Florist Refusal to Sell to Gays Because of God Ruled Discriminatory

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 17, 2017 4:00 AM GMT
    NYT: The Supreme Court in Washington State deemed a florist could not claim religious belief as a defense for refusing to sell flowers for a same-sex wedding under the state’s anti-discrimination laws.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/us/florist-discrimination-gay-couple-washington-court.html
  • bro4bro

    Posts: 1721

    Feb 17, 2017 8:22 PM GMT
    In the old days, people found out which businesses were gay-owned or gay-friendly and the entire community would take their business there. Seriously, how hard can it be to find a gay-friendly florist?

    If a business was determined to be unfriendly to gays, the community would boycott it.

    Now, it seems the gay community is preferentially patronizing businesses that are unfriendly to gays, to prove some sort of point.

    What's wrong with this picture?
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    Feb 18, 2017 7:20 AM GMT
    bro4bro saidIn the old days, people found out which businesses were gay-owned or gay-friendly and the entire community would take their business there. What's wrong with this picture?


    Why should gay people have to tip-toe around bigots? It's our right (not just a privilege) to be treated fairly and with respect. We will be 2nd class citizens only till we allow it.
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    Feb 18, 2017 6:23 PM GMT
    bro4bro saidIn the old days, people found out which businesses were gay-owned or gay-friendly and the entire community would take their business there. Seriously, how hard can it be to find a gay-friendly florist?

    If a business was determined to be unfriendly to gays, the community would boycott it.

    Now, it seems the gay community is preferentially patronizing businesses that are unfriendly to gays, to prove some sort of point.

    What's wrong with this picture?



    As usual, you support homophobia. Intentionally going to unfriendly businesses simply exposes their prejudice faster and let's everyone know their attitudes concerning gay people.
  • bro4bro

    Posts: 1721

    Feb 18, 2017 7:11 PM GMT
    It also puts money in their pockets.

    "As usual", I support homophobia? What the fuck does that mean?

    I don't advocate tiptoeing around anybody. I'll walk right past them with my middle finger in the air and patronize someone who appreciates my business.
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    Feb 18, 2017 7:57 PM GMT
    bro4bro saidIt also puts money in their pockets.

    "As usual", I support homophobia? What the fuck does that mean?

    I don't advocate tiptoeing around anybody. I'll walk right past them with my middle finger in the air and patronize someone who appreciates my business.



    Maybe I have you confused with another smooth torso. It's hard to keep you guys straight. My apologies.
  • Cutlass

    Posts: 447

    Feb 19, 2017 12:32 AM GMT
    Civil rights are civil rights. If the florist can't provide flowers for a gay wedding, she should stop doing weddings; that way she could continue her business and not go against her religious convictions.
  • bro4bro

    Posts: 1721

    Feb 19, 2017 7:20 PM GMT
    Am I the only one who notices that virtually all of the people who refuse to serve gays due to "religious" convictions are women?

    What's that all about?

    Can't handle a little competition?
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    Feb 19, 2017 7:32 PM GMT
    Art_Nouveau said
    Yet one can see a democrat florist refusing to provide flowers for a Republican Convention. Because of there [sic] political conviction.
    No diffrent to designers refusing to dress Mrs Trump.
    But we didn't see the left getting all bent out of shape with that.

    First of all, do you know of a case, from there in Australia, of a "democrat" florist refusing to provide flowers for a Republican convention?

    As for high-end clothing designers, are they US companies? Do they operate under our Federal and State public accommodation laws?

    That was the issue in Washington State with this particular florist. Someone who operates a licensed & regulated public shop in that State.
  • MuchoMasQueMu...

    Posts: 910

    Feb 19, 2017 7:47 PM GMT
    Art_Nouveau saidI'd simply go somewhere else.
    Although I've never experienced such a thing.
    Thus not really sure how'd I'd react.
    But I'm not really into drama, or playing the gay victim card.


    I would go somewhere else also. If a person running a business, or any of his employees, demonstrate prejudice, bigotry or bias against me I don't want to patronize that business. I'd much rather boycott people who discriminate against who I am than support them by giving them my money. But I'll be sure to spread the word of mouth in their disfavor and share my negative experience.
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    Feb 19, 2017 7:53 PM GMT
    bro4bro saidIt also puts money in their pockets.

    "As usual", I support homophobia? What the fuck does that mean?

    I don't advocate tiptoeing around anybody. I'll walk right past them with my middle finger in the air and patronize someone who appreciates my business.


