I have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it? It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself. Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions. Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate. Take a higher road. The reaction I see to often is people being offended that other people don't accept them for who they are. They think that there is nothing wrong with who they are so they try and force their lifestyle onto an unwilling society. In my opinion, they are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with who they are, but my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does your next door neighbor's or you english teacher's. The only opinion that matters is your opinion of yourself. Sometimes the person that it is hardest to be honest with is yourself. Think, is my life the kind of life I want to lead? Can I be better? The answer is always yes. Everyone is human and with human nature comes flaws. I know better than anyone that I have many aspects of my life that need improving, but all I can do is try. Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
I mean I kinda getting what your saying? But I think you need to remember a few things:
A)Some of us really really fighting (and I mean fighting) for our (gay) rights.
2)Some of us aren't...Some of us are blending in and hiding in plain sight and will most likely stay there if they can. So, some of the African American references are
C)Those that are really complaining about gay rights and such are either afraid that they are one of us or have forgotten the whole Separation of Church and State thingy. So, I don't think that they are all there. That's just an assumption and a wild exaggeration at best but those like Boss Rush and McCain are nin-cum-poops-on-couch-when-you-leave-them-at-home-alone and I don't value their opinion.
D)Who is forcing our lifestyle down anyone's throat. I do agree that there are some of that are out out oh gawd get out, but not all of us are. Which goes back to C...Just because they bark the loudest doesn't mean they speak for the majority. I rarely come across anyone nowadays that are that vocal about being gay and making sure you know it and breathe it.
5)Why can't we all be under the same laws? What is so hard about opening everything to everyone as long as it doesn't hurt anyone? In the words of the Great Wanda Sykes "If you don't want gay marriage, don't marry one".
It seems it take a lot more people to get the rights but it take a flick of the pen and some votes cast to take them away. I guess if you want to go into the gay marriage poll- Will I ever see it in America, not in my lifetime. I think even with this huge change to Obama, which historicly is big, it's no going to do anything for us. He has bigger fish to fry and I want him to. Should someone be given a slap on the wrist for beating someone up, I don't care if you are gay straight tri bi quad red blue green. Hit someone, go to jail. Kill someone go to prison. In all actuallity I'd rather see more prisons and less Wal-marts. Medical care and having the right to say what happens to someone you love and live with. A heterosexual couple, and I'm being nice by not saying Breeders, can shack up in a trailor and be commonlaw. Why not us? If we hit our partner it's domestic violence isn't it? Domestic they live in the house we are in a relationship together.... I think it's a bunch of folks splitting hairs. I know if I was to go back to SC and I was to be assaulted again, even with the 12 witnesess, it would go nowhere, it's just where we are in our society. Do I think people should get over what we wear and how we act and just accept everyone in this world is different. The same people who turn their head during gay pride parades with the leather thong wearing guys will turn their head away if they ever left the country and saw some of the international traditions and costumes. Leave well enough alone and treat everyon equally until they give cause not to get the same rights.
The problem is... no matter what gays do there will always be those which focus on the negative, or rather what is percieved to be negative.
The Right does not want the truth. Any chance they get they will demonize gays or deny them rights.
Recently, we have been called intolerant ourselves because we do not respect those with different opinions--like the opinions of radical Christians. They fail to see that our own intolerance is a defense mechanism to fight their own intolerance which came first.
James Dobson will never change his views. Tony Perkins will never stop presenting false information based on fear. Republicans--not all necessarily--will always use gays to fire up their base.
The only way to stop this cycle... is to wait it out.
Lastly, I know the religious right is getting scared. Their use of fear is no longer working especially on millennials who are being taught to question authority and think for themselves. Look at Prop 8 in California. In 2000, 61% voted to ban gay marriage. Eight years later that dropped down to 52%. People are changing their opinions; young Americans—overall more tolerant and accepting—are becoming eligible to vote; anti-gay people—mostly older folks—are dying out. Those are undeniable truths. Gay marriage, and all equal rights, will soon be legal throughout the country.
Hmmm, I don't understand what human rights have to do with gay parades. For every gay man who parades around in his underwear once a year, there are 9 that are sober, boring, hard-working, tax-paying slaves to a free-market capitalist system.
Everything that is said about gay men, can be said about straight men. Sex-driven? Check. Irresponsible? Check. Perverts? Well some are, I am not sure what you mean by the term pervert.
Those in the majority who have the power in society will always come up with the extreme examples of a group in order to justify why others should not be granted the same rights. And why would the majority feel threatened? Good question, but my own personal opinion is fear. Fear of what they do not understand. Fear of change.
Gays in many countries have the same rights as straights. Gay parades still happen, and the straights are now starting to show up in such large numbers, the LGBT community is starting to complain that the parade is losing its' meaning.
The denial of equal rights for gays in the USA is a problem that has its' roots in some of the unique characteristics of the US. Religion is still far more important a social force in the 50 states then it is in many other Western countries. Often that religion is of the more conservative and rigid fundamentalist variety.
Do yourself a favor and get in touch with one of the GLBT lobbying groups in your state. I don't think you have a clue how much hard work is going into winning legal equality. Perhaps all you see are the club kids and pride parade dancers because that is who you hang out with. But you certainly aren't seeing the thousands of men and woman who have dedicated their lives to civil rights. As that appears to be the case, what are you doing for the cause?
DrobUAThey see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them
Whatever your own personal sexual morality, it seems a little jarring to hold these two views.
a) I wish to deviate from mainstream sexual morality by sleeping with the same sex. b) I wish to impose my own conservative sexual morality on other gay men.
DrobUA, I don't normally post on RJ, but this thread is one of my hot-button issues. I think you're going to find very little purchase here with your ideas, as I have when I've raised similar concepts to my gay friends.
To those of you who are suggesting that people aren't aware of gays who are working in quiet, fighting the good fight for equality, that's entirely the problem: they aren't the public face of the gay community. Guys flaunting themselves in pink speedos, foam parties, people who routinely describe things as "wet" or "hot messes," etc. are the face that we choose to present. In no other Western society is walking down the street nearly nude, with your ass-cheeks on display, considered acceptable behavior or a way to display civic pride.
The fundamental issue is one that has been a consistent wrench in the gears of modern civil rights movements: that the individuals involved often have a lofty goal, but focus more on the rights they deserve than the responsibilities they need display to earn it. Is it fair? Of course not. Neither is life in general, so get over it and be ready to work.
If we're going to persist in comparing the black civil rights movement to the acceptance of gay society, you have to look at the many blacks who were willing to accept punishment when they forced society to look beyond its biases. Sarah Keys, Rosa Parks, Irene Morgan: all of these people were willing to pay an unfair price to air their beliefs. It feels like we just want to complain for a while, then go back to fun time, which is not how fights are won.
tirenTo those of you who are suggesting that people aren't aware of gays who are working in quiet, fighting the good fight for equality, that's entirely the problem: they aren't the public face of the gay community. Guys flaunting themselves in pink speedos, foam parties, people who routinely describe things as "wet" or "hot messes,"
I'm glad this debate has come up, it's really interesting.
I think that part of the gay rights movement is about encouraging society to take a more liberal view to sexual morality generally.
A society that says 'it's OK to be gay, but only if you settle down in a long term monogamous relationship,' ain't that great.
So a guy in his underpants at gay pride is actually a huge political statement.
I'm glad this debate has come up, it's really interesting.
I think that part of the gay rights movement is about encouraging society to take a more liberal view to sexual morality generally.
A society that says 'it's OK to be gay, but only if you settle down in a long term monogamous relationship,' ain't that great.
So a guy in his underpants at gay pride is actually a huge political statement.
It's fair to say that guys in their underpants at a gay pride parade are a political statement, but they're not perceived that way. I hope I'm not dramatically misinterpreting the OP when I say that this was his point: progress comes at a price.
While the eventual goal of the gay rights movement might be to be accepted no matter what sort of debauchery we engage in, isn't it more prudent (and infinitely more achievable) that we at least get ourselves on even footing first? Maybe we are, as you say, trying to change the world's opinions on the very definition of sexual morality, but I feel like that's a matter of champagne tastes on a beer budget.
I don't feel that we have the societal currency to spend on that level of change until basic human rights are available to the LGBT society; that's why I advocate intelligent, measurable progress rather than universal demands.
I hear ya, but I don't think that we can get meaningful equality until wider views on sexual morality have changed.
In other words, changing views on sexual morality is not a luxury, it's a necessity. Society will be homophobic as long as sex outside heterosexual wedlock is thought to be a problem.
The other thing about Pride is that for a lot of straight people, it's not shocking, it's fun. It's actually good PR for the gay community.
As for black emancipation? Well, here's the Carribbean-led Notting Hill Carnival in London, as you can see, it's sexy as hell.
I think I need to disagree with you about Pride. Either I've got a very conservative group of friends (I don't) or they're just playing with me (they might be), but pretty much every straight person I know rolls their eyes at Pride or considers it kind of gross.
It's not homosexuality they disagree with.
Personally, I don't disagree. The festival here in San Diego didn't fill me with a sense of societal pride. I left with images of saggy gents bulging out of plastic undies and hugely obese women with their boobs peeking lopsidedly at me, two images I'd rather leave to bleak carnivals and the shadowed nightmares of a fevered sleep.
"they aren't the public face of the gay community. "
And I wanted to add: they don't make for fun television. The ad-revenue-supported news model pushes sensationalism and a 24/7 news-cycle encourages the shallowest reporting with no analysis. See also complete blackout of global war protest movements in US corporate-owned media.
We are a society of spectacle. If it doesn't provoke an immediate gut reaction then it won't keep me tuned in to the next AstraZeneca commercial.
Super-effeminate queens in glitter and feathers sells ad time. People watch TV to have their opinions reinforced, not challenged. Deep-voiced diesel bulldykes appeal the immature seven year old.
There's nothing more boring then a bunch of homos dressed up like normal people. I was a LGBT Bloggers Summit in DC a few months ago and they had photos of an early protest outside Congress. Normally dressed men and women holding very plain signs with very clear messages.
Every once in a while, spectacle/image matches the advocacy. I think of Del and Phyllis the cutest pair of grandmother-types getting married in San Francisco (RIP Del). This image was compelling because it was instantly recognizable. 2 harmless old ladies that have spent their lives together kissing and being in love. Who would deny your grandmother that joy? The coverage usually didn't mention that Del and Phyllis were two ass-kicking grrls that have been at the center of the women's movement and gay rights movement for over five decades. They may look like sweet old ladies but these were two iron-clad never-back-down Amazon warriors. We see similar effect when Rosa Parks is treated as this harmless old woman that just happened to up and decide to not move to the back of the bus - in truth she'd been an activist for decades and complete badass.
Also, the endless line of just-married couples grinning non-stop was a welcome change. It showed the joy that gay men and women want to access just like their straight counterparts.
Yes the iconography shouldn't matter. Yes equal rights should apply to the lispiest, faggotiest, most flop-wristed Chris-Crocker super-homo or the most diesel, uber-butch bike-dyke just like they should apply to any other person that happens to reinforce every negative stereotype about their group. And the drag queens will always claim first right for Stonewall activism (which I think dooms the discussion).
But we are a society of images. You have to replace the spectacle.
See also: Bread and Circuses in the about-to-crumble Roman Empire.
With Pride Parades I adapt the sentiment of all Jewish holidays: They tried to kill us. They failed. Let's dance!
If we push for a more liberal view of sexual morality too fast or too far, I feel we may see a backlash. Society has to be ready to accept our lifestyles... pushing them along is good yes.... but it we push too far. too fast.....
Roe v. Wade. The start of the major Christian Right rallied around that cause. Was society ready for abortion rights? I'm not sure... but look how influential the right has become. Many religious people will say Roe v. Wade was what got the evangelical movement into politics.
What if we spark another "Roe v. Wade" cause-an-effect reaction? What if we already have?
To those who don't care... I ask if they care about being legally equal with str8 people.
DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different...."
There's room in our world for everyone. if it wasn't for the drag queens and "effeminates" who took to the streets at stonewall, I dare say we wouldn't be where we are today.
Just imagine if people tried to deny African-Americans civil rights because of the lyrics of N.W.A.'s rap songs. Denying law-abiding people civil rights is just plain wrong regardless of what you think of the behaviour of certain individuals within the group.
SurrealLife saidJust imagine if people tried to deny African-Americans civil rights because of the lyrics of N.W.A.'s rap songs. Denying law-abiding people civil rights is just plain wrong regardless of what you think of the behaviour of certain individuals within the group.
bad analogy!!!!!!! and i'm beginning to get tired of AA being used
funny that whenever u see a news clip about gay rights they never show gay pride parades. usually protesters or gay couples that look no different than if it were straight protesters or couples. so what is this crap that being at a parade or promoting a day of gay pride is the face of the gay rights movement? bunch of horse crap. dont tell or dictate how other gays should act or present themselves. otherwise u are just as short sighted as the people whom want to deny us our rights.
SurrealLife saidJust imagine if people tried to deny African-Americans civil rights because of the lyrics of N.W.A.'s rap songs. Denying law-abiding people civil rights is just plain wrong regardless of what you think of the behaviour of certain individuals within the group.
bad analogy!!!!!!! and i'm beginning to get tired of AA being used
Why? Participating in a pride parade in drag, and rapping about the treatment of blacks by the police could both be considered political statements and both would be considered outside the mainstream of society.
And if you don't like African-Americans being chosen then we could chose any other group that has been discriminated against. The Chinese, Japanese, Native Americans, etc.. The point I am trying to make is the same. Denying people civil rights is wrong unless they are committing a crime.
I don't need to "earn" anyone's respect for what I am, I am entitled to it. Period.
Anybody who believes that's how respect works probably doesn't get much.
What has human rights have to do with respect? If that was the case a significant number of whites would have had theirs removed years ago.
Human rights in a society that supposedly believes in the freedom of the individual should not equate to conforming to a narrow range of behaviours.
"You shouldn't be allowed to marry because some of you upset what we think is decent."
Well guess what folks there are a lot of aspects of society that upset different people. If I had my way I would never have to see "professional" wrestling, or beer commercials, or stupid college football games on TV. Or TV evangelists that spew bigotry and ignorance, or informercials that try and sell people stuff they don't need or can't afford.
Other than that I'm just gonna say that, quite frankly, this argument is affected by everyone's definition socially acceptable. Which is kind of weird considering in most places gays are not socially acceptable by a considerable margin (of violence sometimes). I don't really have any answers to post up here. I Just wanted to share that with you guys. Have fun till your eyes drop out.
SurrealLife saidJust imagine if people tried to deny African-Americans civil rights because of the lyrics of N.W.A.'s rap songs. Denying law-abiding people civil rights is just plain wrong regardless of what you think of the behaviour of certain individuals within the group.
I don't disagree that this is wrong, but prominent figures in the black community (Bill Cosby, anyone?) have attacked the gangbangers and thugs in black society as a major force against equality for blacks. They've likewise been attacked as being 'white apologists' and the like. The claim is that they've justified racial hatred, whereas, in reality, they're shedding light on aspects of black society that society in general--not just racist creeps--finds objectionable.
It's one thing to have pride in the core concepts of your society. It is entirely another to hold to a radical and unimportant components for the sake of doing so, especially when it holds all of your other goals back.
There are some people who are going to consider anything remotely gay-related offensive, and we can't help that. There are others who will consider anything remotely gay-related something to be celebrated and viciously defended. (People of Berkeley, I'm looking at you.) And that's fine. But when an element of your cause is alienating even the most forgiving people who are on the fence about gay rights, compromise should at least be considered.
SurrealLife saidIf I had my way I would never have to see ... stupid college football games on TV.
I find that extremely offensive.
There is nothing stupid about college football games. They excite pointless rivalries between colleges which are very fun.
Hehe, I am being facetious. But when I am with my brother and his son and they are getting all excited about a football game between two college teams in the USA that they have never been to, then I have to start wondering about their sanity.
Sweat saidThis series of posts always breaks down the same way: One side arguing that basic human rights shouldn't require a vote, and the other arguing that it would speed political progress if people would reign in their freaky and selfish exhibitionism.
Both are true, but nobody seems to get that you're addressing two different questions.
I don't think you get that freaky makes the news, and responsibility doesn't. How do I reign in the 1% of people who are freaks? You don't. You learn how to own the airwaves.
Wow, what a shocker, yet another homo lecturing me on why we should all be the 'grey' in the homo rainbow. Sounds awfully 'g0y-like' to me, personally.
I DO respect myself, and I do recognize my flaws...but I'm amazing regardless. End of story.
Here's some ammunition, and a little fire - get over yourself buddy, society can suck my dick. NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, will EVER convince me that I'm somehow less deserving of basic human rights (at the very least I deserve the right to NOT be murdered for who I fall in love with) and quite frankly, I don't see WHY I shouldn't be allowed to shake my ass in my briefs in public - if females world-wide are applauded when they flash their tits or pop their twat in public then I'm allowed a little ass-poppin myself.
And quite frankly, I would expect that sectors of society that have directly felt the burn of being discriminated and hated for something that (a) is unavoidable (you can't change the colour of your skin) and (b) is nothing more than an unfair justification to hate would have the intelligence, or at the VERY least the sympathy, to recognize and work towards bettering the world.
tiren saidI think I need to disagree with you about Pride. Either I've got a very conservative group of friends (I don't) or they're just playing with me (they might be), but pretty much every straight person I know rolls their eyes at Pride or considers it kind of gross.
It's not homosexuality they disagree with.
Personally, I don't disagree. The festival here in San Diego didn't fill me with a sense of societal pride. I left with images of saggy gents bulging out of plastic undies and hugely obese women with their boobs peeking lopsidedly at me, two images I'd rather leave to bleak carnivals and the shadowed nightmares of a fevered sleep.
But you know what? if it was 300 floats of popping titties in 2-piece bikinis I bet they'd be a hell of a lot less 'grossed out' by it.
Sweat saidThat's a copout to suggest the media's penchant for the lurid is primarily to blame. Just read the threads on this site. They're filled with people ranting about their "right" to gyrate on floats in their underwear.
The community is due for some self-examination, and as long as it blames others (straights, the media, etc), progress is going to be very, very slow.
That's disingenuous to suggest that ANYONE on this site has been gyrating on a float. They're arguing for the RIGHT to do it.
The media is ENTIRELY to blame. What country do you live in?
He lives in Georgia, USA, not the other Georgia. And that picture of those two guys offends my aesthetic sensibilities although I believe they have the right to offend me.
It will be easier for gays to purchase media outlets than it will be to stop someone from gyrating on a float. Stopping people from being freaks is IMPOSSIBLE. It's like forcing abstinence on teenagers; lots of rings and lots of babies. Total nonsense.
Sweat saidThe post preceding mine posted while I was typing. Still think it's 1%?
I would rather be considered a freak then be ashamed of myself for something I can't help.
"We're all stars now - in the dope show"
It's true - call me whatever you want, I've got a million names I'll call myself first. But you don't know me at all.
This is my friend Marc Hall and I.
I suggest you look him up on wikipedia. He inspires me. As you can see...neither of us care what the rest of the world thinks. They don't know us, not really. So I'll label myself however I want, truthfully or falsely, because society is going to do the same thing, truthfully or falsely. But at the end of the day my basic human rights are not invalidated because I suck dick and not pussy.
*and as a general fyi, I've never even taken my shirt off at a pride parade. But I retain the right to do so.
SurrealLife saidHe lives in Georgia, USA, not the other Georgia. And that picture of those two guys offends my aesthetic sensibilities although I believe they have the right to offend me.
I perhaps could have gone with a better pic, for the sake of winning the pro-pride argument.
BioMatty saidWow, what a shocker, yet another homo lecturing me on why we should all be the 'grey' in the homo rainbow. Sounds awfully 'g0y-like' to me, personally.
I DO respect myself, and I do recognize my flaws...but I'm amazing regardless. End of story.
Here's some ammunition, and a little fire - get over yourself buddy, society can suck my dick. NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, will EVER convince me that I'm somehow less deserving of basic human rights (at the very least I deserve the right to NOT be murdered for who I fall in love with) and quite frankly, I don't see WHY I shouldn't be allowed to shake my ass in my briefs in public - if females world-wide are applauded when they flash their tits or pop their twat in public then I'm allowed a little ass-poppin myself.
And quite frankly, I would expect that sectors of society that have directly felt the burn of being discriminated and hated for something that (a) is unavoidable (you can't change the colour of your skin) and (b) is nothing more than an unfair justification to hate would have the intelligence, or at the VERY least the sympathy, to recognize and work towards bettering the world.
The idea that "society can suck [your] dick" and you'll do what you want, when you want, is exactly what he's arguing against. I know you don't care. So guess what, society doesn't care that you feel deserving of equal rights in addition to respect for behavior that would be just as looked down upon if engaged in by straight males.
With regard to females flashing their breasts or showing off their vaginas, those are indeed applauded in certain venues. Society may acknowledge and hypersensationalize vag-danglers like Britney or unrepentant whores like Anna Nicole Smith, but they do not respect them.
I maintain that all gays deserve equal rights, but that equality does not yet exist. Insisting that one deserves equal rights is just sound and fury: it signifies--and does--nothing. If there weren't a problem here, we wouldn't be discussing it. Problems do not go away if not solved. Doing nothing is not a solution.
Well, to be fair - I HAVE my equal rights. Go Go Canada.
So clearly the concept that partaking in behaviour that 'straight males wouldn't' is what's causing the stagnation of the homosexual rights movement is a flawed argument because gay rights was put to a vote not once, but TWICE (the second being a TRUE free vote) up here and, gosh darn it wouldn't you know...those prancing queens on church st STILL got their rights.
And I'm stopping right there. Cause if my rights as a gay man required me to follow heteronormality...well I'd rather be gay.
With regard to females flashing their breasts or showing off their vaginas, those are indeed applauded in certain venues. Society may acknowledge and hypersensationalize vag-danglers like Britney or unrepentant whores like Anna Nicole Smith, but they do not respect them.
and by 'certain venues' you ARE including just about EVERY ad campaign targeted towards heterosexual males right?
BioMatty saidWell, to be fair - I HAVE my equal rights. Go Go Canada.
So clearly the concept that partaking in behaviour that 'straight males wouldn't' is a flawed argument because gay rights was put to a vote not once, but TWICE (the second being a TRUE free vote) up here and, gosh darn it wouldn't you know...those prancing queens on church st STILL got their rights.
And I'm stopping right there. Cause if my rights as a gay man required me to follow heteronormality...well I'd rather be gay.
It's not flawed. The mores and standards of one nation are not the same as another. Canada is a fundamentally different country than the United States.
The issue here is that in most circumstances our human rights are so universally guaranteed that we forget they are the product of society and the human flaws that drive it. Nominally, everyone is granted the same level of rights in American society. Factually, that obviously isn't the case. Rather than trying to argue with fact (and thus losing) I'm advocating working to change fact. It's the logical course to go with.
I'm happy that Canada is a step ahead in this aspect, but we're working to change things here in the States.
tiren said I'm happy that Canada is a step ahead in this aspect, but we're working to change things here in the States.
You're right, of course. I've been rather bitchy all week which is probably why I've been so inflammatory with respect to things I feel strongly about.
Look, the reason that I am so adamant that homosexual rights are fundamental is because I can function in a heterosexual world. I may not seem like it in this thread, but I'm the kind of gay man straight men meet and go "geez, I wish ALL gay guys were like you". I work as hard as they do, I push back when I get pushed, and (as I think you've become aware) I push hard myself.
But I refuse to use my masculinity as a shield anymore. There was a time when I thought to myself 'why can't they just be less...gay? It's working for me'. Things have been SO easy for me when it comes to being gay, and they always have been. But I saw this one day and I realized how applicable it truely is.
Just because I'm heteronormal (for the most part anyways) and I don't get the backlash doesn't mean I should just sit there and cluck my tounge at the "Jacks" of gay society. They may not represent YOU as a masculine, rare-steak-eating rugged gay man...but they are entitled to the basic rights of Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And if that happiness involves shaking their ass on a float, well...deal with it. Cause it's their ass, and it's their right.
DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it? It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself. Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions. Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate. Take a higher road. The reaction I see to often is people being offended that other people don't accept them for who they are. They think that there is nothing wrong with who they are so they try and force their lifestyle onto an unwilling society. In my opinion, they are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with who they are, but my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does your next door neighbor's or you english teacher's. The only opinion that matters is your opinion of yourself. Sometimes the person that it is hardest to be honest with is yourself. Think, is my life the kind of life I want to lead? Can I be better? The answer is always yes. Everyone is human and with human nature comes flaws. I know better than anyone that I have many aspects of my life that need improving, but all I can do is try. Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
The African-American metaphor is flawed. Gangster rap was thier pride parade, so-to-speak. While it may have alienated some, it made people pay attention to the real problems of the oppression of that minority. Suburbanites got a fast, albeit nontraditional, education. 20 years later, they're worshipping a black man as the leader of the free world.
Most of the world doesn't care if gay people exist or not. The only people who care are those who are insecure enough to want the world to conform to their expectations and have people be just like them, so that they don't have to face difficult learning experiences or have their minds changed. Unfortunately, these people are the loudest. But to satisfy these folks is to get mired in something ultimately worthless, and probably even detrimental to our own collective mental health.
I appreciate your call for us to improve our own lives, to satisfy ourselves instead, and to be examples to each other. We need to be as secure in ourselves as non-judgemental straight folks are (a difficult task, due to childhood messages we received about homosexuality). That's where support (other gays, friendly straights, church, some family) comes in handy.
Just don't give our judgemental opponents any credibility please.
DrobUA said Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
Tell me, do straight people need to earn respect or are they simply accorded it by society by virtue of being alive?
I don't need to "earn" anyone's respect for what I am, I am entitled to it. Period.
Obviously not, otherwise equality wouldn't be an issue. You may think you are entitled to it, but according to the majority of society you aren't. I'm just trying to get you to see what the other side is seeing. I'm not saying they are right, but if you want change, one side has to change. We only have control of ourselves. I'm not saying drag queens and parades haven't gotten us where we are today, but our presence is known. The world knows we are here and they know what we want. Now it's the issue of convincing them we deserve it. Should we have to? No, but thats the world we live in.
BioMatty saidWow, what a shocker, yet another homo lecturing me on why we should all be the 'grey' in the homo rainbow. Sounds awfully 'g0y-like' to me, personally.
I DO respect myself, and I do recognize my flaws...but I'm amazing regardless. End of story.
Here's some ammunition, and a little fire - get over yourself buddy, society can suck my dick. NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, will EVER convince me that I'm somehow less deserving of basic human rights (at the very least I deserve the right to NOT be murdered for who I fall in love with) and quite frankly, I don't see WHY I shouldn't be allowed to shake my ass in my briefs in public - if females world-wide are applauded when they flash their tits or pop their twat in public then I'm allowed a little ass-poppin myself.
And quite frankly, I would expect that sectors of society that have directly felt the burn of being discriminated and hated for something that (a) is unavoidable (you can't change the colour of your skin) and (b) is nothing more than an unfair justification to hate would have the intelligence, or at the VERY least the sympathy, to recognize and work towards bettering the world.
You still don't understand.. I am NOT saying you are less deserve equality. I'm saying the people holding the cards don't think you do. You can lash out and say how unfair it is all you want but that isn't gonna change it. Fact is they have the majority vote. You may say you shouldn't have to prove your worthy but fact is until you can convince the majority that you deserve it, it's not gonna change.
Lost_And_Found said^ Except I like the freaky exhibitionism
But the people deciding whether or not you get equal rights do not.
But don't you see how completely unjust that is?
I, personally, am ALL for sitting on the proverbial bus. Screw societal niceties, I'm freakin tired.
and as per your latest point...sweetie, the people holding MY cards DID agree with me and my prancing queen bretheren.
I love my country.
I didn't say it wasn't unjust. The world isn't fair, I don't think thats news to anyone. Good for your country, but mine does not. For a community that doesn't want to be judged we sure do a lot of judging. I get more shit from people in the gay community telling me I'm not gay enough or I'm pretending to be someone I'm not, than I do from the straight community for being gay. Sexuality isn't always black and white. Just because someone is different than you are doesn't mean they are acting. I'm not trying to tell people the way they live their lives is wrong. I think people should do what makes them happy as long as it isn't hurting other people. Like it or not the rest of society does not want to see you dancing around in your underwear. The only message you are sending is that you are screaming for attention. I don't know about you but that's not the kind of attention I want to be associated with. I'm aware that I am a minority within a minority. As for gangster rap being associated with black rights.. not really relevant. In the 50's and 60's when the civil rights movement was going on gangster rap wasn't music that many people heard. It was after they had their rights legally that songs emmerged about the discrimination that was still in play. (In the late 80's early 90's)
When you turn 40 you are going to laugh in shame at how f*cking deluded you were when you were 19. It's okay. We've all been there. Trust me.
But go ahead, keep pushing your groundbreaking formula for success on us.
Now let's review:
"I have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society."
You start off by immediately shooting yourself in the foot. The rest of the world is some 5.4b people. I know they aren't *all* against me, because my mother loves me and has never looked down upon me. There's 1 person. I'll bet I can count at least another 200 straight people in my life who don't think of me this way either. So don't try to initiate a point by exaggerating the negative to us and try and make us depressed before we even get deep into your post.
Really, I'm sorry li'l ol' Tucson and it's mean citizens have given you such a depressingly skewed view of the world.
"Instead of validating them why not try and be better?"
Better than what? You provide no point of reference here. Do you mean better than an irresponsible sex-driven pervert? I don't know anyone like this. I'm pretty sure nearly all gay folks are better than this character you've painted already. But perhaps you know a different crowd. That sounds unlucky! Or that you're looking for them. Or something.
"If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them."
They paraded around in their skin. They couldn't help it. Further, I think a lot of people woke up to what was going on with our African American communities when they saw and heard gangster rap. It was alienating to many, yes, but I doubt anyone can forget those lyrics and images. I think this accelerated change. Sure, it caused a backlash, but in retrospect, I think the net is pretty damn good. Welcome, president Obama. (second point here repeated from above for convenience)
"Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it?"
Your message of empathy is noble. We have to know how our detractors think in order to effectively change minds. But you ruin it pretty quickly by telling us not to be offended. Did you know you can be offended and use empathy at the same time? It's a complex notion I know, so I don't expect you to understand. And how can I be in someone else's shoes and be honest with myself? I think I would have to be wearing my own shoes for that. This is a scatterbrained sentence and only confuses your point. And if I were not gay, I would seek to understand gay folks just as I seek to understand others who are different than me, because people different than me are all around me, and I want to live peacefully among them. Folks who don't think this way begin to try and make the world like them, so that life is less challenging. I don't think those folks should be enabled the way you seem to suggest.
"It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself."
A throwaway sound byte that everyone should already know anyway, and doesn't fit with any of your other statements. Evangelists like to do this...get you to smile and nod at one feel-good statement and then hit you with a dubious one while your guard is down and your trust is up.
"Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions."
More of the same. Very inspirational. Personal responsibility. Well who can argue with that? Teach me more, please, I'm begging you, oh wise one.
"Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate. Take a higher road."
What's this ammo we're providing...examples? And what does the higher road look like? Please elaborate.
"The reaction I see to often is people being offended that other people don't accept them for who they are. They think that there is nothing wrong with who they are so they try and force their lifestyle onto an unwilling society."
Whoa! What's going on with this? Who forces what on who? Define "force". What is the minimum I would need to do for someone else to consider it "forcible"? And after defining this, can you think of anything that a heteronormative society might be forcing on gay folks?
"In my opinion, they are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with who they are, but my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does your next door neighbor's or you english teacher's. The only opinion that matters is your opinion of yourself."
Great. Society's opinion doesn't matter. Let your freak flag fly, as they say. Celebrate diversity. But wait...this isn't what you were saying earlier. You've done a complete 180, because earlier you were telling us, basically, to behave ourselves in front of the big bad straight world. I think something about underwear and what others think. I think something about forcing ourselves on others. Hmm.
"Sometimes the person that it is hardest to be honest with is yourself. Think, is my life the kind of life I want to lead? Can I be better? The answer is always yes. Everyone is human and with human nature comes flaws. I know better than anyone that I have many aspects of my life that need improving, but all I can do is try."
More feel good mumbo jumbo that doesn't feel very good now in light of your other reprimands. Really, you should be an evangelist. Just make sure your flock has an under 60 IQ. They'll lap this up.
"Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it."
If this is true then why is it so hard for you to understand why you may not be getting much respect in this thread? At 19 and with 7 posts under your belt do you think you have *earned* the respect you are seeking from us on this topic?
I'm gay and in Canada. Canada has the largest Gay Pride Parade participation. Over a million people line the streets or are in the parade. Most of them are str8 people who don't think we're all freaks. They just come because we're fun. Same gender marriages are also recognized by law as legal under our constitution. Maybe you just need to move farther north :-)
When you turn 40 you are going to laugh in shame at how f*cking deluded you were when you were 19. It's okay. We've all been there. Trust me.
But go ahead, keep pushing your groundbreaking formula for success on us.
Now let's review:......
.........."Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it."
If this is true then why is it so hard for you to understand why you may not be getting much respect in this thread? At 19 and with 7 posts under your belt do you think you have *earned* the respect you are seeking from us on this topic?
Many people think wisdom comes with age.. I think arrogance comes with age. My 93 year old grandfather thinks its ridiculous that young people are telling him he can't drive. He has been doing it his whole life. According to him young people are the ones that shouldn't be allowed to drive. Being young and being naive are two very different things. I am aware that I don't know everything given my limited experience, but I am voicing my opinion.
My response to your evaluation: "You start off by immediately shooting yourself in the foot. The rest of the world is some 5.4b people. I know they aren't *all* against me, because my mother loves me and has never looked down upon me. There's 1 person. I'll bet I can count at least another 200 straight people in my life who don't think of me this way either. So don't try to initiate a point by exaggerating the negative to us and try and make us depressed before we even get deep into your post."
I didn't say they were all against you. My family and friends love me as well, but obviously enough people are against you to keep you from having equal rights.
"They paraded around in their skin. They couldn't help it. Further, I think a lot of people woke up to what was going on with our African American communities when they saw and heard gangster rap. It was alienating to many, yes, but I doubt anyone can forget those lyrics and images. I think this accelerated change. Sure, it caused a backlash, but in retrospect, I think the net is pretty damn good. Welcome, president Obama. (second point here repeated from above for convenience)"
Of course racial discrimination is different. Not having the ability to hide it forced more into the cause for equality. The fact that people can go their entire lives hiding from who they are only sets us back farther and makes us more misunderstood. It makes it look like a choice.
