Jesus Knew the Works of Homer: Christians and Muslims Should Know This.

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    Dec 15, 2017 5:39 PM GMT
    Hi Professor.

    Have you ever written about Christian Diocurism, maybe in Lost Christianities or maybe in your textbooks?

    Why would Jesus feel compelled to reference Castor and Pollux at Mark 3: 17? It makes me think Castor and Pollux helped him with calming winds and waves, since Jason and the Argonauts, when sailing, benefited from the twins of Zeus (although only Pollux was the son of Zeus while his twin was mortal).

    Why would Jesus feel compelled to reference a Homeric hymn? Why would Matthew and Luke drop Jesus’ reference to Homer? Would it be because Matthew, so concerned with a Jewish Jesus would have no Hellenism? I could live with that; but why would Luke drop it?

    Thank you.
    Steefen

    PS: Jesus could not read Greek? But Jesus is dropping references to Homer? As for Q source, Q source is making references to Homer? What is that about?
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    Dec 18, 2017 4:40 PM GMT
    Bart
    I don’t think Jesus knew Homer or anything about Homer. If there are any distant echoes (I”m not sure there are) it would only be because the ancient myths were widely known. But I don’t think they *were* known in rural Galilee among Aramaic speaking lower class Jews at the time.

    ChartsAndMapAstrologer - Steefen
    Maybe it's there for the benefit of the Hellenists who followed Jesus (the Hellenist mentioned in Acts, with the famous martyr, St. Stephen).

    The New Testament gives two accounts of Jewish authorities losing their minds, murderously when a person says I see the Son of Man at the right hand of the Power. Son of Man is Gaius Julius Caesar (both the original and the adopted son, Caesar Augustus). The Temple Authorities did not want Roman Emperor Worship at the Right Hand of Yahweh. That is what made them so murderously distraught. With Gaius Julius Caesar being a "son" of Venus; and, with no man of the first century or the first century BCE impregnating Venus, we have a Virgin Birth.

    With Jesus growing up near Sepphoris and making such an impact on the Hellenists in the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus would know of Homer.

    There are loud echoes of Homer in the Gospel of Mark which would be in any Q source for the gospels; Jesus' dropping a Sons of Zeus reference is just one incident.

    There are loud echoes of Julius Caesar and the "identity theft" of Julius Caesar by his adopted son who, like Jesus praying for his disciples in John's Gospel, got his disciples from his father, the original Julius Caesar. No one went to Octavius without their love for the Father sending them to the Son.
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    Dec 20, 2017 3:46 PM GMT
    A Reply

    First of all, we don’t know Jesus used that word–that’s Mark, who is a Greek speaker, possibly trying to find some Greek equivalent for something he’s read or heard about Jesus saying (probably in Aramaicz), which Jesus may never have said. The word he uses doesn’t seem to mean what he says it means.
    http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Boanerges.html#.WjfaTLBG2M8
    I do not believe Mark was referencing Castor and Pollux. I mean, why not say he was referencing Thor? He’d be about as likely to have heard about the gods of Germania. All part of the same empire.
    It’s cool to make connections between stories, but it’s important to realize that it’s you making the connection–there may not be any direct influence between two stories that seem similar to each other. People had myths relating to thunder wherever thunder was heard, because it’s awesome. Literally, awesome.
    Assuming Jesus was referencing thunder at all when he gave two of his disciples nicknames. Assuming he gave them nicknames. Which given the Peter/Rock thing, seems likely. Jesus may have been one of those people who try to cultivate relationships with people whose loyalty he wants to win by giving them cool nicknames. Still a thing today.
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    Dec 20, 2017 3:47 PM GMT
    ChartsAndMapAstrologer - Steefen

    Why not say he was referencing Thor? Thor is one person, not two brothers.
    Second, Hellenism is very important in Jesus' life because he was able to attract a following of Hellenists (one of whom, Stephen, lost his life for Jesus), see the book of Acts, chapter 6 for mention of the Hellenists.

    It is not me making the connection, the connection is there.

    The brothers in the gospel of Mark wanted to share glory with Jesus. In one gospel, they ask Jesus for a place on his left and right. In another gospel, the mother of the two brothers ask Jesus that her sons be placed on his left and right. Caligula often took his place between the divine brethren and exhibited himself there to be worshipped.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/aug/08/artsandhumanities.arts

    Julius Caesar had two brothers who sought the glory of political leadership in Rome. The father of the two brothers was Pompey the Great. Given the prestige of their father, they deserved some respect in the post-Caesar Civil War Rome. Caesar went to war against them in Spain and barely won. Like the myth of Castor and Pollux, one brother lived and one brother died. In the myth one brother has superhuman life span, the other brother his mortal. Likewise, in the gospels, Jesus grants John a superhuman lifespan, but does not do so for James.

    Luke 9: 54 James and John as sons of thunder (and lightning) ask Jesus, "Do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?"

    Clearly the gospel (which comes from a word meaning good news of military victory--likely the military victories of Gaius Julius Caesar since so much of Caesar's life is retold in the gospels) is referring to Castor and Pollux.

    You bring up Peter the Rock "saying" Jesus is the Christ, Lepidus (rock) nominated Julius Caesar for dictator.
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    Dec 20, 2017 4:13 PM GMT
    Steefen to Bart
    And when texts speak of Jesus being a twin, that has nothing to do with Christian Diocurism?

    Dr. Bart
    What texts are you thinking of?
    I wrote a book on Didymus the Blind. Just because he was called Didymus (= twin) doesn’t mean that his parents were thinking of the Dioscuri! There are lots and lots of references to twins in the ancient world, not just in Greek mythology.

    Steefen
    Evidence of Dioscurism among Christians includes the depiction of Judas Didymus Thomas as Jesus' twin
    in the writings of Thomas: The Gospel of Thomas, The Book of Thomas the Contender, and the Actos of Judas Thomas.

    J. Rendel Harris, an English biblical scholar and curator of manuscript who wrote in 1913 a work called Boanerges.

    However, James and John 1) were called sons of Thunder, 2) had the lifespans of the Discouri, 3) offered to pull fire out of the sky like sons of Thunder and Lightning, 4) wanted to bookend Jesus in glory.