Tel Aviv tips

  • Rooo1016

    Posts: 27

    Jun 04, 2017 11:59 AM GMT
    Hey guys,

    Was thinking of visiting Tel Aviv, as it's been on my mind for a while. Are there any tips that you could provide, like when is the best time to visit, any special events that one should not miss, where to stay, what to do, etc. etc.??

    I would greatly appreciate any help icon_biggrin.gif
    Thanks xoxo
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 05, 2017 5:27 AM GMT
    Depends what you want to see, and how much time you can stay:
    History/archaeology, religious spots, beaches, diving, hiking, art, shopping, gay life....

    As for upcoming events:

    Tel Aviv's 2017 LGBT Pride Week to celebrate 'Bisexual Visibility'
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4309900
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 05, 2017 6:08 AM GMT
    <- From a Palestinian experience.

    I have been to the Block Club if you're into electronic music and good quality drink. Check out Dan Hotel or Hilton Tel Aviv, their prices might be good deal. If you want to do some exercises check out the Charles Clore Park. It has some trail that you can run around by the beach. Also you can see some old beautiful houses that used to owned by Palestinians. Check out Jaffa and Akko too. If you ever want to visit Palestinian territories, check out Ramallah and Bethlehem.

    The events can change, I would look up or google it find out more... I hope I am being helpful.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 05, 2017 2:19 PM GMT
    I want to visit Israel+Palestine too as getting the visa for Israel is not that difficult. I would probably end up visiting Georgia and Jordan before that anyway because you can get a visa online for Georgia and Jordan allows for an on-arrival visa.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 05, 2017 6:33 PM GMT
    Leave it to SpamSam to politicize a travel thread.
    As he and his ilk have threads about the Olympics and Hummus.

    Sam27 said<- From a Palestinian experience.

    Charles Clore Park. It has some trail that you can run around by the beach. Also you can see some old beautiful houses that used to owned by Palestinians.


    Edit: adding a picture of Charles Clore Park - which has no houses at all:
    64217675.jpg

    Tel Aviv beach:
    Gay-Tel-Aviv-Guide-2017.jpg

    A photo of that area from 1909:
    founding-tel-aviv.jpg

    Where are the "old beautiful houses that used to owned by Palestinians"?!


    A neighboring Arab (not yet known as "Palestinian") village in 1911:
    pic115b-m.jpg

    "Palestine" is the Greek/Latin-European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland
    and early 20th century Arab denials of the existence of "Palestine".

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/349491

    Arabs (like Arabic) NOT indigenous to Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4019405

    The Palestine Paradox
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2652202


    They can only preach hate, but never reach for a solution:

    Yalla, Peace!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1285693

    Let's talk peace: The two-state solution
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4180210

    Their aim isn't peace let alone mutual coexistence but to "punish" the Jews, for the Jews to "get out", for terrorism and war until they "win" and at any cost. And when their aggression fails, they play the victim card because they are the weaker party. Maybe they should stop their violence and terrorism and finally give peace a chance? Or do they hate the Jews more than they care about themselves?
  • Rooo1016

    Posts: 27

    Jun 05, 2017 7:07 PM GMT
    Thank you guys for these tips... I was thinking about September or October to be honest. How would the weather be around those times? Do you think it would be a good idea to visit the Dead Sea also?

    I've searched online and found that the Rosh Hashanah around that time, so maybe the week after would be ok perhaps?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 05, 2017 7:49 PM GMT
    Rosh Hashana (Jewish new year) begins at sundown on Sep 20th and ends on the 22nd.
    A week later (Sep 29/30) is Yom Kippur. The country shuts down on that day. Even private cars.
    So earlier in September or October may be better choices, unless you want to get a taste of these holidays.

    September is still pretty warm, but the beginning of the rainy season. Which means that - unlike from May-Aug, there is a possibility of rain. Moreso in the north, Jerusalem and coastal areas, unlikely at the Dead Sea or further south.

