How does it come humans can kill eachother and animals won't?

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    Oct 10, 2007 1:49 PM GMT
    Did you know? ==>

    During mating time male animals tend to become very agressive in order to find the best wife to depose his seemen in. Those fights can be very hard, brutal and agressive, but how does it come they seldom kill eachother? How does it come we are able to do so?

    Wel, animals first of all have a natural system that allows them to feel when they are close to losing, then they show a weak or vulnerable part of their body to the oponent, which then knows he has won and doesn't atack any more.
    The more natural weapons you posess, the more likely you are to have a "quick alarm". For example a tiger (which is strong,) can really hurt another tiger with their claws and teeth, yet a pigeon (which is naturaly weak) will have a high "pain tolerance" because of his weak weapons. (just a little beak...) The distance of the oponent is to take into consideration as well.

    Humans now;
    We are naturally very weak, (no claws, no beaks, no huge gums or poison...) but however we have made guns and weapons, so that we become a strong foe, though we have a high "pain tolerance". With the weapons we can shoot someone from distance which doesn't allow the oponent to show he's weak, and thus make a human capable to kill another human.
    That's why humans can kill eachother and animals won't.
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    Oct 10, 2007 10:47 PM GMT
    Simplest way to say this is that humans are self aware and animals are not. Animals (and humans too) instinctively act to preserve the species as a whole.

    Self awareness (that is, awareness of one's own mortality) is uniquely human. That awareness trumps survival of the species, so we are capable of killing if we perceive that it is in our own best interest to do so. Animals only kill to eat, or to preserve their young, which is in the best interest of the species...
  • Bean

    Posts: 16

    Oct 12, 2007 1:05 AM GMT
    Actually animals kill each other all the time that is the order of the world... if you will, "every thing that eats in time will it's self be eaten." That includes plants and men. And they do kill their own kind, it common among pack animals wolfs lions chimps that have a hierarchical structure that when the dominate member is deposed sometime in a battle to the death that the new dominate member will kill and frequently devour the immature offspring of the former dominate and drive off the rest...

    If you meant why does man commit murder and war on his brother personal gain or mass greed and animals don't? The truth is that chimps have been observed to murder rivals and wage war on neighboring band killing and take captives as slaves and they are just as brutal about it as humans... the battles fought by colonies of ants and termites make the atrocities committed by humans and other primate pale in comparison...

    The World and most likely the whole Universe is not a very nice or safe place for anyone...

    The one thing that humans do that animals don't is that Man will on occasion forgive an enemy

    Bean
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    Oct 12, 2007 7:19 AM GMT
    I would like to see your refference on that Bean, chimps taking slaves? That sound very far fetched for me.
    What I was explaining is that when an animal is close to losing he shows a weak body part and the assailant won't keep fighting him, he'll know the adversery has lost and will leave him to run. And thus forgive him.
    Animals don't kill for the sheer pleasure of it, that's at least what my sources indicate, if you have some substantial ones stating different, I'd be most interrested to see them.
    Ypofero
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    Oct 12, 2007 10:46 PM GMT
    ypofero are you referring to within the same species? As I doubt prey would ever show a weak side or it is simply lunch within the animal kingdom

    We dont exactly kill each other for mating do we so I dont see the point of your argument unless you are talking territorial or pack domination?
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    Oct 13, 2007 1:02 PM GMT
    Yes bfg1, I am refering to animals of the same species, I thought that would be clear, but obviously it is not, thank you for pointing that out!

    My point was that animals of the same species will not kill eachother because of the "pain limit". And pointing out what's the matter with our "pain limit" and how it has been socially and cuturally affected by evolution.
    Even as humans we remain animals and because of all these socio-cultural changes and evolutions we have had, I think we became more animals than we once were. And it was just a way to illustrate this.

    I'm currently taking an antropology class and started to put some interresting things I learned on my profile, but I had some responses I should place them on the forum, and so I did.

