Gay Rights Anyone? I want to hear some other opinions

  • DrobUA

    Posts: 1331

    Mar 13, 2009 7:07 AM GMT
    I have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it? It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself. Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions. Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate. Take a higher road. The reaction I see to often is people being offended that other people don't accept them for who they are. They think that there is nothing wrong with who they are so they try and force their lifestyle onto an unwilling society. In my opinion, they are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with who they are, but my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does your next door neighbor's or you english teacher's. The only opinion that matters is your opinion of yourself. Sometimes the person that it is hardest to be honest with is yourself. Think, is my life the kind of life I want to lead? Can I be better? The answer is always yes. Everyone is human and with human nature comes flaws. I know better than anyone that I have many aspects of my life that need improving, but all I can do is try. Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
  • Sayrnas

    Posts: 847

    Mar 13, 2009 11:10 AM GMT
    Ahh...HMmm...What's the question again?

    I mean I kinda getting what your saying? But I think you need to remember a few things:

    A)Some of us really really fighting (and I mean fighting) for our (gay) rights.

    2)Some of us aren't...Some of us are blending in and hiding in plain sight and will most likely stay there if they can. So, some of the African American references are icon_cry.gif

    C)Those that are really complaining about gay rights and such are either afraid that they are one of us or have forgotten the whole Separation of Church and State thingy. So, I don't think that they are all there. That's just an assumption and a wild exaggeration at best but those like Boss Rush and McCain are nin-cum-poops-on-couch-when-you-leave-them-at-home-alone and I don't value their opinion.

    D)Who is forcing our lifestyle down anyone's throat. I do agree that there are some of that are out out oh gawd get out, but not all of us are. Which goes back to C...Just because they bark the loudest doesn't mean they speak for the majority. I rarely come across anyone nowadays that are that vocal about being gay and making sure you know it and breathe it.

    5)Why can't we all be under the same laws? What is so hard about opening everything to everyone as long as it doesn't hurt anyone? In the words of the Great Wanda Sykes "If you don't want gay marriage, don't marry one".

    I hope that answers your question?
  • Latenight30

    Posts: 1525

    Mar 13, 2009 11:21 AM GMT
    It seems it take a lot more people to get the rights but it take a flick of the pen and some votes cast to take them away.
    I guess if you want to go into the gay marriage poll- Will I ever see it in America, not in my lifetime. I think even with this huge change to Obama, which historicly is big, it's no going to do anything for us. He has bigger fish to fry and I want him to.
    Should someone be given a slap on the wrist for beating someone up, I don't care if you are gay straight tri bi quad red blue green. Hit someone, go to jail. Kill someone go to prison.
    In all actuallity I'd rather see more prisons and less Wal-marts.
    Medical care and having the right to say what happens to someone you love and live with. A heterosexual couple, and I'm being nice by not saying Breeders, can shack up in a trailor and be commonlaw. Why not us? If we hit our partner it's domestic violence isn't it? Domestic they live in the house we are in a relationship together....
    I think it's a bunch of folks splitting hairs. I know if I was to go back to SC and I was to be assaulted again, even with the 12 witnesess, it would go nowhere, it's just where we are in our society.
    Do I think people should get over what we wear and how we act and just accept everyone in this world is different. The same people who turn their head during gay pride parades with the leather thong wearing guys will turn their head away if they ever left the country and saw some of the international traditions and costumes.
    Leave well enough alone and treat everyon equally until they give cause not to get the same rights.
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    Mar 13, 2009 11:44 AM GMT
    The problem is... no matter what gays do there will always be those which focus on the negative, or rather what is percieved to be negative.

    The Right does not want the truth. Any chance they get they will demonize gays or deny them rights.

    Recently, we have been called intolerant ourselves because we do not respect those with different opinions--like the opinions of radical Christians. They fail to see that our own intolerance is a defense mechanism to fight their own intolerance which came first.

    James Dobson will never change his views. Tony Perkins will never stop presenting false information based on fear. Republicans--not all necessarily--will always use gays to fire up their base.


    The only way to stop this cycle... is to wait it out.