    So would I. However, it is good that the business was fined. A $1,000 fine isn't going to put anyone out of business, but it may, as the law intended, get the word out that this kind of discrimination is illegal. The next florist, or caterer, pizza parlor, or motel operator, is much less likely to discriminate.
  • mybud

    Posts: 13504

    Feb 20, 2017 1:44 AM GMT
    Art_Nouveau said
    NOLAman1977 saidI wonder what the reaction would be if it was a gay florist refusing to supply flowers for a fundamentalist Christian wedding... say at the Westboro Baptist Church. Hummmmm...

    Or a republican conversation.
    Or a pleather hat maker...
  • mybud

    Posts: 13504

    Feb 20, 2017 3:12 AM GMT
    NOLAman1977 said
    mybud said
    Art_Nouveau said
    NOLAman1977 saidI wonder what the reaction would be if it was a gay florist refusing to supply flowers for a fundamentalist Christian wedding... say at the Westboro Baptist Church. Hummmmm...

    Or a republican conversation.
    Or a pleather hat maker...


    You spend too much time with special needs children. I bet you went into special ed so you could feel smart.
    DUHHHH WAT U SAY MY LIL TWAT?
  • barefootlover

    Posts: 381

    Feb 20, 2017 4:06 PM GMT
    I actually do not agree with this. If I run a bakery shop, I should not have to provide any cakes that are anti gay. Yes, I have to serve everyone, but I should not have to make any cakes with anti gay messages. If a baker was refusing people just because they are gay, that would be wrong, like they won't even sell a loaf of bread to a gay person. Then that is discrimination. But if there is a certain type of service or certain messages they don't want to provide in their bakery, that should be the right of the business owner.
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    Feb 20, 2017 6:35 PM GMT
    barefootlover saidI actually do not agree with this. If I run a bakery shop, I should not have to provide any cakes that are anti gay. Yes, I have to serve everyone, but I should not have to make any cakes with anti gay messages. If a baker was refusing people just because they are gay, that would be wrong, like they won't even sell a loaf of bread to a gay person. Then that is discrimination. But if there is a certain type of service or certain messages they don't want to provide in their bakery, that should be the right of the business owner.


    I think if the content of a message being furnished were at issue, the state would not have a case, under freedom of speech grounds. It was not that the florist refused to provide any written message with the flowers that got him/her in trouble with the law, but that he/she simply refused to proved the same service they do for others - that is floral pieces. In some states, like California, it is even illegal for a commercial business to discriminate against anyone for any non-commercial (e.g., not No Shirt No Service rules) reason - not just discrimination on the basis of sex/race/religion/sexual orientation, etc. For example, a restaurant cannot refuse to serve someone because they are blond.
  • barefootlover

    Posts: 381

    Feb 22, 2017 5:03 PM GMT
    Puppenjunge said
    barefootlover saidI actually do not agree with this. If I run a bakery shop, I should not have to provide any cakes that are anti gay. Yes, I have to serve everyone, but I should not have to make any cakes with anti gay messages. If a baker was refusing people just because they are gay, that would be wrong, like they won't even sell a loaf of bread to a gay person. Then that is discrimination. But if there is a certain type of service or certain messages they don't want to provide in their bakery, that should be the right of the business owner.


    I think if the content of a message being furnished were at issue, the state would not have a case, under freedom of speech grounds. It was not that the florist refused to provide any written message with the flowers that got him/her in trouble with the law, but that he/she simply refused to proved the same service they do for others - that is floral pieces. In some states, like California, it is even illegal for a commercial business to discriminate against anyone for any non-commercial (e.g., not No Shirt No Service rules) reason - not just discrimination on the basis of sex/race/religion/sexual orientation, etc. For example, a restaurant cannot refuse to serve someone because they are blond.


    But, if a restaurant doesn't want to serve pizza, , they should not have to serve it because someone says the restaurant is discriminating against people who like pizza. They aren't discriminating against people who like pizza. They just don't want to provide that particular food. They have nothing against people who want to eat pizza. They just don't want to serve it in their restaurant. The same is true with gay marriage. If someone does not want to serve that kind of marriage, they should not have to. Now, if they refused to provide any flowers (i.e Mother' Day) just because they are gay, that would be discrimination. But, if they have chosen not to provide services for gay weddings, that's should be the business's choice, just like a photographer may not want to take any pictures of gays that are pornographic. Nobody should be forced to provide a service, if they don't want to. They are objecting to serving a gay wedding, not gays themselves. They would gladly sell any gay flowers for a birthday or Mother's Day, Valentines, but they don't want to serve a gay wedding. Then that is not discrimination. They are just choosing not to provide a particular service like a gay wedding, just like a restaurant may choose not to serve pizza.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 4926

    Mar 18, 2017 5:30 PM GMT
    100% agree with you on that, but less so here:

    NOLAman1977 saidTo the people who say we should just take our business elsewhere, would that have been your answer to the colored people of the civil rights movement?

