FORUMS > Mental Health Forum Rules

Landmark Forum and the Advanced course.

I personally highly recommend it !


{ Thanks OUTDOORATHLETE }


http://www.landmarkeducation.com/

Please don't do this course. It's nothing more than a money making marketing ploy built on emotional blackmail and brainwashing. I was nearly hooked into this shit and thank God I got out.

Don't believe me? Then please visit:

http://skepdic.com/landmark.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101980316-138763,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmark_Forum

Uh-oh. This is sounding like the can or worms I opened up with my posting on the Human Rights Campaign. Of course, now I'm intrigued. What is Landmark Education? Please elucidate.

Sorry, I mean Landmark Forum. Bad short term memory!

yes, there are detracters like Allister. Read his profile. Consider the source.
To his credit he included the wikipedia page.

Read the wikipedia page, if you have time.

Landmark Education is like compressed psychotherapy.
You can not do it if you are on or have ever been on psychiatric meds.
you spend about a thousand bucks on the two courses I recommended - two long weekends, three 12 hr days each. You are with about a 100 or more people who have also decided it is/was time to do this. From an economic standpoint this is psychotherapy for the least amount of money. It comes to about $15. dollars an hr. If you laid on a couch and talked to a therapist once a week or once a month you would be set back $150. dollars an hr. You do the math. Plus that way takes so much longer and I have heard people say they got more out of Landmark than 10 YRS OF PSYCHOTHERAPY. Plus going to private therapy sessions makes you feel like you are F**ked up. When you do this in a large group you realize everyone is hiding something heartbreaking and ridiculous.
Ridiculous to keep hiding it and very affirming to set it free in a large group.
Landmark starts from the premise that we are all whole and perfect, we just each uniquely set up our own roadblocks.
I can easily imagine psychotherapists disliking Landmark. They are defending prime real estate, other peoples issues - ie. their paychecks.

Direct link: http://www.realjock.com/Alistair_London

Age: 29

City: London

Region: London, City Of

Country: United Kingdom

Status: Monogamous Relationship

Looking for: Friends, Training Buddies, Online Chat, Web Cam

About me:
Sorted, healthy, funny, guy. Not actively looking to hook up but kind of curious to see what's out there.

About the guys I'm looking to meet:
Personality, face, body and mind. If you can score 10/10 on all four then please come my way. Or if you just fancy a chat and wanna be filthy, then that's ok too.


This is Alistair's profile, as of 1-15-07


Enough said?

Dear Peter,

I don't understand how anything on my profile has got any connection to my dislike of the Landmark Forum. If you can let me know the connection then please go ahead and let me know.

I included the wiki link as I think it gives a balanced view of the whole thing but one or two things stick out that certainly struck a chord with my experience of Landmark.

I first came across Landmark 4 years ago when I was working in Sales for a large publishing company. My boss at the time (who I greatly admired and still do) was having a couple or personal problems and was told about Landmark. She went on the course and came back a different person. For the first two weeks it was all she could talk about, how it had cleared her mind, inspired her to do great things, reassert her goals both professionally and personally. This was all good stuff and I was impressed.

She asked me to accompany her to her Graduation ceremony and of course, I said yes. As soon as I got into the room I felt uncomfortable, I was asked to give my name, telephone number and home address (a little strange for a graduation ceremony).

The audience of about 200 people were then given a talk by the “Leader” and one or two graduates gave their testimonials about how they had reached a breakthrough thanks to Landmark. The stories were very harrowing, one girl spoke of how she had forgiven her father for years of sexual abuse and to my utmost surprise the afore mentioned father was then invited to stand up and give his testimonial too. I was thinking, why is this guy not in jail? But apparently all had been forgiven!

After the testimonial we were told that we would be separated into groups for a quick talk…. This was nothing more than a Sales pitch that lasted 2 and half-hours without a break or refreshments. Being an experience Sales Person I new the closing techniques and desire building skills that they were using but no matter how many times I asked what we were getting for the initial payment of £270 all I got were very wishy washy answers. I then said that I did not think I needed what Landmark was offering, I was quite happy with my career (as I still am) and my personal relationships were going great guns (8 year relationship and still going strong). This still was not enough to let me go, “You have problems”, I was told, “You just don’t know what they are yet.”

Come 10.30pm we were aloud to go home and I felt exhausted, emotionally drained and little scared of the power of group hysteria. It reminded my of an evangelical church that another friend had got involved with, where parishioners were constantly fainting from the touch of the “Holy Spirit” and talking in “tongues” which was quite obviously garbage. If you have ever read the story of the Emperors new clothes you’ll know what I mean.