"Your message of empathy is noble. We have to know how our detractors think in order to effectively change minds. But you ruin it pretty quickly by telling us not to be offended. Did you know you can be offended and use empathy at the same time? It's a complex notion I know, so I don't expect you to understand. And how can I be in someone else's shoes and be honest with myself? I think I would have to be wearing my own shoes for that. This is a scatterbrained sentence and only confuses your point. And if I were not gay, I would seek to understand gay folks just as I seek to understand others who are different than me, because people different than me are all around me, and I want to live peacefully among them. Folks who don't think this way begin to try and make the world like them, so that life is less challenging. I don't think those folks should be enabled the way you seem to suggest."
You can be offended and use empathy at the same time, but what is the point. It is a waste of energy and frustration. Why not pity them. Try to understand why they are the way they are. You may say if you were straight you'd still be for equality but the truth is you have no idea because your view on every experience you have ever had has been altered. Your eyes have been forced open. They don't have this liberation.
"What's this ammo we're providing...examples? And what does the higher road look like? Please elaborate."
The ammo being provided is that they are basing their view of the community by what they see at gay events. All they see is nudity and sexually explicit acts. This is why many people who do not personally know any gay people view us as perverts, or sex addicts. The higher road is leading by example. Contribute not only to your community but society as a whole. Be a positive influence.
"Whoa! What's going on with this? Who forces what on who? Define "force". What is the minimum I would need to do for someone else to consider it "forcible"? And after defining this, can you think of anything that a heteronormative society might be forcing on gay folks?"
When I was talking about forcing their lifestyle onto the community I was again referring to pride parades. Like it or not people don't want to see you walking your partner on a leash. If a straight couple did that there would be just as much of an uproar. I don't know if you read about the firemen who sued for sexual harassment while working at a pride parade. They won.
"Great. Society's opinion doesn't matter. Let your freak flag fly, as they say. Celebrate diversity. But wait...this isn't what you were saying earlier. You've done a complete 180, because earlier you were telling us, basically, to behave ourselves in front of the big bad straight world. I think something about underwear and what others think. I think something about forcing ourselves on others. Hmm."
Ok i misstated. Not only does society's opinion matter but also your opinion of yourself. Have some fucking self respect. If a women sleeps around like many gay men do she would be considered a whore. I'm saying if you want to be accepted and understood put it in a format that the rest of society can understand.
"If this is true then why is it so hard for you to understand why you may not be getting much respect in this thread? At 19 and with 7 posts under your belt do you think you have *earned* the respect you are seeking from us on this topic?"
I'm not getting respect because people don't want to believe that they need to change in order to earn the respect of society or that they need the respect of society to gain equality. There have been responses on both sides and I have gotten many messages from people who agree with me.
Lost_And_Found said^ Except I like the freaky exhibitionism
But the people deciding whether or not you get equal rights do not.
But don't you see how completely unjust that is?
I, personally, am ALL for sitting on the proverbial bus. Screw societal niceties, I'm freakin tired.
and as per your latest point...sweetie, the people holding MY cards DID agree with me and my prancing queen bretheren.
I love my country.
It does not matter how unjust it is... it is the truth.
I think some people are getting their heads bitten off here for the wrong reasons. Our intensions are well. Bio Matty, you have more rights than we gay Americans, no? and is it far-fetched to mention that we have a more influential and politically active religious community?
Look, I don't care about queens and twinks in their underwear dancing. But if those images are hurting our chances for a shorter road to equal rights.... THAT is when I care.
If a segment of the gay community want to go to the extreme just to be different... fine by me. But many people are NOT fine with it. And they use that as ammo to rally their base--that is the point when I begin to care.
I a perfect world we would all be free wot express ourselves in the way we see fit. And I don't think anyone would disagree with that fact on this site.
What I disagree with is when some gays refuse to tone down their behaviors at Pride parades due to the fact that the religious right is using those behaviors to rally their members.
So, we have a few members of the gay community who refuse ti tone down their behavior in public...behaviors which are hurting the image of the gay community. If all of these statements are true... wouldn't those few be a little selfish...wanting to be so different that they end up delaying and damaging the road to full equality? I know I would personally feel horrible..
The public needs to see that gay people are just like straight people. We are similar in all ways except for sexuality... which for me does not represent me complelely as a person. The public needs to see that we are doctors, teachers, soldiers, police officers, businessmen, scientists, etc.
I think right now we may be expecting a little too much from the str8 world. Yes, we need to push the bounderies of what is considered normal; I fear though if we push too much too fast there will be a negative basklash.
What I ask for now...keep the nudity and excessive provocative dancing and skimpy outfits in the clubs...until society is more accepting and we do not have to worry about the fight for equal rights.
That is my main worry. Yes the str8 world has Mardi Gras... and does the same thing as Pride Parades. But our adversaries are not fair-minded people. I fear we have to play their game if we want to come out on top.
I have spent hours and hours obsessively watching televangelists and researching the Religious Right on TV. I probably know more about the religious right than I do the gay community. I know what is out there and how they use the gay community to rally voters.
So, BioMatty... go ahead and have your fun... But I feel we should wait before we party in the USA... at least until the Right has lost its overwhelming influence. I will have absolutely no problem when the time comes... though I admit that I too may have to subtly look the other way when the "tuxedo-bikini" couple walks past me. (pic posted above) lol
Finally, I don't think anyone here wants to purge the drag queens and twinkies. That quote on the plaque... which is one of my fav quotes... seems to be irrelevant in this situtation. Afterall, drag queens and twinks in underwear are not what make up their personality. It is something they do to have fun.
Sum up...please wait to have "excessive" fun (in public... do whatever the Hell you want in clubs/bars lol) until we have more equality or until the Religious right has dies out.
DrobuA (OP name edited-in for clarity): Did you ever stop to think that if we were simply ourselves without shame 365 days a year then we wouldn't have to pick a day to pop the top off the pressurized bottle that is our very identity in a bombastic display of every last nuance of our culture?
As a side, I think you are as afraid of us as the people who have given you this horrible attitude. Your problem is that you lack confidence, so instead of allowing gay folks to be themselves bravely and maybe drag you along with us, you are fighting it because you're still too afraid.
I'm going to go play some old NWA tracks for inspiration now.
On a completely different note, related to the fight for equal rights and protection under the law...
I had a great meeting today with a 65 year old gay man who is serving as a mentor to me in ways I didn't expect.
Anyway, he is such a great inspiration for me about fighting for our rights. I think he helped me today to get a little more in touch with my own passion to remain involved in building those rights with my colleagues here in my neck of the woods.
I think being a little bit angry and open to our emotions while remaining conscious of how those emotions can play out is healthy while we are organizing as a community.
RuggerATX saidDid you ever stop to think that if we were simply ourselves without shame 365 days a year then we wouldn't have to pick a day to pop the top off the pressurized bottle that is our very identity in a bombastic display of every last nuance of our culture?
As a side, I think you are as afraid of us as the people who have given you this horrible attitude. Your problem is that you lack confidence, so instead of allowing gay folks to be themselves bravely and maybe drag you along with us, you are fighting it because you're still too afraid.
I'm going to go play some old NWA tracks for inspiration now.
I am me 365 days of the year. Just because dressing in drag, or parading around in a thong is not me does not make me "afriad."
What are you suggesting gay culture is? Are you suggesting that is is so different from the str world that we need a special day to let loose?
Are you saying our gayness id bottled up by the str8 world and we cannot be our true selves?
I'm confused. being gay makes up like 10% of my life and personality. There are other more important and interesting things about me beside the fact that I'm attracted to guys.
I see pride as a chance to rally together and show the world we want to be treated equally.
Actually I can't wait for the day when we wake up and there is no need for GLAAD, HRC, or pride parades, cause on that fine day we will have achieved everything possible for equality.
Am I wrong on my assumptions/views?
I am not afraid to be gay either... my car is plastered with stickers, I have done political work for gay rights and have written a letter to the editor in my local newspaper... I live in a small town and there aren't many Chris careys If people looked hard enough they could easily discover that I am gay. but I don't feel the need to parade it around...I am not ashamed.
RuggerATX saidDid you ever stop to think that if we were simply ourselves without shame 365 days a year then we wouldn't have to pick a day to pop the top off the pressurized bottle that is our very identity in a bombastic display of every last nuance of our culture?
As a side, I think you are as afraid of us as the people who have given you this horrible attitude. Your problem is that you lack confidence, so instead of allowing gay folks to be themselves bravely and maybe drag you along with us, you are fighting it because you're still too afraid.
I'm going to go play some old NWA tracks for inspiration now.
I am me 365 days of the year. Just because dressing in drag, or parading around in a thong is not me does not make me "afriad."
What are you suggesting gay culture is? Are you suggesting that is is so different from the str world that we need a special day to let loose?
Are you saying our gayness id bottled up by the str8 world and we cannot be our true selves?
I'm confused. being gay makes up like 10% of my life and personality. There are other more important and interesting things about me beside the fact that I'm attracted to guys.
I see pride as a chance to rally together and show the world we want to be treated equally.
Actually I can't wait for the day when we wake up and there is no need for GLAAD, HRC, or pride parades, cause on that fine day we will have achieved everything possible for equality.
Am I wrong on my assumptions/views?
I am not afraid to be gay either... my car is plastered with stickers, I have done political work for gay rights and have written a letter to the editor in my local newspaper... I live in a small town and there aren't many Chris careys If people looked hard enough they could easily discover that I am gay. but I don't feel the need to parade it around...I am not ashamed.
Before I even read this I want to point out that I was addressing the original poster. Sorry for the confusion. Now I'm sure I'll read this and have to defend myself anyway.
CJC: Being gay 365 days a year means displaying the same level of affection that straight couples do. That's about it really. The other day I saw a couple of young guys holding hands while walking across a busy mainstream intersection in Austin, TX. I was more proud that day than I was after countless HRC emails or Melissa Etheridge songs or drag floats.
But we don't do this, because too many of us have been beat-down like the original poster. So we wait until our "safe day" on a single "safe street" to concoct elaborate displays and make up for lost time, which of course freaks people out because we popped out of nowhere after being hidden the rest of the year. And while bombastic and shocking displays may be the product of desperation, 19 year old kids shouldn't try and take it away from us until they man up and kiss their guy at the airport.
This premise assumes there is a reason behind limiting our rights. If only we acted more like them (Mardie Gras != Pride Parade) we would have full rights. But there is no reason behind this. Ignorance is behind this. Inherent in this reasoning is if we act more like ignorant people we will enjoy the full rights of ignorant people.
I am not ignorant, nor do I have any desire to be ignorant. You children can be good little boys and see what it gets you. It wont get you equal rights.
Right now, we are asking for marriage (rallies for which I have yet to see anyone prancing in their underwear). We cannot say any more clearly "hey, we are just like you. We even want to have our families recognized like yours" than we are through the demand for marriage equality. And still our rights are denied.
Hide your sexuality in the closet like we did before Stonewall and you wont gain anything.
DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it? It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself. Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions. Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate. Take a higher road. The reaction I see to often is people being offended that other people don't accept them for who they are. They think that there is nothing wrong with who they are so they try and force their lifestyle onto an unwilling society. In my opinion, they are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with who they are, but my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does your next door neighbor's or you english teacher's. The only opinion that matters is your opinion of yourself. Sometimes the person that it is hardest to be honest with is yourself. Think, is my life the kind of life I want to lead? Can I be better? The answer is always yes. Everyone is human and with human nature comes flaws. I know better than anyone that I have many aspects of my life that need improving, but all I can do is try. Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
Such arrogance. And at such a young age! By age 93 you should be a real charmer. ;-)
DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it? It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself. Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions. Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate. Take a higher road. The reaction I see to often is people being offended that other people don't accept them for who they are. They think that there is nothing wrong with who they are so they try and force their lifestyle onto an unwilling society. In my opinion, they are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with who they are, but my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does your next door neighbor's or you english teacher's. The only opinion that matters is your opinion of yourself. Sometimes the person that it is hardest to be honest with is yourself. Think, is my life the kind of life I want to lead? Can I be better? The answer is always yes. Everyone is human and with human nature comes flaws. I know better than anyone that I have many aspects of my life that need improving, but all I can do is try. Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
Such arrogance. And at such a young age! By age 93 you should be a real charmer. ;-)
I already responded to your opinion of my original post.. where was the rebuttal? Had to go back to my original statement?
DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it? It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself. Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions. Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate. Take a higher road. The reaction I see to often is people being offended that other people don't accept them for who they are. They think that there is nothing wrong with who they are so they try and force their lifestyle onto an unwilling society. In my opinion, they are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with who they are, but my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does your next door neighbor's or you english teacher's. The only opinion that matters is your opinion of yourself. Sometimes the person that it is hardest to be honest with is yourself. Think, is my life the kind of life I want to lead? Can I be better? The answer is always yes. Everyone is human and with human nature comes flaws. I know better than anyone that I have many aspects of my life that need improving, but all I can do is try. Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
Such arrogance. And at such a young age! By age 93 you should be a real charmer. ;-)
I already responded to your opinion of my original post.. where was the rebuttal? Had to go back to my original statement?
The basis of your rebuttal seemed to be gay pride displays. Everything else seemed to have you agreeing with me, backpedaling, or was just too confusing to read.
And I think I addressed the gay pride displays plenty already.
Unless you were simply looking to play some sort of game. Sorry. Not for me.
Uh, here we go again, another "why does the WORLD look down at us".....yawn...yawn. My two cents: changee your negative attitude to a postitive one, live your life with good intentions, instead of bitching - find a solution and don't worry what a x % of the population may or may not think about you. Life really is not all about you.
G0ys saidIf you're tired of being dragged through the proverbial mud with the gay community stubborn, in-your-face approach, just go g0y (if it applies).
It's pretty hard to convince someone to stop being irresponsible when that's how they've been for a substantial amount of time.
-G0y guy
And away we go!
I'll bet a guinea pig poops bigger poops than you.
Who's next? Come on guys...been too long. Have at it.
Historically, the gay rights movement has played both sides of the fence here. Stonewall and sensationalist demonstrations definitely launched it and we had large amounts of success in the 80's and 90's with putting forth more subdued and respected elements of our community.
I wonder if any of the guys here who are anti-Pride really know what a crazy pride looks like... They've become quite tame.
In the end, I think the debate over our rights is linked much more closely to the religious movements here in the U.S., and as they collapse, we see more and more progress. When they get stronger, our progress slows. The idea of a "bunch of twinks dancing around in their underwear" really effecting anything is ridiculous.
DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it? It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself. Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions. Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate..
The African-American metaphor is flawed. Gangster rap was thier pride parade, so-to-speak. While it may have alienated some, it made people pay attention to the real problems of the oppression of that minority. Suburbanites got a fast, albeit nontraditional, education. 20 years later, they're worshipping a black man as the leader of the free world.
I think the race metaphor is an interesting one as well. Many middle Americans do not identify with contemporary Black culture. They visibly dislike some aspects of that style of entertainment. But they would not stand up in society and argue for segregation or against an African-American's right to vote. Unless of course they are actual racists.
Similarly, Americans may not like or identify with our culture, but only the ones who are actually homophobic argue that they we don't deserve the right to sleep together or have partnership benefits.
This premise assumes there is a reason behind limiting our rights. If only we acted more like them (Mardie Gras != Pride Parade) we would have full rights. But there is no reason behind this. Ignorance is behind this. Inherent in this reasoning is if we act more like ignorant people we will enjoy the full rights of ignorant people.
I am not ignorant, nor do I have any desire to be ignorant. You children can be good little boys and see what it gets you. It wont get you equal rights.
Right now, we are asking for marriage (rallies for which I have yet to see anyone prancing in their underwear). We cannot say any more clearly "hey, we are just like you. We even want to have our families recognized like yours" than we are through the demand for marriage equality. And still our rights are denied.
Hide your sexuality in the closet like we did before Stonewall and you wont gain anything.
Okay, fair enough.
But then what to we do about those who use pride parades against us? I'm serious... that wasn't a rhetorical question.
I'm not one to go around saying "fuck you!" So what can I do to ensure pride parades go on sucessfully as before yet the ignorant public is not influenced by the religious right's rhetoric? That is what i care about more than anything... gay to finally be equal under the law. No matter what I do at my local gay activist organization.... I'd never be able to combat how the right uses pride parades.
Do we just ignore them and push foward and keep pride the way it is?
Please understand... my intentions are good. And while I do not care for drag queens--it's simply not my taste--I would fight for anyone who is harassed or physically in danger.
This thread i feel is not meant to insult anyone... just to figure out if we are harming our movement and if the price of that harm is worth it... rather than silencing anyone.
G0ys saidIf you're tired of being dragged through the proverbial mud with the gay community stubborn, in-your-face approach, just go g0y (if it applies).
It's pretty hard to convince someone to stop being irresponsible when that's how they've been for a substantial amount of time.
-G0y guy
No. That is not what this is about. And I doubt many who have blogged against the over exposure at Pride would suddenly adopt the philosophy of g0ys.
If I disagree with something, I'd rather learn about the other side... educate myself a little and find common ground before tuck-tailing and running to the g0y movement... which I believe is crawling with homophobia and chauvinistic ideas about what true "masculinity" is... I find it offensive to women as well.
g0ys appear to have a social conservative belief system. That is one thing I am not--a social consevrative..
G0ys saidIf you're tired of being dragged through the proverbial mud with the gay community stubborn, in-your-face approach, just go g0y (if it applies).
It's pretty hard to convince someone to stop being irresponsible when that's how they've been for a substantial amount of time.
-G0y guy
No. That is not what this is about. And I doubt many who have blogged against the over exposure at Pride would suddenly adopt the philosophy of g0ys.
If I disagree with something, I'd rather learn about the other side... educate myself a little and find common ground before tuck-tailing and running to the g0y movement... which I believe is crawling with homophobia and chauvinistic ideas about what true "masculinity" is... I find it offensive to women as well.
g0ys appear to have a social conservative belief system. That is one thing I am not--a social consevrative..
The only thing g0ys are conserving is condoms and lube. Yay more for us!
People who use pride parades against us are ignoring that sexuality is not unique to queers. They are the same people that are preaching at a church one minute and doing meth with a male escort the next. The things we do in our bedrooms, at the parades, in the clubs are the same things they do in their bedrooms, at their parades, in their clubs, sometimes with the same people while their wives aren't looking.
We do not have full equality because fighting against us gives people political capital. George Bush, Ralph Reed, and their detestable ilk rose to prominence in part because they stood for morality (by which they meant they were for oppression). But they are dinosaurs. The governor of the most conservative state in the union now supports civil unions. Ralph Reed couldn't run for dog catcher. And the GOP is now a big empty tent.
We have never been closer to full civil equality now than we have ever been, and that is in part because people do not believe you should legislate sexual morality. So what do you do when someone uses our parades (which is code for our sexuality) against us? You ignore them. Because when they die their ideology will die with them. If you don't believe me, take a look at some historic poll numbers for gay marriage support.
styrgan saidHistorically, the gay rights movement has played both sides of the fence here. Stonewall and sensationalist demonstrations definitely launched it and we had large amounts of success in the 80's and 90's with putting forth more subdued and respected elements of our community.
I wonder if any of the guys here who are anti-Pride really know what a crazy pride looks like... They've become quite tame.
I actually know that... from what others have told me of course. And I am not anti-Pride at all. My fear is that SOME people at Pride Parades are harming our gay rights fight--though certainly not intentional
I think that last statement is undeniable.
My questions is... what do we do about it? Look the other way? set rules against public nudity? Increase damage control and/or PR? Tell the religious right to fuck off?
An other alternative to pride parades, since being ourselves 24/7/365 still isn't an option for too many of us, is to shut them down and take our culture to Carnival and Mardi Gras.
Tough to argue against gay exhibitionism while wearing a sexy Pan costume now isn't it?
Look. Prudes are prudes. The last thing we should be doing is accommodating them. Their irrational fears should be none of our concern. It's only when we hide that their fears gain enough momentum to oppress us.
There is enormous part of straight society that is every bit as outrageous as what you see at Pride. I wonder if their numbers would outnumber the entire gay population if they all went out and paraded at once?
At Mardi Gras in New Orleans alone in 2005 there were over a million that attended this straight outrageous sexually charged parade.
People who use pride parades against us are ignoring that sexuality is not unique to queers.
We have never been closer to full civil equality now than we have ever been, and that is in part because people do not believe you should legislate sexual morality. So what do you do when someone uses our parades (which is code for our sexuality) against us? You ignore them. Because when they die their ideology will die with them. If you don't believe me, take a look at some historic poll numbers for gay marriage support.
I just remembered something. Several years ago I was on Focus on the Family or Family Research Counsel's website. I read a document describing what gay people do in bed.
A large percentage of the gay people polled have eatten feces. I could only imagine this was a reference to rimming.
The religious right will always find something to attack us with and will twist things around no matter what we do.
Understand though... it is hard to realize this for some people... like me
I like where this thread has gone after a few hours.
I spent so many years scared, learned so much about myself and the enemy. I know that I will never have equal rights if I agree to do things on the enemy's terms. The enemy will always have their country club with their "whites only" membership until they get their ass handed to them in court. Dressing in plaid pants and alligator sweaters won't change who I am, and won't convince them I deserve to be there.
Er, ah, I forgot...we were talking about gay rights. Same wardrobe issues.
Sweat saidThe community is due for some self-examination, and as long as it blames others (straights, the media, etc), progress is going to be very, very slow.
Actually, the community has engaged in self-examination in this respect many times. There was the Mattachine Society which required everyone to dress respectably (in coat and tie) for meetings at which psychiatrists pontificated about the way homosexuality is a disorder, not a crime or sin. (This emerged after Harry Hay, the evil socialist, was kicked out of the group for being so anti- American, pro-sexual and, you know, gay.)
That didn't work. So the gay liberation movement arrived in the '70s and everyone went wild. Then the so-called assimilationist movement emerged with the publication of books like "After the Ball." They (literally) urged everyone to attend gay pride parades in the same suits the Mattachine folks wore. That hasn't worked either.
Acting and looking weird is not why gay people continue to experience discrimination. It's because religion remains the basis of morality for most Americans and most churches consider homosexuality an "abomination." Your wardrobe is not going to make buttfucking and cocksucking between two men look more acceptable to these people.
This continual, cyclical, ever recurring argument that "reeling" in the outrageous is going to make a significant difference in tolerance is just advocacy of a different kind of closet. It's really about wanting the rest of us to change so those uncomfortable with their sexual identity will feel less humiliated.
Don't you think that after a century of unsuccessfully testing this argument, it might be time to scrap it?
styrgan saidHistorically, the gay rights movement has played both sides of the fence here. Stonewall and sensationalist demonstrations definitely launched it and we had large amounts of success in the 80's and 90's with putting forth more subdued and respected elements of our community.
I wonder if any of the guys here who are anti-Pride really know what a crazy pride looks like... They've become quite tame.
I actually know that... from what others have told me of course. And I am not anti-Pride at all. My fear is that SOME people at Pride Parades are harming our gay rights fight--though certainly not intentional
cjcscuba1984 saidI just remembered something. Several years ago I was on Focus on the Family or Family Research Counsel's website. I read a document describing what gay people do in bed.
A large percentage of the gay people polled have eatten feces. I could only imagine this was a reference to rimming.
The religious right will always find something to attack us with and will twist things around no matter what we do.
Understand though... it is hard to realize this for some people... like me
There is nothing to twist there. They did not poll anyone, they just made shit up. Both of those organizations are run by bigots and their entire membership is bigots. They are the ones who insist we are pedophiles, rapists, and other such nonsense. They make up facts to suit their agenda: frightening people into believing they are true, frightening people to believe the only thing saving them from us is them. Wont you give generously?
Ignore them. When they die they will take their hate with them.
cjcscuba> The religious right will always find something to attack us with and will twist things around no matter what we do.
Right. As Obscenewish pointed out, the Mattachine society got nowhere by dressing up in suits and ties (and skirts and heels for lesbians) when they pioneered gay marches in the 1960s. (Nonetheless kudos for their efforts, especially in those times.)
|| The Mattachine Committee on Picketing and Other Lawful Demonstrations, Regulations for Picketing. “Precepts: Picketing is not an occasion for an assertion of personality, individuality, ego, rebellion, generalized non-conformity or anti-conformity. It is an occasion for organized effort. … Men will wear suits, white shirts, ties; women will wear dresses.”
They may reationalize to themselves and others that they hate us because we have drag queens and leather daddies in our ranks, or because we (allegedly) molest young children, or because the "gay agenda" will destroy the "sanctity of marriage" and the Army.
As if the existence of drag queens and leather daddies (and even of child molesters were it categorically true) somehow makes it right to hate the entire group and deny people their rights.
The simple truth is that these bigots hate us for one reason: because we exist. All else is commentary.
Caesarea4 saidcjcscuba> The religious right will always find something to attack us with and will twist things around no matter what we do.
Right. As Obscenewish pointed out, the Mattachine society got nowhere by dressing up in suits and ties (and skirts and heels for lesbians) when they pioneered gay marches in the 1960s. (Nonetheless kudos for their efforts, especially in those times.)
|| The Mattachine Committee on Picketing and Other Lawful Demonstrations, Regulations for Picketing. “Precepts: Picketing is not an occasion for an assertion of personality, individuality, ego, rebellion, generalized non-conformity or anti-conformity. It is an occasion for organized effort. … Men will wear suits, white shirts, ties; women will wear dresses.”
They may reationalize to themselves and others that they hate us because we have drag queens and leather daddies in our ranks, or because we (allegedly) molest young children, or because the "gay agenda" will destroy the "sanctity of marriage" and the Army.
As if the existence of drag queens and leather daddies (and even of child molesters where it categorically true) somehow makes it right to hate the entire group and deny people their rights.
The simple truth is that these bigots hate us for one reason: because we exist. All else is commentary.
Hey wait. Those homos look great. Very sharp. There should be a contingent at the gay pride parades to show our cultural breadth. As long as we're needing those parades, that is.
Another interesting comparator would be the women's rights movement.
An aim of that movement is, of course, trying to stop women being treated like sexual objects. So there's no skin on display!
The gay rights movement has an opposite problem. Much of wider society is not comfortable with expressions of same sex sexuality. It is thought to be offensive, or off putting, or funny.
Pride is in your face, as a remedy to an otherwise 'closet' sexuality.
One issue that does bother me though, is that the emphasis on sexual liberation in the gay community may be connected to an emphasis on physical beauty. Again, the female emancipation movement shows a contrasting approach.
Too much money, too much education, and too many gay people grew up with privilege to have these things. That's the difference between gay people and people of color. We don't NEED each other to survive - historically people of color did - they HAD to work 16 hour days and needed a neighbor to watch the kids when they got home from school. They had to stick together because money was tight - college wasn't an option. For (a lot of) us, we have enough money, education and credentials where it wouldn't matter if we ever met another gay person - we don't need to. We take care of ourselves.
So what's left? Judging other gay people. We look down on other gay people who aren't as accomplished, as good looking, as affluent, or who don't dress as well as we do. That's the infuriating thing after coming out - after all that soul searching and hoping to find a group of people who've shared similar experiences, you come out to find a group that's even nastier and more callous than the people you did everything you could to escape from. There is so much envy, regret and hostility among us - nobody is anybody's type. None of the other gay guys are what you had hoped they would be or were expecting. That pisses a lot of guys off when all they see are the same stereotypes come to life over, and over and over again. What was the point of coming out? Being with a woman would probably have been pretty close to this.
And it's embarrassing. A lot of gay guys I talked to had wished they never came out in the first place after discovering the maturity level, attitude and lack of relationship quality they found in the gay community. And yes, I know, maybe they were looking at/for the wrong guys, but when you're talking about a group that only makes up 2% of the male population, come on - how many times can you split up the gay community? There's not a whole hell of a lot to choose from. And the larger the city, the higher the expectations they have - it's like you can never win.
This is why our rights will never come to light. We have a LOT of unfinished business (and rage) with other gay people we have to take care of first. If gay men don't even care if other guys catch HIV or other diseases because he doesn't bother to ask the other guys name and health (vice versa) what does that say about how we feel about each other? If we can't even care enough about another gay man's health then how will we look as a group demanding rights from the rest of society when we can't even get validation as human beings from each other - unless we are attractive enough, young enough, wealthy enough, or can do something for you?
Alright.....you bunch of cry babies will get their way. THIS TIME ONLY. No derogatory terms such as breeders will be used to describe how I feel about the straight community. Truce? -I too for many years now have had HUGE issues with OUR Gay community acting like daft baffoons in these silly Gay "pride" parades. Running around like a bunch of sophmoric morons for all of the world to see via TV news does nothing but hurt and demean us. Let's face it, the media DOES NOT focus on just we average everyday gay men and women who are contributing to society by paying our taxes, and yet are denied the same rights as the Br....as the straight community. Since moving to this hillbilly state of VA, I have heard nothing but negative and nasty remarks about the Gay community when ever the news show these idiots parading around in leather and or pink boas and what not. Even now with this Irish holiday coming up....I have already heard comments at work on how we are sure to hear about how the ""fags" want to parade around in drag at the St Pats day parade...etc!" I have already gotten into several violent arguements over this. These kind of displays are not only demeaning, but rather tasteless and crude. They do nothing but make us look like flamboyant idiots who are not to be taken seriously. I have been taken to task by some of you cry babies for using offensive terms to describe the straight community. You say my attitude alienates us more. This kind of public display of eroticism and feministic or "faggy" (as the straights say) acts that go on in these "pride" parades alienates us FAR more. So come on.....let's have it. LOL!!! I'm waiting for the deluge of nasty responses from everyone. Cheers, Keith
Maybe I should post this question as a new thread...
I'm curious to find more guys on here (I already know they exist) that are doing something to advocate for LGBT rights.
For those that are complaining the loudest about the community, I ask because I wonder:
What do you do to help build rights for other LGBT people? How are you making the community stronger or more improved?
Or, maybe, are you looking for something to do as a volunteer to help achieve equal rights for all LGBT people?
The gay community needs you - all of you. Even the gay folks that are pissed off about the community. Even those that feel jaded, cynical, frustrated. We need all of you. NOW. I guarantee that your voice is needed and your energy can be better transferred to the cause.
For me, it's been a career choice, so, my goal is to recruit more people to the cause. Anyone want to be connected on this issue? Just let me know and I'll find someone in your area that could use more help. Or, there's a lotta work that can be done solely online in the US.
First this debate has been really cool, because it's been so civilised and on a really important gay issue, so lets try and avoid a flame war.
Second, I understand the argument that if we just try and fit in, we'll be accepted, but if we act differently to wider society, then we will never be accepted, but bear in mind these points.
1) Conservative society views homosexuality as an issue of sexual morality. Sex is unacceptable outside heterosexual marriage. That's the end of that argument. However hard you try to 'fit in' you will not be accepted.
2) Conservatives are increasingly in the minority. Even in America. Why bother trying to impress them, when they are losing their grip on society?
RPMSoccer saidMaybe I should post this question as a new thread...
I'm curious to find more guys on here (I already know they exist) that are doing something to advocate for LGBT rights.
For those that are complaining the loudest about the community, I ask because I wonder:
What do you do to help build rights for other LGBT people? How are you making the community stronger or more improved?
Or, maybe, are you looking for something to do as a volunteer to help achieve equal rights for all LGBT people?
The gay community needs you - all of you. Even the gay folks that are pissed off about the community. Even those that feel jaded, cynical, frustrated. We need all of you. NOW. I guarantee that your voice is needed and your energy can be better transferred to the cause.
For me, it's been a career choice, so, my goal is to recruit more people to the cause. Anyone want to be connected on this issue? Just let me know and I'll find someone in your area that could use more help. Or, there's a lotta work that can be done solely online in the US.
I'm glad you included those of us, the Gay folks "pissed off at the community." How nice of you. These daft fools who get on these floats and parade themselves around in such an "in your face" attitude towards the world is a very, (thankfully), small portion of the Gay community! However...this small daft group of OUR community is the one that is shown in the media. What else do you think the sraight community is going to think? They think WE are all like that. Despite my disdain for this unrefined and crude sub-culture of OURS, I would still physically and verbally defend my far,far distant cousin of OUR community for their rights to do this retarded and embarrassing exhibition. -Keith
First this debate has been really cool, because it's been so civilised and on a really important gay issue, so lets try and avoid a flame war.
Thanks for the babysitting tip. I don't need your approval. You get from me what you give. You throw a stone, I'll throw a boulder and smash your skull. I have already said that I would stay on target. Now if you want a distractive "flame war" reply to this in an arrogant manner again. -Keith
Sweat saidOne other theme that runs through this discussion is the view of some that that immature and exhibitionistic behavior equals gay. In other words, they're saying that those of us who find such stuff unfortunate are not as in touch with our gayness as those who engage in it. I can assure you, I am repressing nothing and have no deep, hidden desire to dance in public in my undies.
And then those same people criticize others for not boldly coming out and proclaiming to the world "these are my people."
Don't you see the connection?.
Here, here! I agree! I am as GAY as anyone. But there is no hidden desire to be acting like daft fools in public and feeding the religious flames -Cheers, Keith
Lost_And_Found said^ Deal, what do you think of the two points about conservatives not accepting gays even if they conform to conservative values?
2 very good points. 1) Conservative society views homosexuality as an issue of sexual morality. Sex is unacceptable outside heterosexual marriage. That's the end of that argument. However hard you try to 'fit in' you will not be accepted. ---Some do view it that way. But showing these images of this lewd and erotic behaviour IN PUBLIC, only enforces this immorality they feel WE are ALL about. It makes them believe we are about nothing but sex.
2) Conservatives are increasingly in the minority. Even in America. Why bother trying to impress them, when they are losing their grip on society? ---Yes, I do believe that conservatism is dying out a little bit. However it is still TOO big and powerful in this country for us to just let loose with this behavior. What happens in the coming years if other assholes like bush are elected again to the House, Senate, and Presidency?!? Then the whole UGLY side of THEIR morality will come back to life. And we will have fed them more ammunition.
There is no point in debating why people display their sexuality at Pride events. It's not going to stop. People are people and this goes on in virtually every culture where there are laws to protect freedom of expression, whether it's on TV or not.
Further, another given is that cultural conservatives will try to derail the conversation about choice and immorality.
RPMSoccer saidThere is no point in debating why people display their sexuality at Pride events. It's not going to stop. People are people and this goes on in virtually every culture where there are laws to protect freedom of expression, whether it's on TV or not.
Further, another given is that cultural conservatives will try to derail the conversation about choice and immorality.
This is reality.
There is always a point to debating. It may open eyes up on both sides. I do understand where they are coming from. (Those in these parades.) Many, including myself, feel so repressed in not being 100% comfortable in holding hands in public, kissing in public,....etc., that you just want to do it! I get it. But this behaviour of outrageous sexul acts and manner of dress is vulgar and tastless. That being said...I'm no prude either. Behind closed doors, I am as wild as the next person. (Be them Gay or straight) -Keith
I guess neither of us are the type of guy to dress up in sequins and dance on a float.
Personally, I do like it that other people make such a public display of their sexuality. I'm impressed at the balls it takes. Plus, I think conservative sexual morality basically f**ks with your head. It certaintly did me a whole lot of no good, so I'm happy when people fight it - however outrageously.