    The Dead Sea itself is a popular spot with retirees seeking salt and mud baths, but otherwise splashing around (well, don't splash lest it get in your eyes, "it burns!") for an hour is enough. If you like hiking, two of my favorite spots are around the middle, near Ein Gedi.

    Nahal David:
    801214c76ca967008a397ca9fcb2bd5e.jpg

    I think that peak is Mt Yishai. I climbed that a long time ago, too, but just going up and down the wadi (canyon) is more than enough.

    Nahal Arugot:
    Nahal_arugot.jpg

    The view back to the Dead Sea:
    Nahal-david-dead-sea.jpg

    There is also an ancient synagogue there:
    Midbar+Yehudah+031.jpg

    A little bit south of there, about half-way to the fancy hotels at Ein Bokek, is Metzada (Masada).
    This was Herod's fortress and the last stand of the Jews against the Romans (other than later revolts).
    B-29Kj9W8AAygUw.jpg

    You could go from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, continue down to Ein Gedi, Metzada and Ein Bokek, and from there head south, through the lunar-like landscape of the Arava desert, to Eilat on the Red Sea:

    3-%D0%AD%D0%B9%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%82.-%D0%A4

    c4c8295c5010b1b31d048948f7a58fa1.jpg

    Then head northwest through the Negev desert, past the Makhtesh Ramon "crater":
    Mizpe-Ramon-by-Nir-Nussbaum-on-Flickr.jp
  • Tawrich

    Posts: 127

    Jun 06, 2017 2:24 AM GMT
    JTheM saidHow did Sam "politicize" the thread?

    Israel is full of homes Palestinians used to own and live in [before they were stolen and given to Jewish immigrants in 1948]. Israeli tour guides gloss over them, and when asked, tend to refer to them vaguely as "khirbat al-shaykh" - a deliberately imprecise reference to an Arab house from an unspecified period ["khirba" in Arabic means "ruin"].

    What they certainly do not say is "oh, this is a remnant of an event 69 years ago called the Nakba, back when Palestinians were the majority and we had to ethnically cleanse 90% of them from the area that would become Israel to create a Jewish state."


    How did you get to ethnic cleansing? If it was ethnic cleansing they did a shitty job. If you look at the facts the same number of native Jews were displaced from future Palestinian lands. The only difference was the Jews banded together to build a nation while the rest of the Arab world preyed on the remains of the Palestinian state. There's a reason why Jordan claims ownership of the West Bank.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 06, 2017 3:43 AM GMT
    You are 100% correct, Tawrich, other than that Jordan in 1988 - more than 20 years after the 1967 war! - rescinded its claim to its former so-called "West Bank" of 19 years - territories known for literally thousands of years as Judea & Samaria.

    But please, don't take the troll's bait. They are just seeking to hijack this thread and dump their spam propaganda lies here, where they haven't already been refuted. Trolls can never discuss a topic in its thread!

    All that history, including the fact that the majority of Arab refugees fled the Arab-initiated war without ever seeing a Jewish/Israeli soldier to "force", "expel" or "ethnically cleanse" them - and even that the local Arabs frequently feared Arab forces more than they feared their "enemy" the Jews, is documented in this thread:

    1947-1948: Arabs Reject Compromise And Attack Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/960691

    Jerusalem
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/887747

    So poor was Israel's "ethnic cleansing" that 70 years later Arabs comprise more than 20% of the population.
    And they are full citizens with equal protection under the law.
    They vote, form political parties, serve in the Knesset (parliament) - including as government ministers.
    They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassadors.
    They serve in the judiciary, including on the High (supreme) Court.
    They even serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, achieving ranks as high as major general.
    (Including commanders of the Border Patrol and the Home Front Command.)

    Israel Is A Secular, Democratic, State (Gay Friendly, Too)
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/3977469

    Again, all of that can be (and has been) discussed in those threads.
    The trolls seek to infect others here with their hate by spamming their bile.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 06, 2017 3:50 AM GMT
    We now go back to this thread.

