Back in the 1980s, I recall academia connecting Narcissism to Male Homosexuality / Disarming the Narcissist, Second Edition

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    Jan 21, 2018 7:30 PM GMT
    I'm reading "Disarming the Narcissist, Second Edition: Surviving & Thriving with the Self-Absorbed by Wendy T. Behary, LCSW

    Over the years, one of the most common issues that my clients have brought into therapy is how to deal with the self-centered, egotistical behavior of narcissistic partners. These clients almost always feel frustrated, angry, demeaned, and helpless over the almost total lack of sensitivity and empathy their partners show for their needs and feelings. I myself often sit in sessions in disbelief as I hear story after story describing the degree of selfishness these clients have to put up with. So often my clients can't seem to find the strength to either leave or stand up to the narcissists they fell in love with years ago.

    I am so excited that my close friend and colleague Wendy Behary has written this definitive book on dealing with narcissists to ehlp the countless number of people who, like my clients, try to live or work with narcissists on a daily basis.

    Jeffrey Young, PhD
    Director, Cognitive Therapy Center & Schema Therapy Institute of New York

    Faculty Member, Dept of Psychiatry
    Columbia University Founder
    International Society for Schema Therapy
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    Jan 21, 2018 8:43 PM GMT
    What is a narcissist in Astrology?

    North Node with Neptune in H1?
    Sun with Neptune in H1?
    North Node, Sun, Neptune, and Jupiter in H1?

    Are only Earth signs narcissists?

    Thank you.
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    Jan 21, 2018 8:50 PM GMT
    Reply from LV

    Hm. Having had the deep misfortune to have had relationships with two narcissists, I can honestly say that their charts, and their type of narcissism, was totally different from one another!

    The first one, he was quite unconscious of his own feelings, and his impact on others - self centred passive aggression was his preferred way of getting what he wanted if he was ever challenged or attention was diverted away from him. This one was utterly spoiled and idolized by his parents as he was growing up.

    The second one, he appeared very nice and considerate on the surface, but in fact everything was calculated to his own advantage. He wasn't just arrogant - he clearly had no concept that anyone else might have worthwhile needs or views other than himself, and could be deeply emotionally violent when he chose although of course denying all responsibility. This one held a deep rage against his mother who left the family when he was six.

    These are complicated issues, and I feel that while some pointers may be found in the chart, much of this type of behavior also arises through the responses in life that the individual develops, and the social conditioning they have had about what's acceptable behaviour. 'Narcissism' covers a great many unfortunate behaviours.
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    Jan 21, 2018 8:52 PM GMT
    Reply from AM

    "...Later therapists found that the narcissist’s feelings of grandiosity and superiority are actually defenses that protect a fragile and fragmented self. Underneath the defenses lies considerable pain, self-loathing and fragmentation of the self. Astutely, the poet Ovid portrays this fragmentation of the narcissist’s self by describing how Narcissus’ tears fall into the pond, blurring and shattering the reflected beautiful image..."

    "...The psychiatrist Heinz Kohut (learned about him from my Religion and Psychoanalysis course), writing in the 1970's in Chicago, was perhaps the most famous early researcher on narcissistic personality disorder. Kohut expanded Freud's view and argued that a narcissist has a different quality of relationship with the therapist than the everyday garden variety neurotic patient. A narcissist experiences the therapist as a piece of furniture or a pawn to be moved around at his or her convenience. He has no real connection with the therapist as a separate individual. The therapist, as well as others in the narcissist's world, Kohut exist as "self-objects" or "self-objects."

    The therapist exists only as a mirror of the narcissist's idealized self. Kohut called this the "mirror transference" to distinguish it from the type of transference relationship that Freud identified. Kohut believed that therapy with a narcissist was not impossible, but he thought it had to be interminable because of the narcissist’s insatiable need for self-mirroring and empathy.

    How do people become narcissists? Kohut argued that the narcissistic personality is formed early in life when a child is deprived of sufficient attention and love from his mother. Whereas a merely neurotic person falls in love with his parent in early childhood, the narcissist does not experience enough loving parent in his world to fall in love with. In more contemporary language, we might call this insecure attachment. So he falls in love, so to speak, with himself--or rather, with an idealized image of himself. Kohut believed that this parent-absence was a deep source of pain for the child and, later on, for the adult with narcissistic personality disorder.

    Since Kohut, many contemporary therapists believe that narcissism can be treated in psychotherapy--with enough time, patience, and unswerving empathy on the part of the therapist. At first, the therapist exists only as a mirror, echoing the narcissist’s good qualities. But eventually, the narcissist becomes secure enough to experience the therapist as a real person."
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    Jan 22, 2018 1:29 AM GMT
    Reply from T

    Someone who worked a long time as therapist with narcissists and has written several books about it is George K. Simon. He has a very good understanding about this Topic.