The next day I did a little more research into the Landmark Forum and discovered it’s development from “Est” and it’s very conception being an idea sold by L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology Fame. I also found hundreds of stories from people who have been through the Landmark Education programme and had been urged to turn away from their families and friends (who had worried about them) and moreover these people had been fleeced for every dollar/pound in their pockets. They were also those who took out loans and credit to pay for further Landmark courses. It seemed that once you had completed one course, there was always one more you could do to enhance you experience of personal development. All the while you are pushed to recruit more and more people to Landmark.

To bring the story back to my boss, after attending 4 separate courses and spending over £1000 she started to feel uneasy. Every course finished with a sales pitch for the next level, which would of course cost more money. When she challenged the “Leader” on this point she was immediately shunned and made to feel silly, stupid and not part of the group/team mentality. Her new group of friends had turned on her quicker than you could possibly imagine. What has caused this sudden behaviour? Was it that she flatly refused to pay them more cash and that she was quite happy with her state of affairs? She decided enough was enough and left, despite their many phone calls in the following months asking her to return for the next course she never returned.

The culmination of my research and my colleague’s experience sealed my opinion of Landmark as not being a good thing. But as I said, it’s just my opinion.

I too, would agree that Therapy is not always the answer for those with problems but I also think investing in to a recruitment drive for a multi-million pound company is not going to help you in the Long Term. Especially when the primary philosophy seems to be that you should forget about the past, what’s happened has happened, move on etc… I site the example about the Father sexually abusing his Daughter, this guy should have paid for his crimes and served time in Jail.

I urge anyone who is interested in Landmark to do their research, not only on the Internet (as they have managed to close many of the websites that have criticised them) but also in your local library and newspaper archives.

Alternatively, if you need to feel good about yourself or need a new goal – give the £270 to a worthy cause and volunteer for a charity. Speak to people with real problems by helping at your local Cancer or Aids hospice. Adopt an unwanted animal or simply go on Vacation and indulge yourself in all the wonderful things the world has too offer. I can promise you that you will ultimately find a much better solution than Landmark can ever offer.

Peter, if I have offended you in any way, then I apologise, but I tend not to keep my opinions to myself.

All the best,

Alistair

I’ve always considered the forum to be a positive attribute to any social networking website, such as “Realjock”. Allowing people to give there own opinions on subjects which they wish to discuss. I feel strongly that it should not be about character assignation as displayed.

Trying to humiliate a fellow member, by referring to his profile should only be frowned upon.

Adding to this I know nothing about the landmark forum, but I know who’s opinion I would value more!

Ok for starts, where is the character injury by posting the guy's [Alistair's] profile? This is the way he wants to be known, yes? he posted his profile of his own volition, yes?
Or did someone emotionally blackmail him to describe himself as such? He said himself "what's the point of posting his profile"?
I posted it so he could not change it expo facto.
All I said was "consider the source"&"enough said" if that sends you cowering behind your Mama's skirt or your Daddy's pant leg, crying out "UNFAIR", maybe you should go do Landmark?
I am going to respond to his further slams on Landmark and psychotherapy next.

I attended one weekend session with Landmark about 10 years ago in S.F.--it was helpful.

If Dr. Alistair Freud's prescription for a person's inner subconscious turmoil was all that was needed to fix ourselves
[all people]
we would have been living in a perfect world long ago. ALL advertising/cosmetic surgery/toothpaste/fashion clothing&jewelry/cars,homes,furniture/ vacations, etc. all offer to fix all the insecurities any given person feels about themselves.
Also, I have done lots of volunteer work with people who were "not there" to help others - their own egos cause them to be too hard on themselves or others involved, and thus I have often experienced
major inefficiencies both in volunteer work and in the regular professional work world.
Any person who was sexually, physically,spirtually, verbally/mentally abused as a kid can not fix themselves with outside stuff like vacations, clothes, volunteer work, or regular workaholism, alcoholism, gambling, promiscuous sex, etc.
The person who was abused has to come to terms with what it is they are saying subconsciously about themselves. Like an alcoholic being able to finally say "I am an alcoholic" nothing can change or get better til that point is reached. That is why for that girl who was sexually abused: she was actually able to forgive because although what he [the Father] did was monstrous she discovered her own ability to stop saying whatever mantra she created when it happened. Like "it's my fault" or " I am not enough" or "please don't be mad at me" we created these mantras as children and we are repeating them hundreds of times per day in our subconscious. Only each one of us individually can identify the unique phrase we created for ourselves. The beginning of shedding that most unhelpful inner voice is putting one's finger on it.
I did the two courses I recommended more than a yr ago and I would have paid many times more than the 1000 bucks had I known what I would get out of it. I had no trouble saying no to more offerings - they only badger you if you equivocate in your responses. I will probably take more courses at some point.
I wish I would have done it 20yrs ago. It was so inspiring to see younger people 18 and older figure out their own. It was also amazing to witness folks older than myself find theirs. I totally understand and appreciate why people want to volunteer with Landmark. When someone or something gives you back your life, shows you a cage you put yourself in - most people respond with enormous appreciation.
I can not recommend Landmark highly enough,
like I originally posted. Just do it! Forget about other people's fear mongering.