I read yet again the original OP. This debate has been going on within the community for as long as I remember.
I will summarize what I have learned over the 22+ years I have been interacting with the gay community.
- Rights for gays is usually achieved through the courts, not through public opinion;
- The media will focus on the more entertaining and "out there" aspects of gays. The media's purpose is to boost sales as much as inform the public;
- Dressing up in women's clothes in public offends some people, even many people;
- Dressing up in women's clothes in public has no correlation to self-respect, neither does walking around on the last Sunday in June in underwear, or leather chaps;
- the die-hard homophobes are usually coming from a very conservative religious viewpoint of life (notice I did not focus on just Christians), they will not accept gays just because we start appearing in more sober traditional clothing on pride day;
- the best way for gays to be more accepted in society is to increase the visibility of gays in everyday life. The most effective way of doing that is for gay people to come out to their family and friends, and if possible at work;
- coming out is a very difficult process that may result in the loss of people's friendship or love that you had taken for granted. Life is hard, and this for gay people is one of the hardest aspects of life.
SurrealLife saidI read yet again the original OP. This debate has been going on within the community for as long as I remember.
I will summarize what I have learned over the 22+ years I have been interacting with the gay community.
- Rights for gays is usually achieved through the courts, not through public opinion;
- The media will focus on the more entertaining and "out there" aspects of gays. The media's purpose is to boost sales as much as inform the public;
- Dressing up in women's clothes in public offends some people, even many people;
- Dressing up in women's clothes in public has no correlation to self-respect, neither does walking around on the last Sunday in June in underwear, or leather chaps;
- the die-hard homophobes are usually coming from a very conservative religious viewpoint of life (notice I did not focus on just Christians), they will not accept gays just because we start appearing in more sober traditional clothing on pride day;
- the best way for gays to be more accepted in society is to increase the visibility of gays in everyday life. The most effective way of doing that is for gay people to come out to their family and friends, and if possible at work;
- coming out is a very difficult process that may result in the loss of people's friendship or love that you had taken for granted. Life is hard, and this for gay people is one of the hardest aspects of life.
That is all I have to say about this topic.
Wow...I couldn't agree with you less. You seem to think that this lewd and tastless public behaviour is acceptable? Yikes!
DuluthMN saidToo much money, too much education, and too many gay people grew up with privilege to have these things. That's the difference between gay people and people of color. We don't NEED each other to survive - historically people of color did - they HAD to work 16 hour days and needed a neighbor to watch the kids when they got home from school. They had to stick together because money was tight - college wasn't an option. For (a lot of) us, we have enough money, education and credentials where it wouldn't matter if we ever met another gay person - we don't need to. We take care of ourselves.
So what's left? Judging other gay people. We look down on other gay people who aren't as accomplished, as good looking, as affluent, or who don't dress as well as we do. That's the infuriating thing after coming out - after all that soul searching and hoping to find a group of people who've shared similar experiences, you come out to find a group that's even nastier and more callous than the people you did everything you could to escape from. There is so much envy, regret and hostility among us - nobody is anybody's type. None of the other gay guys are what you had hoped they would be or were expecting. That pisses a lot of guys off when all they see are the same stereotypes come to life over, and over and over again. What was the point of coming out? Being with a woman would probably have been pretty close to this.
And it's embarrassing. A lot of gay guys I talked to had wished they never came out in the first place after discovering the maturity level, attitude and lack of relationship quality they found in the gay community. And yes, I know, maybe they were looking at/for the wrong guys, but when you're talking about a group that only makes up 2% of the male population, come on - how many times can you split up the gay community? There's not a whole hell of a lot to choose from. And the larger the city, the higher the expectations they have - it's like you can never win.
This is why our rights will never come to light. We have a LOT of unfinished business (and rage) with other gay people we have to take care of first. If gay men don't even care if other guys catch HIV or other diseases because he doesn't bother to ask the other guys name and health (vice versa) what does that say about how we feel about each other? If we can't even care enough about another gay man's health then how will we look as a group demanding rights from the rest of society when we can't even get validation as human beings from each other - unless we are attractive enough, young enough, wealthy enough, or can do something for you?
Why are scared of being associated with drag queens and fem bots? Lord, stop living in a heteronormative world!
Pride Parades get attention because it is where the marginalized get together to celebrate. Mardi Gras, St. Patty's day, Spring Break, none get covered nor is their behavior nearly as moralized on media sources as conservatives do gay pride or try to create an over-arching "sexual deviant" atmosphere towards gays.
styrgan saidHistorically, the gay rights movement has played both sides of the fence here. Stonewall and sensationalist demonstrations definitely launched it and we had large amounts of success in the 80's and 90's with putting forth more subdued and respected elements of our community.
I wonder if any of the guys here who are anti-Pride really know what a crazy pride looks like... They've become quite tame.
I actually know that... from what others have told me of course. And I am not anti-Pride at all. My fear is that SOME people at Pride Parades are harming our gay rights fight--though certainly not intentional
I think that last statement is undeniable.
...answers please
Did you read my previous post??
I'm denying it!!!
"In the end, I think the debate over our rights is linked much more closely to the religious movements here in the U.S., and as they collapse, we see more and more progress. When they get stronger, our progress slows. The idea of a "bunch of twinks dancing around in their underwear" really effecting anything is ridiculous."
Yes I agree with everything you say. But what I am questioning... and ovbiously have no set answer to... IS the religious movement using the more "express" gay guys as their ammo to influence their supporters?
I said it was undeniable becuase I have seen many sites adovcating anti-gay positions based on pictures posted from Pride Parades.
The other question I ask is, will it matter if Pride disappears? Will the religious right find something else wrong with us or make something else up?
I have a feeling the asnwer to that last question is yes. An that answer would then negate my original fear that expressive gay people are harming our chances of a "quicker" road to equality.
Understand... that is all i want. I want to be treated equally under the law. I what the religious right to lose it's grip on our society. But if we are harming those processes...I would be upset. I have come to the conclusion that the Right will do anything to demonize us. I just wish we had a more respectable gay figure in the eyes of the country.
I donate to HRC but really don't care for Joe "Salami." I feel he is weak and polarizing ad a little too extreme to be a front-runner for the gay community. I have seen him get in yelling matched with the other side.
Anyways. I suppose I'd be a lot more comfortable if we had a recognizable leader... one that str8 and glbt people could identify with. Not to mention the fact that the gay rights movement is spread out and unorganized... look at all of the different organizations: HRC, GLAAD, Task Force, Lamda Legal, GLSEN, PFLAG, etc.
my mind has shifted... just do excet me to go to pride in my briefs... I think I have already done enough damage already!
Pinny saidWhy are scared of being associated with drag queens and fem bots? Lord, stop living in a heteronormative world!.
Side note... what exactly do you mean by that sentence? I don't mind being associated with drag queens...but I don't identify with them either.Not to say I don't identify with gay culture.
Musclequest> this small daft group of OUR community is the one that is shown in the media. What else do you think the sraight community is going to think? They think WE are all like that.
Like SurrealLife, I also remember this debate raging 20 years ago. I think it had more validity back then. There were fewer 24-hour news channels. I don't really remember the big-3 covering pride parades (which maybe Keith and others would view as a good thing) and then I remember CNN showing about 6.3 seconds... of, you guessed it, the most outrageous thing the cameraman could find.
Back in the 1970s, there were no gay characters on TV (let alone gay channels). Actually, the one exception I can think of is Jody (Billy Crystal) on Soap - and he was a minor role and in an institution.
What I'm getting at is that back in the 1980s and before, the only exposure many people had to gay people was that 6.3 seconds. There weren't many (if any?) out celebrities. Gay pride parades were just about our only ambassadors to the world.
I think a lot has changed over the last 20-30 years. WE, personally and collectively, are a lot more visible. We have gay olympic gold-medal winners (not just rumors that Louganis is gay). We have out professional athletes (even if only after they retire). We have out politicians and clergymen. We have movies about us that are mainstream (and with openly gay people winning oscars and making speeches). We're pretty much everywhere.
Today, the networks cover gay pride parades a little more, and maybe those 6 seconds have been expanded to 20 and also show some "normal" people.
So forgive me if I don't understand why anyone in this day and age would stereotype all gay people based on 6.2 seconds of footage showing drag queens, leather daddies or people in undies in public.
Really. Would anyone seriously suggest that Jews shouldn't be bankers because it reinforces the stereotype that Jews control the world economy?
Maybe African Americans should avoid sports lest we think that's all they can do? (I was going to say something about everytime I see a black guy on TV he's an athlete... but then I just remembered that our president is black. I think this comment was more "correct" 20-30 years ago than today. Still, would anyone recommend that black people not eat watermelon or fried chicken in public lest they reinforce that stereotype?!)
I think, as I said previously, that anyone who is against us because of what they see for 6.2 seconds is just someone who needed a pretense to rationalize and justify their hate. They don't hate us because of those 6.2 seconds but because we exist. If every gay guy in the world dressed up in a 3 piece suit (and lesbians in evening gowns and heels), they would still hate us for what we are rather than what we do or don't wear.
The irony is that often (not always) the criticism that some people should be less "out there" comes from those who aren't out there at all. Just maybe the answer isn't that "those queers" should be less "out there" but that "normal queers" should be more out.
Musclequest saidWow...I couldn't agree with you less. You seem to think that this lewd and tastless[sic] public behaviour is acceptable? Yikes!
It is funny that you would demand people to not impose their sexual morality on you but then impose your own on others.
Why is that behavior not acceptable? It is the same behavior heterosexuals indulge in in public, is it equally not acceptable for them?
Wow..You are going to come after me? Be prepared. OK How do I demand anything of anyone? There is nothing moral about prancing around in sexually provocative dress, and acting sexual in the public eye be it Gay or straight. It is not normal in any societal etiquette.
And just when, you stupid little fuckwad, did I ever say it was acceptable for heterosexuals to do the same thing?!? Read the posts you fucking moron!!
It is lewd and tasteless. And when the media is there the mindless drones of the religious moronacy latches on to this and it feeds their predjudices.
Stick to the points being made you little turd, and we can all have a healthy debate. Otherwise this will turn into...what's it called.....ah yes, a flame war. For which everyone will agree they don't want me involved in one. And believe me YOU don't. -Keith
Ooohh. I just remembered something else that I think some people in this thread should consider.
Gaybowl 8, the national flag football tournament, was held in Salt Lake City back in October. For the first time, it gained attention from the local (straight) media. Here's the link, which includes a short video that was aired on local TV:
Isn't this the dream come true? Butch gay guys (350 of us) playing football on TV! What could possibly be a better ambassador to those homophobes who (want to) believe that we're all a bunch of "freaks"?
Now read the commentary on the talk-back page. I'd say some of those comments would have been the same had we been playing in drag or chaps... or even molesting little boys on the field.
Do they hate us because we're butch? Better football players than they are? Do they hate us because we wear Jerseys... or drag or leather? Or because we exist and dare to not hide that we are gay?
Caesarea4 saidMusclequest> this small daft group of OUR community is the one that is shown in the media. What else do you think the sraight community is going to think? They think WE are all like that.
I think, as I said previously, that anyone who is against us because of what they see for 6.2 seconds is just someone who needed a pretense to rationalize and justify their hate. They don't hate us because of those 6.2 seconds but because we exist. If every gay guy in the world dressed up in a 3 piece suit (and lesbians in evening gowns and heels), they would still hate us for what we are rather than what we do or don't wear.
The irony is that often (not always) the criticism that some people should be less "out there" comes from those who aren't out there at all. Just maybe the answer isn't that "those queers" should be less "out there" but that "normal queers" should be more out.
Your last paragraph is strange to me. I'm a HUGE critic of these ridiculous parades and how it hands the straight community more fuel for their fire. I'm out to friends, family, work. I now live in a rural section of VA amoungst a bunch of RWcNs (Right Wing christian Nazis) How can I be out anymore then living my life as any other NORMAL person does? Tell me. What should I be doing? Prancing around in lewd attire upon a float? Is that really meaningful and constructive? What are you doing other than writing way too long responses and opinions on these threads. (Really dude, they are obviously well thought out and insightful. But waaaay too long.) -Cheers, Keith
Is one long post better/worse than 5 shorter ones? (:
Note that I said "often" and stressed "not always". Clearly you don't fall into that category. But others, including some who have commented here, do.
For once, I'll be brief: Are we better off trying to convince the invisible "normal gays" to come out rather than talking about getting the "out there gays" to be less out there so they can't be used as a pretense for hate that would exist regardless of what they do...?
Should the gay football players seek to avoid mainstream TV exposure in the future so that they don't serve as a pretense and outlet for the hatists?
DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better?
The problem with this reasoning is that it is based on assumption and not fact. Homosexuals have been harassed, persecuted and killed for centuries before there was ever a gay parade. The number one reason that homosexuals are persecuted is because Religious and Political Ideologies. Stop dabbling in stereotypes and just study history - the history of homosexuals in particular. Obscenewish already pretty much covered the faulty reasoning of stereotype. It is the hatred that creates the stereotype, not the other way around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobic_propaganda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobic_propaganda#Nazi_GermanyNazi Germany Political attitude towards homosexual people in Nazi era of German history was based on the assumption that homosexuals are destroying German nation and are "enemies" and "sexual degenerates". Historian Erwin J. Haeberle in his work "Swastika, Pink Triangle and Yellow Star: The Destruction of Sexology and the Persecution of Homosexuals in Nazi Germany" dates the first appearance of this political attitude in Nazi party to May 14, 1928, long before 1933, when Nazi party came to the power.
Even in the various communist revolutions, gays were persecuted not for religious reasons, but because they were decadent or affluent and "against nature" .. basically if someone hates homosexuals, they will find a reason to justify it. Persecution of homosexuals has little to do with reason and more to do with fear and ignorance.
Oh, and apparently it is the well dressed and "normal" acting homosexuals that are the most "dangerous"
Caesarea4 saidIs one long post better/worse than 5 shorter ones? (:
Should the gay football players seek to avoid mainstream TV exposure in the future so that they don't serve as a pretense and outlet for the hatists?
No I do not think they should avoid the media at all. That is POSITIVE exposure. They are just a bunch of guys who happen to be gay. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING as these bloody lunatics do acting lewd, dressing sexually provocative and inappropriate in public!! Straights acting this way is equally tasteless and lewd. -Keith
DrobUA saidI want to hear some other opinions They think that there is nothing wrong with who they are so they try and force their lifestyle onto an unwilling society. In my opinion, they are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with who they are, but my opinion doesn't matter. Neither does your next door neighbor's or you english teacher's. The only opinion that matters is your opinion of yourself.
So what is it? does your opinion matter or not? You say gays should try to 'conform' somehow but then say the opinions of other don't matter - why then conform? You say that your opinion doesn't matter, but then it is is the only one that does matter
Musclequest> That is POSITIVE exposure. They are just a bunch of guys who happen to be gay. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING as these bloody lunatics do acting lewd, dressing sexually provocative and inappropriate in public!! Straights acting this way is equally tasteless and lewd.
Well, I agree with you. But that makes it the same thing. Straight people do "tasteless and lewd" things at Mardi-Gras and elsewhere. At pride parades you have similar people doing similar things - it just so happens that they are gay.
There's a parallel: Straight football players... gay football players = football players who happen to be gay. Straight partiers... gay partiers = partiers who happen to be gay.
Now while you and I and most people might agree that gay football players on TV is good publicity, let's take a look at some of the reactions:
|| Hey we are going to have a "Straight Bowl" do you think we'll get on KSL too?? If not that is just a hate crime. It also is sooooooo bigoted!!
People similarly pretend there should be a "Straight pride march", no?
|| this particular bowl should be... The Fruit Bowl.
|| If you act on the [gay] urge- you are out [of the church]. Just like if you have extra marital sex, kill someone, or sympathize with apostates...
So these football players, who just happen to be gay, are just like adulterer and murderers?
|| Why Does KSL give this sort of culture loaded with deviates, perverts and other undesirables, especially with Proposition 8 on California's ballot such positive exposure?
See? Even us respectable and "normal" football players who happen to be gay are still "deviates", "perverts" and "undesireables".
|| I am appalled that KSL would air this story. Of all the stories KSL could fill their airtime with, to pick one that legitimatizes the gay agenda is astounding.
|| Many more stories like this, and I'll be turning my viewing loyalty away from channel 5 to a news organization which does not have an agenda of destroying family values.
See? Even us normal football players who just happen to be gay... are trying our best to destroy "family values".
|| it wasn't so nice to have the kids see this on the news tonight! Sly way of attacking the family again.
|| These people are doing everything they can to put the spotlight on themselves, if [removed] then keep it to yourself, you don't see anyone reporting on "straight" flag football games.
|| don't hang this sort of thing in our faces and where our kids can see it.
See? Gay football players are as much guilty of "flaunting it" as the "freaks" at the pride marches.
Imagine what some of the comments - which were removed in their entirety by the moderators - said. Oh, yeah, and of course there was the accusation that someone at the news station must be secretly gay for airing this....
|| What would happen in NAMBLA had a football day? It wouldn't be tolerated for a minute! Homosexual may be kind, unjudgemental, and claim they love Jesus, but their lifestyle is wrong!!!
When they say "lifestyle", they're not talking about being a "leather daddy" or a "drag queen" or a "bear"or a "twink" or even a "RealJock". They're talking about men having sex with other men.
|| My issue is them calling evil good.
Ultimately that's the issue. Not what we wear or how we behave, but that we are - in their small minds - "evil". They hate us because we exist.
Caesarea4 saidMusclequest> That is POSITIVE exposure. They are just a bunch of guys who happen to be gay. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING as these bloody lunatics do acting lewd, dressing sexually provocative and inappropriate in public!! Straights acting this way is equally tasteless and lewd.
Well, I agree with you. But that makes it the same thing. Straight people do "tasteless and lewd" things at Mardi-Gras and elsewhere. At pride parades you have similar people doing similar things - it just so happens that they are gay.
Ultimately that's the issue. Not what we wear or how we behave, but that we are - in their small minds - "evil". They hate us because we exist.
"They hate us because we exist?" Really? That's what you think? Could not disagree with you more. Seriously... for as obviously intelligent as you are, I am shocked that you think that's the reason. I have covered this in my postings adnauseam. I can't make you see any other way. Nor you w/ me. Does anyone else out there want to take this phrase,: "Ultimately that's the issue. Not what we wear or how we behave, but that we are - in their small minds - "evil". They hate us because we exist." and its author to task? PLEASE?!? -Keith
RuggerATX saidCJC: Being gay 365 days a year means displaying the same level of affection that straight couples do. That's about it really. The other day I saw a couple of young guys holding hands while walking across a busy mainstream intersection in Austin, TX. I was more proud that day than I was after countless HRC emails or Melissa Etheridge songs or drag floats.
But we don't do this, because too many of us have been beat-down like the original poster. So we wait until our "safe day" on a single "safe street" to concoct elaborate displays and make up for lost time, which of course freaks people out because we popped out of nowhere after being hidden the rest of the year. And while bombastic and shocking displays may be the product of desperation, 19 year old kids shouldn't try and take it away from us until they man up and kiss their guy at the airport.
(pardon the late edit)
How, again, does society not matter? I saw an awful lot of you bashing DrobUA for having the audacity to be--gasp--young in one of your responses to him, but his message is at least consistent. It looks like you'd rather attack him on a personal level than address the issue at hand.
Whether you guys would like to accept it or not, homosexuality has generally been reviled throughout history. Let's not try to bring up the Roman argument, as even then it was only cool to be a top and sodomize a chosen young boy under your protection.
If society doesn't matter, then we wouldn't have fought--and lost--the battle against Proposition 8. You can argue all you want that the Religious Right unfairly influenced the vote by playing on people's fears, but that wouldn't have worked if a majority of voters in California didn't have those fears to begin with.
Our message was that gays deserved fundamental human rights. People responded. They played on fear: your children will be taught about gay marriage early on, and they might catch gay, ohmigod! As absurd as it is, that's the sort of fearmongering that brought people out to the voting booths, and there, a proven majority decided to fight against gay rights.
It's not about being young, its about not seeing the wider picture here.
Pride parades are a pretty NEW occurrence - hatred of homosexuality spans centuries, millennia even.
So again, you keep spouting your bullshit about how society hates gays because of pride parades and each and every time I'll listen to you, let you speak, and think 'ignorant dipshit'.
Society hates us because we exist. Go ahead and 'take me to task' but quite frankly...if you're asking OTHERS to refute that statement I suspect its because YOU can't.
I see what you're saying, I really do. Providing the firing squad with the bullets they are going to use to shoot you seems somewhat ludicrous.
But what YOU don't seem to see, or want to admit, is that society in general is going to shoot you dead anyways. Regardless of where the bullets come from.
Keith, how else do you explain the negative reaction to what you consider "positive" - a bunch of guys playing football who happen to be gay? That we're "deviates" and "perverts" bent on "destroying family values"? They complain that we're "in their face" and compare us to "murderers"?
Let's take a look at 3 "reasons" of hate.
1. Because we're gay and their God says that's "evil". (The gay "lifestyle", i.e. sex, is evil and lewd as are those who perpetrate it.)
2. Because we're out and don't hide that we're gay. Thus attacking their families, recruiting their children.
3. Because some gay people do lewd things at pride marches.
I think 1 and 2 are the prime "reasons". You and others seem to think it's #3. But I think #3 is a rationalization which at its root is illogical. Consider if this is different than saying: "I hate black people because they steal." Makes sense to hate people who steal, right? But it doesn't make sense to first single out black people who steal and even less so to then generalize from this to the entire group.
Surely the "Tailhook" scandal didn't make people hate the military, nor do cases of a sailor or soldier raping a woman. No one believes that all sailors/soldiers are sexual predators and animals.
So why do some people generalize about gay people? Because that's a pretense for their pre-existing hate. Either that or they are just naive racists
As you can see, these same people find football players who happen to be gay (and say it) to be just as offensive and bad as partiers at pride.
We need to open their eyes not by restricting ourselves and always acting like angels (they still see us as devils) but by expanding their horizons.
It is, at its core, a fight between a minority and a majority. Homosexuality is not a common occurrence by any stretch, and I think this reality makes up a large part of the problem that we - and any other minority - have.
Think about it. Let's not talk sexuality for a moment, and let's talk shirt color. If 85-90% of the population walks around every day wearing a blue shirt, how weird does it look to them (where "them" here is defined as people, corporations, government officials and institutions, churches, retail outlets, industry - 85-90% of ALL of society's parts and pieces) when there are a scattered few amongst them wearing green shirts? Their eyes are used to seeing blue, and only blue, because that is what makes up the vast majority of their whole.
This, of course, doesn't take into account the fact that this vast majority, having for ages grown used to itself and remained completely unchallenged *as* the vast majority, has become out-right hostile to those outside their ranks. They are seen as "different," "threats to [their] way of life," "mistakes of evolution," and - one of the most powerful forces in the list - "affronts to God." There's so much here, so many parts to these arguments, and the issue so deep, that there's no way I could verbalize it all here. Suffice it to say that this is how it is with any minority, be it racial, sexual, gender, etc.
The status quo serves to protect and enforce the status quo; that is simply how it works. People will be people: they wear their blue shirts, go to the store and buy from other people in blue shirts, talk and joke with their blue-shirted friends about things that blue shirt wearers find funny or "racey," and elect men and women in blue shirts to their government and legal system. Increase the number of green shirts, and there is friction, because blue shirts do not understand green shirts, and their most obvious differences are strange and terrifying to both sides.
That's just how I see it. It will always be, until people stop being people. All that we can hope for is to continue fighting for our voice in the system. It allows for me, and there are obstacles as with anything. We will never be the status quo, because we will never be the majority. And think what you will of it, but I personally don't lose much sleep over it.
No one is saying that Pride parades are a bad thing. A few people have been pointing out that *some* behavior at Pride parades is alienating even ardent supporters of gay rights, and others are then arguing that plastic speedos and public nudity defines who they are as a human being.
I don't believe that behavior at Pride parades is the *sole* reason that some people are ardently anti-homosexual. What some of you are neglecting to note is that people aren't either pro- or anti-gay. There's a wide range of variation in how people respond to homosexuals, and what to what behavior shuts down potential supporters entirely.
Caesarea4We need to open their eyes not by restricting ourselves and always acting like angels (they still see us as devils) but by expanding their horizons.
Agreed!
In this thread, I agree with you entirely. Just saying.
BioMatty saidIt's not about being young, its about not seeing the wider picture here.
Pride parades are a pretty NEW occurrence - hatred of homosexuality spans centuries, millennia even.
So again, you keep spouting your bullshit about how society hates gays because of pride parades and each and every time I'll listen to you, let you speak, and think 'ignorant dipshit'.
Society hates us because we exist. Go ahead and 'take me to task' but quite frankly...if you're asking OTHERS to refute that statement I suspect its because YOU can't.
I see what you're saying, I really do. Providing the firing squad with the bullets they are going to use to shoot you seems somewhat ludicrous.
But what YOU don't seem to see, or want to admit, is that society in general is going to shoot you dead anyways. Regardless of where the bullets come from.
Are you referring to me as an "ignorant dipshit?" Are kidding me? I hope you're not! If not me, who the fuck are you to say that to anyone? You seem to be the one with this self imposed target on your back!
I have never said they hate us because of the parades and all that stupid inappropriate behaviour. That just keeps it going. The hate stems from religion and its teachings. Now that we are not AS "hated by everyone" as we once were, these types of stupid lewd and embarrassing and self depricating actions of these morons in the parades are so detrimental.
But if you really feel that "society in general is going to shoot you dead anyways. Regardless of where the bullets come from" then rid yourself now of this population. YOU fucking "ignorant dipshit." Seriously if you feel so targeted, then kill yourself now. You serve no purpose at all. You fucking waste of life! -Keith
tiren> What some of you are neglecting to note is that people aren't either pro- or anti-gay. There's a wide range of variation in how people respond to homosexuals, and what to what behavior shuts down potential supporters entirely.
Review #3 above. If they are against "plastic speedos and public nudity", fine. But why only selectively when SOME gays do it and why do they then associate this with ALL gays? (Yet they don't associate lewd behavior at Mardi Gras with all straights?)
It's a selective rationalization, a pretense to cover up their racist hatist logic.
Look at you or Musclequest as a control. Both of you seem to be bothered by "plastic speedos and public nudity" but that doesn't make you anti-gay. Why should we believe that anyone else is anti-gay because of this and only this?
More likely they believe this because they've been brainwashed to believe it. Rather than telling people not to wear plastic speedos at pride rallies, isn't it better to focus our efforts on educating (unbrainwashing) people to realize that this isn't a reason to hate an entire group? Let alone a reason to legislate that hate?
BioMatty saidIt's not about being young, its about not seeing the wider picture here.
Pride parades are a pretty NEW occurrence - hatred of homosexuality spans centuries, millennia even.
So again, you keep spouting your bullshit about how society hates gays because of pride parades and each and every time I'll listen to you, let you speak, and think 'ignorant dipshit'.
Society hates us because we exist. Go ahead and 'take me to task' but quite frankly...if you're asking OTHERS to refute that statement I suspect its because YOU can't.
I see what you're saying, I really do. Providing the firing squad with the bullets they are going to use to shoot you seems somewhat ludicrous.
But what YOU don't seem to see, or want to admit, is that society in general is going to shoot you dead anyways. Regardless of where the bullets come from.
Are you referring to me as an "ignorant dipshit?" Are kidding me? I hope you're not! If not me, who the fuck are you to say that to anyone? You seem to be the one with this self imposed target on your back!
I have never said they hate us because of the parades and all that stupid inappropriate behaviour. That just keeps it going. The hate stems from religion and its teachings. Now that we are not AS "hated by everyone" as we once were, these types of stupid lewd and embarrassing and self depricating actions of these morons in the parades are so detrimental.
But if you really feel that "society in general is going to shoot you dead anyways. Regardless of where the bullets come from" then rid yourself now of this population. YOU fucking "ignorant dipshit." Seriously if you feel so targeted, then kill yourself now. You serve no purpose at all. You fucking waste of life! -Keith
I DON'T feel targeted. I HAVE my rights. And they came through the efforts of those floats and those prancing queens.
Sweat saidI failed to address the other point, about generalizations.
Generalizations are most valid, and most likely to occur, when the sample is small. In other words, the gay population is, relative to the general population anyway, small, and, more importantly, the number of gay people that your average person actually knows is VERY small. So they generalize from what they see. And what do they see? The freakish stuff that gay men choose to do in public on the one day of the year that the organized gay community says: Hey look at us.
cjcscuba1984 said Side note... what exactly do you mean by that sentence? I don't mind being associated with drag queens...but I don't identify with them either.Not to say I don't identify with gay culture.
It wasn't addressed towards your comment, rather to the others in this thread who think that Drag Queens or "fem" guys are the reason gays don't have rights.
I DON'T feel targeted. I HAVE my rights. And they came through the efforts of those floats and those prancing queens.
So uh...go fuck yourself. If you can't see that I was using metaphor than uh..you kind of are a tad ignorant.
And only a true douche would tell someone to kill themself. Apparently you do feel targeted. You said it yourself. If you really think that any rights we have, have been derived from parade floats and those baffoons acting lewdly and sexual in public, YOU are the truly bloody "ignorant dipshit" here. You daft moron!
If this is such a horrible world to be in, being targeted and all, then really..... take yourself out of it. Oh...could that have been a "metaphor?"
Sweat> Generalizations are most valid, and most likely to occur, when the sample is small. In other words, the gay population is, relative to the general population anyway, small, and, more importantly, the number of gay people that your average person actually knows is VERY small. So they generalize from what they see. And what do they see? The freakish stuff that gay men choose to do in public on the one day of the year that the organized gay community says: Hey look at us.
I agree with you about small sample sizes, so let's pick up with where you say "what do they see?". Eearlier I mentioned that years ago the 6.3 seconds of a gay march that may have appeared on the TV news was their only window into the gay world.
That certainly isn't true anymore - unless that is all they choose to see. Why don't they see the gay politician, olympian, moviestar, musician, ...? The list these days is long and yet they only focus on gay mardi gras?
Either they're idiots who don't know better (and should be corrected). Or they see what they want to rationalize what they want to believe - a pretense which covers for other - underlying - "reasons".
Let me ask a far more fundamental question...I keep hearing the concept of "right" or "human right" being espoused as if whatever a "particular" group wants a right to be, that is what it is. In regards to our rights, in general, no one can argue that we as citizens posses the same "rights" under the law as defined and protected by that constitution, we call these our civil rights. As the framers stated these rights are "inalienable rights" not derived from the law or the constitution but rather from the "Creator" who has "endowed" us with them. As such the framers simply affirmed what those rights were. There are, in fact, many cases where individuals do not have the same "rights" under the law, those under 18 cannot vote, felons cannot vote, persons may have their freedom limited or taken away, restrictions are placed on people for their actions, and limits and restraints are imposed for the civil good. All of these deny to citizens certain "rights" based on particular reasons as defined by either constitution or the concepts of common law or general equity.
Now in order to change a particular concept within the law would require the proof that such an act is contrary to all of the principles above, inalienable right, endowed by their Creator, affirmed by Law, Common Law, or general equity. Now the issue of not allowing same sex marriage does not in fact violate any of the principles noted. It does not deny one an inalienable right, it is not an endowed right, it is not affirmed by Law/Constitution, nor Common Law, nor does it fit within the principles of general equity (does giving a group of between 3-5% of the population and then perhaps only 10% of that population a special privilege equal general equity?). As such the concept falls short of being a "right or human right" and therefore should not be called such, it is a preference not a right!
Here's a straight man. He's nearly naked in a public place.
Offensive?
Why would you think that either pic would be offensive? The first show "supposedly" straight people in bathing suits on the beach. The second is of a shirtless, (very thin (Beckham)), athlete.
These people are doing nothing offensive. They are not dancing and prancing around in sexually provocative clothing grabbing their genitals and saying lewd and crude things. I have been to the pride parades and the Halloween parades in the Village since I was 16! I lived in NYC most of my life. 2 of my best friends were amoungst those dolts!! I know exactly what goes on. These are apples and oranges you are comparing my friend. Cheers, Keith
What about these (presumably straight) girls at the Berlin Love Parade?
Or is it public displays of homosexual skin that people find offensive?
Yes, I would consider this offensive. Straight or not. NOW LOOK I AM NO PRUDE! I am exceptionally "freaky" sexually behind closed doors. LOL!!
But there is a time and place for this look and behaviour. And out in public is simply not it. I hate to use this example...but would you dress AND act that way in front of your Mother? Seriously. -Keith
Sweat> I don't know what it's like in Ann Arbor - I only know that's generally considered a very "liberal" place. What I do know is that in many, many places in this country, there still is no other window into the gay world other than that one day a year that the parade gets on the TV news. Know what it's like to live in South Carolina? Or Arkansas? Or . . ( you get the idea). Seriously, I'm guessing you'd be shocked by the lack of exposure in the "heartland."
Ann Arbor is the middle kingdom, but if I drive a few minutes in the wrong direction.... there's a reason we lock the gates every night. (:
Seriously, one may want to ask how Ann Arbor (and other places) became accepting. Do you think it was because all homosexuals didn't go out in public unless they were wearing 3 piece suits or the lesbians were in skirts and heels?
Or was it because back in the 1970s the activists here coined the term "gay pride" and taught their neighbors that there's nothing wrong with being gay?
Would there have been the same positive result had the activists said: it's ok for you to hate the radical faeries and the drag queens, but you have to respect us "normal" types because we, unlike them, are just like you. (Guess what? As we see from the reaction to the Gaybowl above, they don't agree that even we "normal" gay types are just like them.... duh, we're gay... they're not. And to some that's much more of a difference than both of us liking football).
You know, 70 years ago in Europe, some Jews deluded themselves into thinking that they were the just like their non-Jewish neighbors. Some had even converted to Christianity decades earlier. Guess what? The nazis didn't see it that way.
I'm not saying anyone is out to exterminate us. I'm just pointing out the difference in perspective. The person in the out group sees the similarities to the in group. The in group, or at least part of it, [only] sees the differences.
As for the "heartland" (oddly the name of a village 20 minutes north of Ann Arbor) and South Carolina and Arkansas... if they have TVs there (by which to see the 6.3 second snippet of the pride march) then I expect they can also see positive gay characters on TV, gay athletes winning gold medals at the Olympics, a gay rugby player leading the charge against the terrorists on flight 93 on 9/11, the Oscars.... Maybe one day they'll even have the benefit of the internet and be able to find out that Leonardo Davinci, Field Marshall Montgomery, Billy Bean, Alan Turing, George Takei, and Tchaikovsky all lived for more than just 6.3 seconds.
