A Question About Muscle Improvement for the Overweight

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 27, 2009 4:26 AM GMT
    Hi,

    I am new to the whole fitness thing. I am overweight, 6'1 and 195 lbs. I have been following The Abs Diet.

    I have been eating like it says, regular portions six times a day. I also workout 4 times a week, starting off with cardio, then weight training.

    Typical Days Meal for me:

    Breakfast - Oatmeal with a little honey
    Workout
    Snack - Protein Shake
    Lunch - Turkey Sandwich with Cheese on Whole Grain Bread. Progresso soup.
    Snack - Egg Whites
    Dinner - Steak, Green Beans, Bread with I Cant Believe Its Not Butter
    Snack - Shredded Wheat Cereal with Skim Milk

    I also take one or two ECA stacks during the day

    What I am worried about is that this will make me gain fat and muscle.

    Does this kind of diet work if you are overweight? Will I gain muscle and lose fat? Or will I gain muscle and fat?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 27, 2009 5:37 AM GMT
    the more important thing is the calories, how many calories are you eating a day? how many calories do you need a day?

    you need to work out your BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate)


    for a guy its.. erm (I'm using imperial for you)
    BMR = 66 + (6.23 x W) + (12.7 x H) - (6.8 x A)

    w = weight in pounds
    h = height in inches
    a = age

    although its not exactly accurate but it doesn't need to be, you also need to work out how activity level

    Sedentary = BMR X 1.2 (no much exercise to none)
    Lightly active = BMR X 1.375 (ya do some stuff, get up and move about a bit)
    Mod. active = BMR X 1.55 (you like the gym, play some sports.. like being up and about)
    Very active = BMR X 1.725 (Gym is your home, WTF is life without sports, What? Sit still??)

    and you got your BMR or there abouts again not hugely accurate it doesn't take into account a really built guy or a really over weight guy... but its a good starting point and it'll be helpful..

    Once you have worked out your BMR aim to drop about 500 calories either through eating less OR workout and eat less OR working out
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 27, 2009 5:55 AM GMT
    That's about 2,700 calories a day!

    Thank you very much, I really appreciate this.
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    Mar 27, 2009 6:16 AM GMT
    know you know that, you gotta work out how many calories your eating.. then you'll know if your eating right
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    Mar 27, 2009 6:56 AM GMT
    You need to cut all processed carbs and processed sugar from your diet. That is bread,chips, crackers, chips, cereal, pasta cake. soft drinks.and so called "juice" and sports drinks.( mostly sugar. ) You can eat everything else and as much as you want. Meat, veggies, berries, nuts, oils, fruits.salad
    .( chesse too..its an exception to the rules)

    Starvation type diets cause your body to lower its metabolism in order to retain its weight. A cave man type, primitive food, diet will bring you to a natural lean weight by stepping up your metabolism to burn your unnecessary body fat. Weight train to stimulate muscles that burn fat. Cardio training as you may know is basically a waste of time.
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    Mar 27, 2009 7:18 AM GMT
    Alpha13 saidCardio training as you may know is basically a waste of time.
    What? since when? how on earth can you possibly say that? cardio is an important aspect of being fit and healthy and if you really want to lift weights with intensity being able to move oxygen to your muscles is important.

    Do Cardio, its an effective calorie burner, it increases your fitness levels, helps in releasing endorphins when you work hard at it and numerous other benefits..

    Everything food wise in moderation, choose complex carbs over simple ones when possible, try to eat foods that contain more whole foods.. but eat within your calorie constraints as much as possible and make sure to eat carbs, fats and proteins
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    Mar 27, 2009 12:27 PM GMT
    this is not good. If you are overweight the sequence for training is:

    get your nutrition right and use cardio to lose weight

    then get conditioned. when you have got a normal BMI and waist hip ration, start to build muscle.
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    Mar 27, 2009 1:19 PM GMT
    if you look at the guys stats hes an inch shorter then I am, weights less then I do, hes not morbidly obese, he may be caring a little extra weight around but nothing that will preclude him from lifting weights, he may have to modify things depending on how he carries the extra fat but I don't think baring any oddity he'd need too, hell I see guys who are 5'9ish with a keg or two doing the same stuff I do... mind you they don't do cardio.. nor I think even know what a calorie is (but they are muscular where you can tell)

    A calorie controlled diet, cardio and weights should see him through fat loss and muscle gain..