Here are a just a few of the infinite variety of mantras most people create for themselves as a child between the ages of 2 to 18yrs old,
because of what uniquely happened to them in their childhood, even if one was lucky enough to have a relatively good childhood.

"you can't do/how could you do this to me"
"I am better than you"
"It's not my fault"
"I am weak"
"I am a failure"
"I don't deserve this"
"There is something wrong with me"
"I am not good enough"
"I am bad"
"I am a fraud/faker"
"I am evil"
"I do not exist"
"I will show you"
etc., etc., ad infinitum
you get the picture?
Most humans beings then work triple overtime trying to keep the phrase hidden, by trying like crazy to be the opposite if it's a derogatory one or beat you over the head with theirs if they created a superlative one. That is why most people after doing Landmark recalibrate themselves. Some need to now stand up for themselves while others need to try to be nicer to others: depending on how you were treating others before you became more conscious of yourself.
You can not change the past, you can only take charge of how you are interpreting it now. This is where and how you take back your life from the past.
VERY EMPOWERING - VERY FREEING - Landmark is also called "large group awareness training"
Many corporations pay for whole divisions of their employees to do it because people can work together more effectively afterwards.
LANDMARK ROCKS! I wish everyone could/would do it. I think the percentage of people it does not work/happen for is less than 5%. Meaning those that come away bitter and not recommending it to everyone they know.

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your frank response. As I said in my mesaage personal to you, I'm glad Landmark has worked for you. But as I pointed out, my experience of Landmark has put me off it. It's more to do with the pushy Sales element and the philosphy of "what's done is done" get on with your life. I believe that you should deal with problems and that actions taken have reactions that need to be dealt with accordingly.

You still have not answered my initial question though - What on my profile makes me a bad source of opinion on Landmark?

Yes your right that I wrote it and therefore I'm still wondering what it is you think I should change?

Posting his profile on here does not directly “defame” his character, but what does, is that you have referred to his profile as a poor source of information and therefore have implied his opinion is not worth considering. (but by personally responding in such a way you have added weight to his argument). I thought this would have been obvious?

In your reply to Alistair you had mentioned that “to come to terms with what it is they are saying subconsciously about themselves” is a positive aspect of the course. Do you feel this has worked for yourself?
Does Landmark offer any anger management courses, as I suggest you may wish to investigate this further, as you portray yourself to be an angry and argumentative person.

you two miss the point entirely about the profile, if you are fine with it - then GREAT you know who you are, more power to you, you're flawless and just be yourself! what are you worrying about?
My only point was, is this the guy you want to take advice from, if that answer is yes for some or even most guys here - so be it! Guys can then determine if they want to do Landmark because they trust your profile more than mine - HOORAY for you two ! - what are you two still crying about?
Hey also, to the younger of you, in case you have not yet noticed - email type writing [as opposed to speaking] does not convey tone.
I could be laughing my ass off while writing this [mostly I am]
Angry is your own Rorschach interpretive spin you have put on my writing.

Alistair you can not change what happened in your childhood or any one's childhood. I am glad that the Roman Catholic church is having to pay for their sins against children. I am glad the victims are getting lots of $.
You do know that the majority of people who win the lottery destroy themselves or are bankrupted some years latter. Why do you think that is? Because the $ doesn't change what they are saying about themselves inside.
more examples:

"I am better than this"
"I am helpless"
"I am unworthy"
"I am not here"
"I don't want to do this"
"I am weird"
"I am terrified"
etc., etc.,etc.

I never said we should not seek justice nor does Landmark.
Justice and or Money does not take away that bad inner voice.

Hi Peter,

Polite and frank as always.

I think it's phrases such as:

"cowering behind your Mama's skirt or your Daddy's pant leg"

"what are you two still crying about?"

etc..

that makes you come across as angry, Anyways, I'm quite frankly bored with the whole discussion. I not going to condemn Landmark but as I said in my second post, anyone who considers signing up should do some research b4 commiting.

Hope all is well with you.

Best regards,

Alistair

the comic Sarah Silverman has many funny and disturbing bits. One of her bits involves a woman in her twenties at her grandmother's funeral climbing on top of the open casket while screaming at the cadaver and dragging it out of the casket. Her rage at the dead woman is strangely cathartic for her, is that some of the "justice" you seek?