    Suddenly I see the logic of the Dead Sea mud baths....
    Gay_Israel_Tour.jpg

    Or just lounging at Tel Aviv beach:
    gaydisbody1.jpg

    Hilton-Gay-Beach-1-e1432806621232.jpg

    picture.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 06, 2017 5:05 AM GMT
    How am I "politicize" this thread? It is undeniable that Israel is home to Palestinian people too. I can tell you the ugly truth about Tel Aviv if you want me to, but I wasn't in my previous post. If I see one more anti-Palestinian post from mwoverine, I will spread the ugly truth about Tel Aviv that you guys may not want to go there.

    Anytime Rooo1016, I hope my post was helpful.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 06, 2017 7:48 AM GMT
    Let a travel thread be a sweet travel thread and let Tel Aviv exist sweetly in my mental images. And yes, Sam wasn't politicising the thread.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 07, 2017 5:16 AM GMT
    What did I tell you? Trolls can never discuss a thread in its topic.
    They incessantly try to spread their lies across other threads, seeking to infest others with their endless hate.
    Or maybe they just crave attention, forever bored in their mum's basement.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 07, 2017 5:27 AM GMT
    Inside Tel Aviv, which is the subject of this thread:

    Check out Shuk HaCarmel (Carmel Market). It's like a farmers' market and a flea market in one.
    fbd2ca964ad0d77078423c19dd45a843.jpg

    carmelshuk1.jpg

    For a more modern and avant-garde shopping, try Sheinkin St.
    fruits-juices-stall-sheinkin-street-tel-

    If you're looking for something more arts & crafts, Nahlat Binyamin:
    kermitsingsnahalatbinyamin-300x225.jpg

    Architecture? Neve Tzedek:
    neve7.jpg

    Along (and off) Rothschild Blvd:
    Tour_of_Tel_Aviv_Bauhaus_Architecture3.j
    The Pagoda House looks modern, but dates back to the 1920s.

    Bauhaus-Architecture-Tel-Aviv-2.jpg

    Yeah, it gets crazy:
    DSC01904.jpg

    article-1219936-0704B68F000005DC-660_468

    7efcbfdc85166b4652e93d8ea98f82d9.jpg
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 09, 2017 5:17 AM GMT
    See also:

    Tel Aviv's 2017 LGBT Pride Week to celebrate 'Bisexual Visibility'
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4309900
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 10, 2017 5:55 AM GMT
    What did I tell you? Trolls can never discuss a thread in its topic.
    They incessantly try to spread their lies across other threads, seeking to infest others with their endless hate.
    Or maybe they just crave attention, forever bored in their mum's basement.

    Above I included a picture of an ancient synagogue in Ein Gedi.
    Did the British similarly have thousands of years of archaeology in India?
    Analogy fail.

    Where is the "Palestinian" archaeology?! Or history?!
    Why is there no mention of them by the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks or Romans?
    Oh, right. The Arab invasion, conquest, occupation and colonization came later.

    It's quite funny: a few years back, cornered on just that question, Sam opined that Jewish icons like Tzippori and Masada were "Palestinian". Because, he claimed, Palestinian Arabs were Jews who converted to Christianity or Islam. Other than anecdotally, the genetic evidence rejects that. How bizarre that the Jewish descendants of the Jews are pitched as "colonists" while Arabs are promoted as descendants.

    Consider further the craziness: Jews who converted to Christianity or Islam can be an ethnic group, but Jews who retained the tribal religion are just a religious group, not an ethnic group entitled to self-determination in their own homeland?!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 10, 2017 5:59 AM GMT
    If archaeological art such as the tile floor in the ancient synagogue at Ein Gedi interest you, then another stop should be Tzippori:

    7723507316_9269b0bd09_b.jpg

    3637106090_4719ba8004.jpg
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 11, 2017 3:51 AM GMT
    There he goes again. It's pathological!

