Why do we discriminate against ourselves?

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    Mar 06, 2009 3:08 PM GMT
    Hey duders, not sure if we've gone down this road before, but I thought it was an interesting question.

    Why do we, as gay men, take such hard positions against other men who are gay? I hear guys all the time saying that another gay guy is "too gay," or "flaming." Now, I understand that certain people have tastes as far as who they date - that's for sure - and I understand why you would or would not want to date someone based on how they acted. So I want to make it very clear that who you "date" will be an exclusion of this topic.

    I know it's hard to wrap your mind around it, but gender expression is a very personal concept based on environment and development, etc. So of course we are all going to think and act differently regarding our sexuality. I have friends that are ultra-gay acting, really straight-acting, and then some that are in the middle. Myself, I fall somewhere in the middle. I just think it's odd that we wouldn't want to associate with someone as friends because they act "too gay." After all, isn't that the one thing we all have in common? icon_smile.gif

    What do you guys think?
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    Mar 06, 2009 3:19 PM GMT
    People are all judgemental. We judge because of thier clothing, money they make, if they smoke etc...it's simple human nature. Even if we don't date the person everyone has standards, morals and ethics we live by and we don't associate with those to whom we feel don't fall with in these parameters. It's not just gays...

  • Timbales

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    Mar 06, 2009 3:22 PM GMT
    People want to be friends with people they are comfortable with and have common interests. I don't see that as discrimination. It's not like being a friend is a paid position.
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    Mar 06, 2009 3:38 PM GMT
    TimberooPeople want to be friends with people they are comfortable with and have common interests. I don't see that as discrimination. It's not like being a friend is a paid position.


    Oh I disagree... it can definitely be discrimination. Pay more attention and you'll probably see what I mean. Gay guys can be ruthless when they're talking about other gays who are more feminine.
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    Mar 06, 2009 3:40 PM GMT
    Cowboiway saidPeople are all judgemental. We judge because of thier clothing, money they make, if they smoke etc...it's simple human nature. Even if we don't date the person everyone has standards, morals and ethics we live by and we don't associate with those to whom we feel don't fall with in these parameters. It's not just gays...



    Yeah, I can see what you mean, but the thing is. We are all gay, some people just express it differently. It just seems like hypocrisy to say you can't friend someone because they are "too" gay.
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    Mar 06, 2009 3:46 PM GMT
    Totally Agree with you magicallydelicious.

    It doesn't surprise me that other people could be so judgmental to their own kind. But I guess everything is relative and on a case to case basis, to which all we can do is either get disappointed or be glad.

    I think some people are afraid to get labeled as "Too Gay" and feel that they will get embarrassed if they hang out with someone who appears to be "Too Gay". This feeling probably is the reason that makes them discriminate instead of understanding.

    I think the key here is ignorance of some that we are people of individuality and uniqueness. People will magnify a person's supposed "too gay" characteristics and generalize him as such, as opposed to understanding the person as a whole as unique as he is.

    But then again, this is the world. To those who accept people regardless of sex, color, mannerism, et al, be happy and thankful that you have a broader understanding of things. At the end of the day, you will be able to sleep at night because all you have are good thoughts to your own kind.

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    Mar 06, 2009 3:54 PM GMT
    magicallydelicious said
    Cowboiway saidPeople are all judgemental. We judge because of thier clothing, money they make, if they smoke etc...it's simple human nature. Even if we don't date the person everyone has standards, morals and ethics we live by and we don't associate with those to whom we feel don't fall with in these parameters. It's not just gays...



    Yeah, I can see what you mean, but the thing is. We are all gay, some people just express it differently. It just seems like hypocrisy to say you can't friend someone because they are "too" gay.


    I personally date the femmes...I do have a couple femmes that border or too femme for my personal taste. Yes I am judgemental, but I find thier actions to be inappropiate most of the time, and filled with drama. I don't liek their brand of drama, so I don't hang out with them.

    It's all a matter of personal taste...
  • Timbales

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    Mar 06, 2009 3:55 PM GMT
    magicallydelicious said
    TimberooPeople want to be friends with people they are comfortable with and have common interests. I don't see that as discrimination. It's not like being a friend is a paid position.


    Oh I disagree... it can definitely be discrimination. Pay more attention and you'll probably see what I mean. Gay guys can be ruthless when they're talking about other gays who are more feminine.