    Lastly, I know the religious right is getting scared. Their use of fear is no longer working especially on millennials who are being taught to question authority and think for themselves. Look at Prop 8 in California. In 2000, 61% voted to ban gay marriage. Eight years later that dropped down to 52%. People are changing their opinions; young Americans—overall more tolerant and accepting—are becoming eligible to vote; anti-gay people—mostly older folks—are dying out. Those are undeniable truths. Gay marriage, and all equal rights, will soon be legal throughout the country.
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    Mar 13, 2009 1:33 PM GMT
    Hmmm, I don't understand what human rights have to do with gay parades. For every gay man who parades around in his underwear once a year, there are 9 that are sober, boring, hard-working, tax-paying slaves to a free-market capitalist system.

    Everything that is said about gay men, can be said about straight men. Sex-driven? Check. Irresponsible? Check. Perverts? Well some are, I am not sure what you mean by the term pervert.

    Those in the majority who have the power in society will always come up with the extreme examples of a group in order to justify why others should not be granted the same rights. And why would the majority feel threatened? Good question, but my own personal opinion is fear. Fear of what they do not understand. Fear of change.

    Gays in many countries have the same rights as straights. Gay parades still happen, and the straights are now starting to show up in such large numbers, the LGBT community is starting to complain that the parade is losing its' meaning.

    The denial of equal rights for gays in the USA is a problem that has its' roots in some of the unique characteristics of the US. Religion is still far more important a social force in the 50 states then it is in many other Western countries. Often that religion is of the more conservative and rigid fundamentalist variety.
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    Mar 13, 2009 1:34 PM GMT
    DrobUA said If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them..


    www.hrc.org. They fight for equality different then any pride parade, or a gay bar.
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    Mar 13, 2009 2:03 PM GMT
    Do yourself a favor and get in touch with one of the GLBT lobbying groups in your state. I don't think you have a clue how much hard work is going into winning legal equality. Perhaps all you see are the club kids and pride parade dancers because that is who you hang out with. But you certainly aren't seeing the thousands of men and woman who have dedicated their lives to civil rights. As that appears to be the case, what are you doing for the cause?
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    Mar 13, 2009 2:19 PM GMT
    DrobUAThey see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them



    Whatever your own personal sexual morality, it seems a little jarring to hold these two views.

    a) I wish to deviate from mainstream sexual morality by sleeping with the same sex.
    b) I wish to impose my own conservative sexual morality on other gay men.



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    Mar 13, 2009 2:33 PM GMT
    DrobUA, I don't normally post on RJ, but this thread is one of my hot-button issues. I think you're going to find very little purchase here with your ideas, as I have when I've raised similar concepts to my gay friends.

    To those of you who are suggesting that people aren't aware of gays who are working in quiet, fighting the good fight for equality, that's entirely the problem: they aren't the public face of the gay community. Guys flaunting themselves in pink speedos, foam parties, people who routinely describe things as "wet" or "hot messes," etc. are the face that we choose to present. In no other Western society is walking down the street nearly nude, with your ass-cheeks on display, considered acceptable behavior or a way to display civic pride.

    The fundamental issue is one that has been a consistent wrench in the gears of modern civil rights movements: that the individuals involved often have a lofty goal, but focus more on the rights they deserve than the responsibilities they need display to earn it. Is it fair? Of course not. Neither is life in general, so get over it and be ready to work.

    If we're going to persist in comparing the black civil rights movement to the acceptance of gay society, you have to look at the many blacks who were willing to accept punishment when they forced society to look beyond its biases. Sarah Keys, Rosa Parks, Irene Morgan: all of these people were willing to pay an unfair price to air their beliefs. It feels like we just want to complain for a while, then go back to fun time, which is not how fights are won.
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    Mar 13, 2009 2:48 PM GMT
    tirenTo those of you who are suggesting that people aren't aware of gays who are working in quiet, fighting the good fight for equality, that's entirely the problem: they aren't the public face of the gay community. Guys flaunting themselves in pink speedos, foam parties, people who routinely describe things as "wet" or "hot messes,"


    I'm glad this debate has come up, it's really interesting.

    I think that part of the gay rights movement is about encouraging society to take a more liberal view to sexual morality generally.

    A society that says 'it's OK to be gay, but only if you settle down in a long term monogamous relationship,' ain't that great.

    So a guy in his underpants at gay pride is actually a huge political statement.

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    Mar 13, 2009 3:02 PM GMT
    Lost_And_Found said

    I'm glad this debate has come up, it's really interesting.

    I think that part of the gay rights movement is about encouraging society to take a more liberal view to sexual morality generally.

    A society that says 'it's OK to be gay, but only if you settle down in a long term monogamous relationship,' ain't that great.

    So a guy in his underpants at gay pride is actually a huge political statement.