    It's a myth that narcissism, sociopathy etc. is developed because of some painful experiences in childhood. It's true for Neurotics but character disturbance as shown by narcissists etc. has other reasons and it is futile to look for some pain that troubles them. Very often it develops because children get praise for something they did nothing for to achieve like looks, intelligence etc.
    Therapists get best results when working on attitudes and behavior of the N. rather than digging into their emotions.

    Astrologically narcissism is hard to pin down. Difficult aspects to the sun and the moon should be looked at as a starter. Narcissists lack empathy. Something with their moon function is out of order. Their Venus doesn't work normally either.
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    Jan 22, 2018 1:57 AM GMT
    Jeffrey Young, PhD

    There are different categories of narcissists.

    There is a range of strategies that narcissists so skillfully employ to disarm you and even convince you that you are to blame for their complaints.

    It is important that your confrontation with them be empathic. This is how you stand up to narcissists.

    There are ways to develop and sustain compassion for narcissists, even when you are being mistreated.

    There are ways to create enough leverage to convince a narcissist to change. Have a set of tools that shift the odds in your favor in your relationship.

    Have confidence when your partner humiliates you in front of friends and family members or says things like:

    "You're so stupid if you cannot see that my way is the only intelligent one."
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    Jan 24, 2018 1:49 AM GMT
    This survival guide is filled with useful tips informed by

    1) the cognitive science view of how the mind is organized around schemas
    2) interpersonal neurobiology

    We will see how a narcissist sees the world and how that perspective is often devoid of interest in the internal world of others.

    Daniel J. Siegel, MD
    Author of
    Mindsight, The Mindful Brain
    The Developing Mind
    Coauthor of
    The Whole-Brain Child
    Parenting from the Inside Out

    Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, UCLA School of Medicine

    (writing in the Preface)
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    Jan 24, 2018 1:52 AM GMT
    Reply from PM

    I am just starting to come to terms with understanding that my husband (who left me with two young children last month) is a narcissist. He has 1 H sun and mercury, Taurus sun and ASC, moon in house 5 Leo and Venus in 12H Pisces. He thrives on the admiration of others and was worshipped by his mother as a child. I never thought it was a problem until recently, when he became more successful and admired than ever. His parents and I have both given ourselves to him in many ways, and he treats us as if he’s better than us- almost like he’s entitled to have others sacrifice for him with giving very little in return, other than his charms.
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    Jan 24, 2018 1:54 AM GMT
    Reply from E

    I know at least two:

    One has Sun conjunct Mars in 12h, with Venus opposition Uranus, Saturn on Serpentis.
    She is utterly ruthless.

    The other has Sun, Venus, Mercury, Chiron conjunct Moon in 12h.
    She is also utterly ruthless.

    Both were totally spoilt brats, with no adverse events whatsoever during their childhood, by their own admission.

    Everybody serves as nothing more than the channel by which their whims are delivered.

    As you can imagine, they are not popular people, but they are both in powerful positions. They are both despised, as people, by everybody but their parents, who dote on them.
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    Jan 24, 2018 2:02 AM GMT
    Charts and Map Global Astrologer Replies To E

    Serpentis: 19 degree Scorpio (always)

    Serpentis is not a fixed star. According to some astrologers, it is a particularly nasty degree of the zodiac. It has a fixed symbolism and does not precess with the equinoxes. Those who use Serpentis call it "the accursed degree of the accursed sign whose malefic influence never weakens."

    Wow, that's bad!

    It has the tragic nature of Saturn combined with Mars.

    Derek Appleby gives several convincing examples of its evil nature in his book on horary.

    There can be an instance when one should not fear it. - Olivia Barclay


    Sabian Symbol for Scorpio 19 degrees is Parrot hearing then speaking.
    The problem is a lack of listening and a lack of sensitivity, I say. Not really engaging in the conversation.
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    Jan 24, 2018 2:16 AM GMT
    Reply from RG

    Interesting topic. I believe that children react to parental aggression in one of two ways. Either they split off from the hurt child that is them, and take on a false self defense (in extreme, narcissism), or they try to maintain a connection with that parent through emotional feeling/soulful understanding of the parent's own hurt inner child (empathic tendencies). The former chooses to split off their inner child, which they dislike because of their vulnerability, and because of this break, they use vulnerable people to cast off their negative feelings. They choose the empath bcs the empath is wired to be inner understanding of such bad behavior. The empath is still connected to source, so they can unlearn on a quantum level the wired pattern; the narcissist is wired hard with ego defense, and a horror of the shadow, since they seem to be broken there.