Ok, this my own interpretation of the fight for gay rights...it's not about fighting for our rights, it about fighting for recognition of rights that are already ours. As human beings, as Americans, we have the right to full equality under the law. Though our nation has not recognized that we possess those rights, we do. We do not want special treatment like some say, we want our legal system to treat us the same treatment as everyone else.
I do not care if middle America or low America or high America ... whatever ... likes or doesn't like us, the fact is we are human beings, we are American, just like them and deserve recognition under the law as such. If being half naked in a parade wearing leather pants is the way to get that recognition or wearing a suit and tie and talking to your neighbors about our fight...go for it. In the end, our fight is not about whether those leather pants or that tie help or hinder our fight because we have nothing to prove. It does not matter if you like who we are, what we wear, with whom we sleep, or our sexual identity, we deserve and will have recognition of our equality
MunchingZombie saidPersonal insults are a grand substitution for actual thought.
Other than me pointing about that your were a fuckwad and a little turd, there were other things in my post that you seem not to comprehend. Save your little quotes for people who actually care. Any "actual thoughts?" I suggest you pull up your big boy pants, wipe your eyes , and defend yourself and your thoughts. Otherwise this will turn into what everyone doesn't want it to turn into with me. Apparently I have a reputation now. -Keith
I actually agree with you for once. However....like I have said in the past, 'you throw a stone at me, I will throw a boulder back and smash your skull.' You get back what you give to me. Plain and simple.
But you are right. My apologies to the group. Except to Buttmunchzombie or what ever his name is. -Keith
You threw the first stone. If questioning your argument counts as an insult, then you are not worth having a discussion with.
I asked you two questions at the end of my statement so you could clarify what you said for me. You did answer them later on to other people's inquiries. So your argument seems consistent, though I disagree with the premise that sexuality does not have a place in public spectacle.
Tucker_ said Now the issue of not allowing same sex marriage does not in fact violate any of the principles noted. It does not deny one an inalienable right, it is not an endowed right, it is not affirmed by Law/Constitution, nor Common Law. . .
That's where you're wrong. Amendments to the Constitution are not simply appendices, they become incorporated part of the document itself. (This is why Prop. 8 is so contradictory.)
And our 14th amendment mandates equal treatment under the law to all citizens. So----it's not a question of endowing anything, or belief in Creators or any of that. It simply means that if the Federal government is going to recognize some peoples' marriages, it must recognize all peoples' marriages, including ours. It does not argue against the government getting out of the marriage business altogether, which it theoretically could do--but as long as they're handing out 1,138 tax and other benefits to straight people (paid for with my and your taxes, by the way) then we have a right to stick our heads in the same trough.
Common law has no proper place in this conversation, because it isn't about who gets to be married, it's about who gets benefits.
Tiren: When I said society doesn't matter I was paraphrasing the OP. You are cherry picking so rapidly that you can't even grasp the source of the material.
Now stop being an apologist for our detractors. Fear is born of ignorance. There is no excuse for ignorance in this country.
Your most admirable trait seems to be that you stick by your teenage brethren. Loyalty is noble.
Sweat saidOne other theme that runs through this discussion is the view of some that that immature and exhibitionistic behavior equals gay. In other words, they're saying that those of us who find such stuff unfortunate are not as in touch with our gayness as those who engage in it. I can assure you, I am repressing nothing and have no deep, hidden desire to dance in public in my undies.
And then those same people criticize others for not boldly coming out and proclaiming to the world "these are my people."
MunchingZombie saidYou threw the first stone. If questioning your argument counts as an insult, then you are not worth having a discussion with.
I asked you two questions at the end of my statement so you could clarify what you said for me. You did answer them later on to other people's inquiries. So your argument seems consistent, though I disagree with the premise that sexuality does not have a place in public spectacle.
That is all.
Oh really?
"It is funny that you would demand people to not impose their sexual morality on you but then impose your own on others.
Why is that behavior not acceptable? It is the same behavior heterosexuals indulge in in public, is it equally not acceptable for them?
That was "the first stone." And it was insulting. You can question my theories, or diatribes if you will, but to say I'm demanding people not impose their sexual morality (or lack there of) on me is ridiculous! I wish I did have the power to stop these dolts. They lessen our credibility as a whole. You can disagree with me all you want. As I with you. That what's great about these forums. But don't say I'm doing or saying things I'm not. Or else we have this bloody shit. I can actually be a nice guy believe it or not. -Keith
It wasn't meant as an insult. But from my understanding of what you are saying, that is exactly what you are doing. You don't like public displays of sexuality. I get that. Saying we shouldn't do that is imposing your sexual morality on others. All other points inferred from there are your own.
RPMSoccer saidThere is no point in debating why people display their sexuality at Pride events. It's not going to stop.
No it isn't; nor should it. The reason for which we are reviled is the nature of our sexual expression, so it's hardly surprising that it's put on display at Pride parades. Actually, it's surprising there's not more of it.
The gay rights movement no longer associates itself with utopic agendas, but during the 70s many gay activists literally regarded having sex as revolutionary resistance (since, as I said, the nature of our sex lives is what causes our exclusion). It was regarded, like much of the feminist "bra burning," as resistance to puritanism.
Arguing about this seems really pointless to me. The moment you mandate "normal" appearances and behavior in Pride parades, someone will begin saying there should be no allusion to sex at all. Taking such arguments to an absurd extreme, Pride parades will become opportunities to re-enact the closeting of homosexuality in, um, public.
I question, too, whether urban Americans really give a shit about this to any significant degree any more. If we let the inhabitants of Jesus Land set the rules about sexual expression, miscegenation would probably still be outlawed, along with pornography, salacious dressing and smoking while walking (which was literally illegal for women when I was at William and Mary).
Well we can all say that "forums" are beautiful. It gives us the right to express how we feel or what we think and get the opinions of other. I find it commendible that this man said what he thinks and feels.
I do think that there are things missing that he has not though of. Think of how most of our currncy say's, "In God we Trust." This country was founded by people who wanted to start a new world and base the society on free beliefs but based on there own.
The first thing that all politicians say is "God", God says this and he says that. Ask yourself one thing. Have half of them really read the Bible, I havn't. I do know that I have read parts that pertain to my life and my life style.
Man will always be at war, no matter how big or small the issue. Don't limit yourself to the opinion of the other. Think big. Men going in their underwear is no different then women in thong bikini's or little to nothing on. Gay pride is not the reason for the hate, it's a celebration for you being you, where a group can congrigate. Everyone does it in their own way.
Everything and every belief must be fought for as it always has been through times.
MunchingZombie saidIt wasn't meant as an insult. But from my understanding of what you are saying, that is exactly what you are doing. You don't like public displays of sexuality. I get that. Saying we shouldn't do that is imposing your sexual morality on others. All other points inferred from there are your own.
You are right about me not liking public displays of sexuality. I wasn't brought up to act shamefully or disrespectfully in public. But this is not about ME and what I like!! It does not matter what I think about it. And me having a discussion about it, is not the same as me finding the names of these daft baffoons and personally telling them this. So my approval is irrelevant. Where I've lived for the past 9-10 years is in this hillbilly town in rural VA. It is full of nothing but right wing nut jobs and religious zealots. EVERYTIME, and I mean EVERYTIME that there is some news footage about some Gay "pride" parade, there are the negative and demeaning comments made. And through all of the really mean ugly and nasty things that are said, the truly demeaning and saddest of all is the inevitable..."If THEY want to be taken seriously why do THEY act like that?" "Who wants to be around THAT?!" And this is not coming from a bunch of old geezers over 50! This is coming from people in their late 20's and 30's with children of their own who obsorb that hatred and disgust like sponges. Don't you people get it? It DOES matter how these people see US. It DOES BLOODY MATTER what they think!
-Keith
NB- and Buttmunch, don't think this is over. I'm not inferring anything. I'm reading exactly what you said and meant dickhead!
Musclequest saidWhere I've lived for the past 9-10 years is in this hillbilly town in rural VA. It is full of nothing but right wing nut jobs and religious zealots. EVERYTIME, and I mean EVERYTIME that there is some news footage about some Gay "pride" parade, there are the negative and demeaning comments made. . . .Don't you people get it? It DOES matter how these people see US. It DOES BLOODY MATTER what they think!
I lived in Virginia for seven years myself, in Richmond (which is not rural but also not liberal) and I know these people too.
This is like the larger political sphere. These people you hope to convert are never going to like you. Not if you dress conservatively or in a tutu. They are not the ones whose opinions we seek to change, because they are simply not persuadable.
The persuadables aren't going to base their change of mind on pictures from pride parades, but from knowing brothers, sons, cousins, nephews, neighbors, doctors, their car mechanics----when people you know and care about come out, it acts a thousand times more powerfully than any abstraction.
Your rural church-going neighbors are the bulk of the Limbaugh audience. There will always be a number of them in the country---thankfully, that number dwindles yearly---but to try to tailor our behavior to suit them is self-defeating and a total waste of energy.
Musclequest saidWhere I've lived for the past 9-10 years is in this hillbilly town in rural VA. It is full of nothing but right wing nut jobs and religious zealots. EVERYTIME, and I mean EVERYTIME that there is some news footage about some Gay "pride" parade, there are the negative and demeaning comments made. . . .Don't you people get it? It DOES matter how these people see US. It DOES BLOODY MATTER what they think!
I lived in Virginia for seven years myself, in Richmond (which is not rural but also not liberal) and I know these people too.
This is like the larger political sphere. These people you hope to convert are never going to like you. Not if you dress conservatively or in a tutu. They are not the ones whose opinions we seek to change, because they are simply not persuadable.
The persuadables aren't going to base their change of mind on pictures from pride parades, but from knowing brothers, sons, cousins, nephews, neighbors, doctors, their car mechanics----when people you know and care about come out, it acts a thousand times more powerfully than any abstraction.
Your rural church-going neighbors are the bulk of the Limbaugh audience. There will always be a number of them in the country---thankfully, that number dwindles yearly---but to try to tailor our behavior to suit them is self-defeating and a total waste of energy.
The Richmond area and up to DC is the most liberal part of the state of VA. What are you talking about?!? I worked on the Jim Webb campaign for 2 years whilst living in Troutville on the west side of the state. It was your heavily poplulated area of the state that thankfully made VA, on paper, a Blue state. That's why we didn't waste much time or money out here. It's all republican.
After me just telling you what I hear from all over this part of the state, it most certainly DOES matter! So you think that the embarrassing and lewd behaviour, and sexual acts performed in the public are perfectly fine and acceptable? That WE should be proud of this? Be proud of what we do politically and in the courts. Be proud of marching in protest of a wrong. Be proud of the people in CA who almost daily protest against the mormons. These are the acts and accomplishments we should be proud of. Not a bunch of sad fools dressing up like women, and acting as such. Or running with their dicks hanging out and groping themselves! Or having other men on leashes! I can go on....... These are not things to be proud of. These are the things that make it harder for US to progress. -Keith
Musclequest> in this hillbilly town in rural VA. It is full of nothing but right wing nut jobs and religious zealots. EVERYTIME, and I mean EVERYTIME that there is some news footage about some Gay "pride" parade, there are the negative and demeaning comments made. And through all of the really mean ugly and nasty things that are said, the truly demeaning and saddest of all is the inevitable..."If THEY want to be taken seriously why do THEY act like that?" "Who wants to be around THAT?!"
Answer #1: It's a question of rights. Even people who you don't like and don't want to be around should have rights. Look at the Jews/Blacks/Hispanics... we don't like how they act/talk/dance... but they have rights.
Answer #2: There were 100,000 people at that parade. Why are you judging all of them based on the 3 people who were so outrageous they made the news?
Question #1: Don't these RWNJRZs also make negative comments about "faggots" and "queers" even when not allegedly prompted by gay pride events? Didn't we see the same thing in response to the gay football tournament?
Question #2: Did their fathers take the Mattachine society protests seriously, with the men in suits and the women in skirts and heels? What was their excuse before pride rallies began some 40 years ago? Isn't this a reversal of cause & effect? Weren't pride rallies a response to the bigotry rather than its cause?
Musclequest said The Richmond area and up to DC is the most liberal part of the state of VA. What are you talking about?!? I worked on the Jim Webb campaign for 2 years whilst living in Troutville on the west side of the state. It was your heavily poplulated area of the state that thankfully made VA, on paper, a Blue state. That's why we didn't waste much time or money out here. It's all republican.
So you think that the embarrassing and lewd behaviour, and sexual acts performed in the public are perfectly fine and acceptable? That WE should be proud of this?
First, you are wrong about the Richmond area. I give you NoVA for the liberals, but the Richmond area, with a population of roughly 1 million, breaks down like this: the city, majority black, votes liberal. The northern and western county, Henrico, is not only conservative, but actually sent the despicable Eric Cantor (whom I knew slightly) to Congress, last time with a margin approaching 70%. Chesterfield County, the southern suburbs, are even more conservative. The next northern county, Hanover, makes Henrico look liberal. Goochland and Powhatan to the west (north and south of the James River) are very right-wing. You don't get to a mildly liberal area again until you hit Charlottesville, of which again the city is liberal but the surrounding counties, particularly Albemarle, are very right-wing.
Tidewater seems to be changing; they narrowly threw out the ridiculous Thelma Davis in the last election, thankfully.
As to the other part of your comment---because I am willing to write off the troglodytes, you automatically assume I'm for people groping each other in public?
That sort of Manichaean thinking is some of what's wrong with this discussion. I'm not saying I'm for or against it, I'm saying it's bloody irrelevant to the issues at hand.
[quote] Answer #1: It's a question of rights. Even people who you don't like and don't want to be around should have rights. Look at the Jews/Blacks/Hispanics... we don't like how they act/talk/dance... but they have rights.
Answer #2: There were 100,000 people at that parade. Why are you judging all of them based on the 3 people who were so outrageous they made the news?
[/quote]
Once again I have to explain my posts. #1)- I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THIS! NEVER!
#2) - 3 people? Where do you get that number? AS I ALREADY SAID, I have gone to every pride parade in the Village in NYC since I was 16. Not just 3. A couple hundred acting that way. The more outrageous, the more airtime they rec'd!
The "answers" above aren't for you but for the nut jobs/troglodytes.
Obviously we can argue about the number that are outrageous. But even if it is "hundreds" - out of tens of thousands if not 100,000... my point stands. Who - other than someone who is already a racist - would judge all gay people by a few [hundred] at a parade?
Do you really think you can please the people you yourself describe as "right wing nut jobs and religious zealots."? As if not for those few [hundred] outrageous people at the pride march they'd be all in favor of equal rights for gays? They would never again disparage "faggots" and "queers" - including complaining about gay football players?
What came first: our marches or their intolerance?
Caesarea4 saidThe "answers" above aren't for you but for the nut jobs/troglodytes.
Obviously we can argue about the number that are outrageous. But even if it is "hundreds" - out of tens of thousands of not 100,000... my point stands. Who - other than someone who is already a racist - would judge all gay people by a few [hundred] at a parade?
Do you really think you can please the people you yourself describe as "right wing nut jobs and religious zealots."? As if not for those few [hundred] outrageous people at the pride march they'd be all in favor of equal rights for gays? They would never again disparage "faggots" and "queers" - including complaining about gay football players?
What came first: our marches or their intolerance?
But if that's all that is shown on the tele, then that's what the masses will think. Near where I live, there are no "Pride" parades. So what these mindless drones and sheep see on the tele is ALL they have to go on. Then these sheep go to church and what do you think is discussed? Imagine that...the "depravity of the situation of gays." And how "we have to help them come away from their evil paths." (Have heard it from people's conversations at work.) Keith
Musclequest> if that's all that is shown on the tele
But it isn't all that is shown on TV. Not to mention that there is the internet and (gasp!) books, even libraries.
MQ> where I live, there are no "Pride" parades
Excellent. Then all you have to do is tell them that it's only a few gay people in NY and SF who behave that way but the rest of all gay people don't and they shouldn't hold us responsible for what those few guys do.
MQ> Then these sheep go to church and what do you think is discussed? Imagine that...the "depravity of the situation of gays."
I'm pretty sure some church's discussed this before there were pride parades.
Wasn't "depravity" one of the words used to describe the gay football players, too?
MQ> And how "we have to help them come away from their evil paths."
Caesarea4 saidMusclequest> if that's all that is shown on the tele
But it isn't all that is shown on TV. Not to mention that there is the internet and (gasp!) books, even libraries.
MQ> where I live, there are no "Pride" parades
Excellent. Then all you have to do is tell them that it's only a few gay people in NY and SF who behave that way but the rest of all gay people don't and they shouldn't hold us responsible for what those few guys do.
MQ> Then these sheep go to church and what do you think is discussed? Imagine that...the "depravity of the situation of gays."
I'm pretty sure some church's discussed this before there were pride parades.
Wasn't "depravity" one of the words used to describe the gay football players, too?
MQ> And how "we have to help them come away from their evil paths."
The evil path isn't parading but having gay sex.
Would you quit doing that so they don't hate us?
You know, you are having a basic functional understanding problem with me. You are not getting me at all. I have tried to explain my point to you time and time again. I do, however, understand what you are saying. But we're done. I also appreciate YOUR civility throughout this. -Keith
Oh, and apparently it is the well dressed and "normal" acting homosexuals that are the most "dangerous"
I watched that whole thing... I feel sick to my stomach now... seriously
The real fucked up part is that there is some truth in it. That actually happens sometimes. The fact that I have something inside me connecting me to people like that used to eat me up inside. I used to get physically sick knowing that I would be put into the same category as him. People think that what they do has no effect on the rest of us but it only takes one person to ruin the reputation of everyone.
Straights are just as likely pedophiles as gays. The only "truth" in that safety video was that there are people out there who prey on youth for sexual purposes.
MunchingZombie saidIt wasn't meant as an insult. But from my understanding of what you are saying, that is exactly what you are doing. You don't like public displays of sexuality. I get that. Saying we shouldn't do that is imposing your sexual morality on others. All other points inferred from there are your own.
You keep saying people are trying to impose sexual morality like it's a bad thing. Morality sexual or not is different for everyone. Which is why it is up to society to draw the line. Some people don't have any problems raping or killing another person. According to their morales there is nothing wrong with that. Someone needs to draw the lines.
To all you that think I'm naive because I'm young. I have been through more in my nineteen years than most people go through their entire lives. I know what it's like to hold a friends hand and watch them die. I know what it is like to be 12 years old and taken by a gay man. I know what it is like to be disgusted with yourself knowing that you have anything in common with someone so mentally sick. I'm sure his sexual morals were very different than mine, but I probably shouldn't push my morals onto people like him. I know more than you could possibly imagine not because I read it in books but because I have felt things that I pray no other human being will ever feel. Don't be quick to judge things you know nothing about.
DrobUA said I know what it is like to be disgusted with yourself knowing that you have anything in common with someone so mentally sick.
You have nothing more in common with a sexual deviant than the next random person you see walking down the street. Everyone is human . That is the message you should be promoting, not one of vile revolt because you have a counter-stance against another gay man's comportment.
It is becoming evident that people are putting a lot of pressure on a community-wide definition of what something is and if anyone deviates from that path then let the fire and brimstone rain. You are right to be upset at the "one apple spoils the whole bunch". Be that as it may, you still should try to show people who hate apples all the other kinds and ways you can cook with them rather than coming in and telling all the apples that nothing will change unless they stop being apples.
mickeytopogigio saidOK, I missed the part where the thread went from garish pride parade displays to pedophilia.
Could this thread get a little perspective back?
that my freind is the perspective .. stereotypes used to vilify homosexuals. And in this case I must add that homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing. Male/female pedophilia is FAR more common. So are a multitude of other sexual acts and lascivious and lewd behavior, but do you see people blaming heterosexuality for these things?? Nevertheless people take that bait all the time regardless of the facts. You loathe or hate a class of people and then proceed to conflate homosexuality with all sorts of "perverse" things. titty bars abound but you don't see people pinning the blame on heterosexuality and say heterosexuality and heterosexuals are bad.
It's the same source of prejudice behind so many things .. "that person is not like me, whats wrong with them that they are different, there must be something wrong with them since I am normal and they are not like me!" Then the irrational loathing and hate starts projecting all sorts of negative stereotypes that "must be true" because they are different. Because this is the case, no matter what Gays do, They will always be the enemy until people can see past the irrational fears and see the truth.
I think dropping the pedophilia thing into this thread is the equivalent of evoking Godwin's Law. The content of the thread has reached its hyperbolic zenith, and I'll argue for the thread's death.
mickeytopogigio saidI think dropping the pedophilia thing into this thread is the equivalent of evoking Godwin's Law. The content of the thread has reached its hyperbolic zenith, and I'll argue for the thread's death.
Amen to that, and if this subject is raised again on RJ, I will make sure to link this one in. No use beating our heads against a brick wall yet again.
mickeytopogigio saidI think dropping the pedophilia thing into this thread is the equivalent of evoking Godwin's Law. The content of the thread has reached its hyperbolic zenith, and I'll argue for the thread's death.
The thread started with Godwins Law: "If homosexuals would just stop doing X they would not be so persecuted" more specifically :
original postThey see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better?
Yet as many times as this notion has been rehashed, people still respond to it.
And anti-gay people still throw that kind of comparison out there and effectively convince others that homosexuality is a danger to your children and society. Whether is be the pope or the Pro prop 8 people. Apparently they don't know Godwins Law.
Sweat saidNobody's mind gets changed in this recurring debate on this site. I find it bizarre how vested some people are in the whole acting idiotically in public thing. So my goal isn't to convince anybody of anything. But what is helpful is that these threads connect up people who get it (folks like DrobUA, Musclequest, and others who have emailed me).
As for the rest of you, don't count on me out there carrying picket signs for the team until you figure out what you're protesting. The team is apparently more concerned with frivolity and exhibitionism than the things that really matter.
I am not vested in people acting out on pride day. I don't participate in it and don't find it particularly entertaining. But I believe they have the right to do it as long as they are not breaking the law. Does it skew some people's views of gays? Perhaps, but those people are probably beyond reach anyways unless they encounter gay people in real life, and not on a TV screen or on the front of a newspaper. You can act as "normal" as a hetero banker but you will not convince a fundamentalist Baptist or Pentecostal that homosexuality is acceptable. Human rights in a society that espouses the importance of freedom are about treating every law-abiding citizen the same. It is a legal issue not an issue of social mores.
Arent parades supposed to be fun? Lotsa color and action and music and things u dont normally see? Well who would want to see a parade with badly dressed over weight homos from the burbs trudging along with the i wanna blend in and not be noticed looks on their faces... (and some of those guys r bigger pervs and into more "closet kink" and more sexual encounters outside of their burblike relationship than u can imagine...) Why cant we love all our brothers n sisters no matter how pink the panties are they r wearing in the parade, or how plain and ordinary their clothes and lives are. I'd rather deal with a flashy leather man or drag queen or someone splashed with color and carrying dazzling signs, who is honest and out and real about themselves than some mousy dressed liar who is living as a couple in the burbs and is only out to family and 2 people at work, and who is meanwhile blowing a dozen married guys in the park when their partner isnt looking.... remember we need people on the front lines with banners and color and noise.... to get the mule to move first u gotta get its attention
Mickeytopogigio> I think dropping the pedophilia thing into this thread is the equivalent of evoking Godwin's Law. The content of the thread has reached its hyperbolic zenith, and I'll argue for the thread's death.
Dude, you're just like hitler, trying to kill everything. You probably have storage bins full of threads.
It's people like you who give gay people a bad reputation....
I find it funny that you post a profile pic of you and a beautiful smiling female? Like you are trying to somehow convey that you are straight or straight acting? That you are not like "us", and if we would just quit those darn Gay Pride Parades in our teeny weeny bikinis and Dykes on Bikes that the straight world world just jump to the forefront and accept us like they have accepted you.
Let me tell you something. You live your stupid semi-gay carefree life because gay men and women and yes Drag Queens did a shitload of work before your pretty twink ass was ever born.
You do not see me or most of my self respecting Gay men using pics of us with chicks as our profiles on here. We do not play that stupid game. You hide, you create, you falsify your semi-gay life while the resto us are actually doing the hard work day in and day out. We show up at work gay. We introduce our partners as our partners and not our room mates or buddies. We are honest, and damn fucking proud, of who we are.
Don't like the parades? Don't worry. They probably do come near your closet. But when the day comes that they shut down the straight parade in New Orleans with Titties flying and cocks wiggling and all of America watching and think how neat!!!! That is the day that we shut down the Gay Pride Parades. Do I agree with everything that goes on with every float? No. But that is freedom, buddy, the freedom to be as big an idiot as the girl or guy on the Mardi Gras or St. Paddy's Day floats.
So, no offense, I do not know you, but be careful before you start to tell the Gay community, which you are not even part of, how to act. Some of us have been around longer than you have been born and though your imput is welcome, your judgement is not.
on second thought maybe there should be tons and tons of plainly dressed burb couples in the gay parades ..along with the gay footballers and gay jocks from every sport......if they can get enough balls to do it and be that out!! instead of sitting back and enjoying the freedom, acceptance, and legal battles the "distasteful and shameful looking ones" are winning for them! Then sitting there with their partners in the comfort of their nice people homes watching pride parades on tv and despising and criticizing the people in the parades. .. ..... The best thing we can do is to be honestly and shamelessly and proudly out... be a decent person and always let people know u r queer... the more out people we have the better it will be.. ... how can the invisible be heard or set free.... we gotta let em know we r here and we are all as diff from each other as str8 pple.... some wear lotsa color and sing out loud ..some are laid back and raise adopted children in nice str8 neighborhoods...whatever ur thing is as far as lifestyle, or way of being or presenting ur self in public, the important thing is to be honest and out ... and don't let old childhood fears abt how people might think u r like the nasty drag queens and ubersexual gays and the other boys on the team in highschool might disown u if they knew u were gay... don't let old thinking or feeling affect ur present way of thinking or judging. This is the part of internalized homophobia that a lot of gays have that makes them hate the obviously gay or in u face gays ... we need all the colors of the rainbow together to be as strong as we can be.... the world is changing, and the change is picking up speed. "tis the eye of childhood that fears the painted devil"
Pinny> You are right to be upset at the "one apple spoils the whole bunch".
Pinny, I love your posts but here I must disagree. The gay child molester is no more part of our "bunch" (barrel) than all straights are responsible for the straight child molester or rapist.
That has been the message I have attempted to promote (successfully or not). No one can judge a group by the actions of a few of its members. Not if it's people at a Pride parade and not if it is a sexual criminal.
This is something that people only do with minorities. If a white man steals, no one would say: "white people are like that". Yet if a black man steals, some will say that "THEY are all a bunch of thieves" There's what I call "racist hatist logic" of generalizing from a few INDIVIDUALS to the entire GROUP... and then reversing course and applying that stereotype to each and every individual member of the group (perhaps with a few exceptions, e.g. Archie Bunker's black friend... who [allegedly] wasn't like the rest of them black people).
With that in mind:
DrobUA> I know what it is like to be disgusted with yourself knowing that you have anything in common with someone so mentally sick.
It appears that you have nothing in common with a gay child molester. Well, yeah, you are both gay but that is as irrelevant as the fact that you both have 2 ears and 5 fingers per hand. This does not define a pertinent association, no more than you are like hitler because you are both human (much as we'd like to imagine that hitler wasn't).
Sweat> don't count on me out there carrying picket signs for the team until you figure out what you're protesting. The team is apparently more concerned with frivolity and exhibitionism than the things that really matter.
Why are you attributing the actions of some people to the entire "team"?
Maybe the "team" can benefit from your leadership (rather than just kibbitzing from behind a veil)?
SurrealLife> You can act as "normal" as a hetero banker but you will not convince a fundamentalist Baptist or Pentecostal that homosexuality is acceptable.
Just as the Mormons claimed that the "normal" gay football tournament was "deviant" with "perverts" threatening "family values".
SurrealLife> those people are probably beyond reach anyways unless they encounter gay people in real life, and not on a TV screen or on the front of a newspaper.
Bingo! What we need isn't fewer "frivolous" "exhibitionists" but more people who are "normal" and who can be, just as much if not more so, the "face" of the "team".
But the problem with those people who are "beyond reach" (or "right wing nut jobs and religious zealots" as Musclequest called them) is that they CHOOSE to put the "frivolous/exhibitionist" face on the team because it fits with their agenda. That's why they completely ignore all the other gay people (or, as we've seen, they consider them just as "offensive").
If the "frivolous/exhibitionist" people didn't exist, they'd invent them. (Just as they invented that homosexuals molest children - moreso than heterosexuals, and thus homosexuality unlike heterosexuality is evil.)
Triggerman saidI find it funny that you post a profile pic of you and a beautiful smiling female? Like you are trying to somehow convey that you are straight or straight acting? That you are not like "us", and if we would just quit those darn Gay Pride Parades in our teeny weeny bikinis and Dykes on Bikes that the straight world world just jump to the forefront and accept us like they have accepted you.
Let me tell you something. You live your stupid semi-gay carefree life because gay men and women and yes Drag Queens did a shitload of work before your pretty twink ass was ever born.
You do not see me or most of my self respecting Gay men using pics of us with chicks as our profiles on here. We do not play that stupid game. You hide, you create, you falsify your semi-gay life while the resto us are actually doing the hard work day in and day out. We show up at work gay. We introduce our partners as our partners and not our room mates or buddies. We are honest, and damn fucking proud, of who we are.
Don't like the parades? Don't worry. They probably do come near your closet. But when the day comes that they shut down the straight parade in New Orleans with Titties flying and cocks wiggling and all of America watching and think how neat!!!! That is the day that we shut down the Gay Pride Parades. Do I agree with everything that goes on with every float? No. But that is freedom, buddy, the freedom to be as big an idiot as the girl or guy on the Mardi Gras or St. Paddy's Day floats.
So, no offense, I do not know you, but be careful before you start to tell the Gay community, which you are not even part of, how to act. Some of us have been around longer than you have been born and though your imput is welcome, your judgement is not.
JW
Like I said before I get more judgement from the gay community for not fitting their idea of what gay should be than I do from the straight community for being gay. Posting a picture of me and a girl is a crime now? A message that I am pretending to be straight? Just because I don't hate the straight community doesn't mean I'm a part of it or change myself in any way to try and be accepted by them. Just because I'm not flamboyant doesn't mean I'm acting.
DrobuaLike I said before I get more judgement from the gay community for not fitting their idea of what gay should be than I do from the straight community for being gay
Really?
The Pope recently claimed that homosexuality could lead to the self-destruction of the human race.
Like I said before I get more judgement from the gay community for not fitting their idea of what gay should be than I do from the straight community for being gay. Posting a picture of me and a girl is a crime now? A message that I am pretending to be straight? Just because I don't hate the straight community doesn't mean I'm a part of it or change myself in any way to try and be accepted by them. Just because I'm not flamboyant doesn't mean I'm acting.
A lot of people on this website, including yours truly, do not fit in that well with the gay community. Neither do we hate the straight community. I have chosen to contribute to the gay community through volunteer work, not through political action. I guess what I disagree with is the assertion from some people that equal rights for gays is somehow linked with changing the more outrageous behaviour seen in the gay community. If we do not piss straights off we obtain the rights sooner. To me they are separate issues. There will be some straights, even some gays, that have over generalized and negative opinions of gay men (e.g. we are oversexed, as if that is a problem peculiar to gay men). All you can do is help enlighten them.
DrobUA> I know what it is like to be disgusted with yourself knowing that you have anything in common with someone so mentally sick.
It appears that you have nothing in common with a gay child molester. Well, yeah, you are both gay but that is as irrelevant as the fact that you both have 2 ears and 5 fingers per hand. This does not define a pertinent association, no more than you are like hitler because you are both human (much as we'd like to imagine that hitler wasn't).
but when you are 12 and figuring out who you are and that is the only contact you've had with the gay world, it ruins you.
^ Imagine if the only way you could express your sexuality was by being feminine - and then you read your views in this thread.
I would never in my wildest dreams get up on a float dressed in feathers. But because I had a hard time accepting my own sexuality, I understand that other people suffer too.
And they have the right to express their sexuality however they like.
Stockholm SyndromeStockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed. This is the song's theme, as reflected in lyrics such as, "This is the last time I'll forget you/I wish I could."
The syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg, Stockholm, Sweden, in which the bank robbers held bank employees hostage and the victims became emotionally attached to their victimisers, and even defended their captors after they were freed from their six-day ordeal.
SweatNobody's mind gets changed in this recurring debate on this site.
No, but in a debate you either confirm and sharpen your own views by defending them, or you grant a tiny little bit of ground to the other person and change your mind in baby steps.
Caesarea4 said Pinny, I love your posts but here I must disagree. The gay child molester is no more part of our "bunch" (barrel) than all straights are responsible for the straight child molester or rapist.
That has been the message I have attempted to promote (successfully or not). No one can judge a group by the actions of a few of its members. Not if it's people at a Pride parade and not if it is a sexual criminal.
I agree with you 100% I was just reiterating the fact that as a gay person it is fine to be upset with that mode of thought because just as you have pointed out, it is completely flawed; however all of us should be working towards correcting it. I wanted to give a larger example where I called DropUA a Fiji apple and a child molester a granny smith. If granny smith's all of a sudden became the most revolting apple out there, would we content ourselves with having people assume all apples are crap and deserve no attention? No, we would simply show that there are a lot of other apples out there for trying.
DrobUA saidbut when you are 12 and figuring out who you are and that is the only contact you've had with the gay world, it ruins you.
While you case is heart-aching, you are smart enough to realize that those individuals aren't unique to the gay community, but to society.
I believe it is Obscenewish who pointed it out earlier that we have been marginalized because of our sexual expression not being main-stream. Thus all deviations from the norm will be grouped together. It is, however, our job to fix that eye-gauging generalization.
DrobUA saidbut when you are 12 and figuring out who you are and that is the only contact you've had with the gay world, it ruins you.
While you case is heart-aching, you are smart enough to realize that those individuals aren't unique to the gay community, but to society.
I believe it is Obscenewish who pointed it out earlier that we have been marginalized because of our sexual expression not being main-stream. Thus all deviations from the norm will be grouped together. It is, however, our job to fix that eye-gauging generalization.
I think I like the race analogy as opposed to apples... just saying... I seriously want to see DrobUA's response to that...
RuggerATX said
DrobUA saidI have been thinking long and hard about reason the rest of the world looks down on the gay community. They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? If African American's tried to win there equal rights by parading around in their underwear, they never would have gotten them. Instead of being offended, try and understand why they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it? It doesn't matter how other people define you its how you define yourself. Do you see yourself as an outcast? A doctor? A politician? How about a human being. Someone who has the ability to make decisions and stand behind their actions. Don't give society the ammo they need to fuel their debate..
The African-American metaphor is flawed. Gangster rap was thier pride parade, so-to-speak. While it may have alienated some, it made people pay attention to the real problems of the oppression of that minority. Suburbanites got a fast, albeit nontraditional, education. 20 years later, they're worshipping a black man as the leader of the free world.