    Where is the "Palestinian" archaeology?! Or history?!
    Why is there no mention of them by the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks or Romans?
    Oh, right. The Arab invasion, conquest, occupation and colonization came later.


    AyaTrolLiar> There is plenty of historical Palestinian ARAB art, architecture, battlefields etc

    Yes, dating back to the ARAB CONQUEST of the 7th century CE.
    None of it was identified as "Palestinian" prior to the latter half of the 20th century.
    It was Arab, and there was no distinction between this area and Lebanon, Syria or Trans-Jordan.

    Indeed, it wasn't even uniform within the area. Arabs in what today is northern Israel were closer to Arabs in Lebanon than to Arabs in southern Israel, who were closer to Egyptians (many of them were Egyptians and even Sudanese) and to Arabs in eastern Israel, who were closer to Arabs in Trans-Jordan (from which many had arrived). Maybe I'll post a thread about the differences in housing/architecture, pottery, and dress/costume in different areas.


    AyaTrolLiar> the Arabs long predate the presence of Jews in Palestine.

    ROTFL. Jews have lived on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3,300 years.

    The archaeological and non-Biblical history says the Israelite confederation was formed from local Canaanite tribes (e.g. Asher) and regional migratory tribes (e.g. the Shasu), meaning the ancestors of the Jew lived there for millennia before that.

    There is evidence of Arab infiltration into Trans-Jordan and the southern periphery some 2,000 years ago (that's about 1,500 years later) and into Israel (say north of Be'er Sheva) only in the 7th century CE... with the Arab conquest.


    AyaTrolLiar> the vast majority of locations in Israel today have 20th Century Hebrew names, with no designation going back historically other than in Arabic

    Only two cities had Arabic names (Ramla and Ramallah), many others being Arabic mispronunciation of older names.

    For example, the propagandists argue that modern Nahalal (founded in 1921) replaced Ma'lul (they even misquote Moshe Dayan to "prove" this, and contradictingly also count it as a village that was "ethnically cleansed" in 1948 ). Yet it was already known as Mahlul in Roman (pre-Arab) times. The Jerusalem Talmud tells us that "Nahalal is Mahalul".

    Yet uneducated imbeciles and flunkies posit that Mahlul is Arabic. icon_rolleyes.gif

    It's the usual reversal of the scientific method. Deriving the "data" from their "model" - nothing more than their preconceived, biased, notions. What they want to believe and no more than a circular argument (which is why the idiots are so sure of themselves and immune to actual facts that challenge them).


    AyaTrolLiar> "Tel Aviv", "Nahal Arugot", "Mount Yishai", etc. are just the product of some naming committee

    Tel Aviv was founded on sand dunes in 1909 (picture above).
    Mt Yishai is one peak, no one lives there. I don't know when it was named.

    Jews revolting against the Romans 1800 years ago found refuge in caves near Nahal Arugot.
    How come the "Palestinians" never interacted with the Romans? Oh, right, they weren't yet there.

    Ein Gedi had a Synagogue (pictured above) and its Hebrew name long before the Arab conquest.


    AyaTrolLiar> One could just as blithely claim that "Christians" have ancient history

    There's that patented idiocy again.
    Jews are an ethnic group - unlike Christians and Muslims.
    Similar to Druze and Armenians.

    How bizarre that the Jewish descendants of the Jews are pitched as "colonists" while Arabs are promoted as descendants.

    AyaTrolLiar> [flees]


    Jews who allegedly converted to Christianity or Islam are an ethnic group, but Jews who retained the tribal religion are just a religious group, not an ethnic group entitled to self-determination in their own homeland?!

    AyaTrolLiar> [crawls back under his rock]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 12, 2017 4:00 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> There is plenty of historical Palestinian ARAB art, architecture, battlefields etc

    Yes, dating back to the ARAB CONQUEST of the 7th century CE.
    None of it was identified as "Palestinian" prior to the latter half of the 20th century.
    It was Arab, and there was no distinction between this area and Lebanon, Syria or Trans-Jordan.