    It's been my experience that gay men can be ruthless about everything and anything.
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    Mar 06, 2009 3:55 PM GMT
    I'm afraid I might be one of those people, and I'm sorry if I've ever offended anyone. Like I was saying in the chatroom, I don't have any gay friends IRL. I normally don't associate myself with "flamers" or "queens" because they are just that. Straight people, especially rednecks, pick up on this, and will say or do something... where I come from at least. I've seen people beat just because they said something gay, did something gay, or even walked gay. I guess you can call me a pussy. I just don't want to be one of those people if I happen to be hanging out with someone like that. Again, I apologize if I offend anyone, but that's just how it is for me.icon_eek.gif
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    Mar 06, 2009 4:02 PM GMT
    Just because we are gay, does not mean that we are immune to societal/family/friends' judgments that those stereotypical gay people we see in movies/TV/real life are "bad'/"immoral"/"disgusting". We are human, after all, and as humans our judgments are often formed or effected by those with whom we associate. Those judgments may have different effects on different people. In some instances, they may cause us to examine our own behavior and try to change/correct any mannerism we may have that might identify us as one of those"bad"/"immoral"/"disgusting" persons. In some others, we may disassociate ourselves from "the gay scene", even though, as gay, we are automatically a part of it. In still others, we will continue to dislike/hate/not associate with those who do portray themselves in the stereotypical fashion. Since "we are not like that", it diminishes our identification with those "bad"/"immoral"/disgusting folks and makes us, though gay, a little more acceptable to our friends and family! As the bottom line, as we have been indoctrinated with the societal/family/friend's judgments, we assimilate those judgments as our own, even if they are hurtful to our brothers and sister gays. We need to change, just as we are trying to change the opinions and judgments of society!
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    Mar 06, 2009 4:02 PM GMT
    tafkalil saidI'm afraid I might be one of those people, and I'm sorry if I've ever offended anyone. Like I was saying in the chatroom, I don't have any gay friends IRL. I normally don't associate myself with "flamers" or "queens" because they are just that. Straight people, especially rednecks, pick up on this, and will say or do something... where I come from at least. I've seen people beat just because they said something gay, did something gay, or even walked gay. I guess you can call me a pussy. I just don't want to be one of those people if I happen to be hanging out with someone like that. Again, I apologize if I offend anyone, but that's just how it is for me.icon_eek.gif


    JAZZ HANDS ZACK!
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    Mar 06, 2009 4:03 PM GMT
    PeanutButterJelly said
    tafkalil saidI'm afraid I might be one of those people, and I'm sorry if I've ever offended anyone. Like I was saying in the chatroom, I don't have any gay friends IRL. I normally don't associate myself with "flamers" or "queens" because they are just that. Straight people, especially rednecks, pick up on this, and will say or do something... where I come from at least. I've seen people beat just because they said something gay, did something gay, or even walked gay. I guess you can call me a pussy. I just don't want to be one of those people if I happen to be hanging out with someone like that. Again, I apologize if I offend anyone, but that's just how it is for me.icon_eek.gif


    JAZZ HANDS ZACK!



    LOL
    Just Zack!

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  • OptimusMatt

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    Mar 06, 2009 4:04 PM GMT
    Well...I don't really discriminate because ultimately if you've got a dark sense of humor and possess the ability to make fun of yourself just as much as you might poke fun at others, then we'll probably get along.

    That being said - just because we're gay doesn't mean we're friends, and I don't have any obligation to 'make the effort' just because we both like the cock. A lot.

    If you bother me, if being around you is like walking on eggshells or feels like nails down a chalkboard, if listening to you blather on about yourself makes me feel like I'd rather be watching paint dry or poking myself with sharp pointy objects - gay or straight, fem or butch...we're not gonna hit it off.
  • irishboxers

    Posts: 357

    Mar 06, 2009 4:06 PM GMT
    Eh, people discriminating against something different, either because they fear it or fear what it says about them, is a story as old as time. Sensitivity training won't change it, so all we can do is navigate the minefield according to each of our needs and priorities. Don't hate the butch guys for not liking the fems and don't hate the fems because they're catty. It's just two sides of the same coin, so let's all accept that our culture is no different than any other culture. We will never, ever be all-accepting of each other and have all gays united with one belief. Homogenization like that has never happened in the history of civilization and won't be happening any time soon.

    It's not sunshine, I know, but it's realistic.
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    Mar 06, 2009 4:11 PM GMT
    I think the reason we discriminate against our own kind has to do with our subconscious fear of rejection by others. We know the ones deemed "too gay" are the scapegoats for the majority of the insults and stereotypes placed upon the gay community. Any association with "those" would bring insults and such to ourselves so we do what can (subconsciously, in some cases) to distance and display ourselves as moderates.

    Like a politician:
    Too right wing, people don't like you, you won't get elected.
    Too left wing, people see you as a radical, you won't get elected.

    My personal view: "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

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    Mar 06, 2009 4:23 PM GMT
    I'm probably guilty of reverse discrimination in this arena. When I know or suspect someone is gay or lesbian, I gravitate towards them, try harder to be friendly with them. If I ran my own company, I'd go out of my way to make it gay heavy in terms of employees. At the supermarket, I'm nicer to the fem checkout kid than I am to the average kid. Gay people rock, in all flavors.
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    Mar 06, 2009 4:28 PM GMT
    McGay said
    Gay people rock, in all flavors.