I think the race metaphor is an interesting one as well. Many middle Americans do not identify with contemporary Black culture. They visibly dislike some aspects of that style of entertainment. But they would not stand up in society and argue for segregation or against an African-American's right to vote. Unless of course they are actual racists.
Similarly, Americans may not like or identify with our culture, but only the ones who are actually homophobic argue that they we don't deserve the right to sleep together or have partnership benefits.
I think it's hypocritical for gay people to say "let the voters decide' and then when the votes come in and they are "against" whatever the gay people want, they immediately fault the voters and say they shouldn't decide the issue (such as what happened in CA with Prop . It seems like the big sticking point with gay people is the right to marry. I don't see any reason why a civil union is not a solid compromise on this issue by any state. As long as it provides the same benefits and protections as marriage, it is just another word for "marriage" that leaves the marriage covenant between man and woman,,,which it should be.
bocaguyfl saidI think it's hypocritical for gay people to say "let the voters decide' and then when the votes come in and they are "against" whatever the gay people want,....
You are misinformed, the gay's against prop 8 did not think that it should be up to voters .. they have said that minority rights is NOT something that should be put up to the vote.
bocaguyfl saidI think it's hypocritical for gay people to say "let the voters decide' and then when the votes come in and they are "against" whatever the gay people want, they immediately fault the voters and say they shouldn't decide the issue (such as what happened in CA with Prop . It seems like the big sticking point with gay people is the right to marry. I don't see any reason why a civil union is not a solid compromise on this issue by any state. As long as it provides the same benefits and protections as marriage, it is just another word for "marriage" that leaves the marriage covenant between man and woman,,,which it should be.
I have rec'd over 22 emails last night from various members TELLING me they no longer want me posting to these threads. And I almost went along with it. Not that my feelings were hurt by those panty-waste cowards whom would not have the nerve to say some of the things they had to anyone's face, but because they said I was too disruptive. So I was going to lay back a while. But......WOW!
This posting had angered me to the point that I really wasn't going to respond. But I can't help it... Gay people DID NOT say let the voters decide! Yes....really let's willingly put our already fought and won right up for a vote! My family lives in Bel Air and I was out there during the vote. WE did no such thing. SO IT'S OK WITH YOU TO BE DEEMED NOT WORTHY, OR NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE TERM MARRIAGE TO BE APPLIED TO YOU????!!!! OR BE A RIGHT, WHICH YOU ARE BEING DENIED?? (AND YES...WHEN OTHER PEOPLE CAN LEAGALLY DO SOMETHING, BUT YOU ARE DENIED, THEN YOUR RIGHT IS BEING DENIED.) So is it OK for US to be told you are not good enough? If so, that is a sad existence. One for which I will not stand for. -Keith
Prop 8 should not have gone to the voters. It was sponsored by a laundry list of anti-gay organizations after the California Justice System found an earlier law to be unconstitutional.
Regardless of how one views gays, we should be afforded the same rights and privileges as every other group in the US. Civil unions are not equal to marriage. They fall fundamentally short in many areas including medical rights, property rights, and tax rights. Adoptions for gays in this country is spotty at best, and there are still many states that do not protect gays in the workplace.
Humanity has a long history of hate - look to Jewish Americans, African Americans, Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Hispanic Americans, etc. over the history of our nation and you will see a history of intolerance based upon fear and ignorance. We are in that place.
Thanks to many, we are more visible to the populace and the government. However, we should not change anything about ourselves (as individuals or communities) in order to gain the rights that should be ours.
bocaguyfl saidI think it's hypocritical for gay people to say "let the voters decide' and then when the votes come in and they are "against" whatever the gay people want, they immediately fault the voters and say they shouldn't decide the issue (such as what happened in CA with Prop . It seems like the big sticking point with gay people is the right to marry. I don't see any reason why a civil union is not a solid compromise on this issue by any state. As long as it provides the same benefits and protections as marriage, it is just another word for "marriage" that leaves the marriage covenant between man and woman,,,which it should be.
I have rec'd over 22 emails last night from various members TELLING me they no longer want me posting to these threads. And I almost went along with it. Not that my feelings were hurt by those panty-waste cowards whom would not have the nerve to say some of the things they had to anyone's face, but because they said I was too disruptive. So I was going to lay back a while. But......WOW!
WTF!!!!!!!!!!! Dude you better be joking!!!!!! No one and I mean no one has the right to tell you to stop contributing to a thread!!!!!!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!!! And none of these 22 can see the irony?
I have rec'd over 22 emails last night from various members TELLING me they no longer want me posting to these threads. And I almost went along with it. Not that my feelings were hurt by those panty-waste cowards whom would not have the nerve to say some of the things they had to anyone's face, but because they said I was too disruptive. So I was going to lay back a while. But......WOW!
WTF!!!!!!!!!!! Dude you better be joking!!!!!! No one and I mean no one has the right to tell you to stop contributing to a thread!!!!!!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!!! And none of these 22 can see the irony?
[/quote]
I wish I were kidding. Them see the irony? That would asking too much of those pigs. But thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. Cheers, Keith
WTF!!!!!!!!!!! Dude you better be joking!!!!!! No one and I mean no one has the right to tell you to stop contributing to a thread!!!!!!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!!! And none of these 22 can see the irony?
Contributing to the threads is one thing, using abusive language against other RJ members is another. It is against RJ's policy which we all agree to when we sign on. Violation of the policy gets people booted off (and no I am not one of the e-mail senders).
SurrealLife saidWTF!!!!!!!!!!! Dude you better be joking!!!!!! No one and I mean no one has the right to tell you to stop contributing to a thread!!!!!!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!!! And none of these 22 can see the irony?
Contributing to the threads is one thing, using abusive language against other RJ members is another. It is against RJ's policy which we all agree to when we sign on. Violation of the policy gets people booted off (and no I am not one of the e-mail senders).
What? Is that a threat? I mean what are we a bunch of sensitive little girls? Keith
BioMatty saidPersonally MQ, I find your brashness somewhat akin to my own.
While I disagree with your opinion on THIS topic...I can't fault you for feeling/reacting as strongly as you do.
I think BioMatty's right about this. You may dislike Keith's opinions or his mode of expressing them, but he's provoked many of us to engage in the debate and examine our own thoughts about an issue that affects us all. This makes lots better reading than all the pointless guy-above-you threads.
BioMatty saidPersonally MQ, I find your brashness somewhat akin to my own.
While I disagree with your opinion on THIS topic...I can't fault you for feeling/reacting as strongly as you do.
*shrugs* That is all.
Thank you for saying that. I was especially rude to you. I was just caught up in the moment. Not an excuse, just a fact. I apologise for being such a prick. Cheers, Keith
BioMatty saidPersonally MQ, I find your brashness somewhat akin to my own.
While I disagree with your opinion on THIS topic...I can't fault you for feeling/reacting as strongly as you do.
I think BioMatty's right about this. You may dislike Keith's opinions or his mode of expressing them, but he's provoked many of us to engage in the debate and examine our own thoughts about an issue that affects us all. This makes lots better reading than all the pointless guy-above-you threads.
Thank you. These threads have made me think about my positions and opinions as well. -Keith
Caesarea4 saidAha. So we can all just think along together!
Even if we don't reach the same conclusions.
You on the other hand....I don't think so. Not a big fan of your postings. You get into these long diatribes that go into so many directions that I completely lose interest.
Caesarea4 saidAha. So we can all just think along together!
Even if we don't reach the same conclusions.
You on the other hand....I don't think so. Not a big fan of your postings. You get into these long diatribes that go into so many directions that I completely lose interest.
Musclequest saidNo "pinny"....he was directing that towards me as a dig. And I don't need to be lectured to by either of you. Get over yourself! Keith
I am done with ever trying to reason with you. Please continue to fail at internet forums.
LOL! You are quite serious with that posting aren't you? LMAO!!! That makes it all the funnier. There was another thread where the phrase, "kiss the mirror for me boys" was used. (Or something like that.) You really MUST do that every morning. My gosh....an intellectual little snob like you deserves that kiss. PUCKER UP! How will I ever PASS the grades of these forums without your astute guidance and intellect? What will I do? Save me fellow posters....save me. LOL! -Keith
SurrealLife saidWTF!!!!!!!!!!! Dude you better be joking!!!!!! No one and I mean no one has the right to tell you to stop contributing to a thread!!!!!!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!!! And none of these 22 can see the irony?
Contributing to the threads is one thing, using abusive language against other RJ members is another. It is against RJ's policy which we all agree to when we sign on. Violation of the policy gets people booted off (and no I am not one of the e-mail senders).
What? Is that a threat? I mean what are we a bunch of sensitive little girls? Keith
Nope not a threat, I already reported you to RJ this morning. I suggest you re-read the terms of usage of this website.
Caesarea4 saidNo real surprise that those who can't argue against what I've said choose to relegate themselves to personal attacks.
Musclequest> You get into these long diatribes that go into so many directions that I completely lose interest.
Not my fault you have a short attention span. Or want to treat complex questions with simple statements.
samerphx> His posts wasn't very organize and clear.
It would be nice if you could organize a sentence to the point where it is not just coherent but grammatically correct.
You really need to get over yourself. No one can argue against what you say because they are asleep by the time the get through your diatribe! It's all over the place. At one point you mentioned NAMBLA? WTF? As if that bunch of sick f*cks had any point to this thread! (Or any reason for anything for that matter.) -Keith
Alright...since someone has taken the time and reported me, I would like to offer my apologies to anyone else that was TRULY offended by my rants and ravings. I get VERY passionate about certain things and have a really bad temper. When I feel personally attacked, I give what I get. Some people are just too sensitive for my aggressiveness. So I do apologise to you all. Cheers, Keith
Nope. I quoted religious freaks complaining about gay guys playing in a football tournament and getting press coverage, saying:
|| What would happen in NAMBLA had a football day? It wouldn't be tolerated for a minute! Homosexual may be kind, unjudgemental, and claim they love Jesus, but their lifestyle is wrong!!!
What I said: When they say "lifestyle", they're not talking about being a "leather daddy" or a "drag queen" or a "bear" or a "twink" or even a "RealJock". They're talking about men having sex with other men.
Gay sex, not someone wearing something outrageous or showing too much skin one day a year at a Pride rally, is what they object to.
Just to emphasize: for them, there's no difference between a bunch of guys (who just happen to be gay) playing football and NAMBLA. Or, for that matter, between a bunch of "normal" gay guys and those "frivolous/exhibitionist/outrageous" gays at a Pride rally.
Are you willing to give up your "lifestyle" (sex with other men) to appease them?
Caesarea4 saidMusclequest> At one point you mentioned NAMBLA?
Nope. I quoted religious freaks complaining about gay guys playing in a football tournament and getting press coverage, saying:
|| What would happen in NAMBLA had a football day? It wouldn't be tolerated for a minute! Homosexual may be kind, unjudgemental, and claim they love Jesus, but their lifestyle is wrong!!!
What I said: When they say "lifestyle", they're not talking about being a "leather daddy" or a "drag queen" or a "bear" or a "twink" or even a "RealJock". They're talking about men having sex with other men.
Gay sex, not someone wearing something outrageous or showing too much skin one day a year at a Pride rally, is what they object to.
Just to emphasize: for them, there's no difference between a bunch of guys (who just happen to be gay) playing football and NAMBLA. Or, for that matter, between a bunch of "normal" gay guys and those "frivolous/exhibitionist/outrageous" gays at a Pride rally.
Are you willing to give up your "lifestyle" (sex with other men) to appease them?
You are exhausting to deal with. Your responses are, at times, just so damn tiring. I'm done responding to you. It's just not worth it. -Keith
I will rephrase my last posting. If Prop 8 had passed, would gay people had said anything about it being an "unfair" or "unjust" way to decide the matter had those in the minority seeked to block it's win? NO.
What I was trying to say is that IF the vote would have gone the way the way they wanted it, gay people would have hailed the vote as the best thing ever, but since it didn't they yelled and screamed "unfair". Thus "hypocrites" in my view.
As far as civil rights, I do not think marriage should have to be changed to guy-guy or female-female just because gays WANT it and deem it unfair that they can't get married. Marriage is not an absolute unalienable right. I get offended that gay people compare their struggles to other Civil Rights struggles that other ethic groups and minorities (such as Blacks, Women,etc..) have had.
I've weighed in on similar debates before in defense of the freedom to transgress against arbitrary and rigid societal norms, but this particular thread has sparked another line of thought for me. Specifically, that Gay Pride parades aren't actually about our rights or equality. Not anymore, at least. Maybe in the early days, when they were about protest, but now Pride is something else. It's a party, and it's commercial, and it's about visibility-- showing the closeted youngsters in the hinterland that in the city they can find other homos-- and about taking to the streets for a day in such numbers that the usual anxiety about gay-bashings is drowned out. Three hundred and sixty-four days of the year, going out and being 'made' can get you insulted or spat on or maybe even killed; but for Pride day there are so many queers on the street that the haters get marginalized. It's a day of acutely experiencing the strength of numbers. I think that's why even other gay people don't really take the political voices seriously anymore when they talk about Pride as activism.
What gets forgotten in the debates about whether certain participants are "embarrassing to our community," though, is that the gay "community" isn't a monolith. No one can perfectly 'represent us' because the only thing we definitely have in common is same-sex attraction; other than that, we're as varied as can be. It's like an extended family meeting for a reunion picnic; a hundred people who might otherwise be virtual strangers with little or nothing in common, brought together by one thing alone (blood), black sheep and all. Maybe the only way everyone can get along is to get drunk, and maybe the next morning people are talking about how awful cousin Bob is, or what an embarrassment great-grammy Edith is with her folksy racism, but the get together wasn't about picking each other apart after-the-fact, it's about enjoying the party and taking some comfort in knowing we aren't alone in the world-- that somewhere there are people who'll have our back if we need them.
Really, when you get right down to it, Pride festivities only bring all of us diverse individuals-- who sometimes get on each others' nerves-- together because of the stigma that the majority assigned to our sexual feelings. We weren't lumped together by our own choice, but since we were we might as well try to make the best of it and try to show each other some compassion and respect.
bocaguyfl saidWhat I was trying to say is that IF the vote would have gone the way the way they wanted it, gay people would have hailed the vote as the best thing ever, but since it didn't they yelled and screamed "unfair". Thus "hypocrites" in my view.
You are failing to understand Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is like saying, the government should recognize my relationship and my churches definition of marriage, but it should not recognize your relationship or your churches definition of marriage. It is also a conflict of separation of church and state. Gays want equal marriage rights for heterosexual and homosexual relationships - that's equality not hypocrisy.
bocaguyfl saidAs far as civil rights, I do not think marriage should have to be changed to guy-guy or female-female just because gays WANT it and deem it unfair that they can't get married. Marriage is not an absolute unalienable right. I get offended that gay people compare their struggles to other Civil Rights struggles that other ethic groups and minorities (such as Blacks, Women,etc..) have had.
You must really be hating Corretta Scott King and a host of other leading civil rights activists when she said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coretta_Scott_King#LGBT_equalityOn April 1, 1998 at the Palmer House Hilton in Chicago, King called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood", King stated. "This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group."
and even moreso when she said about gay marriage bans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coretta_Scott_King#LGBT_equalityKing is quoted as saying "Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union. A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriage."
How in the world is marriage consisting of a man and woman, but not including variations of gay coupling "gay bashing"? In all of history marriage has been traditionally between a man and woman and now, just because two guys or two women want to be "married" too, they should get that same honor? I do not agree.
As far as the hypocrisy, I believe it is hypocrisy when gays would have been 100% in favor of the process had Prop 8 allowed gay marriage, but since the reverse happened, they are 100% against the process. They are only in favor of something when it goes their way. When it doesn't, they scream bloody murder and that the process is unfair.
I disagree with Coretta King also. To compare Civil Rights struggles that Blacks or Women have faced to anything that gays face is ludicrous and laughable.
bocaguyfl> all of history marriage has been traditionally between a man and woman
Fail. I'd venture that polygamy has been much more common. One man, many wives. Your "tradition" is selectively narrow and relatively brief.
bocaguyfl> just because two guys or two women want to be "married" too, they should get that same honor? I do not agree.
On what grounds do you disagree? Why shouldn't a pair of men or women be able to marry?
bocaguyfl> To compare Civil Rights struggles that Blacks or Women have faced to anything that gays face is ludicrous and laughable.
Less than half a century ago, bigots were claiming that "marriage has been traditionally between a man and woman... of the same race". There is a perfect parallel between denying marriage to interracial couples and gay couples.
It may be true that blacks suffered more (we didn't go through slavery) or that women struggled longer... but this isn't a competition for who's had it worst.
"With liberty and justice for ALL" doesn't have a footnote exception saying "except for gay people".
bocaguyfl> it is hypocrisy when gays would have been 100% in favor of the process had Prop 8 allowed gay marriage, but since the reverse happened, they are 100% against the process.
As already pointed out, people were against the process regardless.
Do you really think that if there is a ballot initiative to determine if black people can be made slaves that black people would be OK with it only provided it loses but hypocritically against it were it to pass?
bocaguyfl saidHow in the world is marriage consisting of a man and woman, but not including variations of gay coupling "gay bashing"? In all of history marriage has been traditionally between a man and woman and now, just because two guys or two women want to be "married" too, they should get that same honor? I do not agree.
As far as the hypocrisy, I believe it is hypocrisy when gays would have been 100% in favor of the process had Prop 8 allowed gay marriage, but since the reverse happened, they are 100% against the process. They are only in favor of something when it goes their way. When it doesn't, they scream bloody murder and that the process is unfair.
You don't even seem to be able to read the quote correctly, but bans on gay marriage are a form of gay bashing because it is the government legitimizing bigoted language towards gays by saying you are not worthy of recognition .. Mrs King correctly noted that bans DO NOT protect straight marriage .. so the only reason they are put into place is to label gays as not equal. Simply put, it is a law against Gays. The process was indeed unfair. It is not hypocrisy when you hold that laws should apply equally, and when you hold that government should not favor one religions beliefs over another's. Your religious beliefs and dogma have no place in any constitution. By your reasoning all the civil right protests were hypocrisy because various state governments passed segregation laws (yes it was the will of the people!) and people still cried "unfair" towards the process. I find that ludicrous and laughable (to call the protests hypocrisy).
bocaguyfl saidI disagree with Coretta King also. To compare Civil Rights struggles that Blacks or Women have faced to anything that gays face is ludicrous and laughable.
I would never laugh at the heartfelt and informed statements of civil rights leaders like Mrs. King or Rep. John Lewis. What is more important is that Mrs. King disagrees with you. And it was not just Coretta Scott King, it was a whole host of people involved in the civil rights movement and even the NAACP that were against gay marriage bans. I would put their understanding of civil rights light years beyond yours. Your understanding and knowledge of civil rights AND the history of gay persecution is indeed negligible.
I also find it laughable and hypocritical that some one that would post
bocaguyfl saidit boggles my mind that people would vote for Balack Yomama in such overwhelming numbers. This is a party that basically tries to keep poor people beholden to them.
Could even be taken seriously when it comes to civil rights.
I want to go back to the OP. (There are enough other forum topics about gay marriage and Prop 8....)
DrobUA> they can't comprehend what it means to be different. Put yourself in their shoes and be honest with yourself. If it had not been you who was gay, would you really understand it?
That's an excellent question. It's actually quite clear that many people don't get it. They claim, for example, that homosexuality is a "choice". Really? As I tell them when this comes up, this would mean that heterosexuality is also a choice. Ask them: "when did you choose to be heterosexual?" I'm sure they'll tell you that they always (from a young age) knew they were and when puberty hit it was a confirmation. A lot like our stories, no? (If they answer that they did make a choice, that suggests that they are bisexual and choose to repress part of themselves. "Normal" straight people don't say they made a "choice".)
The differences start at that point because whereas the heterosexual male undergoing puberty and liking girls fits in to the mold society creates whereas our reaction is: "Oh, shit, WTF is going on? Am I gay? What does that mean? Maybe it's just a phase and I'll outgrow it? What do I do now..."
I don't mean to be facetious, but what else is there to understand? We are attracted to the same sex just as they are attracted to the opposite sex (and bisexuals are attracted to both sexes). That's hardly a reason (let alone a good reason) to hate or discriminate against someone.
DrobUA> Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
To be flippant (sorry), we aren't asking for "respect" but for equal rights.
DrobUA> They see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society.
Then we must teach them that this view is myopic. I could point you to lists of famous gay people - each who contributed greatly not just to society but to humanity - but that misses the point. Look around you. Not just at a club on a Friday night (you'll see a similar scene at a straight bar) or at a pride parade (or Mardi Gras) but at every-day gay people in every-day life. We are doctors, scientists and engineers, teachers, lawyers, financial planners, realtors, artists, journalists, students, bankers, pilots, politicians.... often even "overachievers". Do we also fill other less (or more) glamorous jobs (retail, factory worker, model, etc.)? Sure. So do straight people.
I think a larger part of the problem is that those people with more "respectable" careers are often those who feel they have to hide it. This makes them "invisible" and makes it appear that we're just a partying bunch of spoiled brats.
That same sampling bias appears in being able to "spot" gays. They assume that every "pansy" is gay (never knowing of all the false positives) and assume that every butch guy is straight (never knowing of all the false negatives). Their experiment lacks a control. In their minds, they can pick out them queers. In reality, they can't and are as likely to be right as wrong.
imperator saidReally, when you get right down to it, Pride festivities only bring all of us diverse individuals-- who sometimes get on each others' nerves-- together because of the stigma that the majority assigned to our sexual feelings. We weren't lumped together by our own choice, but since we were we might as well try to make the best of it and try to show each other some compassion and respect.
Imperator - Excellent post, cheers. I think Pride also makes the point that homosexuality is sexy as hell. Or at least some of the floats do.
imperator said "Really, when you get right down to it, Pride festivities only bring all of us diverse individuals-- who sometimes get on each others' nerves-- together because of the stigma that the majority assigned to our sexual feelings. We weren't lumped together by our own choice, but since we were we might as well try to make the best of it and try to show each other some compassion and respect."
Bull's eye!
In regards to gay marriage - glad we live in Canada. It's hard to comprehend human rights being put to public voting. It's hard to understand that groups can amass a monetary war-chest (like in Vermont right now) to freely and openly persecute another group of citizens.
In Canada when parliament and parliament alone decided the gay marriage issue in a vote, after the Supreme court said OK to gay marriage (and the vote was just to decide whether to go along with the Supreme court or re-visit the marriage issue) US religious groups tried amassing money and opposition up here. Massive and epic fail.
and caesarea4, huge thanks for bringing up the fact that churches used to deny interracial marriages not that long ago!
meninlove said US religious groups tried amassing money and opposition up here. Massive and epic fail.
Merits (or de-merits, rather) of the situation aside, I can imagine that the idea of groups from another country (particularly the USA) trying to influence social policy in Canada might have backfired big time.
SurrealLife saidWTF!!!!!!!!!!! Dude you better be joking!!!!!! No one and I mean no one has the right to tell you to stop contributing to a thread!!!!!!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!!! And none of these 22 can see the irony?
Contributing to the threads is one thing, using abusive language against other RJ members is another. It is against RJ's policy which we all agree to when we sign on. Violation of the policy gets people booted off (and no I am not one of the e-mail senders).
Then wouldn't it be more appropiate to:
Either let him get booted for his abuse or Simply to tell him to stop using such abusive language
No sounds like to me that some people didn't like/agree with what he was saying and wanted to have him shut up.
meninlove said imperator said "Really, when you get right down to it, Pride festivities only bring all of us diverse individuals-- who sometimes get on each others' nerves-- together because of the stigma that the majority assigned to our sexual feelings. We weren't lumped together by our own choice, but since we were we might as well try to make the best of it and try to show each other some compassion and respect..."
and caesarea4, huge thanks for bringing up the fact that churches used to deny interracial marriages not that long ago!
It was not churches that used to deny interracial marriages. I seem to recall that there were actual state laws prohibiting it
SurrealLife saidWTF!!!!!!!!!!! Dude you better be joking!!!!!! No one and I mean no one has the right to tell you to stop contributing to a thread!!!!!!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!!! And none of these 22 can see the irony?
Contributing to the threads is one thing, using abusive language against other RJ members is another. It is against RJ's policy which we all agree to when we sign on. Violation of the policy gets people booted off (and no I am not one of the e-mail senders).
Then wouldn't it be more appropiate to:
Either let him get booted for his abuse or Simply to tell him to stop using such abusive language
No sounds like to me that some people didn't like/agree with what he was saying and wanted to have him shut up.
Once again WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some people might have disagreed with what musclequest was saying and that is why they sent him e-mails, I cannot speak for them.
RJ does not monitor the forums on an ongoing basis, but relies on the forum participants to self-monitor and to adhere to the terms and conditions of using the forum. Most websites are far stricter in terms of keeping the forum topics civil. I think RJ is pretty lenient which could explain the exodus of many RJ forum members in recent months.
As for telling a RJ member to stop using bad language, well musclequest is 36 years old, I am sure he is aware of when he has crossed the line. I don't think I need to appoint myself as RJ forum policeman, or to tell a member when they are being inappropriate.
Hopefully musclequest will continue to contribute to the RJ forums but in a more respectful tone.
Musclequest saidAlright...since someone has taken the time and reported me, I would like to offer my apologies to anyone else that was TRULY offended by my rants and ravings. I get VERY passionate about certain things and have a really bad temper. When I feel personally attacked, I give what I get. Some people are just too sensitive for my aggressiveness. So I do apologise to you all. Cheers, Keith
BlackGuy4You> It was not churches that used to deny interracial marriages. I seem to recall that there were actual state laws prohibiting it.
Churches (though I'm sure not all of them) argued that allowing interracial couples to marry was changing the (religious) definition of marriage and that interracial marriages were an abomination before God (I can just hear someone back then saying: "what next, will people want to marry their dogs, too?")
The laws existed with the complicity of the Churches and the people. It required effort first to change them and many more years for social acceptance to follow.
Caesarea4 saidBlackGuy4You> It was not churches that used to deny interracial marriages. I seem to recall that there were actual state laws prohibiting it.
Churches (though I'm sure not all of them) argued that allowing interracial couples to marry was changing the (religious) definition of marriage and that interracial marriages were an abomination before God (I can just hear someone back then saying: "what next, will people want to marry their dogs, too?")
The laws existed with the complicity of the Churches and the people. It required effort first to change them and many more years for social acceptance to follow.
I still disagree- i recall that it was the case of Loving Vs the stae of Virgina that was the turning point of having this removed from the statutes
Caesarea4 saidThe laws existed with the complicity of the Churches and the people. It required effort first to change them and many more years for social acceptance to follow.
Polling data confirms this too
40 years after Loving V. Virgina happening in 1967 the for/opposed numbers still have not compleatly switch. It isn't like only a small minority was alright with interracial marriage, an overwhelming majority of Americans were against them. Yikes.
Gay marriage is in a much better position than interacial marriage was in terms of public approval. When Loving was decided polling showed Americans were 20% fo and 73% against. Two polls conducted last year show Americans are 44% for gay marriage and 54% against.
man, never mind. I just miss the election season when I had new polling data each day to geek out over.
That was interesting data for interracial marriages MunchingZombie. I am not sure if we can ever truly compare gay marriage with interracial marriage though. Gay marriage was not even contemplated until the last 20 years or so. If you had asked the question in 1958 whether two men should be allowed to marry, you would have probably been sent to a psychiatrist.
I wonder how many people in 1958 even knew that two men could have sex together?
SurrealLife saidWTF!!!!!!!!!!! Dude you better be joking!!!!!! No one and I mean no one has the right to tell you to stop contributing to a thread!!!!!!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!!! And none of these 22 can see the irony?
Contributing to the threads is one thing, using abusive language against other RJ members is another. It is against RJ's policy which we all agree to when we sign on. Violation of the policy gets people booted off (and no I am not one of the e-mail senders).
Then wouldn't it be more appropiate to:
Either let him get booted for his abuse or Simply to tell him to stop using such abusive language
No sounds like to me that some people didn't like/agree with what he was saying and wanted to have him shut up.
Once again WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RJ does not monitor the forums on an ongoing basis, but relies on the forum participants to self-monitor and to adhere to the terms and conditions of using the forum. Most websites are far stricter in terms of keeping the forum topics civil. I think RJ is pretty lenient which could explain the exodus of many RJ forum members in recent months.
As for telling a RJ member to stop using bad language, well musclequest is 36 years old, I am sure he is aware of when he has crossed the line. I don't think I need to appoint myself as RJ forum policeman, or to tell a member when they are being inappropriate.
Actually, I think appointing you as Forum Police is exactly what we should do.
Musclequest said[quote] What? Is that a threat? I mean what are we a bunch of sensitive little girls? Keith
Nope not a threat, I already reported you to RJ this morning. I suggest you re-read the terms of usage of this website.
Wow, there's a shock. Why am I not surprised that you reported me? [/quote]
Well actually you should be shocked, it is the first time I have done that. It was actually not something you directed at me but to others in this forum. But at least you are mature enough to realize you went too far.
Hopefully the insults that RJ members direct at each other will start decreasing in the future.
I am sure we have all taken enough abuse in our lifetimes from straights, we don't need it from fellow gays.
If I feel the need for insults I will go to the next convention of Sothern Baptists wearing a t-shirt with a rainbow flag.
Sweat saidOne other theme that runs through this discussion is the view of some that that immature and exhibitionistic behavior equals gay. In other words, they're saying that those of us who find such stuff unfortunate are not as in touch with our gayness as those who engage in it. I can assure you, I am repressing nothing and have no deep, hidden desire to dance in public in my undies.
Actually, we're saying that your inability to accept the more outrageous members of our community is just as detestable as the inability of heterosexuals to accept us, and that your readiness to blame these people for all of our woes is irrational and morally wrong.
Musclequest said[quote] What? Is that a threat? I mean what are we a bunch of sensitive little girls? Keith
Nope not a threat, I already reported you to RJ this morning. I suggest you re-read the terms of usage of this website.
Wow, there's a shock. Why am I not surprised that you reported me?
Well actually you should be shocked, it is the first time I have done that. It was actually not something you directed at me but to others in this forum. But at least you are mature enough to realize you went too far.
Hopefully the insults that RJ members direct at each other will start decreasing in the future.
I am sure we have all taken enough abuse in our lifetimes from straights, we don't need it from fellow gays.
If I feel the need for insults I will go to the next convention of Sothern Baptists wearing a t-shirt with a rainbow flag. [/quote]
Personally I think it was a complete chicken-shit move on your part to report me. If you found what I said SO OFFENSIVE then you should have privately contacted me. No, you ran like a silly little girl to tattle. And attempt to have me kicked from the site.Boo-hoo If at anytime I have stepped over the line I have apologised to the individuals for it. I will continue to speak my mind, and I will give what I get. People like you are just.....sad. -Keith
1. Do you really think you can please the people you yourself describe as "Right Wing Nut Jobs and Religious Zealots"?
2. As if not for those few outrageous people at the pride march they'd be all in favor of equal rights for gays?
3. They would never again disparage "faggots" and "queers" - including calling gay football players "evil deviant perverts" who threaten "family values"?
4. Don't these RWNJ&RZs also make negative comments about "faggots" and "queers" even when not allegedly prompted by gay pride events?
5. Did they respect the Mattachine society rallies, with the men in suits and the women in skirts and heels?
6. What came first: our marches or their intolerance?
7. What was their excuse for their hate before pride rallies began?
8. Aren't you reversing cause & effect? Weren't pride rallies a response to their bigotry rather than its cause?
DrobUA and Sweat are also invited to answer. Especially if Keith is still too exhausted to respond. Of course the floor is open and anyone else is welcome to answer, too.
Musclequest saidIf at anytime I have stepped over the line I have apologised to the individuals for it. I will continue to speak my mind, and I will give what I get. People like you are just.....sad. -Keith
You don't get to just call people "fuckwads" and "morons" and think you can just apologize for it and that there won't be any consequences.
Because people like you are responsible for all the awesome guys we're losing, I just reported you too.
I think it's not a contest for the "hearts and minds" of the RWNJs and RZs. Some of those may be won over in time, but more than likely they will take their firmly held beliefs to their graves. So it's a matter of those middle ground folks...the ones who might be on the fence...who maybe have some sympathy for gay equality, but aren't completely sold on the wholesomeness factor.
It's easy to write off the RWNJs as lost causes....been that way over time...long before Pride.
But let's consider the target market that IS w/in reach....that can be won over.
Look. The parades are a red herring. The best thing we can do if we want to help our fervent opponents is comply and call our own (broad, collective) identity into question. After all, that's the ultimate basis and prerequisite for the conversion technique used by many of their organizations.
Come on. We may be suckers ;-), but not in this sense of the word. Onward. Please.
Musclequest saidIf at anytime I have stepped over the line I have apologised to the individuals for it. I will continue to speak my mind, and I will give what I get. People like you are just.....sad. -Keith
You don't get to just call people "fuckwads" and "morons" and think you can just apologize for it and that there won't be any consequences.
Because people like you are responsible for all the awesome guys we're losing, I just reported you too.
Boo-hoo. I have already sincerely apologised to the group. And have contacted the owners of this site. There is nothing more I can do. I can't imagine going through life being a snitch. You and your little friend need to pull up your big-boy pants and get over it. So chin up.....there, there, there.....wipe your eyes -Keith
Personally I think it was a complete chicken-shit move on your part to report me. If you found what I said SO OFFENSIVE then you should have privately contacted me. No, you ran like a silly little girl to tattle. And attempt to have me kicked from the site.Boo-hoo If at anytime I have stepped over the line I have apologised to the individuals for it. I will continue to speak my mind, and I will give what I get. People like you are just.....sad. -Keith
Considering the source it is coming from I consider your comments complimentary.. Thanks. I would be worried if someone like you could actually read me accurately. I will let others who have been on this site a lot longer decide whether I lack courage or whether I am "sad". Comments from a person who has never met me, except by reading my profile.
SurrealLife saidPersonally I think it was a complete chicken-shit move on your part to report me. If you found what I said SO OFFENSIVE then you should have privately contacted me. No, you ran like a silly little girl to tattle. And attempt to have me kicked from the site.Boo-hoo If at anytime I have stepped over the line I have apologised to the individuals for it. I will continue to speak my mind, and I will give what I get. People like you are just.....sad. -Keith
Considering the source it is coming from I consider your comments complimentary.. Thanks. I would be worried if someone like you could actually read me accurately. I will let others who have been on this site a lot longer decide whether I lack courage or whether I am "sad". Comments from a person who has never met me, except by reading my profile.
I know all I need to about you. You showed me your true colours. Very cowardly of you. I have no respect for snitches. Just shows your true character. (Or lack there of in your case.) Sad....just sad. Pathetic actually. -Keith
NB- I'll make a deal with you. You can post whatever you want in your response. And I will just let it go. How's that? I wouldn't want to upset you anymore.