    To the OP, its generally considered easier to focus on one goal at a time, either muscle gain or fat loss, however, it is doable to both gain muscle and lose fat with a careful diet of clean foods, cardio and weights, it will require being diligent in your all your choices and dedication to see it through.. but you can do it.. arm your self with knowledge, read more then the articles here, they are good, but not enough.. google will bring up many options, look for body building diets, workout plans and so on, I recommend looking for body building sites because they tend to be filled with the most articles or at least the ones I've found more useful for learning about this sort of stuff..
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    Mar 27, 2009 1:37 PM GMT
    lilTanker said
    Alpha13 saidCardio training as you may know is basically a waste of time.
    What? since when? how on earth can you possibly say that? cardio is an important aspect of being fit and healthy and if you really want to lift weights with intensity being able to move oxygen to your muscles is important.


    What I think he´s saying is not that we need to work our heart but that the set piece, half-an-hour-on-the-treadmill called "Cardio" is not worth much. And I agree. I have not done "Cardio" at all, but do lots of cardio. I do most of my work outs as super sets and circuits which works my heart really hard, I walk to the gym (20 minutes each way). I do some HIIT when I need to get rid of extra weight fast, but I find it too draining to do regularly.

    We just had a mini flame over this

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/460283/

    I started off not understanding what we being said, but ended up in agreement. But it´s a paradigm breaker so think on it (I used to be a triathlete...) BTW ALpha is over 50.... and looks better than me. Genetics to an extent, but.. at least think it over.
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    Mar 28, 2009 12:09 AM GMT
    Okay, this doesn't get seen very often so feel special. This is what I have to work with, to clear some things up:



    bhni86.jpg
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    Mar 28, 2009 6:39 AM GMT
    Lostboy saidWhat I think he´s saying is not that we need to work our heart but that the set piece, half-an-hour-on-the-treadmill called "Cardio" is not worth much. And I agree. I have not done "Cardio" at all, but do lots of cardio. I do most of my work outs as super sets and circuits which works my heart really hard, I walk to the gym (20 minutes each way). I do some HIIT when I need to get rid of extra weight fast, but I find it too draining to do regularly.

    We just had a mini flame over this

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/460283/

    I started off not understanding what we being said, but ended up in agreement. But it´s a paradigm breaker so think on it (I used to be a triathlete...) BTW ALpha is over 50.... and looks better than me. Genetics to an extent, but.. at least think it over.

    Alpha's age isn't going to mean I agree with his philosophy to health and fitness, to state that simple because he followed that diet and he looks like that so we should all do it is daft, its but a small piece of a very complex puzzle..

    Neither did I state for the guy to get on the treadmill half an hour, in fact, I never do, a treadmill to me is like trying have a meaningful conversation with an ant.. I hate the things.. if you find HIIT (High intensity interval training) effective for you.. so be it.. although I find the "too draining" part funny... I do HIIT on a regular basis and I find it incredibly energising.. not only that but I can remember when I first started working out at the gym, I couldn't do then what i do now, had i tried, I think I would have died and I didn't make the massive improvements I did from lifting weights alone.

    I'm not dismissing weights, I love lifting them and am doing it actively to increase muscle mass... I'm not pumping up cardio as something its not, they both have there place.. they are both useful, they both lead to an increase in a healthy body and mind.

    If what Alpha does works for him, great, but it wont work for everyone, Shelby is "new to the whole fitness thing" which means although I'm sure he gets through a day fine, might find some of the things we do on a regular basis in the gym more taxing physically (by that I mean, people who have been working out for an extended period of time).. he needs to increase his general fitness levels in all areas, once hes accomplished that and hes feeling comfortable and confident with what he is doing.. then start experimenting in finding exactly what will work best for him.. and right now.. he doesn't have the experience YET behind him to make a solid decision on what will truly work best for him and none of us know him well enough or his history..

    So yes.. for Shelby, I'd recommend the simple approach.. cardio and weights coupled with healthy eating and dedication to see change in him self.
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    Mar 28, 2009 6:53 AM GMT
    shelbyatmidnight saidOkay, this doesn't get seen very often so feel special. This is what I have to work with, to clear some things up:



    bhni86.jpg

    Like i said, you carry some extra weight, you aren't overly large.. you've some fat to loss.. eat right, do cardio, lift weights..

    Now.. cardio its self.. since your new, whats important is not what cardio your doing, but that you are doing cardio, hell, just a brisk walk every day if thats what will keep you at, ride a bike, jump rope (I personally like jumping rope), swim, go take up a sport, get up and move, just move, only previso you should look out for right now is how hard you working, for most of it if you can't hold a conversation your at the right point..eventually you'll get better..