    Quoted for truth. Three cheers for fagdom.
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    Mar 06, 2009 4:31 PM GMT
    we all need to start getting along not downing others for thay do , who we are , because you dont know what the other person has gone threw in there life so you should taken the time to get know them you never know you could help them out that would make you a better person plus thay could end up being very close friend
  • David0728

    Posts: 34

    Mar 06, 2009 6:18 PM GMT
    I agree with a lot of what everyone on this post had to say. It is true that we all have our preferences regarding who we want to date. It is also true that we all need to love and respect one another. To me, that is what being gay is, accepting, caring, beautiful, and progressive. Unless someone is a total asshole or a thief (I work in clothing retail...bitterness) I'm genuinely sweet to them. That is something I always want to stay true to, my sweetness! I always told myself no matter what happens in my future, to always stay sweet. I do have my weak moments where I'll make a mean joke about someone, just like everybody else, but it is usually about a friend. I think there is an unwritten rule about how you can tease your friends. Right? Oh well, I hope you all have a great day and I love you!!!


    (I'm not high, this is natural! Haha!)
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    Mar 06, 2009 8:00 PM GMT
    I'm proud of you Rich.

    Thanks for posting this topic. I didn't even know you were the author. Thanks for making a very good point.



    C
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    Mar 06, 2009 8:44 PM GMT
    the reason why I wouldn't want to be friends with a feminine gay guy is because 1) like someone said before, people like to be friends with others who are similar to them and 2) for some reason i just find a man that acts a lot like a girl annoying....it may be discrimination but it's how i feel.
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    Mar 06, 2009 9:01 PM GMT
    I would have to say: Over the past 25 years I have not had one friend who is a flamer! Now I agree to a big degree, the kind of man I choose to date, friendship does not go under the same judgement. I don't care how a friend sounds.

    But in the time I worked for the gay community, in the last of it's gayest (happiest) years, and it's darkest years. I did have a friend who was a true flamer, and I called him Betty. I well remember rocking up to the bathhouse for my shift, and she was sitting in the main lounge doing her knitting. I just pissed myself laughing, and we become strong friends.

    But then after witnessing all the wicked things going on around me at the boathouse. I just had to get away move on, and I did, and all my friends including Betty were left behind. I went back to the life, and safety of a Mormon, and back to the real world of work too.

    I've never been apart of the gay community since, and if it was not for the Internet. I still would have no contact with the gay community at all. RJ has let me know, I'm not missing out on anything. Since I'm not looking for sex. I get all I need from my str8 mates, and this is the kind of guy I've growen used to being around, and now relate to best.

    Maybe if AIDS never come along. This would be diffrent, as I would never of walked away from the gay community, because of all the bad things I witnessed.

    PS. There is one person here who could come under the banner of being a true blue flamer, and I adore him.
  • TadPohl

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    Mar 06, 2009 9:14 PM GMT
    magicallydelicious saidHey duders, not sure if we've gone down this road before, but I thought it was an interesting question.

    Why do we, as gay men, take such hard positions against other men who are gay? I hear guys all the time saying that another gay guy is "too gay," or "flaming." Now, I understand that certain people have tastes as far as who they date - that's for sure - and I understand why you would or would not want to date someone based on how they acted. So I want to make it very clear that who you "date" will be an exclusion of this topic.
    icon_smile.gif

    What do you guys think?


    I think it's a multi layered issue and there isn't a crisp easy answer. Here are two of my theories and observations:

    1. It's done out of fear. Growing up in a heterosexual community we're taught/ programmed to believe that guys should act like guys....the more macho the better. And if you deviate from the belief then "something is wrong with you". "You're not a man." "You're a bitch" (in the misogynistic meaning of the word)
    A lot of gay men still unconsciously cling on to these beliefs.,,,and sometimes in an exaggerated fashion to compensate for being gay. "If you're gay, but you're at least butch it's not so bad...." I think a lot of gay men search for equality, to be "normal" and conform to an accepted society. Anything that threatens that conformity is a danger. We tend to bash things that we don't understand or feel threatened against....even limp wristed queens. Look at our history. It's an American pass time!

    How often does one look at a queen, an effeminate gay man and say to themselves or other people, "Look at that fag! They give us a bad name! We're not like that! We're nothing like them!"
    "Better to personally squash these fags before you're judged by your straight brothers."
    Some gays squash effeminate men by openly talking trash, whispering snide comments behind their backs or they avoid them all together in hopes of building an "elite" team of gay men separate from the gays they consider "inferior".
    It's a lot of insecurity that remind me of the games high school girls played in their social hierarchy.
    If you noticed...most of the guys...especially the secure, butch ones stayed far from this petty behavior. It's kinda ironic how it's played out in gay culture.....especially young gay culture.

    2. They sense bullsh*t and call it out.
    SOMETIMES effeminate men are effeminate for "show" alone. It's a facade, a defense mechanism and/ or a cry for attention. This can be off putting and viewed as desperate. Other guys sense something ingenuine/ fake about the guy and attack it. They are repulsed by the desperation, but can't articulate why...so they assume it's because these flamers are queens/ effeminate. They don't understand why these flamers must shout to express themselves instead of just be themselves without a need for a show. They begin associating being effeminate with being a fake person. Who wants to be around a fake, obnoxious person vying for attention? So they're avoided/ shunned by people who are sensitive about that behavior.

    They're my personal theories and observations. I could be wrong.