Caesarea4 saidA few (short) questions for Musclequest:
1. Do you really think you can please the people you yourself describe as "Right Wing Nut Jobs and Religious Zealots"?
2. As if not for those few outrageous people at the pride march they'd be all in favor of equal rights for gays?
3. They would never again disparage "faggots" and "queers" - including calling gay football players "evil deviant perverts" who threaten "family values"?
4. Don't these RWNJ&RZs also make negative comments about "faggots" and "queers" even when not allegedly prompted by gay pride events?
5. Did they respect the Mattachine society rallies, with the men in suits and the women in skirts and heels?
6. What came first: our marches or their intolerance?
7. What was their excuse for their hate before pride rallies began?
8. Aren't you reversing cause & effect? Weren't pride rallies a response to their bigotry rather than its cause?
DrobUA and Sweat are also invited to answer. Especially if Keith is still too exhausted to respond. Of course the floor is open and anyone else is welcome to answer, too.
LOL! Thanks for the invite, but...come on. All of these questions have been answered by me. And others. This thread is done. You seem oblivious to the responses. So have at it. Keith
Alright guys.....Since I have been getting bombarded with such "complimentary" emails being sent to me directly from my many haters, I have decided to give you an open forum right here. Let me have it. There will be no retribution. I will promise you to no longer post on THIS thread. Come on boys....show your true colours!! Cheers, Keith
Caesarea4 saidA few (short) questions for Musclequest:
1. Do you really think you can please the people you yourself describe as "Right Wing Nut Jobs and Religious Zealots"?
2. As if not for those few outrageous people at the pride march they'd be all in favor of equal rights for gays?
3. They would never again disparage "faggots" and "queers" - including calling gay football players "evil deviant perverts" who threaten "family values"?
4. Don't these RWNJ&RZs also make negative comments about "faggots" and "queers" even when not allegedly prompted by gay pride events?
5. Did they respect the Mattachine society rallies, with the men in suits and the women in skirts and heels?
6. What came first: our marches or their intolerance?
7. What was their excuse for their hate before pride rallies began?
8. Aren't you reversing cause & effect? Weren't pride rallies a response to their bigotry rather than its cause?
DrobUA and Sweat are also invited to answer. Especially if Keith is still too exhausted to respond. Of course the floor is open and anyone else is welcome to answer, too.
LOL! Thanks for the invite, but...come on. All of these questions have been answered by me. And others. This thread is done. You seem oblivious to the responses. So have at it. Keith
I think most of those questions were rhetorical in nature.
Caesarea4 saidA few (short) questions for Musclequest:
1. Do you really think you can please the people you yourself describe as "Right Wing Nut Jobs and Religious Zealots"?
2. As if not for those few outrageous people at the pride march they'd be all in favor of equal rights for gays?
3. They would never again disparage "faggots" and "queers" - including calling gay football players "evil deviant perverts" who threaten "family values"?
4. Don't these RWNJ&RZs also make negative comments about "faggots" and "queers" even when not allegedly prompted by gay pride events?
5. Did they respect the Mattachine society rallies, with the men in suits and the women in skirts and heels?
6. What came first: our marches or their intolerance?
7. What was their excuse for their hate before pride rallies began?
8. Aren't you reversing cause & effect? Weren't pride rallies a response to their bigotry rather than its cause?
DrobUA and Sweat are also invited to answer. Especially if Keith is still too exhausted to respond. Of course the floor is open and anyone else is welcome to answer, too.
1. No, I realize that there will always be people in the "radical" category. People who fail to see reason and close their mind to anything foreign.
2. No, I don't think that people at pride marches are the primary cause of inequality. I just think it dampens an already skewed view of our community. I think as a whole our community is very misunderstood and that is to be expected. Like it or not pride parades are a good portion of the country's only point of reference to the gay community and when they see us dancing in thongs and walking each other on leashes you can't expect to be taken seriously.
Many people have used marti gras as a form of comparison to the "straight version" of pride parades. This is a horrible analogy. How many self respecting doctors or lawyers or politicians do you see flashing their cocks or lifting their shirts? None. You see drunken redneck's and sorority girls. Not the people who are supposed to be representing a community.
I think most of these are rhetorical so I'll skip a few.
6. It isn't about which came first. Gay intolerance has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. Like I said before I think we are already misunderstood enough with out flaunting our sex fetishes to the public.
I'm very aware that I may be a minority among our community but I don't think my sexuality defines me as a person, which is why I don't want others to treat me as if it did. I feel that it is a very small part of what makes me who I am. I'm no more proud to be gay than I am proud to be white. I think it is morals, and choices that make a person who they are.
DrobUA said I'm no more proud to be gay than I am proud to be white. I think it is morals, and choices that make a person who they are.
This misses the point entirely. Pride parades don't evolve from the sense that we are better than anyone ("proud" to be gay), they evolved from the sense that we are as good as anyone and we don't intend to let anyone tell us otherwise.
I know all I need to about you. You showed me your true colours. Very cowardly of you. I have no respect for snitches. Just shows your true character. (Or lack there of in your case.) Sad....just sad. Pathetic actually. -Keith
NB- I'll make a deal with you. You can post whatever you want in your response. And I will just let it go. How's that? I wouldn't want to upset you anymore.
I snitched on you? You posted your abusive language for the whole RJ forum world to see. I complained to RJ because I was asked by a friend to do so and I concurred. His friendship means more to me then your code of honour which I personnally cannot fathom. Besides why should I have to send an e-mail to someone who should know that they are being offensive? It makes no sense.
Trust me Keith I have no trouble sticking up for myself and I have dealt wih far more tempermental and irrational people then you.
So next time I feel you are stepping over the line, I will personally send you an e-mail to tell you to calm down. Jeez.
SweatSecond, it showed me how the gay community doesn't really even know what it is fighting for. This thread clarified for me that a lot of members of the gay community define "gay rights" to include a lot of foolishness that I do not have any interest in fighting for
Can you not see a problem with 'picking and chosing' who has rights?
It's like me saying I believe in equality between blacks and whites, but the Asians can go screw themselves.
"The only right I need to fight for is the right to show a closeup of my big gay bicep on a web site without fear of persecution from straight people. Screw the rest. FU drag queens!"
Sweat saidThose of you with the dismissive stuff about DrobUA's being "very young" reveal more about the weakness of your position than anything else. Just so you know, I'm not "very young."
This thread did a couple of things for me.
First, it connected me with people who get it. That's not the majority in this thread, but so be it.
Second, it showed me how the gay community doesn't really even know what it is fighting for. This thread clarified for me that a lot of members of the gay community define "gay rights" to include a lot of foolishness that I do not have any interest in fighting for. So y'all carry on that fight without me. I'll do my fighting and discussing on the individual level. But I'm not fighting for what you are. I now get that. And I can promise you, my approach is much more likely to include respect and understanding on both sides than the rest of you.
Okay I am totally confused. "Gay rights" that people are fighting for includes foolishness? That is news to me, maybe that is an American phenomenon though. Unless someone is doing something illegal in a pride parade then they have the right to do it. No different then Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or a tailgate party at a football game. Perhaps though you are thinking of other foolishness that I have not gleaned from the postings.
I thought gay rights included freedom from discrimination in housing, jobs, marital status and adoption of children. That is what gays are fighting for.
Several countries in the world have given gays the same basic human rights as straights (including the one I live in), and that was done without obsessing about a parade that happens once a year.
They should be granted, no matter who you are. Felons get these rights. Murders get these rights.
We shouldn't *have* to be "better" to get them, we should have them because we are human. Just like a woman shouldn't have to be better than a man to be able to get the same job for the same pay.
Whatever else I do, parade around in my underwear or sit at home and vote republican (note, that's just two choices of extremes, not intimating that they're the two options), I should get those rights.
Pride parades are *irrelevant* to whether I should get those rights, and I shouldn't have to "prove myself" in order to qualify for the rights that everyone else gets without question.
Exactly, DriverScience. It is insanity to argue that just because some guy who happens to be gay paraded in his underwear, it's legitimate to discriminate against all people who happen to be gay.
Would anyone make the argument that because a mixed race couple murdered their children (which is a lot worse than parading in underwear) that we shouldn't allow mixed race marriages?
What about Tom Cruise dancing in his underwear? Does that mean that [allegedly] straight people shouldn't be allowed to get married?
We aren't arguing for gay people to have the right to parade in underwear - all people already have that right.
The argument is that gay people deserve equal rights (which necessarily includes partying in the street as straight people do) and that it makes no sense to withhold those rights from the entire group because of anecdotal allegations of what some individuals in that group do.
MunchingZombie saidHas there been any actual discussion of gay rights on this thread or have we spent most of the time looking for our narrow beliefs to be reinforced?
If you look very, very hard you will see some discussion; however if you do find it, tell Waldo I said hi.
Man, if someone is basing their opinion on gay rights solely on what their TV shows them of the pride parade they are going to have a negative opinion even if we march down the street wearing three piece suits of muted color.
The tide of public opinion has been moving in our favor regardless of our excellent parties and drag queens. Making a strategy around a heteronormative straw-man isn't some new idea that will catapult us to victory. It is a hollow idea older than the Matachine Society and as effective as the closet.
I mean, I know I am a poll whore, but take a look at this data.
The numbers get better for us each year as older generations die and younger generations start to vote. Surely, our pride parades haven't had less go-go boys and drag queens in recent years. Our parties are just as outrageous as they have ever been, if not more outrageous.
Conforming to a narrow, unrealistic sexual morality isn't winning us support. People identify with our sexual liberation because all people are oppressed by a simple view of what is wrong and right. Pride is about a celebration of individuality tempered with tolerance. If you want to show up wearing that aforementioned suit, then more power to you. I have seen religious fundamentalists at pride parades carrying their signs about doom and hellfire. I have seen queers of all sorts walk up to them and give them a hug, a kiss on the cheek, a beer. And that kind of love is something you wont find anywhere else.
I love your graphs MZ. I assume they reflect the US. I am sure if you look at more "socially liberal" countries like the Netherlands, the graph would be different.
In some countries gays will not get equal rights for another millenium the rate they are going (Saudi Arabia for example). I am just glad I don't live in a country that is so oppressive.
I remember having a convo about this when I was in the military. One of the guys we were serving with was gay, it was just the 4 of us talking we're all good friends, so he didn't feel like any of us would betray him in a way to get him into trouble about his sexuality, we had a deep convo about this topic.
He basically grew up the way I did, in a traditional home, christian and he's always been into warrior culture. The only difference between him and I is that he's pretty conservative, and gay. He told us that his family knows about him, and his partner, and they don't care, he said he's got a tight bond with his family.
He told us that he loves himself, not in an arrogant, vain way, he just loves the person he is, he said he wasn't ashamed of anything as well, and he loves his guy a lot.
Then he went on talking about the gay community/gay life.
He said he considers himself a human, and a good man first, a fighter (he does the same sport as my brother and I MMA) , and a soldier. He said his sexuality means nothing. And I fully agreed with him because my father had always taught me, that your race, sex, sexuality, status, materialistic things, and such don't mean anything when you die, because its not what people remember you for.
He told us that society puts too many labels on people, and that gays do it even more which is sad,he was talking about how intolerant gays can be of others, which he always found funny, because most of them are liberal, and very liberal, and talk a lot of junk about being tolerant, and understanding, and want people to be the same of them, yet will not show it to anyone else.
He said he couldn't understand why anyone who respected themselves, would take part in the freak shows known as gay pride, and take pride in that, when all it does is reinforce all that is negative about the gay world, and makes people who've always had ill views, or nearly, confirm them, and then think all gays are like that. He said the way gays have put themselves out there, and what mainstream gay culture deems to be so important has hurt gay people.
He said he thinks its silly how gays go on and on and on about gay rights, when they don't even treat themselves too good, you have to respect yourself, and hold yourself up to a better standard before you demand respect from others (This is something Martin Luther King believed as well) , and treat others with respect. He said the gay community doesn't much respect other people's views, and can be just as nasty as the people who hate them, which by the way aren't seen in a good light by the majority of the country either.
I remember him saying the only thing gays want is the right to marry, he said that no politician in the white house thus far has been for gay marriage, so to sit there bashing Bush, or McCain over it, when Obama has the same views, is just silly. He said even if tomorrow a president came up and granted them that right, they'd still be bitching.
Times have changed greatly in this country, gays are more out there, and while they don't present themselves in such a good way 98% of the time, they are still out there, and accepted more than they've ever been. He said its the same thing in the black community, blacks have gone through a lot in this country, and things are no longer the way they use to be, the only people who will sit back and say nothing's changed, are the poverty pimps, and the race hustlers, and the forever stupid white guilty liberals who coddle them, which in the end helps none.
He said that no politician, or social policy would ever strip mankind of ignorance, and hate, that is a human imperfection, and you will run into it no matter where you go in this world unfortunately, that's something only god can cure. He went on talking about how after a group has fought the battle and won, because blacks are no longer treated or even looked at the same way as they were by many back in the day, as well as the women's groups that fought to gain the rights of women ect, there are always people within these groups that want to keep the fighting going, the emotion going, it makes them feel important, or gives them some kind of power, so they will always continue to bitch about something.
I personally think that if gay men like him were put out there more, instead of the crap that's been put out there, people would have a much different view towards gay men. I told him he's not the first gay guy I've heard believe such things, and that he should start some community of gays who are more like him, to let those guys know they aren't alone or few, and to show people that not all gay men are like the stupidity and garbage thrown out there by the mainstream gay culture every day.
I believe if gays broke away from that whole world, and started cleaning up their community things would change. Its the same within the black community, there is so much going on, that so many are afraid to talk about, because they don't want to be labeled an Uncle Tom, or racist, but its something the black community has to change themselves, no amount of government, or touchy feely politically correct limp wristed liberal can fix.
Because clearly the straight white middle/upper class has totally earned their rights by respecting themselves. I mean look how much Brittney Spears respects herself! 50% of straight marriages end in divorce, but somehow they've earned the right to marry and we haven't? Somehow it's because we "don't respect ourselves" and "aren't clean?" Have you BEEN to a football game? Have you seen NASCAR? Have you seen a college party with kids puking their guts out? There's some great respect.
Civil/Human rights are not about the community behaving in a way that YOU think is "respectful." That's the *point* of civil rights, you don't "earn" them, they are yours by virtue of your being born and being human.
P.S. Just because you find something shameful/disrespectful doesn't mean that others do, or that you're right and they're wrong. Many people think having gay sex at all is "disrespectful" to god and your body. That doesn't make them right, it makes them self-righteous assholes.
MunchingZombiePeople identify with our sexual liberation because all people are oppressed by a simple view of what is wrong and right. Pride is about a celebration of individuality tempered with tolerance.
DrobUA said I'm no more proud to be gay than I am proud to be white. I think it is morals, and choices that make a person who they are.
This misses the point entirely. Pride parades don't evolve from the sense that we are better than anyone ("proud" to be gay), they evolved from the sense that we are as good as anyone and we don't intend to let anyone tell us otherwise.
You are very young.
I am very young. I'm also very smart. If saying I'm young is the only rebuttal you have than I'm obviously doing a pretty good job getting my point across.
DrobUA said I'm no more proud to be gay than I am proud to be white. I think it is morals, and choices that make a person who they are.
This misses the point entirely. Pride parades don't evolve from the sense that we are better than anyone ("proud" to be gay), they evolved from the sense that we are as good as anyone and we don't intend to let anyone tell us otherwise.
You are very young.
I am very young. I'm also very smart. If saying I'm young is the only rebuttal you have than I'm obviously doing a pretty good job getting my point across.
Tell me why you should be able to express your sexuality freely, but you don't think that drag queens should be able to.
If you can answer that, I'll rethink my whole position.
DiverScience saidBecause you're missing the entire point.
They are civil rights, HUMAN rights.
They should be granted, no matter who you are. Felons get these rights. Murders get these rights.
We shouldn't *have* to be "better" to get them, we should have them because we are human. Just like a woman shouldn't have to be better than a man to be able to get the same job for the same pay.
Whatever else I do, parade around in my underwear or sit at home and vote republican (note, that's just two choices of extremes, not intimating that they're the two options), I should get those rights.
Pride parades are *irrelevant* to whether I should get those rights, and I shouldn't have to "prove myself" in order to qualify for the rights that everyone else gets without question.
No I understand that we SHOULD have the same rights as everyone else. There are a lot of things that SHOULD be happening in the world, but the fact is they aren't.
Pride parades SHOULD be irrelevant to whether you should get those rights but that doesn't mean they are. It's about getting the right messages out. If you don't want to be treated differently, you need to get the message out that you're sexuality doesn't make you a different species. You need to give the voter's a point of reference that they can understand. Help them see things from your perspective.
I was talking to a guy the other day who said that he thinks women's only purpose is to procreate and other than that they are worthless. I asked if he thought that way about his mother and he said yes that is how I feel about the thing that gave birth to me. Then I asked would you feel this way if you were a woman? - no response.
You need to help people understand. Not make them more confused.
I remember having a convo about this when I was in the military. One of the guys we were serving with was gay, it was just the 4 of us talking we're all good friends, so he didn't feel like any of us would betray him in a way to get him into trouble about his sexuality, we had a deep convo about this topic.
He basically grew up the way I did, in a traditional home, christian and he's always been into warrior culture. The only difference between him and I is that he's pretty conservative, and gay. He told us that his family knows about him, and his partner, and they don't care, he said he's got a tight bond with his family.
He told us that he loves himself, not in an arrogant, vain way, he just loves the person he is, he said he wasn't ashamed of anything as well, and he loves his guy a lot.
Then he went on talking about the gay community/gay life.
He said he considers himself a human, and a good man first, a fighter (he does the same sport as my brother and I MMA) , and a soldier. He said his sexuality means nothing. And I fully agreed with him because my father had always taught me, that your race, sex, sexuality, status, materialistic things, and such don't mean anything when you die, because its not what people remember you for.
He told us that society puts too many labels on people, and that gays do it even more which is sad,he was talking about how intolerant gays can be of others, which he always found funny, because most of them are liberal, and very liberal, and talk a lot of junk about being tolerant, and understanding, and want people to be the same of them, yet will not show it to anyone else.
He said he couldn't understand why anyone who respected themselves, would take part in the freak shows known as gay pride, and take pride in that, when all it does is reinforce all that is negative about the gay world, and makes people who've always had ill views, or nearly, confirm them, and then think all gays are like that. He said the way gays have put themselves out there, and what mainstream gay culture deems to be so important has hurt gay people.
He said he thinks its silly how gays go on and on and on about gay rights, when they don't even treat themselves too good, you have to respect yourself, and hold yourself up to a better standard before you demand respect from others (This is something Martin Luther King believed as well) , and treat others with respect. He said the gay community doesn't much respect other people's views, and can be just as nasty as the people who hate them, which by the way aren't seen in a good light by the majority of the country either.
I remember him saying the only thing gays want is the right to marry, he said that no politician in the white house thus far has been for gay marriage, so to sit there bashing Bush, or McCain over it, when Obama has the same views, is just silly. He said even if tomorrow a president came up and granted them that right, they'd still be bitching.
Times have changed greatly in this country, gays are more out there, and while they don't present themselves in such a good way 98% of the time, they are still out there, and accepted more than they've ever been. He said its the same thing in the black community, blacks have gone through a lot in this country, and things are no longer the way they use to be, the only people who will sit back and say nothing's changed, are the poverty pimps, and the race hustlers, and the forever stupid white guilty liberals who coddle them, which in the end helps none.
He said that no politician, or social policy would ever strip mankind of ignorance, and hate, that is a human imperfection, and you will run into it no matter where you go in this world unfortunately, that's something only god can cure. He went on talking about how after a group has fought the battle and won, because blacks are no longer treated or even looked at the same way as they were by many back in the day, as well as the women's groups that fought to gain the rights of women ect, there are always people within these groups that want to keep the fighting going, the emotion going, it makes them feel important, or gives them some kind of power, so they will always continue to bitch about something.
I personally think that if gay men like him were put out there more, instead of the crap that's been put out there, people would have a much different view towards gay men. I told him he's not the first gay guy I've heard believe such things, and that he should start some community of gays who are more like him, to let those guys know they aren't alone or few, and to show people that not all gay men are like the stupidity and garbage thrown out there by the mainstream gay culture every day.
I believe if gays broke away from that whole world, and started cleaning up their community things would change. Its the same within the black community, there is so much going on, that so many are afraid to talk about, because they don't want to be labeled an Uncle Tom, or racist, but its something the black community has to change themselves, no amount of government, or touchy feely politically correct limp wristed liberal can fix.
"I am very young. I'm also very smart. If saying I'm young is the only rebuttal you have than I'm obviously doing a pretty good job getting my point across."
What's obvious, is that you aren't as smart as you think. Your third sentence, which tried desperately to support your second sentence should use "then" not "than" and you should have used a comma to separate the two thoughts that that not-terribly smart sentence tries to convey.
There's an expression that says it's better to let the world think you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and prove them correct. Take heed.
DrobUA said I'm no more proud to be gay than I am proud to be white. I think it is morals, and choices that make a person who they are.
This misses the point entirely. Pride parades don't evolve from the sense that we are better than anyone ("proud" to be gay), they evolved from the sense that we are as good as anyone and we don't intend to let anyone tell us otherwise.
You are very young.
I am very young. I'm also very smart. If saying I'm young is the only rebuttal you have than I'm obviously doing a pretty good job getting my point across.
Tell me why you should be able to express your sexuality freely, but you don't think that drag queens should be able to.
If you can answer that, I'll rethink my whole position.
I never said drag queens shouldn't be able to express their sexuality freely. I have no problem what so ever with drag queens. I guess it depends on what you mean by expressing freely. I never make any kind of sexual expressions in public. I'm not fighting for the right to express my sexuality in public. I want the right to marry and be treated as an equal. In order to get that I think we need to stop focussing on people accepting how we express our sexuality and start focussing on the fact that we want the same things they want. To fall in love and be committed to one person for the rest of our lives.
I'm from Chicago which has a large gay population and i have to say, the stereotype of gays flaunting themselves all over is just that...a stereotype. I live right in the heart of the gay community and i do not see pink speedos all over...our pride parade is suitable for children...our clubs are more tame than their hederosexual counterparts. It's much safer to bring children through boystown on a friday night than it is to bring them to where folks hang out after a Cubs game!
The news might make it look like all gay men are sluts who dont care about how society sees them but that is far from the day to day truth of real life.
So you're arguing that everyone should conform to some magical "better" state that you've derived from your "very smart" brain so that we can get basic civil rights?
And what, pray tell, will this actually achieve? The people who don't want to give us rights don't *care* how we act. They already happily ignore all the successful gay parents, all the "normal" (read heteronormative) gay people, all the studies that show that kids raised by gay parents do - if anything - BETTER than other kids.
You don't seem to understand, it doesn't matter. And conforming to someone else's idea of "respectful" and "better" is not only not going to help, it defeats the *purpose* of having the right to live your own life as you see fit.
We could all be perfect puritans, and it wouldn't change a damned thing.
Suffrage didn't happen because women were "better" women of the time (read quiet, submissive housewives). Black rights didn't happen because they conformed to society's norms and expectations for "respect." They happened because people got up and made noise. They may have been peaceful, they may have been good people, but they were not quiet, they did not conform, and they sure as hell didn't let someone else tell them how to live their lives or define "respectful" for them.
McGay said"I am very young. I'm also very smart. If saying I'm young is the only rebuttal you have than I'm obviously doing a pretty good job getting my point across."
What's obvious, is that you aren't as smart as you think. Your third sentence, which tried desperately to support your second sentence should use "then" not "than" and you should have used a comma to separate the two thoughts that that not-terribly smart sentence tries to convey.
There's an expression that says it's better to let the world think you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and prove them correct. Take heed.
Your IQ has nothing to do with your grammar or how many facts you know. It has to do with how you process thoughts and solve problems. Attack my ideas, not my grammar.
You say you never express your sexuality in public. So you never hold hands? Never kiss? You don't want to? You don't want any straight people to either? You don't want to ever see a billboard of anyone kissing, holding hands, hugging, giving a wedding ring, etc?
Those are all expressions of sexuality, and things which we are denied. Things which transexuals, non-gender-normatives, and drag queens are denied even moreso.
So, either you are fighting for public sexual expression, or you should be lobbying to stop all sexual expression at all everywhere, or, you're a hypocrite.
DiverScience saidSo you're arguing that everyone should conform to some magical "better" state that you've derived from your "very smart" brain so that we can get basic civil rights?
And what, pray tell, will this actually achieve? The people who don't want to give us rights don't *care* how we act. They already happily ignore all the successful gay parents, all the "normal" (read heteronormative) gay people, all the studies that show that kids raised by gay parents do - if anything - BETTER than other kids.
You don't seem to understand, it doesn't matter. And conforming to someone else's idea of "respectful" and "better" is not only not going to help, it defeats the *purpose* of having the right to live your own life as you see fit.
We could all be perfect puritans, and it wouldn't change a damned thing.
Suffrage didn't happen because women were "better" women of the time (read quiet, submissive housewives). Black rights didn't happen because they conformed to society's norms and expectations for "respect." They happened because people got up and made noise. They may have been peaceful, they may have been good people, but they were not quiet, they did not conform, and they sure as hell didn't let someone else tell them how to live their lives or define "respectful" for them.
You don't seem to understand my point either. I'm not saying to conform to a different lifestyle. I'm saying that you need to give the general public a frame of reference that they can understand. I come from a place with a small gay population so I have a very good idea of how the general public views the gay community. I'm not saying change you're everyday life. I'm saying when you are representing the community represent with some self respect.
And I'm saying who are you to puritanically define "self-respect?" Who are you to tell me how I should act when I'm "representing the gay community?"
Or, to turn it on it's head, who the fuck am I to tell you you have to gyrate on a float? Who am I to tell you that you shouldn't drink and puke? Who am I to tell you who you should have sex with or when?
You have no more right to tell Joe Gay how he should "respect himself" than I do to tell you to get on that float.
EVEN if it did matter, BUT IT DOESN'T. We could all be Mother Theresa and they would STILL hate us and STILL deny us our rights.
I never said drag queens shouldn't be able to express their sexuality freely. I have no problem what so ever with drag queens. I guess it depends on what you mean by expressing freely. I never make any kind of sexual expressions in public. I'm not fighting for the right to express my sexuality in public. I want the right to marry and be treated as an equal. In order to get that I think we need to stop focussing on people accepting how we express our sexuality and start focussing on the fact that we want the same things they want. To fall in love and be committed to one person for the rest of our lives.
I guess this issue must be more important in certain parts of the US. I don't remember gay people in Canada in recent years fighting too much about the right to freely express their sexuality. Gay marriage had until recently been front and centre.
There is always a bit of controversy about the extreme expression of a few people on pride day (more topless women then gay men) but that has lured more straights then anything, much to the joy of the local merchants who know a good moneymaker when they see one.
Its' a funny thing about gay rights. As soon as a hurdle like gay marriage is jumped, people no longer care about it. You just rarely hear about it anymore in Canada
Perhaps my US friends can indicate where the fight for freely expressing one's sexuality has been a hot button issue in the 50 states.
DiverScience saidYou say you never express your sexuality in public. So you never hold hands? Never kiss? You don't want to? You don't want any straight people to either? You don't want to ever see a billboard of anyone kissing, holding hands, hugging, giving a wedding ring, etc?
Those are all expressions of sexuality, and things which we are denied. Things which transexuals, non-gender-normatives, and drag queens are denied even moreso.
So, either you are fighting for public sexual expression, or you should be lobbying to stop all sexual expression at all everywhere, or, you're a hypocrite.
Well first, no I don't kiss or hold hands in public because I don't feel the need to. Not because I'm ashamed of it but because I understand that it makes people uncomfortable and I respect that. Should it make people uncomfortable? No, but it does and I understand that at this day and age thats the way most people were raised and I don't hold that against them.
That isn't the kind of sexual expressions I was referring to. Kissing, hugging, giving a wedding ring, are all things that the general public sees as acceptable public displays of affection. Walking your partner on a leash in a thong is not. I don't understand how you can't see the difference.
I don't see how you can fail to see that there is no line.
ALL you're doing in this argument is redefining "us" and "them" such that you are "us" instead of "them."
You are saying, "We don't have rights because you are dirty dirty people."
Which is crap. We don't have rights because people have denied us rights.
You say that clearly x is wrong. Says who? Who draws the line? You've picked end cases to make it LOOK like it's clear, BUT IT'S NOT.
Clearly, if you holding your boyfriend's hand makes people uncomfortable, then many people think THAT is the line that should be drawn. No PDA's from gay people, ever. Some people would say it stops at kissing. Or deep kissing, or making out, or being shirtless, or wearing a collar...
So is wearing a collar ok, but not a collar with a leash? Is a collar with a leash ok, but not a collar with a leash if you're also wearing short shorts (perfectly legal garb any other day of the year)? Only if both people are male?
NewJockJesse saidI'm from Chicago which has a large gay population and i have to say, the stereotype of gays flaunting themselves all over is just that...a stereotype. I live right in the heart of the gay community and i do not see pink speedos all over...our pride parade is suitable for children...our clubs are more tame than their hederosexual counterparts. It's much safer to bring children through boystown on a friday night than it is to bring them to where folks hang out after a Cubs game!
The news might make it look like all gay men are sluts who dont care about how society sees them but that is far from the day to day truth of real life.
Exactly, however, the rest of the country doesn't know this. All they see is what's on the news. When I was figuring out who I was I didn't even think I was gay because my views on things were so far from what I had seen of the gay community. Even though we see how things really are doesn't mean the public is going to make that effort. So when we do get publicity what message should we be portraying?
DiverScience saidI don't see how you can fail to see that there is no line.
ALL you're doing in this argument is redefining "us" and "them" such that you are "us" instead of "them."
You are saying, "We don't have rights because you are dirty dirty people."
Which is crap. We don't have rights because people have denied us rights.
You say that clearly x is wrong. Says who? Who draws the line? You've picked end cases to make it LOOK like it's clear, BUT IT'S NOT.
Clearly, if you holding your boyfriend's hand makes people uncomfortable, then many people think THAT is the line that should be drawn. No PDA's from gay people, ever. Some people would say it stops at kissing. Or deep kissing, or making out, or being shirtless, or wearing a collar...
So is wearing a collar ok, but not a collar with a leash? Is a collar with a leash ok, but not a collar with a leash if you're also wearing short shorts (perfectly legal garb any other day of the year)? Only if both people are male?
Who draws the line?
Well first you are putting words in my mouth. Second, why not use the same line as the people you want to be equal to? You NEVER see a straight man walking his girlfriend on a leash. If straight women walk the streets in thongs then be my guest. Do you see my point?
And according to the tv all mexicans are lazy and all black people are violent.
According to much of the TV right now all liberals are trying to end the country.
The media is, and always will be, sensationalist. They will always report on the priest who died of strangulation while performing sex acts on himself.
There are currently thousands of happy, quite, mainstream gays. They aren't reported on. What makes you think that's going to change just because the drag queens stop showing up to pride and all go back to hide in their closets?
RuggerATX saidMaybe you little twerps just need to SHUT OFF THE FRIGGING TV and look in a REAL mirror.
Because right now, you sound like a bunch of suckers playing right into the hands of those who want to eliminate us.
You are again missing the point. The rest of the world is not going to look for a reason to give you rights. They are going to look for a reason NOT to. You can't tell everyone to go out and see what the gay community is really like. If you were straight would you take the time to see that everyone is treated equally? NO. I need to spoon feed the public what we are really about. They aren't going to take it willingly.
Yes. I have seen guys on leashes. Quite often in many major cities, actually. Maybe you need to step outside your bubble and see that not everyone lives like you.
You didn't answer my question, where do you draw the line? Why there?
And no, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm using your words to interpret what you're saying. Not what you *think* you're saying, but the actual result of taking your suggestion. You would tell a large segment of the population that it's their fault we don't have rights, that they are too weird or dirty or different or freaky and so we don't have rights. You are blaming the victim, telling the girl it's her fault she was raped because she wore the wrong clothes.
Freaks deserve rights, and the right to be freaks. And if you tell them they don't, all you're going to do is make the voice we shout for rights with weaker, and smaller.
You say in your title you want to hear other opinions. You say in your post, "try to understand it from their perspective."
You might try listening to the other opinions you've solicited, and try to see it from their perspective. Listen to some of the people who've been at this longer than you, and try to understand why they disagree so vehemently.
DiverScience saidAnd according to the tv all mexicans are lazy and all black people are violent.
According to much of the TV right now all liberals are trying to end the country.
The media is, and always will be, sensationalist. They will always report on the priest who died of strangulation while performing sex acts on himself.
There are currently thousands of happy, quite, mainstream gays. They aren't reported on. What makes you think that's going to change just because the drag queens stop showing up to pride and all go back to hide in their closets?
I'm not saying go back in the closet! I'm saying that when you DO get a chance to portray yourself to the rest of the world SEND THE RIGHT MESSAGE! Make the happy mainstream gays the story that is reported on. We can't even decide what message we want to send between ourselves.
RuggerATX saidMaybe you little twerps just need to SHUT OFF THE FRIGGING TV and look in a REAL mirror.
Because right now, you sound like a bunch of suckers playing right into the hands of those who want to eliminate us.
You are again missing the point. The rest of the world is not going to look for a reason to give you rights. They are going to look for a reason NOT to. You can't tell everyone to go out and see what the gay community is really like. If you were straight would you take the time to see that everyone is treated equally? NO. I need to spoon feed the public what we are really about. They aren't going to take it willingly.
I am so glad I don't live in your world. Whatever planet it is, it sounds like it really sucks.
It's hard to see whether someone is being treated equally if you can't see them to begin with. I came out to my straight friends. Most are allies and vote in favor of my rights. They didn't say "no deal" because a dude in a vegas showgirl getup flashed across a CNN or FoX News broadcast.
You should be demonizing the closet cases, not the flambuoyant ones. What you are proposing is dangerous to our community. We can try to get you to loosen up and unite with the vast variety that is the rest of us, but at this point I'm afraid youa re as much an enemy as our detractors. Actually, worse, because you seem to be influencing some impressionable youing'uns here.
What's your real problem? How did you get this way? Do you go to bed whimpering about your vile gayness every night?
Someone fucked you up and now instead of owning up to it and doing the hard work you are trying to get us to be as fucked up as you. No deal.
DrobUA: What sick little part inside of you wants other people to act against their true identity? Don't you know that's one way that criminals are born?
DiverScience saidYes. I have seen guys on leashes. Quite often in many major cities, actually. Maybe you need to step outside your bubble and see that not everyone lives like you.
You didn't answer my question, where do you draw the line? Why there?