    Ypofero
  • MikemikeMike

    Posts: 6932

    Oct 14, 2007 5:08 PM GMT
    ypof unless Jane Goodall is lying, I did see a show on chimps where they raped, killed young for meat, and a couple of sub dominant males took females from other troops as their sex slaves. I think Bean was referring to that. Genetically we are the most closely related to chimps, she was able to uncover so much about them it turned the scientific community on it's ear.icon_eek.gif
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    Oct 14, 2007 5:11 PM GMT
    There is so much misinformation in this thread, it's making my brain bleed.

    (....and just to be clear, I'm NOT talking exclusively, or even primarily, about the original post.)
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    Oct 14, 2007 6:53 PM GMT
    MikemikeMike,
    I do not question that Jane Goodall has learned us a lot about chimpanzees and other primates, but I do question her way of working, and as following arcticle might show, there is reason to believe this;

    " Some primatologists have suggested flaws in Goodall's methodology which calls into question the validity of her observations. Goodall used unconventional practices in her study, for example, naming individuals instead of numbering them. Numbering is used to prevent emotional attachement and loss of objectivity. Many standard methods are aimed at helping observers to avoid interference and the use of feeding stations to attract Gombe chmpanzees is, in particular, though by some have altered normal foraging and feeding patterns as well as social relationships.
    It is suggested that higher levels of agression and conflict with other chimpanzee groups in the area were a consequence of the feeding, which could have created the "wars" between chimpanzee social groups described by Goodall. Thus some regard Goodall's observations as distortions of normal chimpanzee behaviour. Goodall herself (on several occasions) acknowleged that feeding contributed to agression within and between chimpanzee groups.

    I didn't see agression to start with. There's no question that chimpanzees become more agressive as a result of crowding, as a result of competition for food. J. Goodall
    It's very hard to look back with hindsight and say oh well, I would have done it differently. If I had gone to Gombe and had access to information about the effect of feeding bananas on wild chimpanzees I would never have done it. J. Goodall

    However Goodall has also said that the effect was limited to alteration of the intesity and not the nature of the chimpanzee conflict and further that feeding was necessary for the study to be effective at all.

    Some recent studies shuch as the study by Crickette Sanz in the Goualougo triangle (Congo) or by prof. Cristophe Boesch in the Thai forest (Ivory Coast) Have not shown the agression shown in the Gombe study.

    So far we havn't seen any abnormal levels of aggression. We've never seen chimps killing other chimps. We havn't seen highly elevated territorial disputes. If I had to guess, I wouldn't expect to see it. C. Sanz

    I have never seen this kind of killing in Thai forest. This violence is not always present. C. Boesch "
  • MikemikeMike

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    Oct 15, 2007 8:39 PM GMT
    Ypof- Why does the agression strike you as not normal for primates that resemble us the most? Outside her studies I have seen chimps eat young baboons and eat other troops young from chimpanzee's from other troops. Even though it is not their normal behavior the fact that it exists is interesting. Greg instead of having a bleed why not add your thoughts if any?
  • DiverScience

    Posts: 1426

    Oct 15, 2007 8:45 PM GMT
    Dolphins will also kill each other.