Alstair, my man!
Do you really think I was angrily taunting you guys? Dude we are all gay or bi on here
[or bi curious] I was laughing as i wrote all that - because we are not on the playground anymore - there is no manhood to prove here
only the ability to laugh at ourselves!
Blacks call each other "Nigga".
We tease each other about proving our manhood! or being top or bottom - obviously to us both positions are beautiful and ah like necessary for us to have a good time together.
Marines [and others] say being a bottom is the tougher guy because he is surrendering even the traditional popular idea of who is in charge.
I love you and your body guard - all men should be so lucky to have a friend like him,
who is willing to jump out there and defend his buddy even if he risks being wrong.

LIGHTEN UP ! you stiff ole Brits!

LAUGH!

A good friend of mine got involved with Landmark - he now works for them as a paid employee. He brings up his 'work' in just about every conversation that I have with him and is constantly trying to get me to attend the classes. Needless to say - we aren't as close as we once were.

From the way he describes the classes, their techniques are remarkably similar to the brainwashing strategies that cults use to indoctrinate their members. They use 'group think' social pressure, circular logic and pure exhaustion (peterstrong mentioned 12 hour meetings for example) as their weapons. I would strongly caution anyone from attending these meetings.

As a side note - just based on the fact that this is a for-profit organization would make me weary. They have a vested interest exploiting their members.

I once got caught up in a similar scam/cult called "impact training." An HR manager where I worked got indoctrinated by them and actually assigned a number of people from the company to attend. It was a similar mix of classic cult-building and brainwashing techniques that always culminated in demands for more money. (Of course the first thing that they demanded was a promise that you would never, ever tell anybody about anything that you experienced.) A lot of people that I met were really harmed by it.

Guys, these are not meetings - these are courses/seminars that you pay your own hard earned $ to attend, which comes to around $15 bucks per hr. If you want to include the 1 hr lunches and 1 hr dinners and multiple 10 min breaks.
If I had known what I was going to get out of these TWO courses - I would have paid $10,000. or more !
yes there are more courses if you want them - all you do is say 'no' if you do not want more. Landmark is no more a cult than any other self help seminar offerings out there,
Tony Robbins, Donald Trump, etc. etc. etc. or anything
you freely participate in, any day of the week.
People who dismiss it as a cult are losing out - just like I did for several years before
actually doing.

I use to work for Anthony Robbins, similar type of information however a complete different delivery system. How I became involved was a relative of mine had become involved, he hounded me for YEARS to attend one of the meetings/sessions/seminars & for years I declined; he made it appear as though it was a cult or something, turned me off! Anyways, there was a point in my life when I needed a HUGE attitude adjustment & I thought "What the hell!" I attended my first Anthony Robbins seminar & MUST say at first I was like "WTF!?!? These people are crazy!" By the end of the first day, I had become one of them. I left that seminar feeling like I had NEVER felt before in my life & I was LOVING it! I scheduled seminar #2 3 months later, ironically I had also come across an ad for a position with the organization, I applied. I left for the 2nd seminar & hands down, the BEST thing ever that has happened to me & upon return of that seminar I ended up retaining the position with the organization.
Now, I realized with my relative that he has an "Addictive" personality so whatever he has his jaw clamped to at the time, is what he eats, breaths & sleeps! I don't have that kind of personality yet I still hold on to some of the ideas & practice SOME of the concepts from Anthony Robbins to this day, however I am realistic about it all, attempt at least. I am not hyping Anthony Robbins at all nor am I knocking Landmark; we had a lot of cross over clients & heard what people saw was the difference, some good some bad.
We all need something to connect to/with and whatever it is keep it within moderation & don't loose sight of yourself & realize that the bottom line is THEIR bottom line regardless how AMAZING the information is!

Tony Robbins?

SERIOUSLY???

XRuggerATX saidTony Robbins?

SERIOUSLY???

Yup! Again, it was what I needed at the time & it worked for where I was at that time in my life. Now, I would approach it COMPLETELY different.

I know a guy who became a hardcore Landmark zealot. He pulled his aggressive recruiting shtick on me, and I made it clear that I had zero interest. I ran into him a few years later, and he made a point of telling me that he was no longer involved with Landmark. The one other Landmark participant I know never became a zealot. She told me she got a lot of value from the courses, but she never went all nutzoid over it.

Well if you can keep a level head about it than anything can be effective. Congrats on staying pracgmatic about it a1972guy.

XRuggerATX saidWell if you can keep a level head about it than anything can be effective. Congrats on staying pracgmatic about it a1972guy.

Thanks Rugger!!!

I am not going to say anything about Landmark, but I will say something as to how in most every serious forum there is a common thread. Someone will enthusiastically bring a topic to the forum - all with good intentions. Then, someone else will voice a different opinion to the original poster and viola, 9 out of 10 times the original poster gets all uptight and pissy.

