Palestinians lying between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean."

    How odd that prior to the conceptualization of this border, southern Lebanon and Trans-Jordan had been included in "Palestine".

    Indeed, that conceptualization still existed a decade and a half (and we'll see below, also more than half a century) later.
    What made Nayef Hawatmeh (founder of the DFLP), born to a Christian Bedouin tribe in Salt (Trans-Jordan) around 1938, a "Palestinian"?!

    AyaTrolLiar> Haim Gerber notes that polls showed, as early as 1914, the inhabitants of the land "were very much 'Palestinians' in their own eyes, and in fact even in the eyes of their Ottoman overlords."

    Let's look at more than one sentence written by Gerber, his source:

    || scholars almost universally agree that there were NO traces of Palestinian identity before it was invented by the British in 1918. Rashid Khalidi and Yehoshua Porath are alone in claiming that such an identity existed a little earlier, although for Porath it was no more than a reaction to Zionism.

    || I do NOT argue that a Palestinian nation existed before 1920

    || I do NOT even argue the existence of a full-fledged, self-conscious ethnic community.

    So he then jettisoned Gerber in favor of a different source, Porath.

    ATLF> Porath is considered the foremost expert on the Palestinian national movement

    And the title of his masterpiece on the subject?

    || The emergence of the Palestinian-Arab national movement, 1918-1929

    And he twists it to make it appear to have been completed already by "1914"?!
    He was claiming it began a century earlier?!

    The Emergence of Palestinian Arab Nationalism in the Mid-to-Late 20th Century
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729

    AyaTrolLiar> The standard work on the topic - a book to which he himself has appealed in the past - is "The Emergence of the Palestinian-Arab National Movement, 1918-1929", by Yehoshua Porath.

    ROTFL. I didn't "appeal" to that book. It was his source. I just pointed out that the title contradicted the selective twisted quotes of the AyaTrolLiar, who was claiming that Palestinian Arab nationalism dated to the 1830s - and that Porath agreed with that.

    AyaTrolLiar> Palestinian Arab nationalism is an Early-20th Century movement

    Oh? Not in the 1830s? I guess that's progress!

    But still there is a complete lack of nuance. It "emerged" in bits and pieces.
    With different thoughts and beliefs that varied over time.
    Consider that from 1949-1967 there was no movement to establish a Palestinian Arab state in the territories (then held by Arab governments).
    Those in Judea, Samaria and eastern Jerusalem accepted Trans/Jordan's unification/annexation and Trans/Jordanian citizenship.

    Consider that the PLO wouldn't try to take over Jordan until 1970 (after they lost the "West Bank").

    The current form is a post-1967 phenomenon.
    (See that thread: the inclusion of Bedouin and Armenians as Palestinians is a post-Oslo phenomenon.)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Oct 27, 2016 1:32 PM GMT
    2. Maps equated "Palestine" with "terra sancta", the Jewish Holy Land.
    Explicitly sub-titled Juda & Israel.
    Showing the region subdivided into the Jewish tribal areas.
    And spanning both sides of the Jordan River


    A map from 1748:
    2ic6ypk.jpg

    Let's zoom in on the legend:
    2ekkrqs.jpg

    Note also that the map shows Judea and Samaria, but no "West Bank" (OF Trans/Jordan).
    2jin80.jpg

    AyaTrolLiar> It is a biblical map for religious reference

    The point was the equating of "Palestine" with "Eretz Yisrael".

    AyaTrolLiar> not a map of contemporary Palestine.

    Of course not, there was no "contemporary Palestine".

    Travel maps from the 19th century mark a region that traversed borders.
    And included Trans-Jordan.

    Here's a map of Asia from 1834 with an insert of "Palestine"... broken down into the 12 tribes, too.

    001holy.jpg

    The Baedeker travel map from 1906 of "Southern Palestine" excludes the Negev but includes Trans-Jordan and clearly shows Judea & Samaria labeled as such.

    16bka5v.jpg

    And is very similar in scope to a British Army map of "Syria" from 1915-1917.

    16klfr.jpg

    Indeed, Baedeker even provided a map of "Judaea"!

    21174_5.jpg?v=1428615588

    I guess that means that Judea existed just as much as Palestine did.
    Not as states or countries, but as geographic regions.
    Just as the "midwest" may appear in maps or titles of maps.