    AyaTrolLiar> "Palestinian" as a noun goes back centuries in Arabic

    According to Sam's source, it first appeared in Arabic in 1898.

    || this represents the first instance in modern history where the term ‘Palestinian’ or ‘Filastini’ appears in Arabic.
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729?forumpage=1


    Indeed, it wasn't even uniform within the area. Arabs in what today is northern Israel were closer to Arabs in Lebanon than to Arabs in southern Israel, who were closer to Egyptians (many of them were Egyptians and even Sudanese) and to Arabs in eastern Israel, who were closer to Arabs in Trans-Jordan (from which many had arrived). Maybe I'll post a thread about the differences in housing/architecture, pottery, and dress/costume in different areas.

    AyaTrolLiar> The dialect, food etc. in Palestine has always been regionally distinct and recognized.

    Even today that's not true. With respect to dialect, different groups speak different dialects [plural!] based on their origins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Arabic

    || The Palestinian Arabic dialects are varieties of Levantine Arabic
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 12, 2017 4:03 AM GMT
    As for cuisine:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_cuisine

    || The cuisine is a diffusion of the cultures of civilizations that settled in the region of Palestine, particularly during and after the Islamic era beginning with the Arab Ummayad conquest, then the eventual Persian-influenced Abbasids and ending with the strong influences of Turkish cuisine, resulting from the coming of the Ottoman Turks. It is similar to other Levantine cuisines, including Lebanese, Syrian and Jordanian.

    || there are three regions of Palestinian food; The Galilee, which is the northern part of the State of Israel, the "West Bank" and "Gaza Strip" which are parts of land occupied by the Israelis during 1967 war from Jordan and Egypt accordingly. In the Galilee, bulgur and meat (beef or lamb) are primary ingredients that are often combined to form several variations of dishes ranging from a family-sized meal to a side dish. However, in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the populations have a cooking style of their own

    || The cuisine of the Galilee is very similar to Lebanese cuisine....

    || Mansaf is a traditional meal in the central West Bank and Naqab region in the southern West Bank, having its roots from the Bedouin population of ancient Arabia.


    The propagandists' fail with regard to cuisine is best summed up in this thread:
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4256674

    Ah, but to their superficial minds, the title sounded so good.
    If only they had bothered to read the article....
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 12, 2017 4:20 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> The Arabs in northern Palestine are Sunnis. In southern Lebanon they're Shi'a.

    He thinks Sunnis eat different food or speak differently from Shia?

    He's actually proving my point. The reality is that both are mixed.
    There are Arab Christians in northern Israel - and southern Lebanon.
    They are closer to each other than to Sunni or Shia Arabs in northern Israel or southern Lebanon.
    Just as the Druze are closer to each other than the above, regardless of which side of a 1923 border they live.
    Just as Armenians in Beirut or Jerusalem are closer to each other than to the Druze or other Arabs.


    Which takes us right back to my original questions which remain unanswered:

    Where is the "Palestinian" archaeology?! Or history?!
    Why is there no mention of them by the Persians, Greeks or Romans?
    Oh, right. The Arab invasion, conquest, occupation and colonization came later.


    We have Jewish, Arab (Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid), Crusader, Ayyubid, Mamluke and Ottoman architecture and history.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 12, 2017 4:23 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> the Arabs long predate the presence of Jews in Palestine.

    Jews have lived on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3,300 years. The archaeological and non-Biblical history says the Israelite confederation was formed from local Canaanite tribes (e.g. Asher) and regional migratory tribes (e.g. the Shasu), meaning the ancestors of the Jew lived there for millennia before that.