There is NO one-size fits all. And yes, I bet Landmark has helped many people and then again, a lot more have not been helped by this organization. NOT the point, of my posting, what is my point is that IT IS OK for someone to disagree with you and it is NOT OK to character assassinate them just because they don't agree with you - it smack's of Bush's "if you're not for us, you're against us" mentality.

Accept that not everyone is going to agree with you and don't get like the religious right when you encounter a non-believer. Honestly, ask yourself "what's so wrong about him not agreeing with me"...only when you're perfect yourself do you have the right to judge others.

Instead of doing the typical "NEGATIVE CAMPAIGN ADS", extol on the positive virtues of whatever it is your trying to promote. You are more likely to win me over that way than by slandering and belittling what other's say.

PEACE
daWeatherMan

Well said, DrStorm. And hell, his advice didn't cost 1,000 bucks either. Gotta luv a bargain!

I imagine programs like this generate a lot of zealots too. People who might be in over their head are usually super-defensive. We need only look to our prez for a shining example.

All things in moderation, and consider multiple perspectives guys. Sure, it requires more brain work, but it's far more empowering.

My $0.02...yours may be different.

Dr. Storm,
did you read the whole thread ? Alister's character was not assassinated. I know you said " 9 out of 10 times" but were you implying his character was attacked ?
because not everyone reads the whole thread, for example : did fitnfunmich read it all ?

Every one's 'Rorschach type reactions' abound all around us everywhere everyday,
all over lapping each other !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_inkblot_test

lol

ps. Xrugger, yup exactly - just look at how much cash people give to their churches or televangelists who just tell them
" you are a sinner, and you have to give more $ "
they do not contribute anything positive to the folks they dupe.

Landmark gives many people a new and profound understanding of themselves and LIFE.

pss. Paradox nailed it again, as per usual, if a person is smart - they are turned off by zealots and self-righteousness

Whew...I am on anti-depressants and dont have even think about this.

I went to their home page. It was very interesting. But I always am suspicious of these kinds of "forums." I am afraid that after paying and I get there, it is a lot of hocus-pocus.

I was glad to get another perspective from the links posted by Alistair.

From what I have read about all the "recruiting" that goes on there, it makes me think of Scientology.

But as I said, I dont have worry about it. Whew!

Another data point: I did the Landmark Forum and their Advanced Course several years ago. For me, at the time, there was considerable value in the experience. However I found the continual pressure from leadership to get participants to bring new recruits "into the fold" to be very distasteful; ultimately this led to me disassociating myself from Landmark. In the end I had to request to be put on their "do not call" list in order to get their telephone solicitations to stop!

I say the only support you need is from a personal psychotherapist. The remainder of support for your values and such come in the "group" setting and is easy to find in a search engine.

peterstrongdid you read the whole thread

I always do. I then articulate a well thought out answer, with correct grammar and words that have been spelled correctly.

If you assume I was referring to you as one of the 9/10 people who do character assassinations when there are people who do not agree with you, then you're guilty as charged, however, if you assume that you're one of the 1/10 people who do not do character assassinations, then pal, you have nothing to worry about, now do you?

PEACE

daWEatherMan

Generally speaking, Landmark just reminds me of any pyramid/Ponzi scheme.


That said, having known a couple of people who "did" Landmark, it seemed to me that THEIR 'cure' seemed to come about only in telling OTHERS how much THEY needed to be cured.

Landmark is just a series of exercises - a new one about every half hr - they are all different [ writing, speaking, listening, role playing, etc. etc. ] - because different people need different ways to access what they have subconsciously determined to be their own unique achilles heel, that we have thought we had hidden in our own fort Knox. [ read some or all of the self-imposed mantras, i threw out there earlier in this thread ]
As I said before, landmark is a reminder of how differently we are formed, and how similarly we operate.

yup, Storm I am one of those who thinks content is more important than perfect grammar or spelling - it's a good thing, I am not a grade school grammar teacher, I would feel like I was dying thirty small deaths every day if I was. That's a job for editors, I do not employ one for my RJ posts, sorry.
So Storm are you one of those who are sticklers for perfect writing form and intimidated by those with a looser / freer style of expression ? or do you just feel superior to those inferior folks ?


ps. I wonder if Bush had better grammar - would it have changed the content of his character ?
I wish Bush had done Landmark, if he had maybe we would not have had to endure his sham of a presidency.

Also guys,

Landmark is offered free of charge to POLICE and FIREFIGHTERS.