And no, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm using your words to interpret what you're saying. Not what you *think* you're saying, but the actual result of taking your suggestion. You would tell a large segment of the population that it's their fault we don't have rights, that they are too weird or dirty or different or freaky and so we don't have rights. You are blaming the victim, telling the girl it's her fault she was raped because she wore the wrong clothes.
Freaks deserve rights, and the right to be freaks. And if you tell them they don't, all you're going to do is make the voice we shout for rights with weaker, and smaller.
Oh trust me I understand very well that not everyone is like me. I did answer the question. I said draw the line in the same place that the straight community draws the line. If you don't you are never going to be taken seriously. You have seen "guys on leashes" and I very highly doubt that these were straight men. Freaks may deserve the right to be freaks but that doesn't mean its gonna happen. As long as they are the ones in the spotlight that is how we all are going to be viewed. If you think that the "freaks" are the majority population of the gay community than maybe the public is right. Maybe we don't want the same things that they have. Maybe we want marriages with multiple partners. You need to ask yourself what exactly are you fighting for. If we can't decide that then we have no shot.
DrobUA said I'm not saying go back in the closet! I'm saying that when you DO get a chance to portray yourself to the rest of the world SEND THE RIGHT MESSAGE! Make the happy mainstream gays the story that is reported on. We can't even decide what message we want to send between ourselves.
YES YOU ARE.
You are saying, "Don't be a drag queen. Don't be a leather bear. Don't be XYZ go be mainstream because you're too freaky."
That is *exactly* what you are saying. "Pretend to be someone you are not."
Just because you're telling them to do it "When you get a chance to portray yourself" doesn't mean you're not telling them to do it.
DiverScience saidYou say in your title you want to hear other opinions. You say in your post, "try to understand it from their perspective."
You might try listening to the other opinions you've solicited, and try to see it from their perspective. Listen to some of the people who've been at this longer than you, and try to understand why they disagree so vehemently.
Diver: He's 19. He knows everything, or at the very least, way more than us. Remeber how f*cking faultless and smart we were at that age? ;-)
DrobUA said I'm not saying go back in the closet! I'm saying that when you DO get a chance to portray yourself to the rest of the world SEND THE RIGHT MESSAGE! Make the happy mainstream gays the story that is reported on. We can't even decide what message we want to send between ourselves.
YES YOU ARE.
You are saying, "Don't be a drag queen. Don't be a leather bear. Don't be XYZ go be mainstream because you're too freaky."
That is *exactly* what you are saying. "Pretend to be someone you are not."
Just because you're telling them to do it "When you get a chance to portray yourself" doesn't mean you're not telling them to do it.
F*cking little double-talker. I don't even think he knows what he is really trying to say (probably because it is "I really hate homos, especially my faggot self." which wouldn't go over very well).
Doesn't really matter what your opinion of their sexuality is. They were straight. I say again, go out and experience the real world.
WHICH straight line do we pick? Boston? Little Rock? The Boston Flea?
As for multiple partners, why not? There's certainly historical precedent for it. It's done and has been done in plenty of straight cultures if you're using that brilliant yard stick.
RuggerATX saidMaybe you little twerps just need to SHUT OFF THE FRIGGING TV and look in a REAL mirror.
Because right now, you sound like a bunch of suckers playing right into the hands of those who want to eliminate us.
You are again missing the point. The rest of the world is not going to look for a reason to give you rights. They are going to look for a reason NOT to. You can't tell everyone to go out and see what the gay community is really like. If you were straight would you take the time to see that everyone is treated equally? NO. I need to spoon feed the public what we are really about. They aren't going to take it willingly.
I am so glad I don't live in your world. Whatever planet it is, it sounds like it really sucks.
It's hard to see whether someone is being treated equally if you can't see them to begin with. I came out to my straight friends. Most are allies and vote in favor of my rights. They didn't say "no deal" because a dude in a vegas showgirl getup flashed across a CNN or FoX News broadcast.
You should be demonizing the closet cases, not the flambuoyant ones. What you are proposing is dangerous to our community. We can try to get you to loosen up and unite with the vast variety that is the rest of us, but at this point I'm afraid youa re as much an enemy as our detractors. Actually, worse, because you seem to be influencing some impressionable youing'uns here.
What's your real problem? How did you get this way? Do you go to bed whimpering about your vile gayness every night?
Someone fucked you up and now instead of owning up to it and doing the hard work you are trying to get us to be as fucked up as you. No deal.
Yes a unjust world does suck. We all live in it. All my friends have had no problem accepting me because they see that it doesn't change who I am. All I'm trying to do is help you see the other side. Unless you understand it you have no chance in fighting it. My "real problem" is none of your business but if it will help you understand I will share. When I was 12 I was still figuring out who I was as most of us were. I was stalked by a gay man in his late 30's for 2 weeks before he kidnapped me. I got away safely by jumping out of a moving car. For a very long time yes, I went to bed crying at night because I thought that I had something in common with the sick son of a bitch that took me. Now I have come to realize that we are 2 different breeds. Am I trying to make you as fucked up as I am? No, I'm trying to help you understand why the other side is the way they are because I do understand.
DiverScience saidDoesn't really matter what your opinion of their sexuality is. They were straight. I say again, go out and experience the real world.
WHICH straight line do we pick? Boston? Little Rock? The Boston Flea?
As for multiple partners, why not? There's certainly historical precedent for it. It's done and has been done in plenty of straight cultures if you're using that brilliant yard stick.
Not in this country. As a matter of fact you are imprisoned for it. I'm just telling you why it's not gonna happen. Put yourself in the point of view of the christian radical. You are just as narrow minded as they are. You are failing to see both sides. The basis of our country is morales and family values. If you are proposing something like multiple partners you are in the wrong country.
DrobUA said I'm not saying go back in the closet! I'm saying that when you DO get a chance to portray yourself to the rest of the world SEND THE RIGHT MESSAGE! Make the happy mainstream gays the story that is reported on. We can't even decide what message we want to send between ourselves.
YES YOU ARE.
You are saying, "Don't be a drag queen. Don't be a leather bear. Don't be XYZ go be mainstream because you're too freaky."
That is *exactly* what you are saying. "Pretend to be someone you are not."
Just because you're telling them to do it "When you get a chance to portray yourself" doesn't mean you're not telling them to do it.
F*cking little double-talker. I don't even think he knows what he is really trying to say (probably because it is "I really hate homos, especially my faggot self." which wouldn't go over very well).
I'm sorry you are too stupid to understand. I'm not saying don't be a drag queen or walk your partner on a leash. I'm saying the straight community doesn't express what they do in the bedroom in public, so why do you need to? My god you are dense.
My friends have accepted me without trouble. That's because they're *friends* not because I'm heteronormative.
You accuse us of putting words in your mouth and thinking we know what you're about. And yet, you're doing the same thing to us. You presume that our experience with the world is invalid because it doesn't fit with your view of it. And yet, we've lived our lives just as you've lived yours and gained an understanding of the world that fits the world we live in.
And that's why people reference your age. Because you haven't experienced as much of the world and its diversity as others have. Your world view is limited by that inexperience. Just because you haven't seen a man on a leash held by a woman in fishnets doesn't mean it's not common in some places, just not places you frequent, and not "sensational" enough to make the news there.
If I put myself in the shoes of a Christianist, then everything I do disrespects my body and God. Every time I masturbate, I commit the sin of Onan. Every time I have sex with a guy, I commit the sin of Sodomy.
I could be the best father ever, the most normal person ever, and those things will *always* mean that it doesn't matter. I could save a million lives and I would still be going to Hell.
Look at teachers fired for being gay. Not *teaching* gayness, not anything innappropriate, for BEING gay.
Read your history. We were founded on principles of Natural Law inspired by the likes of John Locke, not on "Family Values"
DiverScience saidYou say you understand the other side.
We say you don't.
My friends have accepted me without trouble. That's because they're *friends* not because I'm heteronormative.
You accuse us of putting words in your mouth and thinking we know what you're about. And yet, you're doing the same thing to us. You presume that our experience with the world is invalid because it doesn't fit with your view of it. And yet, we've lived our lives just as you've lived yours and gained an understanding of the world that fits the world we live in.
And that's why people reference your age. Because you haven't experienced as much of the world and its diversity as others have. Your world view is limited by that inexperience. Just because you haven't seen a man on a leash held by a woman in fishnets doesn't mean it's not common in some places, just not places you frequent, and not "sensational" enough to make the news there.
Your friends are not the other side. I'm saying I know the other side because I take the time to listen. The religious radical's standing on the streets telling everyone they are going to hell. Instead of just blowing it off I talk to them and try and understand why. None of you have any idea what my life experiences have been. I'm not putting words in your mouth or telling you your experiences are invalid. I'm telling you that they don't fit with the general public who is deciding your future. The few votes that you get from the straight men on leashes don't even compare to the number of conservative christians. I don't see why you can't understand that.
DiverScience saidYou say in your title you want to hear other opinions. You say in your post, "try to understand it from their perspective."
You might try listening to the other opinions you've solicited, and try to see it from their perspective. Listen to some of the people who've been at this longer than you, and try to understand why they disagree so vehemently.
Diver: He's 19. He knows everything, or at the very least, way more than us. Remeber how f*cking faultless and smart we were at that age? ;-)
Being old doesn't make you wise. You still can't open your mind to see that when it comes to a system where majority rules you need to understand the perspective of the majority. You can say that no matter what you do everyone is still gonna hate you and for some people that is true. If it gets me a shot at being treated as an equal why not try? Is sexual public displays more important to you than your right to marry? If it is then we aren't fighting the same fight.
Yes you are. You presume I don't work with a Seventh Day Adventist, that I'm not friends with dyed in the wool McCainites, that I wasn't close friends with a Limbaugh worshipper in high school, etc etc etc.
You presume that you know all about the public, despite knowing nothing about our experiences with them. I've talked to those people. I've been friends with some of them. And whether or not I parade someone around on a leash has never ever had any bearing on whether they accepted me and thought I deserved rights or not. Either they thought I deserved them because I was a person, or they thought I didn't because I was gay and no amount of "normalcy" was going to make it ok.
You said you wanted to hear other people's opinions. Clearly, you don't. You'd rather stand on your soap box and believe you have some magic understanding of the world that would fix everything if only we all conformed to your views of what's acceptable.
It's ok. You're 19. In another 10 years, you'll look back and be able to say, "Wow, I'm glad I grew from that arrogant son-of-a-bitch into a real thinking person." It's a common teenage trait. Ask your parents. If they're honest, they'll tell you they thought they knew how the world worked then too.
DiverScience saidYes you are. You presume I don't work with a Seventh Day Adventist, that I'm not friends with dyed in the wool McCainites, that I wasn't close friends with a Limbaugh worshipper in high school, etc etc etc.
You presume that you know all about the public, despite knowing nothing about our experiences with them. I've talked to those people. I've been friends with some of them. And whether or not I parade someone around on a leash has never ever had any bearing on whether they accepted me and thought I deserved rights or not. Either they thought I deserved them because I was a person, or they thought I didn't because I was gay and no amount of "normalcy" was going to make it ok.
You said you wanted to hear other people's opinions. Clearly, you don't. You'd rather stand on your soap box and believe you have some magic understanding of the world that would fix everything if only we all conformed to your views of what's acceptable.
It's ok. You're 19. In another 10 years, you'll look back and be able to say, "Wow, I'm glad I grew from that arrogant son-of-a-bitch into a real thinking person." It's a common teenage trait. Ask your parents. If they're honest, they'll tell you they thought they knew how the world worked then too.
You can dismiss me because of my age but others who posted earlier say they have the exact same thoughts and they are older than you. Look at any presidential candidate and find one that has not talked about morales or family values. You say that your friends either thought you deserved them because you were a person or thought that no amount of normalcy was going to make it ok. Well apparently I've encountered a broader range of people than you have. Just because I wanted to hear other opinions doesn't mean I need to agree with them. Apparently age has given you a false sense of wisdom but not everyone is going to buy it. I now see that we aren't fighting the same fight.
DiverScience saidAnd according to the tv all mexicans are lazy and all black people are violent.
According to much of the TV right now all liberals are trying to end the country.
The media is, and always will be, sensationalist. They will always report on the priest who died of strangulation while performing sex acts on himself.
There are currently thousands of happy, quite, mainstream gays. They aren't reported on. What makes you think that's going to change just because the drag queens stop showing up to pride and all go back to hide in their closets?
I'm not saying go back in the closet! I'm saying that when you DO get a chance to portray yourself to the rest of the world SEND THE RIGHT MESSAGE!
And how do you propose we do that? Say to the drag queens and leather daddies that they're not permitted to be involved in any public celebrations anymore? That they would not be welcome to march with us in political demonstrations or help us outreach to the members of our community who are in need?
We pride ourselves on being an open and inclusive community that loves and cherishes all colors of the rainbow. You would have us put these people out and confirm to the world that we are nothing but hypocrites.
Selling out our values as a matter of political convenience is far more disgusting than anything society could ever do to us. I would rather forego my right to marry someone I love, and know that we upheld the principles our community values most. If you can't understand that, you really have missed everything that being gay is about.
When I hear gay guys propose things like this, I feel deep shame.
This forum is going around in circles. Maybe agree to disagree and leave it at that. All I know is that I heard the same discussions 20 years ago. The only thing that has changed is that some countries have moved on gay rights through the court system. How gays have portrayed themselves to the straight world has not changed much over the years, except there are more of us that are visible.
Perhaps DrobUA's method will work in some more conservative environments, IDK.
styrgan said The media is, and always will beWe pride ourselves on being an open and inclusive community that loves and cherishes all colors of the rainbow. You would have us put these people out and confirm to the world that we are nothing but hypocrites.
Selling out our values as a matter of political convenience is far more disgusting than anything society could ever do to us. I would rather forego my right to marry someone I love, and know that we upheld the principles our community values most. If you can't understand that, you really have missed everything that being gay is about.
When I hear gay guys propose things like this, I feel deep shame.
See? Here's proof that you can be a young guy and genuinely understand what's at stake here.
DiverScience saidAnd according to the tv all mexicans are lazy and all black people are violent.
According to much of the TV right now all liberals are trying to end the country.
The media is, and always will be, sensationalist. They will always report on the priest who died of strangulation while performing sex acts on himself.
There are currently thousands of happy, quite, mainstream gays. They aren't reported on. What makes you think that's going to change just because the drag queens stop showing up to pride and all go back to hide in their closets?
I'm not saying go back in the closet! I'm saying that when you DO get a chance to portray yourself to the rest of the world SEND THE RIGHT MESSAGE!
And how do you propose we do that? Say to the drag queens and leather daddies that they're not permitted to be involved in any public celebrations anymore? That they would not be welcome to march with us in political demonstrations or help us outreach to the members of our community who are in need?
We pride ourselves on being an open and inclusive community that loves and cherishes all colors of the rainbow. You would have us put these people out and confirm to the world that we are nothing but hypocrites.
Selling out our values as a matter of political convenience is far more disgusting than anything society could ever do to us. I would rather forego my right to marry someone I love, and know that we upheld the principles our community values most. If you can't understand that, you really have missed everything that being gay is about.
When I hear gay guys propose things like this, I feel deep shame.
No I'm saying leave what you do in the bedroom in the bedroom! Is it so hard to understand that the rest of the world doesn't want to see our sexual fetishes? I don't want to see straight people doing it either! What values are you selling? Self respect? That doesn't seem to be an issue. The right to displaying your fetishes in public? If that is what being gay is all about then you are right, I'm not a part of it.
styrgan said The media is, and always will beWe pride ourselves on being an open and inclusive community that loves and cherishes all colors of the rainbow. You would have us put these people out and confirm to the world that we are nothing but hypocrites.
Selling out our values as a matter of political convenience is far more disgusting than anything society could ever do to us. I would rather forego my right to marry someone I love, and know that we upheld the principles our community values most. If you can't understand that, you really have missed everything that being gay is about.
When I hear gay guys propose things like this, I feel deep shame.
See? Here's proof that you can be a young guy and genuinely understand what's at stake here.
You go, Styrgan!
What exactly is at stake? You aren't talking about being treated equally, you are talking about being accepted no matter what. Straight people who display their sexual fetishes to the public are just as unaccepted a gays who do it. If you want to talk about the right to marry that is completely different than the right to prance around in a thong and not be judged. Maybe some people take pride in that but I am not one of them.
You're fighting the fight of the narrow-minded, apologist, conformist who thinks that by mimicking the oppressor we will magically be given our rights. When all it will really buy us is invisibility and the ability of the majority to ignore us.
I've actually read my history, and understood that that's not how it works. I know the enemy, and narrow minds like you are among them.
You complain that we dismiss you because of your age. Well here's a parting thought.
Why don't you just be better? Why don't you just rise above our stereotypes about age and wisdom and experience? Why don't you convince your fellow teenage brethren to stop drinking, partying, having sex, skipping classes, and being lazy ne'er-do-wells, and then we'll think about listening and taking you seriously. Maybe if you all stopped drinking and smoking and actually respected yourselves, we'd listen to you.
Because that's what you're proposing we all do for any of us to be listened to by the majority.
Good luck on your journey. You're going to need it.
DiverScience saidAnd according to the tv all mexicans are lazy and all black people are violent.
According to much of the TV right now all liberals are trying to end the country.
The media is, and always will be, sensationalist. They will always report on the priest who died of strangulation while performing sex acts on himself.
There are currently thousands of happy, quite, mainstream gays. They aren't reported on. What makes you think that's going to change just because the drag queens stop showing up to pride and all go back to hide in their closets?
I'm not saying go back in the closet! I'm saying that when you DO get a chance to portray yourself to the rest of the world SEND THE RIGHT MESSAGE!
And how do you propose we do that? Say to the drag queens and leather daddies that they're not permitted to be involved in any public celebrations anymore? That they would not be welcome to march with us in political demonstrations or help us outreach to the members of our community who are in need?
We pride ourselves on being an open and inclusive community that loves and cherishes all colors of the rainbow. You would have us put these people out and confirm to the world that we are nothing but hypocrites.
Selling out our values as a matter of political convenience is far more disgusting than anything society could ever do to us. I would rather forego my right to marry someone I love, and know that we upheld the principles our community values most. If you can't understand that, you really have missed everything that being gay is about.
When I hear gay guys propose things like this, I feel deep shame.
No I'm saying leave what you do in the bedroom in the bedroom! Is it so hard to understand that the rest of the world doesn't want to see our sexual fetishes? I don't want to see straight people doing it either! What values are you selling? Self respect? That doesn't seem to be an issue. The right to displaying your fetishes in public? If that is what being gay is all about then you are right, I'm not a part of it.
Try not to see the forest for the trees. The values of openness, tolerance, and unconditional acceptance are what we are "selling." People who flaunt it once a year on pride (or every week in a bar) are only a byproduct of that.
You haven't answered my question. I asked you how you would propose we deal with those people? The gay community must have a public face. Are you prepared to just cast them out at every public function?
And be weary of imposing your standards of decency or speech or expression on others. When you do that, you legitimize the standards that others impose on us - the very ones that seek to take away our rights.
No I'm saying leave what you do in the bedroom in the bedroom! Is it so hard to understand that the rest of the world doesn't want to see our sexual fetishes? I don't want to see straight people doing it either! What values are you selling? Self respect? That doesn't seem to be an issue. The right to displaying your fetishes in public? If that is what being gay is all about then you are right, I'm not a part of it.
But the reason WHY those leather daddies are out there walking on a leash is because heteronormative homos such as yourself (and MYSELF when I was younger) were more concerned with appeasing heterosexual society by denying myself the simple pleasure of walking arm in arm with the man I love through a park, admiring the swans and the general beauty that`s out there in the world.
It hurts my heart that you would deny yourself that simple, moral pleasure because it makes some heterosexual people 'uncomfortable'. It hurts my heart even more because instead of leading by example, instead of showing the world how awesome and dysfunctionally normal you are (just like the rest of us)...you hide it. And BY hiding it, you illustrate the point that these 'lewd' people are trying to make - IT IS legal, and ok, to dress up in leather and walk your mate down the street - so why is it NOT ok for YOU to walk down the street holding your lovers hand?
THAT'S how I see pride parades - a garish, overly done-up 'carnival' of all the freaks and wierdos in the world telling me its ok to be me. I don't have to be that if I don't want to (but I can if I WANT to) - ALL I need to be is me.
Caesarea4> We aren't arguing for gay people to have the right to parade in underwear . . .
Sweat> Are your reading the same posts I am? This gets to my point that nobody even knows what rights they're actually advocating.
Yes. Don't overlook what I went on to say, both at the end of that sentence and in the next one:
C4> We aren't arguing for gay people to have the right to parade in underwear - all people already have that right. The argument is that gay people deserve equal rights (which necessarily includes partying in the street as straight people do) and that it makes no sense to withhold those rights from the entire group because of anecdotal allegations of what some individuals in that group do.
DiverScience> We could all be perfect puritans, and it wouldn't change a damned thing.
On this one point, um, no. If we were perfect Puritans... then we wouldn't have sex with other men and then, and only then, would we really and fully be OK.
Indeed, it would change everything. Then we could get married (to a woman) and we could even parade in our underwear....
SurrealLife> Its' a funny thing about gay rights. As soon as a hurdle like gay marriage is jumped, people no longer care about it. You just rarely hear about it anymore in Canada.
Duh. That's because gay people were first allowed into the Canadian military. That rendered your country defenseless and it was then taken over by gay space aliens who were able to then execute the next component of their agenda, gay marriage.
MunchingZombie> I am a poll whore
It's whores like you who give gay people a bad name! Must you drag in your pole everywhere?
No I'm saying leave what you do in the bedroom in the bedroom! Is it so hard to understand that the rest of the world doesn't want to see our sexual fetishes? I don't want to see straight people doing it either! What values are you selling? Self respect? That doesn't seem to be an issue. The right to displaying your fetishes in public? If that is what being gay is all about then you are right, I'm not a part of it.
But the reason WHY those leather daddies are out there walking on a leash is because heteronormative homos such as yourself (and MYSELF when I was younger) were more concerned with appeasing heterosexual society by denying myself the simple pleasure of walking arm in arm with the man I love through a park, admiring the swans and the general beauty that`s out there in the world.
It hurts my heart that you would deny yourself that simple, moral pleasure because it makes some heterosexual people 'uncomfortable'. It hurts my heart even more because instead of leading by example, instead of showing the world how awesome and dysfunctionally normal you are (just like the rest of us)...you hide it. And BY hiding it, you illustrate the point that these 'lewd' people are trying to make - IT IS legal, and ok, to dress up in leather and walk your mate down the street - so why is it NOT ok for YOU to walk down the street holding your lovers hand?
THAT'S how I see pride parades - a garish, overly done-up 'carnival' of all the freaks and wierdos in the world telling me its ok to be me. I don't have to be that if I don't want to (but I can if I WANT to) - ALL I need to be is me.
Nobody is denying them the right to walk arm in arm with the man they love. Why does the community feel the need to display fetishes to public? and I'm not denying myself any pleasure, I just don't feel the need to flaunt it. I know many straight couples that aren't comfortable with pda. I'm not hiding anything. I have told everyone important to me who I am but I don't feel the need to wear a t-shirt because frankly the gay community is not one I would be proud to associate myself with.
You're fighting the fight of the narrow-minded, apologist, conformist who thinks that by mimicking the oppressor we will magically be given our rights. When all it will really buy us is invisibility and the ability of the majority to ignore us.
I've actually read my history, and understood that that's not how it works. I know the enemy, and narrow minds like you are among them.
You complain that we dismiss you because of your age. Well here's a parting thought.
Why don't you just be better? Why don't you just rise above our stereotypes about age and wisdom and experience? Why don't you convince your fellow teenage brethren to stop drinking, partying, having sex, skipping classes, and being lazy ne'er-do-wells, and then we'll think about listening and taking you seriously. Maybe if you all stopped drinking and smoking and actually respected yourselves, we'd listen to you.
Because that's what you're proposing we all do for any of us to be listened to by the majority.
Good luck on your journey. You're going to need it.
First off, your an idiot. Narrow minded is the last thing that would be used to describe me. I think that you feel like people aren't going to like you for who you are so you give them a reason not to. I'm not conforming to anything. This is how I feel. Me acting gay would be more of an act than me acting straight. I'm not telling you to act straight or not to be a "leather daddy" or a "drag queen" but why publicize it? I'm sure there are plenty of straight "leather daddies" but do you see them flaunting it outside the bedroom? No. LEAVE YOUR SEXUAL FANTASIES BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR PARTNER. THE REST OF THE WORLD INCLUDING ME DO NOT WANT TO SEE IT. Is that hard to do? Does sex control that much of your life that it would change who you are as a person if you didn't have it? Because that is the message you are sending about not only you but the rest of us.
As for your analogy about me being better than my age. Well the analogy is terrible and doesn't fit because I don't drink or skip class or party or do any stereo typical teenager things. Good luck trying to get taken seriously in a thong.
DrobUAthe gay community is not one I would be proud to associate myself with.
Dude, this is just internalised homophobia. We've all felt it. It'll eat you up though if you let it.
I'm not homophobic. I just don't want to associate myself with a group of people who are obviously so addicted to sex that they need to flaunt their fantasies in everyday life. I have more self respect than that.
DrobUA said I don't feel the need to wear a t-shirt because frankly the gay community is not one I would be proud to associate myself with.
And now we've finally come down to the crux of the matter.
Come back and discuss this with us again when you like yourself more.
I like myself plenty. You think because we are both gay we are the same but we are obviously not. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving someone of the same sex. It doesn't mean I agree with the rest of the things associated with being part of the community. You think I hate myself when the fact is we just aren't the same.
DrobUAthe gay community is not one I would be proud to associate myself with.
Dude, this is just internalised homophobia. We've all felt it. It'll eat you up though if you let it.
I'm not homophobic. I just don't want to associate myself with a group of people who are obviously so addicted to sex that they need to flaunt their fantasies in everyday life. I have more self respect than that.
Everyone is addicted to sex.
When a straight person gets laid every night, it's called 'marriage.' It is, of course, about the most respectable thing you can possibly do. It means that when you kiss, hold hands and take sex-orientated city breaks you are behaving respectably.
When gay people do that, they are 'flaunting their fantasies.'
DrobUA said I'm not homophobic. I just don't want to associate myself with a group of people who are obviously so addicted to sex that they need to flaunt their fantasies in everyday life.
Hasn't the point been made by now that what you see on a gay pride float doesn't represent anybody's daily life? It's a small segment of the community in carnival mode. And even the people of the floats aren't like that in everyday life -- they have day jobs and responsibilities just as you do. But because they are willing to be seen, willing to be out, they defend the idea that there is a right to be different. Because of them, you and I, students, doctors, lawyers, teachers, and everyone else who would never be seen leading someone on a leash, can live our lives in our own way and have no fear.
DrobUA> Then I asked would [he] feel this way if you were a woman? - no response
This is actually a very good litmus test. As justice must be blind, so should be those who make the rules. For example, if the people who decided that black slavery was a good idea didn't know their own skin color (or it could magically change)... would they have reached the same conclusion?
Let me ask you a similar question. What if you couldn't "pass" as straight and even the blind could pick you out as gay?
DrobUA> I'm saying when you are representing the community represent with some self respect.
Let me put this in different words: "Like it or not, we are all ambassadors from the gay world to the straight world".
There is some truth in that. But the counter truth is that we (or they) are not the only ambassadors. Why then would anyone focus on the "worst" ambassador he could find and ignore the rest? As DiverScience said:
DS> They already happily ignore all the successful gay parents, all the "normal" (read heteronormative) gay people, all the studies that show that kids raised by gay parents do - if anything - BETTER than other kids.
DrobUA> The rest of the world is not going to look for a reason to give you rights. They are going to look for a reason NOT to
If "outrageous" queers didn't exist, one of two things would happen. Those who choose to focus on the worst possible "ambassador" would invent crap (e.g. the "study" which falsely concluded that the average homosexual dies in his 30s) or they would then point to the "normal" gays as being outrageous (see above where a TV station was criticized for covering the gay superbowl amid cries that gay football players [I was one of them] were the "deviant perverts" who threatened their "family values")
They aren't seeking a reason but a rationalization. They'll find one regardless of what we do or don't do. There is no gain in trying to appease such people.
DrobUA> When I was figuring out who I was I didn't even think I was gay because my views on things were so far from what I had seen of the gay community.
Which is an argument for more of "us" to be out than for the "outrageous" types to go back into the closet. (Not saying that everyone has to come out right away or be on the front page of the college newspaper. But just think what a good role model you'd make in a couple years for a confused incoming freshman from the sticks who had never seen a gay person in real life).
Heh. I managed to go through 4 years of college without knowing any out gay people. The first gay guy I met had serious problems - to the point that at times he'd drool. Now that I think about it, he may have suffered from something like MS. That sent me reeling back into the closet for another year (until one day I met these 2 smart, hot, gay guys... but that's a different story).
DrobUAthe gay community is not one I would be proud to associate myself with.
Dude, this is just internalised homophobia. We've all felt it. It'll eat you up though if you let it.
I'm not homophobic. I just don't want to associate myself with a group of people who are obviously so addicted to sex that they need to flaunt their fantasies in everyday life. I have more self respect than that.
Everyone is addicted to sex.
When a straight person gets laid every night, it's called 'marriage.' It is, of course, about the most respectable thing you can possibly do. It means that when you kiss, hold hands and take sex-orientated city breaks you are behaving respectably.
When gay people do that, they are 'flaunting their fantasies.'
Not true at all. When a straight person commits to one other person for the rest of their life, that is marriage. If that straight couple is into leather or bondage you do NOT see them walking like that in the street.
DrobUA said I'm not homophobic. I just don't want to associate myself with a group of people who are obviously so addicted to sex that they need to flaunt their fantasies in everyday life.
Hasn't the point been made by now that what you see on a gay pride float doesn't represent anybody's daily life? It's a small segment of the community in carnival mode. And even the people of the floats aren't like that in everyday life -- they have day jobs and responsibilities just as you do. But because they are willing to be seen, willing to be out, they defend the idea that there is a right to be different. Because of them, you and I, students, doctors, lawyers, teachers, and everyone else who would never be seen leading someone on a leash, can live our lives in our own way and have no fear.
No, I get that that isn't how they act on a day to day basis but that is exactly my point. On the one day they are showing that they are proud of who they are they are displaying it in a way that makes us look as if we are a completely different species when many of us are not. I'm not saying they should be ashamed of these fetishes I'm saying they should be showing the public that they are in love, not in lust.
DrobUANot true at all. When a straight person commits to one other person for the rest of their life, that is marriage. If that straight couple is into leather or bondage you do NOT see them walking like that in the street.
Marriage is the only truly acceptable sexual relationship, you need to get your head round that. That's why gays want to be able to marry.
Couples don't just look at the sights on their honeymoon. They fuck. Alot.
Caesarea4 saidDrobUA> Then I asked would [he] feel this way if you were a woman? - no response
This is actually a very good litmus test. As justice must be blind, so should be those who make the rules. For example, if the people who decided that black slavery was a good idea didn't know their own skin color (or it could magically change)... would they have reached the same conclusions
DrobUA> When I was figuring out who I was I didn't even think I was gay because my views on things were so far from what I had seen of the gay community.
Which is an argument for more of "us" to be out than for the "outrageous" types to go back into the closet. (Not saying that everyone has to come out right away or be on the front page of the college newspaper. But just think what a good role model you'd make in a couple years for a confused incoming freshman from the sticks who had never seen a gay person in real life).
Heh. I managed to go through 4 years of college without knowing any out gay people. The first gay guy I met had serious problems - to the point that at times he'd drool. Now that I think about it, he may have suffered from something like MS. That sent me reeling back into the closet for another year (until one day I met these 2 smart, hot, gay guys... but that's a different story).
I agree with you on many of those points but I'm a little confused on this part.
"Let me ask you a similar question. What if you couldn't "pass" as straight and even the blind could pick you out as gay?"
What was the question there?
As for the end part, yes obviously the ideal situation would be for everyone to come out of the closet but obviously that can't be forced which makes us even more misunderstood. It makes it look like a choice. I think if I had a community that I could relate to it would have been much easier to come out and I think that the reason many people don't come out is because the don't think they would fit in with the rest of the gay community. I know I don't.
DrobUA saidThe basis of our country is morales and family values.
Actually the basis of this country is FREEDOM and Liberty and fairness.
The preambleWe the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
No where is there a mention of "family values" and the framers of the constitution did not seek to frame any kind of religious morality. Morals and family values are vary from person to person and family to family.
DrobUANot true at all. When a straight person commits to one other person for the rest of their life, that is marriage. If that straight couple is into leather or bondage you do NOT see them walking like that in the street.
Marriage is the only truly acceptable sexual relationship, you need to get your head round that. That's why gays want to be able to marry.
Couples don't just look at the sights on their honeymoon. They fuck. Alot.
Well I know for a fact that you don't speak for everyone with that statement as I have gotten many emails that contradict it. You think gays want to be married so they can have sex? Not me. I want to be able to make a commitment to someone and have them taken care of after I die. Not so I can fuck them.
DrobUANot true at all. When a straight person commits to one other person for the rest of their life, that is marriage. If that straight couple is into leather or bondage you do NOT see them walking like that in the street.
Marriage is the only truly acceptable sexual relationship, you need to get your head round that. That's why gays want to be able to marry.
Couples don't just look at the sights on their honeymoon. They fuck. Alot.
Well I know for a fact that you don't speak for everyone with that statement as I have gotten many emails that contradict it. You think gays want to be married so they can have sex? Not me. I want to be able to make a commitment to someone and have them taken care of after I die. Not so I can fuck them.
Gays want to be able to marry so that their sexual relationships are as equally respectable as straight sexual relationships.
You have a 'sex is bad' mind-set. I was brought up with that too. Remember though, straight married couples have no guilt whatsover about sex. None at all.
DrobUA saidThe basis of our country is morales and family values.
Actually the basis of this country is FREEDOM and Liberty and fairness.
The preambleWe the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
No where is there a mention of "family values" and the framers of the constitution did not seek to frame any kind of religious morality. Morals and family values are vary from person to person and family to family.
Look at any presidential candidate. How many hours does each one talk about morales and values? TONS because they need VOTES. Not unlike us.
DrobUA saidI'm not homophobic. I just don't want to associate myself with a group of people who are obviously so addicted to sex that they need to flaunt their fantasies in everyday life. I have more self respect than that.
Why do you seem to paint gays with sex crazed addicts? You keep mentioning what you think "those gays" are all about, where are you getting your statistics?
DrobUANot true at all. When a straight person commits to one other person for the rest of their life, that is marriage. If that straight couple is into leather or bondage you do NOT see them walking like that in the street.
Marriage is the only truly acceptable sexual relationship, you need to get your head round that. That's why gays want to be able to marry.
Couples don't just look at the sights on their honeymoon. They fuck. Alot.