    It's fair to say that guys in their underpants at a gay pride parade are a political statement, but they're not perceived that way. I hope I'm not dramatically misinterpreting the OP when I say that this was his point: progress comes at a price.

    While the eventual goal of the gay rights movement might be to be accepted no matter what sort of debauchery we engage in, isn't it more prudent (and infinitely more achievable) that we at least get ourselves on even footing first? Maybe we are, as you say, trying to change the world's opinions on the very definition of sexual morality, but I feel like that's a matter of champagne tastes on a beer budget.

    I don't feel that we have the societal currency to spend on that level of change until basic human rights are available to the LGBT society; that's why I advocate intelligent, measurable progress rather than universal demands.
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    Mar 13, 2009 3:19 PM GMT
    I hear ya, but I don't think that we can get meaningful equality until wider views on sexual morality have changed.

    In other words, changing views on sexual morality is not a luxury, it's a necessity. Society will be homophobic as long as sex outside heterosexual wedlock is thought to be a problem.

    The other thing about Pride is that for a lot of straight people, it's not shocking, it's fun. It's actually good PR for the gay community.

    As for black emancipation? Well, here's the Carribbean-led Notting Hill Carnival in London, as you can see, it's sexy as hell.

    notting-hill-carnival_edited.jpg

    24878.jpg
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    Mar 13, 2009 3:36 PM GMT
    I think I need to disagree with you about Pride. Either I've got a very conservative group of friends (I don't) or they're just playing with me (they might be), but pretty much every straight person I know rolls their eyes at Pride or considers it kind of gross.

    It's not homosexuality they disagree with.

    Personally, I don't disagree. The festival here in San Diego didn't fill me with a sense of societal pride. I left with images of saggy gents bulging out of plastic undies and hugely obese women with their boobs peeking lopsidedly at me, two images I'd rather leave to bleak carnivals and the shadowed nightmares of a fevered sleep.
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    Mar 13, 2009 3:37 PM GMT
    "they aren't the public face of the gay community. "

    And I wanted to add: they don't make for fun television. The ad-revenue-supported news model pushes sensationalism and a 24/7 news-cycle encourages the shallowest reporting with no analysis. See also complete blackout of global war protest movements in US corporate-owned media.

    We are a society of spectacle. If it doesn't provoke an immediate gut reaction then it won't keep me tuned in to the next AstraZeneca commercial.

    Super-effeminate queens in glitter and feathers sells ad time. People watch TV to have their opinions reinforced, not challenged. Deep-voiced diesel bulldykes appeal the immature seven year old.

    There's nothing more boring then a bunch of homos dressed up like normal people. I was a LGBT Bloggers Summit in DC a few months ago and they had photos of an early protest outside Congress. Normally dressed men and women holding very plain signs with very clear messages.

    Every once in a while, spectacle/image matches the advocacy. I think of Del and Phyllis the cutest pair of grandmother-types getting married in San Francisco (RIP Del). This image was compelling because it was instantly recognizable. 2 harmless old ladies that have spent their lives together kissing and being in love. Who would deny your grandmother that joy? The coverage usually didn't mention that Del and Phyllis were two ass-kicking grrls that have been at the center of the women's movement and gay rights movement for over five decades. They may look like sweet old ladies but these were two iron-clad never-back-down Amazon warriors. We see similar effect when Rosa Parks is treated as this harmless old woman that just happened to up and decide to not move to the back of the bus - in truth she'd been an activist for decades and complete badass.

    Also, the endless line of just-married couples grinning non-stop was a welcome change. It showed the joy that gay men and women want to access just like their straight counterparts.

    Yes the iconography shouldn't matter. Yes equal rights should apply to the lispiest, faggotiest, most flop-wristed Chris-Crocker super-homo or the most diesel, uber-butch bike-dyke just like they should apply to any other person that happens to reinforce every negative stereotype about their group. And the drag queens will always claim first right for Stonewall activism (which I think dooms the discussion).

    But we are a society of images. You have to replace the spectacle.

    See also: Bread and Circuses in the about-to-crumble Roman Empire.

    With Pride Parades I adapt the sentiment of all Jewish holidays: They tried to kill us. They failed. Let's dance!
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    Mar 13, 2009 3:38 PM GMT
    If we push for a more liberal view of sexual morality too fast or too far, I feel we may see a backlash. Society has to be ready to accept our lifestyles... pushing them along is good yes.... but it we push too far. too fast.....