    As an empath, I have in the past attracted narcissistic behavior as described above. Collectively in this culture (USA), it feels like a very dominant dynamic coming up to the surface. How disrespectfully we treat each other, so lacking in heart/intuition. We are thankfully becoming more aware, working through the pain, being more grounded and making healthier decisions.

    The narcissists who have made the most negative impact on me have been Capricorn Moons. No empathy, and seeming to revel in it. I have a Pisces Moon so they come across as heartless.
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    Jan 24, 2018 2:18 AM GMT
    Reply from AD

    Donald Trump is a narcissist. Look at his chart.
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    Jan 24, 2018 2:22 AM GMT
    Reply from BC

    Are we actually defining what NPD really is?
    Narcissistic personality disorder is indicated by five or more of the following symptoms:

    Exaggerates own importance
    Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence or ideal romance
    Believes he or she is special and can only be understood by other special people or institutions
    Requires constant attention and admiration from others
    Has unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
    Takes advantage of others to reach his or her own goals
    Disregards the feelings of others, lacks empathy
    Is often envious of others or believes other people are envious of him or her
    Shows arrogant behaviors and attitudes

    50 to 75 percent of the people diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder are male. Additionally, it is common for many adolescents to display the characteristics listed above; this does not indicate that they will later develop narcissistic personality disorder.

    Some of the people mentioned may be suffering from bipolar disorder or some other type of mental illness. Addiction issues are something quite different. However, Donald Trump does fit much of the criteria and has been diagnosed as having NPD by numerous mental health professionals.
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    Jan 24, 2018 2:30 AM GMT
    Alright. Confession.

    Major Problem for Me: a real narcissist
    Minor Problem: a Sun Sign that is quincunx my Sun Sign

    I can't really call a Quincunx Sun Sign to Mine a Narcissist but I do not think there is real empathy between two Sun Signs in Quincunx

    So, let's be sure to rule out the "Minor Problem".
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    Jan 24, 2018 2:38 AM GMT
    Interpersonal neurobiology examines the connections among
    - relationships
    - the mind
    - the brain

    The circuits in the brain that enable us to imagine the internal subjective experience -- the mind -- of another person may not be well developed or easily accessed in the narcissist. Mindsight is our capacity to see the mind itself, in ourselves and in others, and in narcissists, it is often poorly developed. Therefore, relationships with such an individual will feel lopsided: conversations and interactions are all about the other person, not about you or the two of you as a "we."

    (also from the Preface)

    Whoa!!!! How many times have my narcissist told me "There is no WE." And no, we cannot use truth, facts, science, or medical knowledge to come together.
    [Pretty much all I want to do is belittle you, stupid, and have you pay attention to me.]

    And it is now worse that I'm living under the Astro*Carto*Graphy influence of Saturn on the Descendant where cooperation is unrewarded (stick with isolation).
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    Jan 24, 2018 2:53 AM GMT
    Reply from T

    Sam Vaknin is a diagnosed narcissist who now helps people to understand this condition. We can look at his public natal chart.

    Charts and Map Global Astrologer / Steefen
    What? Moon Square Mercury: a challenge in emotional intelligence and communication?
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    Jan 25, 2018 2:17 AM GMT
    Moon is out of order and Venus doesn't work normally.
    = = =
    But where is the treachery coming from?

    There's the harmless Narcissist who looks at his reflection but doesn't have treacherous manipulation.
    Then there's the treacherous, manipulative Narcissist.
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    Jan 26, 2018 6:46 PM GMT
    People often find themselves shortchanged and thoroughly frustrated in interactions with narcissists,
    after delivering a thoughtful, self-disclosing statement using
    of the tools of empathic confrontation and limit setting.

    You have to be persistent and gain leverage.

    Of course the Narcissist doesn't care about consequences. He/she may be your boss, the father/mother of your children, your child who will forbid contact with your grandchildren (or sibling forbidding contact with your nephew/niece), or someone who, at moments, captures your heart within a relationship that includes sex within a committed relationship.
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    Jan 26, 2018 6:49 PM GMT
    As for the narcissist not caring about the consequences ...

    Sometimes the best option is to end the relationship because the risks are too high and there is too much danger living with narcissists who demonstrate hazardous behavior such as aggression, unremitting addictions, and a missing moral compass combined with remorselessness and an elevated sense of entitlement to do as they please.
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    Jan 26, 2018 6:54 PM GMT
    Reply from RG

    Jeff Green talks about the influence of the asteroid Lucifer in regards to evil in our lives, narcissism being one manifestation. My attraction to astrology is founded on trying to crack this nut. I am new to the language but resonate with two ideas mentioned here.