    The difference is that discrimination half a century ago was institutionalized and omni-present. Not that it would have been right, but had it only been a cantankerous old fart here and some bitchy lady there who denied service to blacks the Civil Rights movement would have looked different.

    When 99% of florists are gay-friendly, how does someone even find that 1 who isn't?
    Did they walk into every floral shop until they found one that said "no" and then decided to order there?

    I agree with bro4bro. Just boycott that business. Tell friends and have them tell their friends, no need to even go public (that will only get the other religious nuts to then support them and countermand the boycott as they get business they wouldn't otherwise). With some luck they'll go out of business (and then you can gloat it was because they were anti-gay), but even if not they'll take a financial hit (and be less able to contribute to their anti-gay causes).
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 18, 2017 7:26 PM GMT
    Not being one to play the gay victim card. Or making drama.
    I'd leave them with their religion, and go elsewhere.
    Albeit, it would become a dinner table conversation.
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    Mar 18, 2017 9:29 PM GMT
    barefootlover said
    They would gladly sell any gay flowers for a birthday or Mother's Day, Valentines, but they don't want to serve a gay wedding. Then that is not discrimination. They are just choosing not to provide a particular service like a gay wedding, just like a restaurant may choose not to serve pizza.

    A totally fallacious argument. Fact is the florist does serve STRAIGHT weddings. Your "no pizza served at all" argument might work if the florist served no weddings at all.

    Other facts: the gay couple had been buying from this florist for years. Also, Richland, Washington isn't exactly a large metropolis, and includes rural areas. (I lived in Washington 5 years) It's not clear if they had a better boycott alternative from which they wanted to buy.

    But in any case, as an American who values equal treatment as guaranteed to me by the law, I'm not sure I would have let this florist get off so easily, either. Not as some in this post are suggesting we should do.

    Sure, gay guys, just run away with your tails between your legs. Well, I'm glad this gay couple didn't do that, but fought back, standing up for all of us. For our rights and our principles of equality. Congratulations!
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    Mar 18, 2017 10:58 PM GMT
    Dear half brother. One would not run with ones tail between ones legs.
    One simply would not get ones jocks in a knot.
    Also unlike you dearest half brother.
    One was out during harder times.
    When homosexuality was illegal.
    On the mental health list.
    Yet I was to stand and make a diffrence.
    Since you older than me.
    What difference did you make way back when?
    I had the balls to also stand for gay rights before my teens, and never steeped down, no matter what they did to me.
    I did this during a time in the late 60's early 70's. When a guy would get beat up, just for wearing white socks.
    Because only a poofter would do that.
    So half brother. Please get off your self serving high horse.
    Since you did absolutely nothing way back when, to make a diffrence.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 4926

    Mar 19, 2017 3:25 AM GMT
    Thanks for this info, it adds light to the story:

    art_deco saidOther facts: the gay couple had been buying from this florist for years. Also, Richland, Washington isn't exactly a large metropolis, and includes rural areas. (I lived in Washington 5 years) It's not clear if they had a better boycott alternative from which they wanted to buy.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 4926

    Mar 19, 2017 2:33 PM GMT
    That was in reference to my pondering:

    When 99% of florists are gay-friendly, how does someone even find that 1 who isn't?
    Did they walk into every floral shop until they found one that said "no" and then decided to order there?
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    Mar 19, 2017 3:27 PM GMT
    mwolverine said
    Thanks for this info, it adds light to the story:

    art_deco saidOther facts: the gay couple had been buying from this florist for years. Also, Richland, Washington isn't exactly a large metropolis, and includes rural areas. (I lived in Washington 5 years) It's not clear if they had a better boycott alternative from which they wanted to buy.

    You're welcome. Yes, in reference to your subsequent reply to NOLA, I included that additional bit of background information to address the issue about boycotting, and taking one's business elsewhere. Several other RJ members raised the issue, as well.

    Here's a picture at home of the gay couple that brought the lawsuit. I think you get the sense that they don't live in downtown Richland. The city is large enough that it must have other florists, but I can't imagine the choice can be very large, or possibly convenient.

    CxjPWPbXUAQPGHv.jpg
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 20587

    Mar 19, 2017 4:27 PM GMT
    As a matter of principle, I would not want something as special as my wedding cake made by people who had negative feelings toward me or my wedding. While I do not condone this kind of discrimination whatsoever, I wouldn't want this anti-gay baker making my wedding cake in the first place and would take my business to another baker who would gladly do it and thereby put positive energy into creating my wedding cake, not negativity.
  • FRANKHOMESTEA...

    Posts: 123

    Mar 19, 2017 6:20 PM GMT
    And half of society is on the other track ,I like knowing who hates my guts so I can do unto them as they did unto me.