    For weights, right now, since your new, you don't need a complex workout to put on muscle, you'll see large gains in a relatively short period of time simply because your body isn't used to it, soo, start off simple, a fully body workout three days a week of compound movements is good to start, in the beginning its not that amount of weights you lift, but your form and getting your body used to it.

    do a search for beginners full body workout on google, you'll find many on body building websites, read through them and accompanying information, making sure to pay specific attention to any directions on form they give, its an important thing, you want to avoid injury especially in the beginning, so pay attention to that..

    after about 2 months your body will had adapted to your weight routine, so, you'll need to change it, you can stay with a full body routine and just change the exercises, reps/sets and so on or you could change to perhaps a 2 day slip 4 days a week if you felt up to itand so on and so on, hopefully the two months or so will have given you enough time and encouragement to go and seek out all the information you can to start making decisions on what you feel will be the best things for you to do..

    Google is your friend, take everything with a grain of salt and experiment, don't get trapped into the idea that there is only one way to skin a cat and most of all, do the things that will keep you at it and most importantly, have fun, don't give up, You can do it!
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    Mar 28, 2009 7:44 AM GMT
    shelbyatmidnight saidHi,

    I am new to the whole fitness thing. I am overweight, 6'1 and 195 lbs. I have been following The Abs Diet.

    I have been eating like it says, regular portions six times a day. I also workout 4 times a week, starting off with cardio, then weight training.

    Typical Days Meal for me:

    Breakfast - Oatmeal with a little honey
    Workout
    Snack - Protein Shake
    Lunch - Turkey Sandwich with Cheese on Whole Grain Bread. Progresso soup.
    Snack - Egg Whites
    Dinner - Steak, Green Beans, Bread with I Cant Believe Its Not Butter
    Snack - Shredded Wheat Cereal with Skim Milk

    I also take one or two ECA stacks during the day

    What I am worried about is that this will make me gain fat and muscle.

    Does this kind of diet work if you are overweight? Will I gain muscle and lose fat? Or will I gain muscle and fat?


    You should worry about what the ECA might be doing to your cardiac function.

    First thing to tell yourself: anything worth doing should be worth doing well. I.e., get your profile and pictures in order, and at LEAST make a minimal effort respectful of others willing to help you.

    Without knowing your weight, activity level, look and so on, all the information you provided is very abstract, but, I can tell you're lazy / a minimalist and need to modify your behavior accordingly. Crawl, walk, run. Do your profile. Get your pictures. Measure your food.

    Free advice:
    If you consume more calories than you burn, you'll gain weight, no matter what the diet.
    If you consume fewer calories than you burn, you'll lose weight.

    Make sense? Of course it does. KISS (Keep It Simple Silly)
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    Mar 28, 2009 1:14 PM GMT
    sigh... the "common knowledge" paradigm is so deeply embedded. The info is out there guys, if you´re interested follow it up.

    And on HIIT... if it´s not tiring you then you are probably not doing it hard enough to get the full benefits.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 28, 2009 1:58 PM GMT
    I'm hoping you will ignore Chuckydud. His ability to make a statement about someone he doesn't know regarding something they didn't say is legendary. After reading the title he wasn't going to let this one go.
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    Mar 28, 2009 11:27 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidsigh... the "common knowledge" paradigm is so deeply embedded. The info is out there guys, if you´re interested follow it up.

    And on HIIT... if it´s not tiring you then you are probably not doing it hard enough to get the full benefits.

    one thread wont change my mind.. but don't worry, I'd read plenty of stuff on the subject before the little bitch thread about it...

    it makes me tired... it makes me feel exhausted actually, but I like, it an hour later I'm full of beans.. so yes, I am doing it right thank you..
  • MSUBioNerd

    Posts: 1813

    Mar 29, 2009 12:16 AM GMT
    As a precaution on the BMR formula provided, this simplified version doesn't make a distinction between weight that is fat versus weight that is muscle. Muscle cells burn energy even when at rest; fat exists mostly as deposits within cells (fat people and thin people have similar numbers of fat containing cells, they differ primarily in the size of these depositions) and thus doesn't really carry on metabolic activity. As such, total weight is a fairly coarse metric when determining the calories burned by a person at rest. And, of course, there's a lot of individual variation. For example, the formula gives me a resting value of 1743, and a moderately active lifestyle turns that into 2702. If I eat that few calories, I lose weight; I typically need somewhere around 3200 to stay the same.