$ grubbing cult - go figure ?


oh hey, also another funny thing mentioned by Caslon
you are sort of right bro - the founder of Landmark
started in Scientology, he basically created a more easily digestible / short form of their therapeutic model.
They sued him, so he fled the country, awhile back.
Just as Tony Robbins created a simpler reworking of NLP,
they are both sort of like the 'cliff notes' version of each.

ps. Scientology, now there is a money grubbing cult if ever there was one, to try to compete with the catholic church or the new prosperity televangelists

Although I am not a fan personally of all these psycotherapy, self help courses and classes, one only need to look about our society today to see that many aspects of paid, guided introspection is not only commonplace, but in fact has become fashionable among the middle and upper classes. We are all searching it seems for a better 'ME'.

Spending $1000 for a weekend workshop, for lack of a better word, is relatively cheap when compared to a Spa 2 day getaway, or even the still popular colonic cleansings' '2 days to a better you' [ad just ran on cable TV]. If the person footing the bill believes this will help them, well just their faith alone in the process does some good, ie 'placebo effect'.

It may not be your cup of tea, but for many such weekends help many lead a more fulfilling life.

It sounds like it could be a useful activity. Just now, be ready for their pressure to recruit. A polite "I'm sorry. I dont recruit." repeated when necessary....and followed by "please take me off your phone list."

A friend of mine was talking about this course when we all went out to lunch after wallyball yesterday. He told us that he considered it a cult. It cost him a lot of money. I would advise anybody who is considering this, please check out it thoroughly before committing to it.

Ok. That's the last testimonial I need to forget this entirely.

$15 bucks per hr is a lot of money ? So what is $150 bucks per hr for private one to one psychotherapy ?
Also the $1000 bucks is for two weekends!
I will agree that the high pressure sales/recruit part is annoying but most people get excited about things they like and that are helpful to them. Landmark can not reach everyone, such as your friend RSportsguy. { also in case anyone is wondering there are no $ kickbacks or bonuses for any former or current participants to enroll other folks, family, or friends. I can not speak about the employee end of it, I have no knowledge of how that works - I do know Landmark is largely volunteer based, hence the cult image/perception in some minds }

Sure in an ideal world - they would stop the recruit/pressure part and that would also shrink the time it takes to do the course. That's what i would decree if I were King, but unfortunately I am not - in this situation

I have a lot of respect for Peter, but I have to say I have serious qualms about Landmark.

It operates like many such programs. If you remember The Experience, a program for gay people, it goes much the same way. The first one or two workshops are of value to many people. But then, in order to keep the program going, participants are urged not only to keep doing more workshops but to conscript new participants. The Experience basically burned itself out, people got so sick of them. One of my (many) exes and a very close friend turned into fanatics and then, predictably, both crashed and burned.

Landmark Education operates much the same way. The word "brainwashing" is frequently used to describe its tactics, which were described in an "undercover" documentary on French TV. (Landmark ended up closing down its France operation.) I've had the job of "de-programmming" two Landmark graduates. I don't think there's anything especially wrong with the information Landmark communicates, but their methods and lack of psychological training are problematic. (Ditto for the Experience.)

On the other hand, a very good friend is involved in Landmark and so is a former client. They are annoyingly fanatical and I had to tell both to stop trying to conscript me. I think the fanatic devotion and the need to keep taking courses is necessary to retain the "high" people get from the initial workshop. There have been numerous studies in this regard.

I might add that almost 20 years ago, I was editing a magazine and I assigned a story on The Forum because a major employer was requiring employees to participate in the program. The reporter who did the story was continually harassed and we were threatened with a lawsuit. Landmark is notoriously litigious when it is criticized.

I imagine you can find the French documentary online. I saw it a year or two ago and it had English subtitles.

I think Obscene is one of the wisest dudes on this site, and even though I haven't yet read all of his posts to many various threads, I always very much appreciate what he has to say. Even when, on rare occasion, I do not totally agree.

Ditto here.

that said, there is obviously not much to argue with what you posted here, so changing subjects somewhat, but since you are in this overlapping field of psychotherapy. Would you and I not agree that some people are very difficult to "reach" thru any means whatsoever ?

Hi Peter!

Sorry we've never met, nor had the chance to chat. By the way, the ab shots look great!

I can understand you wanting to get in a pitch for Landmark. Some of my friends have been involved in it.

I know why this topic started so hotly (it has since cooled and become a real thread). It's that the thread was introduced with a pitch for a for-profit corporation, with self-interests that may not coincide with the needs/interests of the community here at RealJock.

In your original post, for argument's sake, replace the words "Landmark Forum and the Advanced course" with "Log Cabin Republicans" or "Democrats for Ron Paul" or "Sexual Reorientation Therapy"...all controversial and self-serving subjects/organizations. You'd of course expect to be flamed, right?

This thread became nicer when posters replying to you took the effort to respond to you nicely. I'm glad it cooled you down. Thanks for that. In the future, I really suggest thread topics like "What do you think of Landmark Forum...my experience was good; yours?" rather than shilling.