    Males of many species will achieve dominance of a family group by killing the old alpha male, and often all his recent offspring as well.
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    Oct 15, 2007 8:55 PM GMT
    yup true enough, Male bottlenose dolphins have been documented to practice Infanticide, killing the offspring of other males.
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    Oct 20, 2007 3:51 AM GMT
    Well* Boothe killing for our survive.. The bud thing is that human have many other options to go on without be murder even to other people or metaphoric, to environment etc.. but animals don't have much options.. "Brain* Good to have it and know when and how to use it, gad if you don't"..
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    Nov 16, 2007 3:33 PM GMT
    Depends, really, on the animal... is a case per case thing, not a general trend.
    certain animals do fight to death or could end a fight with serious damages impossible to completely heal (wich leads to death, obviously)
    there is no mercy doing things by "nature" and the world of the animal is a harsher then our...
    For example is a normal practice to among the dominant lion male to kill and eat lion babies in order to make the lioness ready to mate with him in a few weeks.
    another animal extremly brutal is the hyena, for example, while the tiger is almost an heremit by nature and seldom engage in fights with its own...
    what about nicy cutie thompson gazelles? they fight during the mating period to the point of death in certain cases...
    btw it's like to compare beans with posickles... there are so much different species with different behaviours and to compare them to us is useless, since there are obvious differences with us (like motivation animals have and we don't)
    if you were talking about wars, that's another thing too.
    no animals have such a complex social sorrounding as we have (maybe some kind of ants have... lol) so is pointless to compare such a simple contest with our.
    there is the rule of survival and that's mandatory for every animal. you lose, you die, no mercy. you get sick you die, no mercy again.
    we cure our sick people, animals kill them or abandon them to their destiny. we keep our old people, animals leave them because they are useless.

    the difference between US and animals is also we use and create objects (and of a refined type too) so again is pretty useless to compare with animal because they don't have weapons as we have.
    :p

    ah ethology is such a nice thing though... it make you think that we have, even if in a small percentage, something that animal doesn't have in any way: mercy.
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    Dec 01, 2007 10:25 AM GMT
    In my opinion, people don't kill other people; people kill THINGS. In order for a person to kill another person they have had to go through some kind of process of 'dehumanising' the other.
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    Dec 01, 2007 11:37 AM GMT
    Animals kill each other as a matter of routine, even within the same species. It's everywhere around us. palicao made this point fairly eloquently.

    Be it the newborns so the strongest can live.
    Be it the mate (spiders) so that the species can progress.
    Be it survival of the fittest when food is in the short supply.
    Be it for the easy death / natural selection of a defective newborn (pushed away from food).
    Be it to save food (there are only so many tits to go around).
    Be it for the evolution of the species.

    Death is everywhere in the animal kingdom.

    I don't think you engaged in any critical thinking before posting this topic.

    It is what it is. Comparing the food chain, natural selection, and species survival mechanisms to murder are a number of different things.

    Just a few years back, fat folks would have died even much earlier than today. Through medicine (arguably "unnatural" for those who like to toot about being "natural") fat folks are allowed to live much longer than even 20 years ago. Same with any of a number of conditions. As recently as World War II times, a bacterial infection could have meant almost certain death. Today, that's a rarity, thanks to the "unnatural" medicine.

    In humans, natural selection has been almost eliminated. The weak survive. The diseased survive. The self-destructive survive. The evil survive. The species adapts much less quickly. In fact, some environments are now to germ-free and the species is actually becoming weaker in regard to immunology.

    In the wild, however, most of these processes remain as they've been for the millenniums. Any assumption that premature death is not part of that is incorrect.

    Insects and crocodiles will likely remain after we are long gone. Their adaptation and survival mechanisms, and sheer numbers are as they've been forever.

    Being self-aware is not a rule to go by here, either. Many species have some degree of cognizance, yet have practices that might seem cruel but that insure the survival of the species.
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    Dec 02, 2007 7:02 PM GMT
    L. mactans female spider has know to eat the male after mating.
    Kangaroos, Gulls, Langurs , Baboons, bottle-nosed dolphins, Butterflies, Lions, African hunting dogs, Belding's ground squirrels, Rats, lemmings, hamsters, mice, voles, muskrats, gerbils, prairie dogs and marmots are all know to kill their own specie.
  • joeindallas

    Posts: 484

    Apr 08, 2008 9:32 PM GMT
    when an animal kills another of its species it is over an item they view as Important, food territory, ability to procreate and pass one your genetic make up. reasons that Humans kill each other are trivial in relationship to why other species kill their own
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    Apr 08, 2008 9:46 PM GMT
    With the weapons we can shoot someone from distance which doesn't allow the oponent to show he's weak, and thus make a human capable to kill another human.
    That's why humans can kill eachother and animals won't
    .