    AyaTrolLiar> The reality is that the ancient Hebrews originated in Mesopotamia (as the name suggests and the Bible records). While there was likely some local integration, the Hebrew influx took place about 3,100 years ago, from staging posts mostly in the east but also from Egypt

    There is zero extra-biblical evidence of this and much evidence to the contrary, as his own source Ahlstrom shows and is commonly accepted by both archaeologists and historians. (The AyaTrolLiar, with his usual idiot's bravado, quoted a half sentence out of context from Ahlstrom's book, ignoring that the sentence, paragraph, chapter and book all say the exact opposite of his attempt to twist a handful of words.)

    AyaTrolLiar> the ancestry of modern Jews, who are 56-73% genetically European, hence not native to the Middle East but White colonialists

    Ah, again the ultimate Anti-semitic argument that Jews aren't racially pure enough.
    Our resident racists seeks to rationalize his lies with his genetic fantasies which even if true (and they're not) would be irrelevant.


    AyaTrolLiar> Arabs have lived on this land for at least 4,000, possibly 7,000 years. Continuously.

    ROTFL. Did Arabs even exist 4,000 let alone 7,000 years ago?
    Never mind the Greeks and Romans, but how did the Assyrians and Babylonians interact with these Arabs?
    Where is the Arab archaeological layer in this region (other than the 7-11th centuries CE)?!


    There is evidence of Arab infiltration into Trans-Jordan and the southern periphery some 2,000 years ago (that's about 1,500 years later) and into Israel (say north of Be'er Sheva) only in the 7th century CE... with the Arab conquest.

    AyaTrolLiar> the Nabateans

    Yup, at the southern periphery.
    And emerged from the Arabian desert about 2,000 years ago.

    If he's arguing that the Palestinian Arabs descend from the Nabateans, then he's undermining himself (as someone relegated to working back through the maze often does; the starting point is irrelevant as long as it leads to the preconceived "conclusion", thus contradictory starting points - conflicting premises - are overlooked).
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 12, 2017 4:24 AM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> the vast majority of locations in Israel today have 20th Century Hebrew names, with no designation going back historically other than in Arabic

    Only two cities had Arabic names (Ramla and Ramallah), many others being Arabic mispronunciation of older names.

    AyaTrolLiar> almost every place name was Arabic apart from a few "cities"

    He really isn't very adept at logic, eh?


    For example, the propagandists argue that modern Nahalal (founded in 1921) replaced Ma'lul (they even misquote Moshe Dayan to "prove" this, and contradictingly also count it as a village that was "ethnically cleansed" in 1948 ). Yet it was already known as Mahlul in Roman (pre-Arab) times. The Jerusalem Talmud tells us that "Nahalal is Mahalul". Yet uneducated imbeciles and flunkies posit that Mahlul is Arabic. icon_rolleyes.gif

    AyaTrolLiar> [lost, can't decide which of the contradicting lies to peddle]


    Tel Aviv was founded on sand dunes in 1909 (picture above).

    AyaTrolLiar> It's a fictional name intended to sound ancient, for a city without history.

    It's amazing, one can practically hear the voices in his head.
    Tel Aviv, founded in 1909, didn't need to pretend it had a history.
    The country had plenty of that.
    The name means "hill of hope" - to revitalize the country.
    And they did.


    AyaTrolLiar> much of the forests now are made up

    ROTFL. Finally he's admitting that most of the ancient forests were gone, the land desolate, when Zionism began.
    (Israel is the only country in the world to have more trees in 2000 than in 1900.)


    Jews revolting against the Romans 1800 years ago found refuge in caves near Nahal Arugot.
    How come the "Palestinians" never interacted with the Romans? Oh, right, they weren't yet there.


    AyaTrolLiar> [incoherent babble]


    Ein Gedi had a Synagogue (pictured above) and its Hebrew name long before the Arab conquest.

    AyaTrolLiar> That "conquest" included Jews

    So? One occupier (Byzantines) was replaced with another (Arab).
    But the place name and Synagogue predate the Arab conquest.
    As is true throughout the country.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 12, 2017 4:27 AM GMT
    Jews are an ethnic group - unlike Christians and Muslims.
    Similar to Druze and Armenians.