    1) an astrological profile might point out tendencies, but there is the neurobiological nurture element, what in the DNA gets expressed, ego vs soul.

    2) collectively, we are currently experiencing major flux discord of ego defining reality breaking down due to illusory power being weakened and challenge. I believe that truth in the long run will righten this course, as we counteract it with self determination.

    The Nature of Evil:

    Charts and Map Global Astrologer

    That link is a lot of reading. I'll have to get to all of it.
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    Jan 26, 2018 6:57 PM GMT
    Reply from A. M.

    Check the Neptune aspects for deceit/treachery.

    Charts and Map Global Astrologer

    How would I go about doing that? There are so many aspects.
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    Jan 26, 2018 7:02 PM GMT
    Reply from D
    This post has been interresting and I would like to contribute. This reply bumps it and will give me more time to gather my notes and respond.

    Charts and Map Global Astrologer
    Thank you. Astrology helps me evolve and hopefully helps my relationships evolve. (Unfortunately, many people do not have sufficient astrological perspective to share life mastery.)
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    Jan 26, 2018 7:05 PM GMT
    Reply from T

    As more I think about it I come to the conclusion that narcissists, sociopaths etc. will use all planets in a negative way.

    Some examples:

    Sun - inflated ego, everything has to be about them, only they are important
    Moon - lack of empathy, emotional disconnection from others
    mercury - brainwashing others, silent treatment, lying
    venus - lack of bonding, often cheating in relationships
    mars - some are physically violent, rageholics, "my way or the highway" attitude
    Jupiter - encroaching on others space and boundaries, believing themselves to be phantastic etc.
    Saturn - authoritarian behavior, making the rules that others are supposed to obey
    Uranus - trying to shock others with their behavior in order to pull them out of their center
    Neptun -deception of others, manipulations like gaslighting, lying
    Pluto - stalking, rape
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    Jan 29, 2018 6:16 PM GMT
    Reply from DH
    Hello everyone, my reply is in no way a psychological analysis just my 2 cents worth of what I have observed.

    I think that narcissism is within all of us; we just use replacement words to describe it and one word would be confidence. But when it starts going beyond the boundaries to the point of bragging or pointing to others how great they are or inferior you and others are compared to themselves and show no regret, remorse, compassion or empathy on what others think then we are approaching a different level of confidence and that level is in my opinion the level of narcissism. This would be considered a lower level instead of a full blown narcissist.

    Imo these signs and aspects would stand out within a narcissist:

    the egotistical signs of Leo and Aries also Leo Asc and Aries Asc.

    Planets involved would be Saturn, Mars, Pluto and Uranus especially the conjunction and opposition involving these planets.

    On many instances in looking at the chart we find Venus, Jupiter and Neptune also involved. Venus because of vanity, neptune highlighting idealism and when Jupiter is involved it exaggerated and expands the aspects/characteristics of grandeur with the planets it contacts.

    Of course we know there is the strong likelihood of narcissism starting in the early childhood (but not always). The parents or parent over glamorized their achievements of the child and placed them on a pedestal above others. When this is constantly done even when there is no doubt there was failure (on the part of the child) and what they did, coming in last etc, they start to accept that they are superior and above others. It's the old adage that if you repeat something over and over it will be accepted as truth even if it is false or wrong.

    Other situations that I have observed with persons having Saturn, Mars, Pluto and Uranus is that they thrive on instigating chaos so as to watch the "fireworks". They feed on the fuel of angriness and hatred that they create and on many occasions even participate in it. This created scenario causes a breakdown and destruction of the emotions and feelings which is something they dislike (emotions and feelings) because they lack this quality within themselves. They also use the lovey-dovey or charm approach towards others to manipulate them into what they want. Again, this is their way of thinking only of themselves and their needs. They will go to the extremes of coercement to achieve what they want and once it's gotten the thrill or excitement of gaining it is gone, it's like after they get what they want they don't want it, it's discarded like a piece of worthless trash.

    I know an individual(Leo) that exhibits a high degree of egotism that actually takes discarded objects such as old phones, vacuum cleaners or other items that are broken and destroys them with a hammer or drops them from high up just to see them break apart. Even when nothing was available they would purchase cheap items just to break them up and achieve the thrill of destroying them. Aspect within the natal chart, saturn/pluto conjunction in opposition to Mars.

    Other aspects, venus conjunct uranus in 3rd (of course there are other meanings to this conjunction ) but one that I have seen (I think one of the charts has this aspect) they think independently of their own wants and needs above others. Also, combinations of mercury and venus which would be communicating their own self worth.