    Roe v. Wade. The start of the major Christian Right rallied around that cause. Was society ready for abortion rights? I'm not sure... but look how influential the right has become. Many religious people will say Roe v. Wade was what got the evangelical movement into politics.

    What if we spark another "Roe v. Wade" cause-an-effect reaction? What if we already have?

    To those who don't care... I ask if they care about being legally equal with str8 people.
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    Mar 13, 2009 3:47 PM GMT
    DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different...."



    There's room in our world for everyone. if it wasn't for the drag queens and "effeminates" who took to the streets at stonewall, I dare say we wouldn't be where we are today.
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    Mar 13, 2009 3:54 PM GMT
    Just imagine if people tried to deny African-Americans civil rights because of the lyrics of N.W.A.'s rap songs. Denying law-abiding people civil rights is just plain wrong regardless of what you think of the behaviour of certain individuals within the group.
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    Mar 13, 2009 3:55 PM GMT
    Lets all just remember that gay rights started with drag queen riots on christopher street
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    Mar 13, 2009 3:58 PM GMT
    'Lets all just remember that gay rights started with drag queen riots on christopher street'

    Not really. There were movements in the 1940s.
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    Mar 13, 2009 4:03 PM GMT
    SurrealLife saidJust imagine if people tried to deny African-Americans civil rights because of the lyrics of N.W.A.'s rap songs. Denying law-abiding people civil rights is just plain wrong regardless of what you think of the behaviour of certain individuals within the group.



    bad analogy!!!!!!! and i'm beginning to get tired of AA being used
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    Mar 13, 2009 4:04 PM GMT
    funny that whenever u see a news clip about gay rights they never show gay pride parades. usually protesters or gay couples that look no different than if it were straight protesters or couples. so what is this crap that being at a parade or promoting a day of gay pride is the face of the gay rights movement? bunch of horse crap. dont tell or dictate how other gays should act or present themselves. otherwise u are just as short sighted as the people whom want to deny us our rights.
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    Mar 13, 2009 4:05 PM GMT
    andymatic said'Lets all just remember that gay rights started with drag queen riots on christopher street'

    Not really. There were movements in the 1940s.


    Actually I think it was the 1920s somewhere in MA
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    Mar 13, 2009 4:28 PM GMT
    Blackguy4you said
    SurrealLife saidJust imagine if people tried to deny African-Americans civil rights because of the lyrics of N.W.A.'s rap songs. Denying law-abiding people civil rights is just plain wrong regardless of what you think of the behaviour of certain individuals within the group.



    bad analogy!!!!!!! and i'm beginning to get tired of AA being used


    Why? Participating in a pride parade in drag, and rapping about the treatment of blacks by the police could both be considered political statements and both would be considered outside the mainstream of society.

    And if you don't like African-Americans being chosen then we could chose any other group that has been discriminated against. The Chinese, Japanese, Native Americans, etc.. The point I am trying to make is the same. Denying people civil rights is wrong unless they are committing a crime.
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    Mar 13, 2009 4:39 PM GMT
    Sweat said
    jprichva said


    I don't need to "earn" anyone's respect for what I am, I am entitled to it. Period.


    Anybody who believes that's how respect works probably doesn't get much.


    What has human rights have to do with respect? If that was the case a significant number of whites would have had theirs removed years ago.

    Human rights in a society that supposedly believes in the freedom of the individual should not equate to conforming to a narrow range of behaviours.

    "You shouldn't be allowed to marry because some of you upset what we think is decent."

    Well guess what folks there are a lot of aspects of society that upset different people. If I had my way I would never have to see "professional" wrestling, or beer commercials, or stupid college football games on TV. Or TV evangelists that spew bigotry and ignorance, or informercials that try and sell people stuff they don't need or can't afford.
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    Mar 13, 2009 4:48 PM GMT
    I'm pretty sure you can 'technically' trace the gay rights movement way back
    [url]
    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0761909.html[/url]
    They say its 1924

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_social_movements#Before_1860
    They say its way old. 1860s old. (I'm 19, so that is about my age times 9 or so years ago. That's a long time ago for me.)

    What matters is that we're fighting now.

    Other than that I'm just gonna say that, quite frankly, this argument is affected by everyone's definition socially acceptable. Which is kind of weird considering in most places gays are not socially acceptable by a considerable margin (of violence sometimes). I don't really have any answers to post up here. I Just wanted to share that with you guys. Have fun till your eyes drop out.