    AyaTrolLiar> One cannot convert to an "ethnic group", only to a religion.

    As has been discussed dozens of times, Judaism doesn't have conversion.
    Jews allow for "conversion" (the closest word) to the Jewish people.
    Part of which entails adopting the tribal religion.

    That other ethnic groups don't provide for such doesn't preclude Jews from being an ethnic group.

    I think this is simple enough for a 10 year old to understand (in fact, I think even Sam gets it).
    Why is it so difficult for the Jew-hating AyaTrolLiar to reconcile and remember this?

    AyaTrolLiar> there are Black and Hispanic Jews.

    Yup, our resident racist once again reveals his racial hangups.


    Jews who allegedly converted to Christianity or Islam are an ethnic group, but Jews who retained the tribal religion are just a religious group, not an ethnic group entitled to self-determination in their own homeland?!

    AyaTrolLiar> [flees]


    How bizarre that the Jewish descendants of the Jews are pitched as "colonists" while Arabs are promoted as descendants.

    AyaTrolLiar> the former are descended mostly from Europeans

    Once again a racial hangup. By this he means that Ashkenazi Jews (a minority in Israel) may descend from 4 "European" (or other!) women that 4 Jews married some 2,000 years ago. That they were and are ethnically Jewish for 2,000 years is lost on this racist idiot. That they aren't Polish or German or Ukranian or Russian is lost, all he can see them as is not Jews but "Europeans", as if that is an ethnic group.

    AyaTrolLiar> while the latter are descended from ancient Jews

    We've repeatedly seen that the genetic evidence dispels that myth.
    It shows mutual ancestry in the Neolithic era, some 10,500 years ago.
    Precluding that these Arabs descend from Jews in the last 1,300 years.
    (Or even 3,000 years.)

    AyaTrolLiar> and other Middle Eastern tribes

    Ding ding ding. Arab tribes.

    Recall also that he admitted that up to 200,000 (of 1.2 million) Arabs in 1947 were immigrants (later switched to recent immigrants and their descendants).


    In this idiot's mind, an Arab from Yemen is perfectly at home in Jerusalem because he's "middle eastern".
    But a Jew from closer in Europe is a foreign colonist because he's a "European".
    You know, as if there are races and they "belong" on their own islands.

    Here, in a nut-shell, you see the difference between the old and new Anti-semitism.
    The old claimed that Jews were "Semites" and didn't "belong" in Europe... go back to Israel.
    The new claim that Jews are "European" and don't "belong" in Israel... go back to Europe.

    Contemplate the mixed marriage. Someone who is half Lebanese and half "European".
    Do such 50/50 genes "belong" in Europe or in the middle east?!
    Maybe neither, they have to go to something like a genetic leper colony?

    What if it's 49/51, does that change everything? Or 25/75? Or 12/88?
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 5810

    Jun 13, 2017 6:24 AM GMT
    He's getting more deranged by the post.
    Repeating a 1 letter typo (even after corrected) as an excuse not to address a point.
    After saying "Let's take the idiocy point by point" yet ignoring the majority of points.

    AyaTrolLiar> There is plenty of historical Palestinian ARAB art, architecture, battlefields etc

    1. Where is the "Palestinian" archaeology?! Or history?! Even Art?
    Why is there no mention of them by the Persians, Greeks or Romans?
    The Arab invasion, conquest, occupation and colonization came later!

    Arab art, architecture and history dates back to the ARAB CONQUEST of the 7th century CE.
    None of it was identified as "Palestinian" prior to the latter half of the 20th century.
    It was Arab, and there was no distinction between this area and Lebanon, Syria or Trans-Jordan.


    We have Jewish, Arab (Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid), Crusader, Ayyubid, Mamluke and Ottoman art, architecture and history.