    Another observation is that they are never wrong and would never admit it even if you show or prove that they are wrong. They will go out of their way to argue their point "until the cows come home" and then stand back and admire themselves for how righteous they are because they think they are superior. The only feelings they have are towards themselves and I even wonder about this. There's not enough room for anyone else in their world except for their own selves.

    Charts and Map Global Astrologer

    I'm dealing with a first born son, Virgo. In Chinese Astrology, he's an Earth Dog Virgo. You didn't mention Virgo above.
    I'm a Water Tiger Taurus.
    Given the Chinese Heaven Element Rule Metal nurtures Water, Water Nurtures Wood and Fire nurtures Earth and Earth nurtures Metal, he is not a nurturing big brother to me. The post would be to long to qualify that statement. There's no way in Hail, he'll let me nurture him.

    My Mercury is in Taurus. So, to him, I'm the fat, slow kid which makes me "stupid" and the one he doesn't like playing with. Even though my Mercury is in Taurus, I was on the Speech and Debate team, Toastmasters, and earned a bachelor's degree and he didn't do either.

    You mention the person who likes to destroy things. Well, his battle was to destroy the Christian faith of our family. Everybody else is stupid except him, the agnostic.

    You mention argue until the cows come home and then prance and strut in the mirror of self-righteousness and superiority. That's him.
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    Jan 30, 2018 4:29 AM GMT
    LH Replies

    I wish we had more actual charts to compare.

    There are definitions of "narcissist" which are available from many sources. What I believe the OP wanted to know is if there are astrological commonalities among narcissists. So we'd need many many charts to do some comparisons.

    BTW, a narcissist is not always evil. Some are merely totally self absorbed....with no real intention to hurt others.
    The sick part (because this is a mental disorder) is that even knowing they are hurting others does not "compute" in their "feeling mechanism." They CAN'T CARE.
    Neptune is always part of the mix in a powerful way. Or...the 12th house. Sometimes both.

    Charts and Map Global Astrologer

    With no real intention to hurt others?

    My baptism by fire began when an attractive 45 year old man arrived to our session ahead of his soon-to-be ex-wife. He glanced/glared at me, a 25 year old woman in a navy blue suit with only barely ripened clinical expertise. Without acknowledging me, he took a seat. "Just exactly how (expletive) long will this nonsense meeting take?"

    His wife arrived. She introduced herself and said hello to her husband who didn't respond.

    I proceeded to open the session by reviewing the info I had received from the court for their verification. He continued to sigh heavily, staring up at the ceiling. She nodded, affirming that all the info was correct.

    I then reached the part of the official document that stated the reasons for court-ordered mediation. It said the couple could not agree on who should have primary custody of their three children. He was proposing joing physical custody, and she wanted sole physical custody, granting him reasonable and unlimited visitation.

    Before I could finish reading the proposal, he interrupted me, rose to his feet, and scowled down at his wife. She immediately dropped her head and fixed her eyes on her shoes as he barked. "This is a total waste of time. There will be no mediation. We will go to trial and then you'll see what you get."

    Then looking at me, he continued with "put that in your official record, Miss Counselor, and also tell the courts that I am through with this mediation BS. She thinks because she is finally getting her happy little divorce that she can have my kids too. Well, we'll see about that. The only way my kids stand a chance of achieving functional brains and a successful futre is by living with me. Do you know who I am, Miss Counselor? Do you? I am one of the most well-respected litigation attorneys in this state. So ... good luck to both of you." He threw his papers on the floor and left.

    The wife told me how his intimidating style had snuffed out the courage and flattened the egos of many marriage counselors. No one could hold him accountable. She had been sad for a very long time because her husband was a difficult man. She couldn't live with his scorching behaviors anymore and no one seemed able to help. Her husband became such an overbearing egotist.

    Almost all experts in the field agree that more than 75% of the narcissists are male. This is partly attributed to gender-related qualities, such as aggression, competitiveness, limited attachment to others, dominance, and societal norms.

    Women can be narcissistic but they tend to express these traits mostly within the domains of personal appearance or vanity, the status of their children or household, and their value as caregivers. Women are inclined toward more covert manifestations of this syndrome: martyrs, whiners, and gratuitous victims. You will meet grand dames and divas in their aggressive quest for attnention and admiration. The similarity between males and femals is that both are distracted by an insatiable need to be the center of attention whether expressed overtly or covertly. THIS limits or even eliminates their capacity to be empathic and remorseful .

    Saying I'm sorry is like saying I am the worst person in the world, for them.

    Wendy Behary, LCSW (Licensed clinical social worker)