    A more accurate way to judge your metabolism is to record everything you eat or drink for a few days, and all of the physical activity that you do in those days that is a normal part of what your life has been like for the past year or so. If your weight has been stable for a while, you're burning as many calories as you're consuming. If you want to lose weight, change your diet and exercise regimen such that you'll combine to consume fewer/burn more calories than you used to. A daily deficit of 500 calories (say, eat 300 fewer and burn 200 more) will let you drop a pound of fat in a week without pushing your body into starvation mode and slowing your metabolism. Further, 500 calories generally isn't terribly difficult to do. You can burn 200 calories with a 2 mile walk, in half an hour or so. And you can eat 300 fewer by dropping, say, two slices of bread and an ounce of cheese.

    At the core, though, be careful about trying to do too much too fast. If you want to eat healthier to be healthier, rather than solely for the weight loss benefit, a good first step is to consciously choose to eat more things that are good for you, rather than focus on a list of forbidden foods. If you eat slowly, you'll find that the mere fact that you've eaten something that's good for you (like, oh, spinach) will make you full more quickly, and you'll end up eating less of something that's not as good for you (like, oh, potato chips) without even thinking about it. Once you've gotten the hang of that, then you can make all the easy substitutions, like 100% whole grain breads instead of one with refined flour, or milk with lower fat percentages, or air popped popcorn instead of fried corn chips. If you're still not happy with those results, then you can try something more restrictive, and it'll be less of a difficult transition to make.
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    Mar 29, 2009 8:58 AM GMT
    holy fuck for a second i thought i had posted this, dude i tried the abs diet. ur not overweight, its a good program but focus more on the quality of food u eat. it just needs some commitment, u should see results in 6-8 weeks.

    that fear of getting fat from eating certain fats is something u need to get outta ur head. Ur nutrionial breakdown should consist of at least 30% fat on a daily basis. i lost 20 lbs on the abs diet and maintained muscle mass, but after going off the abs diet... i still followed the set grocery list and made modifications but that backwards thinking caused my to eat less ... which now im struggling to gain weight (which im told is much harder).

    what i suggest to u is to focus more on maintaining enough energy (eating enough) and get that worry that ur gonna get fat outta ur head. as long as u are active forget carlorie counting. eat right obviously but i had the same fears and now im on the opposite end of the spectrum.
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    Mar 29, 2009 7:40 PM GMT
    Personally, I'm not really sure that you need to have protein shakes as snacks.. north america tends to consume way too much protein as it is, and there's this mentality that we never have enough in our diet, or "I started to go to the gym, therefore I need 300g a day now!" The protein that doesn't get used up by your body will be converted into calories which will get stored.. it doesn't just flush on out (unless you're in a dangerous physical state) so be careful with over-doing it on protein. If that's your typical day, you're probably getting sufficent amounts of protein from the turkey, cheese, bread, egg whites, and steak.

    Portion sizes on cheese can be tricky too. a 30g serving is about the size of the tip of your thumb (from the last knuckle to the nail) and typically 90-130 calories. Unless you're using pre-measured slices where it provides you with the nutritional breakdown per slice, you might be consuming 3-5 servings of cheese in your sandwhich.. which isn't the end of the world, but if you're trying to loose weight, you might need to re-think 600 calories from cheese at lunch time.

    You don't mention anything at all about your liquid consumption consumption.. are you drinking water, juice, pop, energy drinks, etc., all day long? Juice and pop can be anywhere from 250-350 calories.. a bottle of juice may say that it only has 120 calories (per serving) but there are 2.5 servings in a small bottle that people buy and consume rather quickly. You might find that over the course of the day, you're actually consuming 700 fairly empty calories through juice, sports drinks, pop, energy drinks.. and if alcohol comes into the equation, you can add 140 calories per ounce of alcohol that you consume (that's for hard spirits, 90 cal for a glass of wine, 130-160 for beers).

    Another thing worth checking - measure out your cereal with a measuring cup. When I was a teen, I loved my dad's harvest crunch cereal. I used to fill a beer mug with it and milk and have it as an after school snack. one day I decided to read the serving since - 1/3rd of a cup of cereal had something like 180 calories. So I decided to measure out how much I was consuming by using the 1/3rd measuring cup.. to my shock, my afterschool snack was about as bad as a bag of chips - 1200 calories! Cereal is so misleading (I now encourage a lot of my friends who have cereal as their bedtime snack to re-consider.. there tends to be a lot of sugar and calories, even in the "100% organic all natural good for you stuff") Now the only cereal I eat is bran buds.. I find 'em tasty, crunchy, and they're loaded with fiber which is great.

    Other things to consider:
    * How late are you eating at night?
    * Are you getting enough sleep?
    * Are you eating your first meal within the 1st waking hour of your day?