    The Bayonet and pugil stick are still an important part of basic training.
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    Apr 09, 2008 10:57 AM GMT
    Most animals don't wage 'wars'.

    Social insects and primates are some of the exceptions.

    Ants for example engage in elaborate slave-hunting raids (yes, ants have slaves)/nest takeovers.

    Mating/territorial battles are also another arena in which animals kill each other. These battles (aside from courtship rituals/female choosing/etc) actually play a very important part in evolution.

    It's how secondary sexual characteristics have come to be. For example, elks with larger antlers have better chances of winning battles therefore they mate with more females, ensuring the genes for bigger antlers gets passed on more.

    Male spiders mate with more females if they learn the values of the skedaddle after sex and be quicker/smaller.

    Lions who defeat pride leaders ensure they pass on good genes on the harem they then acquire.

    Besides, battles decide which has the best genes which does the species good on the whole.

    Point is, they kill each other too, just not as gratuitously as humans. icon_razz.gif They kill each other for survival.

    And BTW, animals don't have religions... *hint hint*
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    Apr 09, 2008 11:04 AM GMT
    I myself have no doubt that Caslon is in grave danger from his cat.
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    Apr 09, 2008 11:50 AM GMT
    Ethel will kill jp for his money too hm... (Have I got the beagles right? LOL)
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    Apr 10, 2008 7:59 AM GMT
    DiverScience saidDolphins will also kill each other.

    Males of many species will achieve dominance of a family group by killing the old alpha male, and often all his recent offspring as well.


    Actually animals kill each other all the time that is the order of the world... if you will, "every thing that eats in time will it's self be eaten." That includes plants and men. And they do kill their own kind, it common among pack animals wolfs lions chimps that have a hierarchical structure that when the dominate member is deposed sometime in a battle to the death that the new dominate member will kill and frequently devour the immature offspring of the former dominate and drive off the rest...

    If you meant why does man commit murder and war on his brother personal gain or mass greed and animals don't? The truth is that chimps have been observed to murder rivals and wage war on neighboring band killing and take captives as slaves and they are just as brutal about it as humans... the battles fought by colonies of ants and termites make the atrocities committed by humans and other primate pale in comparison...

    The World and most likely the whole Universe is not a very nice or safe place for anyone...

    The one thing that humans do that animals don't is that Man will on occasion forgive an enemy

    Bean

    Sorry Bean, I don't know how to quote more than one thread.

    Yes, Animals do kill each other. Lots actualy and they don't ever forget an enemy. Males will kill each other for mating purposes, and kill the young of rival males. They will even go as far as to kill a female on some very rare ocasions.
    As to what you are actualy impieng I could not gather from your thread but the fact is that nature is cruel and we are, as humans, (whether we like it or not)a part of nature.
    And despite the huge differences between ourselves and our furry, scaly, or feathery friends, we can not ever exclude our primitive pre excistance from who we are now.
    We still react on hormones and still relly on nature to guide us. Look for example at a baby sucking on his mother's breast for the first time. He is not guided, he instinctively knows where his vital source of food is. Just like this. (And I know this might sound increadibly crude and uncivilised.) Nature sometimes uses even the human element so carry out some essensial culling duties.
    It might not be for common logical purposes but it could never be exempted from nature itself.
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    Apr 10, 2008 8:08 AM GMT
    WOW. Hate to break it you buddy but animals do kill one another and sometimes over the simplest of things too....just like humans do.
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    Apr 10, 2008 11:44 AM GMT
    Guy101 saidWOW. Hate to break it you buddy but animals do kill one another and sometimes over the simplest of things too....just like humans do.


    I'd wager... never for hate though. icon_razz.gif