I would expect the same response from some of the early posters if your thread had been about your (offsite) website and porn DVD sales. It's the same thing to me.

Flame on!

Thanks for the compliment bro and right back at you, but dude Landmark is also very pro-gay ! Your sexual reorientation comparison is not at all apt. As RJ er's we can talk about things we like and things we recommend be they movies, music, vitamin supplements, workout gear, or favorite sporting goods brands.
Some company is going to profit somewhere, such is our capitalist system, yes ?
RJ also is a company looking to turn a profit { as we all hope, so they can stay in business } this is why we tell our friends and acquaintances, who are jocks to come here, yes ?

This is a thread about Landmark and it's relation to mental health. Some others in this thread have had good things to say about Landmark. Some people are also contributing their opinions never having done it themselves, just adding their anecdotes and hearsay, such as yourself.
No problem with that - it is a free country,
as they say !

ps. The Catholic Church is a huge corporation that used to get away with sexually raping and molesting children, and I am positive that Landmark has weekly occurrences of people coming forward about being sexually abused as kids, many for the first time in their lives. Several did in my courses and the leader said he always has several in every group he has ever done. Even if they had to pay a for-profit company to get help, they are all enormously thankful for finally releasing the HIDDEN SHAME.
These are just basic components of effective psychotherapy - people have to talk to someone who will tell them
it was not their fault !


as Thomas Jefferson said
" Sunshine is a great disinfectant. "

peterstrong said
Some people are also contributing their opinions never having done it themselves, just adding their anecdotes and hearsay, such as yourself.

Actually, I mentioned very little about my own experiences with Landmark Forum.
My point was, please don't shill. None of the other posters have it in for you personally, all of them (I'm sure) are happy with your success in Landmark Forum, but me (and I'm sure a few others) are peaved that this thread started with a pitch and not a plea.
Let Landmark Forum do their own marketing. Let them pay for advertising like every other capitalist organization out there who want people to join. If it's capitalism you want, buy an ad. If it's opinion you want, ask the question. Don't confuse the two, please...you seem like a sincere, nice guy.

FYI - I have seen Landmark help literally hundreds of people because I have done three courses with them. That is not hyperbole, I said literally.
I also witnessed a small minority stomp out early and some trash talk it by the end.
As I said before Landmark can not 'reach' everyone - just as I am sure any traditional psychotherapist can tell you, not all people are even 'reachable'.
Some are just extremely resistant no matter what method or approach.

Dude, I am not confused about anything I wrote about here, nor did I feel personally attacked, even though you have twice now accused me of shilling. I am sorry for you that you can not handle genuine enthusiasm, so much so that you feel a need to call it something illegal and false - I am not that thin skinned or wrong.

So by your own parameters/definitions of what is ALLOWED to be recommended to fellow RJ er's by other RJ er's - no products or services are allowed where some company makes a profit somewhere ? So what else is on your list of no no's ? Movies, books, music, sporting goods, camping gear, etc. etc. I thought I already made this point - but guess, not well enough to your mind ?
Do you just never concede ?
No matter what the facts in the conversation/debate are ?

You said exactly nothing of your own experience doing Landmark in your earlier post.

ps. On a proactive note : please try to avoid the silliness of thinking you know what my 'tone' of delivery is in all this - that is one of the most common mistakes made everywhere daily with email and text messages. As I have said before and will say again, when folks engage that gear in their brain, they are simply stating their own Rorschach type
reaction to the given written text.

Just like you did with my initial statement at the start of this thread.

Peter, Peter, Peter...

Shilling is illegal only in limited circumstances. In your circumstance it's just the distasteful kind. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill for a more exhaustive description, and see if this fits you.

And I'm not making parameters, nor am I in charge of the content of this website. I'm explaining to you why posters replying to you were annoyed. Not that you asked, of course.

And, be careful about being the thing that you accuse others of doing...what's it called, hip..., hyp..., hypo... something. It's on the tip of my tonge. I have to stop typing with my tongue.

It all began with your second post, which included:
[quote]yes, there are detracters like Allister. Read his profile. Consider the source.[/quote]

WTF? Then you accused him of personal attacks, and denied your own, saying you were just trying to inform us. What a crock. Nobody's fooled. You said, defending your actions about posting Alistair's profile information:
[quote]is this the guy you want to take advice from[/quote]

WTF? Don't deny the thing you do, right after you do it. That's called...oh god, what's the word?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrite

Now, lest you mistake my tone as angry, or laughing, or whatever...I'll tell you what my tone is. Then, you can decide if that qualifies me as a candidate for Landmark Forums: I'm happy on the outside, but inside I'm weeping.

Now, in closing, you have great abs. You took a great photo of yourself doing a chin-up or something. Let me remember you like that, which is why I'm a member of RealJock.