    I would also recommend getting more fruits and veggies into your diet! A banana with breakfast, a salad or mixed veggie platter as a snack (be careful on the dressing/dips) instead of the protein shake.. right now your diet is low on fiber.. Fiber has a ton of great things to offer, including the fact that, due to molecular structure of fiber and fat, they'll bond together and pass out as waste.. 30g a day of fiber should be your minimum target.


  • MikemikeMike

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    Apr 02, 2009 4:00 PM GMT
    shelbyatmidnight saidOkay, this doesn't get seen very often so feel special. This is what I have to work with, to clear some things up:



    bhni86.jpg


    I could get you body mean and ripped in 3-4 months. Do P90-X!!
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    Apr 02, 2009 4:31 PM GMT
    Lostboy said
    lilTanker said
    Alpha13 saidCardio training as you may know is basically a waste of time.
    What? since when? how on earth can you possibly say that? cardio is an important aspect of being fit and healthy and if you really want to lift weights with intensity being able to move oxygen to your muscles is important.


    What I think he´s saying is not that we need to work our heart but that the set piece, half-an-hour-on-the-treadmill called "Cardio" is not worth much. And I agree. I have not done "Cardio" at all, but do lots of cardio. I do most of my work outs as super sets and circuits which works my heart really hard, I walk to the gym (20 minutes each way). I do some HIIT when I need to get rid of extra weight fast, but I find it too draining to do regularly.
    We just had a mini flame over this
    I started off not understanding what we being said, but ended up in agreement. But it´s a paradigm breaker so think on it (I used to be a triathlete...) BTW ALpha is over 50.... and looks better than me. Genetics to an extent, but.. at least think it over.



    What I mean is that "cardio"( running,stationary bike) is not a time efficient way to burn fat. And it is really stupid to spend hours on a bike when you could spend no time,not eating,the deadly unnatural duo ( processed carbs and processed sugar). Being lean is natural for your body. You don't have to work at it if you don't mess up your whole metabolic process with unnatural chemicals. The FDA has come close to banning High Fructose corn syrup several times now ( its a unregulated drug) and a killer.

    Genetics! fuck no.. ....my parents are both obese..so is my brother.

    The food pyramid has brain washed the nation and subsequently obesity and diabetes are epidemic. If you eat as the food pyramid suggests you will be shaped like the food pyramid.

    P.S. I am not a gym rat ..its a very special week when i get into the gym twice a week but you do need to switch body weight from fat to muscle.
    Removing processed carbs and sugar from your diet pulls you out of hiberation mode ( fat building) to fat burning mode. i never feel tired now.
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    Apr 03, 2009 12:22 AM GMT
    I agree with you about removing or reducing processed carbo hydrates, especially things made from that corn syrup shit.. nothing should have to be that processed to eat it.

    But Cardio is an effective calorie burner, lets set this straight, doing cardio does not burn fat, fat isn't broken down fast enough for the body to use in that sort of environment, fat is stored for slow steady release of energy for the body to use.

    Jump on the treadmill and you wont burn fat, BUT, jump on a bike for 30 minutes and say burn a couple of hundred calories, lets put it as an arbitrary number of 200, thats 200 calories you'd have to eat to replace them calories burnt, that means you can either eat them calories or part or not at all, now your body is in deficit, now the body doesn't have enough calories for the day (or I'd prefer to look at it over a week) so the body will slowly start taking energy from other places.. if the OP had a stable weight, did nothing more then jump on a bike daily and ride for 30 minutes and burn 200 calories and didn't eat any more food, he'd lose weight..

    But it doesn't stop there, cardio is one of the MOST effective ways to get your metabolism burning (weights have an effect also.. ) after that bike ride his body will still be in a heightened state and his body will keep burning calories at a higher rate for some time after he actually stops.

    Plus, there is the effect of it does have an improvement on his cardiovascular system, for someone new, that's an important part to work on, sure, yourself and lost might not need to work on your cardiovascular system, but you guys have been at this far far longer then the OP has, a well conditioned cardiovascular system in its natural state is very slow to degrade unlike muscle mass or just outright strength which can happen quickly (although, quicker to respond upon return)

    my point is, I don't recommend he do hours of cardio, 30 minutes, every second day, 3 times a week, every day, what ever, but that he get his heart rate up, his breathing up and hes feeling pushed.. that he clean up his diet which he's been actively doing and I'd agree to a point with Alpha to remove or reduce simple carbs and eat more complex carbs and if he's at all able, maybe start at the gym with a good trainer or, go research on lifting weights preferably for him a full body workout 3 times a week that is created with a beginner in mind so that he can start conditioning his body for more intensive work...