Well I know for a fact that you don't speak for everyone with that statement as I have gotten many emails that contradict it. You think gays want to be married so they can have sex? Not me. I want to be able to make a commitment to someone and have them taken care of after I die. Not so I can fuck them.
Gays want to be able to marry so that their sexual relationships are as equally respectable as straight sexual relationships.
You have a 'sex is bad' mind-set. I was brought up with that too. Remember though, straight married couples have no guilt whatsover about sex. None at all.
Why should you?
I don't have any guilt from having sex. I'm just trying to say that like it or not our right to marry is up to the voters. Unless we can reach them on a level they can understand it is never going to happen.
DrobUA saidI'm not homophobic. I just don't want to associate myself with a group of people who are obviously so addicted to sex that they need to flaunt their fantasies in everyday life. I have more self respect than that.
Why do you seem to paint gays with sex crazed addicts? You keep mentioning what you think "those gays" are all about, where are you getting your statistics?
I have no statistics. I never said a certain percentage of gays were like that. I think that if sex is a big enough part of your life to display it as some sort of pride than yes, there is a problem.
DrobUA saidI'm not saying they should be ashamed of these fetishes I'm saying they should be showing the public that they are in love, not in lust.
But we are in lust. Everyone is in lust. When we love we lust. You can't separate the two. The hetero world makes days where lust can be aired publicly. Obviously, it is alright for them to do because they have all the civil rights they could want. We homos, however, should not be treated equally because we do not yet have civil equality?
There is nothing gross or indecent about my lust. It isn't dirty or shameful. For years the hetero world said that all same-sex attraction was dirty and shameful; equating our dirty lust with our degenerate love. Love and lust are indelibly linked when it comes to sexual morality. If you think the hetero world would permit one without the other you are sadly mistaken.
DrobUAI'm not saying they should be ashamed of these fetishes I'm saying they should be showing the public that they are in love, not in lust
And do you think this display of heterosexual lust should be kept away from public view? Dude, I think you've got a double standard.
I don't think he is going to 'commit to her for life'.
James bond isn't trying to get the right to marry, nor is he representing a misunderstood group of people.
You claimed that when gay people do what Bond is doing it's a 'fetish'... oh and that it should be hidden away in case straight people have a problem with it.
Well you can think all you want but it doesn't make it true. Do I have sex with random strangers? No. Do I have sex with people who I am not in a relationship with? No. I must be "old fashioned" but I thought sex was supposed to be more than just physical. Apparently not many gays get that.
DrobUA said>Look at any presidential candidate. How many hours does each one talk about morales and values? TONS because they need VOTES. Not unlike us.
Like I have said, family values is a recent invention and certainly not what the country was founded on. Even the current use of the word varies. The current President also has spoken for gay and civil rights, abortion and a whole host of things the a lot of the family values crowd does not approve of -- just proves what I said morals and family values depends on who you ask. It only came into political use in 1992 coined by Dan Quayle - Not exactly the founding of the country.
DrobUAI'm not saying they should be ashamed of these fetishes I'm saying they should be showing the public that they are in love, not in lust
And do you think this display of heterosexual lust should be kept away from public view? Dude, I think you've got a double standard.
I don't think he is going to 'commit to her for life'.
James bond isn't trying to get the right to marry, nor is he representing a misunderstood group of people.
You claimed that when gay people do what Bond is doing it's a 'fetish'... oh and that it should be hidden away in case straight people have a problem with it.
Double standard.
I see no fetish taking place and once again, he isn't displaying this as some sort of pride. It's hollywood. Do I think gay sex should be taken out of movies like brokeback mountain or milk? No. You need to compare apples to apples if you are going to have a double standard debate.
DrobUA said>Look at any presidential candidate. How many hours does each one talk about morales and values? TONS because they need VOTES. Not unlike us.
Like I have said, family values is a recent invention and certainly not what the country was founded on. Even the current use of the word varies. The current President also has spoken for gay and civil rights, abortion and a whole host of things the a lot of the family values crowd does not approve of -- just proves what I said morals and family values depends on who you ask. It only came into political use in 1992 coined by Dan Quayle - Not exactly the founding of the country.
Well I was born in 1990 so I guess it is all I've known. It may not be what the country was founded on but it plays a big part of our countries "mainstream" veiws.
DrobUA saidI have no statistics. I never said a certain percentage of gays were like that. I think that if sex is a big enough part of your life to display it as some sort of pride than yes, there is a problem.
But you apparently have a big enough gripe that you think it is so widespread that you have to tell them all not to be sex-crazed? You seem to think that the whole world sees the gay people like this .. where are your statistics on that?
DrobUAI must be "old fashioned" but I thought sex was supposed to be more than just physical. Apparently not many gays get that..
See, this is what I said above .. you are painting the majority with a broad negative brush. I think you are projecting your ideas on a whole lot of people with nothing but a limited experience and "I have been thinking long and hard" In my time being out (about your lifespan) the majority of gays to want something more than just sex. As a matter of fact, I would say that gays guys and straight guys are about the same .. they get horny and want sex, but they also want something more when it is all said and done.
The problem with your thinking is that is is based on mere circumstantial evidence of people you don't like, and very little understanding of where gays have been or what they have been through over the past 2000 years .. hell not even the past 50 years.
DrobUA saidWell I was born in 1990 so I guess it is all I've known. It may not be what the country was founded on but it plays a big part of our countries "mainstream" views.
You do realize that the majority of the country just voted down those former mainstream views right? BTW, to say that the politicians spoke TONS on family values is an exaggeration .. the winner spoke mostly on the economy, failed policies, and families in the context of "are you able to support your family" .. the "American Dream" etc. There was NOT really any "do you go to church every sunday, and do you have only monogamous sex?" ALSO the "family values" president just left office with some of the lowest approval ratings .. apparently his "family values" did not help him in the court of public opinion.
DrobUAI must be "old fashioned" but I thought sex was supposed to be more than just physical. Apparently not many gays get that.
Well it's clear James Bond doesn't get it either. Or the millions of people that pay to see films in which he has sex which is 'just physical.' Of course it's fine for Bond to shag hundreds and hundreds of women he doesn't love... because he's straight.
Sex can either be 'just physical' like in Bond, or based round love, like in Brokeback Mountain. What's important is that sexuality shouldn't be hidden away just because it's gay sexuality.
Let's get back to core issues instead of the razzle-dazzle. Drob and his cohorts seem content to ignore arguments that aren't particularly helpful to their cause.
(1) The idea that less outrageous pushes for gay rights have already been tried and have failed - as first referenced by Caesarea on this thread I think.
(2) That the negative aspects of a minority group's culture have a minimal impact on its search for political rights - as referenced by the analogy to contemporary black culture.
(3) The reality that the gay rights movement has always been a struggle for sexual freedom and tolerance, and that the antithesis of these values are the basis of the opposition to equal rights for the LGBT community. By promoting their own position and arguing for "normality" in our community, they are actually supporting the religious right.
(4) They still have not indicated by what means we would keep the more outrageous members of our community out of the public eye, as articulating such a policy would be virtually impossible.
DrobUA saidI have no statistics. I never said a certain percentage of gays were like that. I think that if sex is a big enough part of your life to display it as some sort of pride than yes, there is a problem.
But you apparently have a big enough gripe that you think it is so widespread that you have to tell them all not to be sex-crazed? You seem to think that the whole world sees the gay people like this .. where are your statistics on that?
I don't have statistics. I am only going off of what I and others around me have seen. That is why I think that i give a good insight as to what a lot of the mainstream publics sees. My lack of experience in the "gay world" is what is driving this argument. The majority of the public is going to have the same naive views on what the gay community is about as I do. Most of you still don't understand that I am not trying to criticize or put down the gay community. I'm trying to show you what outsiders see and the assumptions they make. If I offended you I'm sorry, it was not my intention but don't you see that if someone who is gay know this little about the gay community, how well informed do you think the average voter is going to be?
You do realize that the majority of the country just voted down those former mainstream views right? BTW, to say that the politicians spoke TONS on family values is an exaggeration .. the winner spoke mostly on the economy, failed policies, and families in the context of "are you able to support your family" .. the "American Dream" etc. There was NOT really any "do you go to church every sunday, and do you have only monogamous sex?" ALSO the "family values" president just left office with some of the lowest approval ratings .. apparently his "family values" did not help him in the court of public opinion.
Racism hasn't been a mainstream view for quite a while and remember the president before Bush. Clinton was impeached for lying about having an affair with another woman. If that wasn't driven by the morales of mainstream society than I don't know what is.
DrobUA said Clinton was impeached for lying about having an affair with another woman. If that wasn't driven by the morales of mainstream society than I don't know what is.
Then apparently you DON'T know "what is." Clinton's impeachment wasn't about morals, it was a partisan vendetta conducted by the same Republicans you seek to appease. It may interest you to know that while the impeachment was going on, Clinton's approval ratings in the country were between 60-70%.
In other words, this idea you have of what the mainstream thinks wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. There is a large country outside of your small Bible belt town.
DrobUA saidI don't have statistics. I am only going off of what I and others around me have seen. That is why I think that i give a good insight as to what a lot of the mainstream publics sees. My lack of experience in the "gay world" is what is driving this argument. The majority of the public is going to have the same naive views on what the gay community is about as I do. Most of you still don't understand that I am not trying to criticize or put down the gay community. I'm trying to show you what outsiders see and the assumptions they make.
Well having considerable life experience as so many gay men have .. do you think they have not thought the way you have before? do you think we were born in a gay parade? Some us of have lived when you could be conked on the head and thrown in jail just for who you associated with ... and it had nothing to do with being overtly sexual. Thats what many here have said. For us it is not a concern about criticism (from a few people) at all. And like I said, I don't think the majority of people think we are sex crazed as you are saying or else the majority of Americans (75%) would not think it is OK for gays to serve in the military. You seem to assume a lot of what "the most" of people think but I indeed think your age and lack of experience and research is keeping you from making informed statements. Here is the thing the solution to your worries about what other people think is not telling other people what NOT to do, but to be your own self and make friends of all sorts of people like your non-gay friends. See you already know this. And if some of them say .. "those gays are all sex crazed" you can say, "not really, I am Gay and I am not like that" hopefully (and this is the issue you SEEM to have) you can also say " .. and I don't think most gay people are like that .. they really just want the same things straight people want"
DrobUA saidIf I offended you I'm sorry, it was not my intention but don't you see that if someone who is gay know this little about the gay community, how well informed do you think the average voter is going to be?.
I am not offended, but some of the things you have said are offensive, because several times you have made those "most of" statements that stereo-typed people who are no different than you .. As far as the average voter, I pointed to a few things above, probably a lot of them (straights) think in terms of Will and Grace or Ellen and yes some stereo types too. But despite the gay parades, most people (according to polls) think gays should have rights and not be discriminated against even if they do have that sticking point of marriage .. then again .. here in California, if it were up to the younger crowd, polls showed that prop 8 would have been soundly rejected. For that matter it was very close to being defeated. The numbers are getting better as more people become familiar with what gays are really like. All that said, don't spread the stereotype by agreeing with people that hate you. Do you understand what I am saying?
DrobUA saidRacism hasn't been a mainstream view for quite a while and remember the president before Bush. Clinton was impeached for lying about having an affair with another woman. If that wasn't driven by the morales of mainstream society than I don't know what is.
I am not sure what you meant by that first part of the statement, but to reiterate that I don't think you really understand what mainstream morality is .. even though Clinton had the sex scandal and all he left with an approval rating of about 60%, Bush left with an approval rating of just below 30% So where do you think peoples morality is (even with regard to sex) given those numbers? What do you really think people care about?
BTW, I hope you don't think I am angry and offended (can't make promises about other people) but I would hope you will understand the things I am telling you for all of our good .. chances are in a decade or sooner .. you will able to marry the guy of your dreams if you want, you will be able to work without the threat of being fired for being gay, be able to serve in the military openly, etc .. ALL because of the continued work of ALL gay people. Just don't shoot the horse that is going to get you there If you don't get discouraged or too negative, your view will change .. I know this for a fact.
DrobUA said Clinton was impeached for lying about having an affair with another woman. If that wasn't driven by the morales of mainstream society than I don't know what is.
Then apparently you DON'T know "what is." Clinton's impeachment wasn't about morals, it was a partisan vendetta conducted by the same Republicans you seek to appease. It may interest you to know that while the impeachment was going on, Clinton's approval ratings in the country were between 60-70%.
In other words, this idea you have of what the mainstream thinks wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. There is a large country outside of your small Bible belt town.
My god you are dense. The case was pushed forward by the public to make an example out of him. His approval ratings were high despite his impeachment because during his term the economy boomed. I have a very good idea of what the mainstream thinks and the little "bible bent" town I'm from has the 4th highest population in the US.
DrobUA saidThe case was pushed forward by the public to make an example out of him. His approval ratings were high despite his impeachment because during his term the economy boomed.
It was not the public that was hounding Clinton .. it was Ken Starr (who is now hounding gays here in CA ) and some nasty Conservative hypocrites like Bob Barr. Nevertheless what you said lastly proves that Americans are more concerned about Money and the Economy than some kind of religious version of "morality" or "family values" .. think about it. See what I wrote above about polls.
DrobUA said My god you are dense. The case was pushed forward by the public to make an example out of him. His approval ratings were high despite his impeachment because during his term the economy boomed. I have a very good idea of what the mainstream thinks and the little "bible bent" town I'm from has the 4th highest population in the US.
Can't manage without insults, eh? Okay.
Here's the real deal: 1. You know vastly less than you think you do. 2. You are not nearly as smart as you'd like to think. 3. Your understanding of politics is at a kindergarten level. 4. Your understanding of people is warped by your own tragedies. 5. Your tragedies have left you with a reservoir of anger. 6. You evince an almost total lack of empathy for everyone, 7. Most particularly, anyone who doesn't see eye-to-eye with you. 8. You are arrogant, and 9. You are as wrong about this as you can be, which leads to 10. Your judgement is terrible.
DrobUA> the ideal situation would be for everyone to come out of the closet but obviously that can't be forced which makes us even more misunderstood.
The other half of my point, though, is just because we can't have everyone come out the alternative isn't to force some back into the closet.
C4> What if you couldn't "pass" as straight and even the blind could pick you out as gay?"
DrobUA> What was the question there?
I admit there was a little bit of a fishing expedition on my part (sorry). But the thought was to expand from just looking at pride rallies (one day a year) to day-to-day life. Why stop at taking "fetishes" off the street? That guy with the lisp and the limp wrist, the nose ring and the purple colored hair... I'm guessing that they hurt our cause because Americans in the heartland see them and jump to the conclusion that queers are a bunch of sick wierdos...?
Should we also ask those people to tone it down or get back in the closet? And what if they are straight?! Would that make their daily parade ok - even if it still hurts our cause?
DrobUA> Look at any presidential candidate. How many hours does each one talk about morales and values? TONS because they need VOTES. Not unlike us.
Good point, except the people you are trying to appease won't vote for us regardless. Politicians fight over the "independents" and those close to the middle ground.
Lost> Gays want to be able to marry so that their sexual relationships are as equally respectable as straight sexual relationships.
Disagree with you on this one. We want to get married so that our relationships - per se - are recognized. Not so they respect what I did in bed last night (be it snoring or something less boring).
Styrgan> Let's get back to core issues....
I think the divide in this discussion is something else.
There is a pragmatic PR or Marketing Campaign approach. How to better present (and thus "sell") ourselves.
And a philosophical approach about rights*. That we shouldn't have to "sell-out" to get them.
* I'd add that the philosophical side also believes it is pragmatic because the other side isn't going to buy.
Now kids....play nice. You don't want the Forum Police to report you. You don't have the right to be mean. You will make some people very upset.
And DrobUA - you'll be banging your head against the wall with this lot. In the future if you have ANY questions about ANYTHING in the world. You just come right back to this thread and ask. Because they know EVERYTHING there is to know about ALL aspects of Gay life. Haven't you noticed yet? LOL! Cheers, Keith
JPRichva- Technically, Clinton WAS impeached for lying under oath. Same as Scooter Libby was. Both lied while under oath which should be a serious offense, no matter what side of the political spectrum. I am not sure why you down play that, but, like Nixon, lying under oath is a serious offense. I prefer that my elected officials do not lie under oath, or lie at anytime for that matter. I also prefer that my President does not use young interns for his own sexual gratification. But maybe that is just me and a different argument. I am not a big fan of people saying they support legislation to keep bosses from sexually abusing subordinates and then doing the same, but maybe that is another argument at another time.
Change comes from people being honest and themselves and allowing others to see that maybe they were wrong in their assumptions. About gays, blacks, Jews, whatever. The more bigots you meet and, by one on one contact, you change their beliefs about those that are different, you slowly change the world.
No bigot changes because he sees a float. Conversely, no bigot changes because he hears that gays play rugby. They change because they meet you. They see a person. They see a person behind the label. They see that the stereotype does not fit. It doesn't always work. Some will see you as an aberation to what gays are. So be it.
I never ask for equal rights. I demand them. The Constitution gives them to me. I do not beg. If I do not have them, then damn if I will not support the best lawyers to get them for me. But, it always starts with the people closest to you. Family, friends, co-workers. Change your own world. Get them to support you. Get them to be your defenders and advocates. Make sure they do not vote against you like Prop. 8. Make sure that they know what you are fighting. Educate.
Here's the real deal: 1. You know vastly less than you think you do. 2. You are not nearly as smart as you'd like to think. 3. Your understanding of politics is at a kindergarten level. 4. Your understanding of people is warped by your own tragedies. 5. Your tragedies have left you with a reservoir of anger. 6. You evince an almost total lack of empathy for everyone, 7. Most particularly, anyone who doesn't see eye-to-eye with you. 8. You are arrogant, and 9. You are as wrong about this as you can be, which leads to 10. Your judgement is terrible.
Triggerman saidJPRichva- Technically, Clinton WAS impeached for lying under oath. Same as Scooter Libby was. Both lied while under oath which should be a serious offense, no matter what side of the political spectrum. I am not sure why you down play that, but, like Nixon, lying under oath is a serious offense. I prefer that my elected officials do not lie under oath, or lie at anytime for that matter. I also prefer that my President does not use young interns for his own sexual gratification. But maybe that is just me and a different argument. I am not a big fan of people saying they support legislation to keep bosses from sexually abusing subordinates and then doing the same, but maybe that is another argument at another time.
Change comes from people being honest and themselves and allowing others to see that maybe they were wrong in their assumptions. About gays, blacks, Jews, whatever. The more bigots you meet and, by one on one contact, you change their beliefs about those that are different, you slowly change the world.
No bigot changes because he sees a float. Conversely, no bigot changes because he hears that gays play rugby. They change because they meet you. They see a person. They see a person behind the label. They see that the stereotype does not fit. It doesn't always work. Some will see you as an aberation to what gays are. So be it.
I never ask for equal rights. I demand them. The Constitution gives them to me. I do not beg. If I do not have them, then damn if I will not support the best lawyers to get them for me. But, it always starts with the people closest to you. Family, friends, co-workers. Change your own world. Get them to support you. Get them to be your defenders and advocates. Make sure they do not vote against you like Prop. 8. Make sure that they know what you are fighting. Educate.
JW
You don't want your politicians to lie? Thats like asking water not to be wet.
As for your last paragraph, finally wisdom along with age.
Musclequest saidNow kids....play nice. You don't want the Forum Police to report you. You don't have the right to be mean. You will make some people very upset.
And DrobUA - you'll be banging your head against the wall with this lot. In the future if you have ANY questions about ANYTHING in the world. You just come right back to this thread and ask. Because they know EVERYTHING there is to know about ALL aspects of Gay life. Haven't you noticed yet? LOL! Cheers, Keith
Perfect! So I have a question.. that pretty blonde in the picture with me, the one who I was attacked for "pretending to be straight" with, anyways I got drunk and she took advantage of me.. does that mean I'm kicked out of this little club?
DrobUA saidPerfect! So I have a question.. that pretty blonde in the picture with me, the one who I was attacked for "pretending to be straight" with, anyways I got drunk and she took advantage of me.. does that mean I'm kicked out of this little club?
It's not like that hasn't happened to some of us also .. but what were you just saying?
DrobUA saidWell you can think all you want but it doesn't make it true. Do I have sex with random strangers? No. Do I have sex with people who I am not in a relationship with? No. I must be "old fashioned" but I thought sex was supposed to be more than just physical. Apparently not many gays get that.
I found something that may help clarify for you what the majority of Americans really think .. from a conservative gay website at that!
Encouraging Poll On Gay Rights Judging by the latest Gallup poll, it appears that gay rights are making some headway among Americans. Every year that goes by more and more seem to be leaning towards acceptance, which should not be confused with moral approval. Bear in mind that this poll has a margin of error of 3% but let’s take a look:
I. Whether gays should be allowed to serve openly, maintain the current DADT policy or return to pre-DADT policies of discharging all gays:
1. Serve openly: 46% 2. Serve under DADT: 36% 3. Discharge all gays: 15%
The first gained 5% since 2000, while the second and third each lost 2% during that time. See also part VII which tends to cloud these results IMO.
II. Whether homosexual relations should be legal or not:
1. Legal: 59% 2. Illegal: 37%
That’s a significant change since the question was asked in 1977 when both sides were evenly split at 43% each.
III. Equal rights “in terms of job opportunities” for gays (think some version ENDA):
1. Yes: 89% 2. No: 8% 3. Depends: 1%
Again, a significant change since 1977. The first has gained 33% since then while the second lost 25%.
IV. Whether a homosexuality is something one is born with, due to environment, both or something else.
A dramatic change in public opinion since 1977 on the first two at least. The first has gained 29%, the second has lost 21%, the third has lost 3% and the fourth has lost only 1%.
V. Whether same-sex marriages should be recognized in law on par with opposite gender marriages:
1. Yes: 46% 2. No: 53%
We have a ways to go on this one, but since 1996 the “yes” side has gained 19% while the “no” crowd has lost 15%.
VI. Constitutional marriage banning same-sex marriage:
1. Favor: 50% 2. Oppose: 47%
Virtually the same since 2003. It is notable that neither side meets the 2/3’s approval by Congress standard nor the 3/4’s ratification by the States standard required under Article V of the US Constitution for amendment.
VII. Whether gays should be be allowed to serve in the military:
1. Should: 76% 2. Should not: 22%
A significant difference from 1992 when 52% believed they should while 37% disagreed. Given the first part of this polling data, however, these results should be taken with a grain of salt.
The trend would seems to be heading towards repeal of DADT and full integration of gays within society which I find encouraging.
DrobUA saidPerfect! So I have a question.. that pretty blonde in the picture with me, the one who I was attacked for "pretending to be straight" with, anyways I got drunk and she took advantage of me.. does that mean I'm kicked out of this little club?
It's not like that hasn't happened to some of us also .. but what were you just saying?
DrobUA saidWell you can think all you want but it doesn't make it true. Do I have sex with random strangers? No. Do I have sex with people who I am not in a relationship with? No. I must be "old fashioned" but I thought sex was supposed to be more than just physical. Apparently not many gays get that.
Well I dated her for three months so technically I'm in the clear.
DrobUA saidPerfect! So I have a question.. that pretty blonde in the picture with me, the one who I was attacked for "pretending to be straight" with, anyways I got drunk and she took advantage of me.. does that mean I'm kicked out of this little club?
It's not like that hasn't happened to some of us also .. but what were you just saying?
DrobUA saidWell you can think all you want but it doesn't make it true. Do I have sex with random strangers? No. Do I have sex with people who I am not in a relationship with? No. I must be "old fashioned" but I thought sex was supposed to be more than just physical. Apparently not many gays get that.
Well I dated her for three months so technically I'm in the clear.
You need to clear that with your family values and morality people .. I don't think it will fly .. ever hear of abstinence? Drunken sex is not exactly a "family value"
DrobUA saidOk I have another one.. I've never had sex with a man.. Does that mean I'm straight?
DrobUA saidPerfect! So I have a question.. that pretty blonde in the picture with me, the one who I was attacked for "pretending to be straight" with, anyways I got drunk and she took advantage of me.. does that mean I'm kicked out of this little club?
It's not like that hasn't happened to some of us also .. but what were you just saying?
DrobUA saidWell you can think all you want but it doesn't make it true. Do I have sex with random strangers? No. Do I have sex with people who I am not in a relationship with? No. I must be "old fashioned" but I thought sex was supposed to be more than just physical. Apparently not many gays get that.
Well I dated her for three months so technically I'm in the clear.
You need to clear that with your family values and morality people .. I don't think it will fly .. ever hear of abstinence? Drunken sex is not exactly a "family value"
DrobUA saidOk I have another one.. I've never had sex with a man.. Does that mean I'm straight?
It means you are confused.
haha ok well I actually wasn't drunk. I don't even drink, but I didn't want to get "breeder bashed". I dated her for three months and we did have sex. yea, I've heard of abstinence.. never really bought it. I'm don't think I'm confused.. I took a blood test, said I was gay. Those tests don't lie.
You don't want your politicians to lie? Thats like asking water not to be wet.
As for your last paragraph, finally wisdom along with age.
Finally? Don't push it, kid. Finally wisdom comes with age? You are walking a fine line. That is so close to being an insult but I will assume it is not.
DrobUA saidhaha ok well I actually wasn't drunk. I don't even drink, but I didn't want to get "breeder bashed". I dated her for three months and we did have sex. yea, I've heard of abstinence.. never really bought it. I'm don't think I'm confused.. I took a blood test, said I was gay. Those tests don't lie.
You are just digging a deeper hole. Besides if you "don't think you are confused" you are by definition confused because you don't know what you are thinking. Ironically, if you did the sex thing just to fit in, you are acting like your earlier definition of those sex crazed gays Do 'em 3 months and then dump 'em
Also I hope your realize that a good number of guys here have been married even. Some of the closet cases are even still married and cheating on their wives
DrobUA saidhaha ok well I actually wasn't drunk. I don't even drink, but I didn't want to get "breeder bashed". I dated her for three months and we did have sex. yea, I've heard of abstinence.. never really bought it. I'm don't think I'm confused.. I took a blood test, said I was gay. Those tests don't lie.
You are just digging a deeper hole. Besides if you "don't think you are confused" you are by definition confused because you don't know what you are thinking. Ironically, if you did the sex thing just to fit in, you are acting like your earlier definition of those sex crazed gays Do 'em 3 months and then dump 'em
Also I hope your realize that a good number of guys here have been married even. Some of the closet cases are even still married and cheating on their wives
I didn't do it to fit in. The relationship started after I "came out" so she knew I was at least bi. I did it because I cared about her and she wanted to. Definitely not a hit and run. The sex crazed guys I was referring to before are guys that will message me (who they have never spoken to in their life) and ask if I want to fuck or even offer money. I was told to take it as a compliment but I see it as more of an insult. If I offered a girl money for sex I would get slapped in my face.
DrobUA said The sex crazed guys I was referring to before are guys that will message me (who they have never spoken to in their life) and ask if I want to fuck or even offer money. I was told to take it as a compliment but I see it as more of an insult.
Oh relax. I'm sure once they get to know you better, they'll stop wanting sex altogether.
DrobUA saidI didn't do it to fit in. The relationship started after I "came out" so she knew I was at least bi. I did it because I cared about her and she wanted to. Definitely not a hit and run. The sex crazed guys I was referring to before are guys that will message me (who they have never spoken to in their life) and ask if I want to fuck or even offer money. I was told to take it as a compliment but I see it as more of an insult. If I offered a girl money for sex I would get slapped in my face.
Your story keeps changing [ahem]
DrobUA saidThey see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? .... Take a higher road. ... Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
I don't think you are gaining the respect of the Moral Majority
DrobUA saidI didn't do it to fit in. The relationship started after I "came out" so she knew I was at least bi. I did it because I cared about her and she wanted to. Definitely not a hit and run. The sex crazed guys I was referring to before are guys that will message me (who they have never spoken to in their life) and ask if I want to fuck or even offer money. I was told to take it as a compliment but I see it as more of an insult. If I offered a girl money for sex I would get slapped in my face.
Your story keeps changing [ahem]
DrobUA saidThey see us as immature, irresponsible, sex-driven, perverts who don't contribute to the rest of society. Instead of validating them why not try and be better? .... Take a higher road. ... Sometimes in order to gain respect, you need to earn it.
I don't think you are gaining the respect of the Moral Majority
I think that most people don't have a problem with two people who are in a relationship having sex. In fact most would say that is normal. The sex we were having wasn't flaunted to the public what-so-ever (unless you count me telling you about it now). Yes my story changed an I already told you why. I had gotten yelled at earlier for "acting straight" so I didn't want to admit that I was willingly having sex with a women.
DrobUA saidI think that most people don't have a problem with two people who are in a relationship having sex. In fact most would say that is normal. The sex we were having wasn't flaunted to the public what-so-ever (unless you count me telling you about it now). Yes my story changed an I already told you why. I had gotten yelled at earlier for "acting straight" so I didn't want to admit that I was willingly having sex with a women.
Oh brother, I feel like I am lecturing my niece who is a little older than you about sex. I am going to bed.
Caesararea4Disagree with you on this one. We want to get married so that our relationships - per se - are recognized. Not so they respect what I did in bed last night (be it snoring or something less boring).
I think this is probably right. It's primarily a matter of equaltiy
I do think we lose sight of the fact that marriage is a sexual relationship though. And when straight people have sex inside marriage - everyone pats them on the back as an upstanding member of the community. Look, Sarah's been at it at least four times, but it's OK, it was sanctified by God.
Wait, is that Tel-Aviv in the background?
DrobUAI think that most people don't have a problem with two people who are in a relationship having sex. In fact most would say that is normal.
The Pope (and there's over 1.18 billion catholics) recently said homosexuality could lead to the destruction of the human race.
And this coming from a man who wears dresses in public.
It would be fine if he wasn't so flamboyant about it.
ActiveandFitIt was not the public that was hounding Clinton .. it was Ken Starr (who is now hounding gays here in CA ) and some nasty Conservative hypocrites like Bob Barr. Nevertheless what you said lastly proves that Americans are more concerned about Money and the Economy than some kind of religious version of "morality" or "family values" .. think about it. See what I wrote above about polls.
One thing I've learnt posting on this site is that America is an incredibly diverse place and that attitudes are very very different in New York to say.... Arizona.
This is quite interesting for me because in Britain everyone is lumped together into a much smaller space, so the big divisions are class based rather than geographic.
Like I always say, "if I am not on this site, it is boring circle-jerk site. I bring some spark to it. Otherwise, it is I love Obama, yadadadadada. Jpriva stills lives in the '80's he still loves Billl Clinton.Wishes the world was 1994 when he was King.. Everyone else is either loving the Bill years or hoping that Obama is the next JFK, which he will never be. Obama is a great orator, barely, but no JFK or RFK. He is a passible. He is mediocre at best. And there will be a big let down.
Triggerman saidLike I always say, "if I am not on this site, it is boring circle-jerk site. I bring some spark to it. Otherwise, it is I love Obama, yadadadadada. Jpriva stills lives in the '80's he still loves Billl Clinton.
Yet another silly pronouncement of yours. I never liked Clinton--he was way too conservative. Basically a Republican in Democrat clothing.
I don't know whether I'd say this site is boring when you're not here, but the average level of intelligence certainly rises when you leave.
DrobUA: I just wanted you to know that I made a mistake and crossed a line, and that I am sorry. I patently disagree with you and your outlook on things, but obviously we have had very different experiences.
RuggerATX saidDrobUA: I just wanted you to know that I made a mistake and crossed a line, and that I am sorry. I patently disagree with you and your outlook on things, but obviously we have had very different experiences.
I apologize as well. Its a heated topic so it is understandable. I guess some of my views are driven by frustration rather than experience.
DrobUA said I never said drag queens shouldn't be able to express their sexuality freely. I have no problem what so ever with drag queens. I guess it depends on what you mean by expressing freely. I never make any kind of sexual expressions in public. I'm not fighting for the right to express my sexuality in public. I want the right to marry and be treated as an equal. In order to get that I think we need to stop focussing on people accepting how we express our sexuality and start focussing on the fact that we want the same things they want. To fall in love and be committed to one person for the rest of our lives.
For one, this is an awfully simplistic view of "what [other-- presumably straight-- people] want." Not all straight people want to commit to one person for life. But it may be kind of informative; if you think straight people are that homogeneous, it would explain the devaluation of gay peoples' diversity.
More to the point, though, it sounds like you're labouring under the assumption that hardcore, dedicated opponents to the "rights" you do care about (ie. equal access to marriage, maybe non-discrimination in employment & housing, 'respectable, legit stuff like that) are opposing them because of what they see on display at Pride parades. When in fact, it's more like you said earlier: Pride exuberance may be reinforcing their biased stereotypes. But it's not creating them. The people who hate us and want to keep us down don't need the parades to justify their attitudes.
With or without our parades, they're going to justify their bias to themselves. Even if they never see one, they're going to feel the same visceral, ignorant disgust just thinking about us and imagining the "unnatural" things we do in private. And that will persist until they're brought to an acceptance (warts and speedos and drag queens and all) of us as people. Not because we alter our behaviour or start conforming to earn their approval (which will be beyond reach anyway as long as they reduce us to our sex acts and remain predisposed against those acts)-- but because we're human beings. Sometimes we (if we're being humanists rather than shirking morality off onto the supernatural) have to decide that there is a right side and a wrong side-- the one advancing justice and civilization, and the other undermining it. And to the question of "are gay people human beings entitled to the same dignity and freedoms and fair treatment by their government as straight people," those who would hesitate or dissemble or qualify their answer or outright say 'no' are on the wrong side. If we know that their excuses and their justifications don't matter, then the choice is theirs to change their minds or to stay on the wrong side; we shouldn't lower our expectations of what's right because they find it 'hard' to overcome their squeamishness or their superstitious thinking and accept us as their fellow human beings.
So the parades are moot. We might as well conduct them as we like, because no amount of 'toning down' or 'cleaning up' will mollify the people who hate us and refuse to acknowledge our equal humanity whether they catch 5 minutes of the festivities on CNN or not. Don't bother trying to placate them if they're implacable. As long as their prejudice is irrational, you can't rationally try to outwit it with strategic marketing. Our options are: continue being ourselves (diverse as we may be) and help them awaken to a fair, accepting position, or continue being ourselves and try to outlast their backwards thinking as their numbers shrink with every generation.
And after all that I feel like I've taken the scenic route to say what Dr. Seuss says much more succinctly on a poster on my bathroom wall: "be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
Caesarea4 saidSo is this when we all kiss and makeup? *GROUP HUG*
samerphx saidHell no... not with you. grossssss.
Yet another petty and immature personal attack from Samer. Unable to make a credible political argument, he is relegated to lashing out this way.
lol Yes that was immature personal attack. What about that political thread you posted when you call me many bad names? You insulting me first. So no.. I don't want to give you a hug.
that kinda hits me a lil.
Sly way of attacking the family again.