    AyaTrolLiar> [but you made a 1 letter typo....]



    AyaTrolLiar> "Palestinian" as a noun goes back centuries in Arabic

    2. According to Sam's source (which, of course, the AyaTrolLiar didn't contest when Sam posted it), "Palestinian" first appeared in Arabic in modern history in 1898:

    || this represents the first instance in modern history where the term ‘Palestinian’ or ‘Filastini’ appears in Arabic.
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/4193729?forumpage=1

    AyaTrolLiar> [MIA]


    3. Arabs in what today is northern Israel were closer to Arabs in Lebanon than to Arabs in southern Israel, who were closer to Egyptians (many of them were Egyptians and even Sudanese) and to Arabs in eastern Israel, who were closer to Arabs in Trans-Jordan (from which many had arrived). Maybe I'll post a thread about the differences in housing/architecture, pottery, and dress/costume in different areas.

    AyaTrolLiar> The dialect, food etc. in Palestine has always been regionally distinct and recognized.

    Even today that's not true.

    4. With respect to dialect, different groups speak different dialects [plural!] based on their origins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Arabic

    || The Palestinian Arabic dialects are varieties of Levantine Arabic

    AyaTrolLiar> an American could easily identify my "British accent", without necessarily knowing the region.

    Or he might confuse it for Australian or South African.

    In the USA, people in Phoenix and Michigan sound similar.
    Because many left Michigan for Phoenix.
    Claiming a Michigan accent is a Phoenix dialect doesn't quite cut it.
    In a few generations, they'll mix in and grow apart.

    If the Arabs in the Land of Israel were non-Arabs who were "Arabized", their Arabic today - in such a small region - would be nearly identical.

    It is precisely because there were different waves of immigration, from different areas (speaking different dialects) that we have this amalgamation.


    AyaTrolLiar> Egyptians for example spoke an entirely distinct form of Arabic

    || Palestinian like Egyptian, typically suffixes ش [ʃ] on top of using the preverb negation /ma/

    || Palestinian also shares items with Egyptian Arabic, e.g. 'like' (prep.) is زي [zejj] in Palestinian in addition to مثل [mɪtl], as found in Syrian and Lebanese Arabic.

    As the 1911 Britannica tells us:

    || In the 19th century the short-lived Egyptian government introduced into the population an element from that country which still persists in the villages. These newcomers have not been completely assimilated with the villagers among whom they have found a home; the latter despise them, and discourage intermarriage.

    It's called endogamy and is strong in that part of the world, and was true going back a millennium (locals didn't mix with foreigners) and in the following decades. Yet the AyaTrolLiar wants people to believe that these Egyptian colonists, 4 and 8 generations later, are speaking some ancient Palestinian Arab dialect that magically has Egyptian properties.


    5. As for cuisine:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_cuisine

    || The cuisine is a diffusion of the cultures of civilizations that settled in the region of Palestine....

    || there are three regions of Palestinian food; The Galilee, which is the northern part of the State of Israel, the "West Bank" and "Gaza Strip"

    || The cuisine of the Galilee is very similar to Lebanese cuisine....

    Compare to my point 3 above.
    Ding ding ding... we have a winner!

    || ...having its roots from the Bedouin population of ancient Arabia.

    Mhhm.


    AyaTrolLiar> The Arabs in northern Palestine are Sunnis. In southern Lebanon they're Shi'a.

    He thinks Sunnis eat different food or speak differently from Shia?
    He's actually proving my point. The reality is that both are mixed.

    6. There are Arab Christians in northern Israel - and southern Lebanon.
    They are closer to each other than to Sunni or Shia Arabs in northern Israel or southern Lebanon.
    Just as the Druze are closer to each other than the above, regardless of which side of a 1923 border they live.
    Just as Armenians in Beirut or Jerusalem are closer to each other than to the Druze or other Arabs.


    AyaTrolLiar> [out to lunch]