Dude you should please read the definition of shilling because you are using it wrong.
And you have falsely accused me of doing it.

As for your charge of hypocrite, recheck all your judgement there as well, please.

I can well recognize logic, reason, or hypocrisy [ even my own ] when I see it, read it, or hear it - you are not presenting it

strong saidOk for starts, where is the character injury by posting the guy's [Alistair's] profile? This is the way he wants to be known, yes? he posted his profile of his own volition, yes?
Or did someone emotionally blackmail him to describe himself as such? He said himself "what's the point of posting his profile"?
I posted it so he could not change it expo facto.
All I said was "consider the source"&"enough said" if that sends you cowering behind your Mama's skirt or your Daddy's pant leg, crying out "UNFAIR", maybe you should go do Landmark?

I had my own experience of Landmark many years ago, back when it was still called est. It was filled with shallow, narcissistic people who were there to validate each other's egos and to learn to feel superior to virtually everyone on the planet who hadn't subscribed to their ideas.

I also found them callous and insufferable, and the seminar material laughable.

Just my experience.

Peter

This was not a logic test to see if you can prove a "not", as in, you are NOT a shill.

This was a request: don't shill. Many of us recognize it very well when it happens. Few of us appreciate it. Do not attempt to cloak what you did in the guise of capitalism (as though all capitalism is good), some sort of "movie review", or as some sort of commentary on our mental health (as if you would be an authority on this).

When you get caught, say, "I'm sorry...I should have rephrased myself..." then do some careful rephrasing.

I get that you belong to Landmark Forums. You want others to join in. You perhaps strongly (and maybe rightly) believe that it will help others. But don't kid yourself into thinking that we don't see how this serves your own interests (speaking capitalistically, since we understand how Landmark Forums makes its money). You tread over that line.

To be a true advocate of Landmark Forums, be up front by stating your relationship to them, then tell your experience. Let others discuss and debate the topic. But your own experience is unassailable. You may be shocked to find the unassailable experiences of others do not match your own. That's freekin' life, man, and why we debate such a topic.

If you want Landmark to do well, when you hear of the experiences of others that are not so flattering, do the first right thing and apologize...then, assure them that you'll work to fix those things. That would make Landmark sound like a caring, sensitive organization.

Your approach, and arguments, and "statistics" have turned me off of Landmark.

Now is your turn...make Landmark sound good.

when are you going to use the word 'shill' correctly ?
where, how, and when was i not upfront about my relationship to them ? I consumed their product, a yr or so back now - I really liked it and continue to recommend it. Where is this unfounded 'shill' charge you keep repeating coming from ?

and since when did you start speaking for RJ ?

your anti-capitalist rant is weird and inappropriate, just my opinion obviously - but individual therapist earn their living from charging people $150 or more per hr. Last i checked they do not give their services away for free either.
And I do not represent Landmark by a long shot just as you can not speak for RJ.

Landmark costs around $15 per hr.
It's called "economics of scale" and it is one of the biggest and oldest things that folks of lesser or for that matter, any economic means covet, and thus love to throw stones at as a sort of "sour grapes" mentality.


Dude understand I can not be Landmark for you, just as you are not all of RJ for me.
I am just a guy who feels he got more than his money's worth out of it.

Peter, I'm excited for you that you have found something that has been so helpful, regardless of what it is.

Having said that, starting a forum thread and posting: "Landmark Forum and the Advanced course. Do it soon,
you will wish you had done it years ago! ".....yep, that sounds like shilling or pitching to me.

I agree with Mickey. I would have been a lot more intrigued and a lot more receptive had you posted something interesting about your experience and invited others to share their own, and then debated some of the merits (or lack thereof) of the hard-sell approach with some of the folks here.

You're obviously a self-aware guy BECAUSE you have taken LMF and because you're willing to examine and do the work.

May I suggest that some of us would be more interested and more inclined to consider organization ____ (any org or any program) if the proponent of that organization could share their personal experiences, recognize that it has some public perception issues openly and honestly, not jump into a forum with what basically looks like a blatant advertisement, and then make extremely vague personal attacks on people's credibility rather than debating their points. This is not about Landmark. It's about basic dialogue and engagement with your peers here.

Best of luck with your continued personal development Peter. I mean that. We can all use it (myself included), no matter where it comes from or how we do it.

I applaud you for making that effort and hope that it continues to be useful for you as you work through the courses.

Hey outdoor, you are right - I could have said
"I wished I had done it years ago"
that would have been the truth - I wish, I could have done it at 18.
I also wish it was taught in public schools actually and it would heal a lot of ills in society
if people did it more everyday with each other.

ps. I have not taken one of their courses in over a year now - they will badger if you hesitate when saying 'no'
I did not equivocate.