Six gay men shot to death in Iraq by tribe members ...after a tribal meeting was held and the members decided to go after the victims

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    Apr 06, 2009 1:15 AM GMT
    BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Six gay men were shot dead by members of their tribe in two separate incidents in the past 10 days, an official with Iraq's Interior ministry said.

    In the most recent attack, two men were killed Thursday in Sadr City area of Baghdad after they were disowned by relatives, the official said.

    The shootings came after a tribal meeting was held and the members decided to go after the victims.

    On March 26, four additional men were fatally shot in the same city, the official said, adding that the victims had also been disowned by their relatives.

    The official declined to be identified because he is not authorized to speak to the media.

    Witnesses told CNN that a Sadr City cafe, which was a popular gathering spot for gays, was also set on fire.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/05/gay.deaths.iraq/index.html
  • DCEric

    Posts: 3713

    Apr 06, 2009 2:21 AM GMT
    Mathew Shepard moment for Bagdad?

    /could some good come of this?
    //one can hope.
    ///right?
  • Hunter9

    Posts: 1039

    Apr 06, 2009 2:32 AM GMT
    while Christian extremists are without a doubt a danger in their own right, Islamic extremists may be the most fucked up people on this planet
  • metta

    Posts: 39167

    Apr 06, 2009 2:45 AM GMT
    What can we do to push for international pressure to fight against governments dong this? What would be the most effective direction to go? UN? Congress? The White House? Amnesty International?

    I don't want another friggin dime to go over there if we are not doing something to stop this behavior. Makes me angry!

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    Apr 06, 2009 2:47 AM GMT
    DCEric saidMathew Shepard moment for Bagdad?

    /could some good come of this?
    //one can hope.
    ///right?


    monent? try everyday. what's worse is that this is publically excepted over there. sigh, so much more i want to say on this subject.
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    Apr 06, 2009 2:55 AM GMT
    WWOD?
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    Apr 06, 2009 7:47 AM GMT
    I think it is wrong to impose ideas of Western Cultures on others. We should not tell others how they should live, what their values should be, and how they should live their lives. We are not the world's police and we should not impose our values on other societies. They have their own cultures, their own beliefs and their own laws. People that live under those laws have every right to. We American's, or anyone from Western Culture, have no right to tell others how they should live. They should be free to do what they want. We should not tell them otherwise.
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:06 AM GMT
    Caslon10000 saidBAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Six gay men were shot dead by members of their tribe in two separate incidents in the past 10 days, an official with Iraq's Interior ministry said.

    In the most recent attack, two men were killed Thursday in Sadr City area of Baghdad after they were disowned by relatives, the official said.

    The shootings came after a tribal meeting was held and the members decided to go after the victims.

    On March 26, four additional men were fatally shot in the same city, the official said, adding that the victims had also been disowned by their relatives.

    The official declined to be identified because he is not authorized to speak to the media.

    Witnesses told CNN that a Sadr City cafe, which was a popular gathering spot for gays, was also set on fire.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/05/gay.deaths.iraq/index.html


    This illustrates how very dangerous false belief systems / cults / religions are. I hope that everyone here will take time to view Religulous by Bill Maher. It's common sense about the malarkey of false belief systems. Particulary dangerous are certain religions that view folks in disagreement as needing to be killed. In parochial governments, especially when the majority is above 80% or so, most naysayers are killed for exercising discourse. Religion is, by far and above, the single most dangerous influence to modern civilization. It gets folks to do absolutely crazy things, and to believe in the most silly of stories.

    We're reminded at how religions deal with those who choose discourse by posting like this one. It's malarkey that needs to end.
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:16 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidI think it is wrong to impose ideas of Western Cultures on others. We should not tell others how they should live, what their values should be, and how they should live their lives. We are not the world's police and we should not impose our values on other societies. They have their own cultures, their own beliefs and their own laws. People that live under those laws have every right to. We American's, or anyone from Western Culture, have no right to tell others how they should live. They should be free to do what they want. We should not tell them otherwise.


    You are forgetting one thing in that well-intentioned post--basic human rights and the right to live. That is not a Western value. When violated we should condemn and try to stop it from happening again.

    Side note: We all now if it were six Christians there would be an out-cry in the country!
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:32 AM GMT
    I am sorry. But I supported Bush when he went into other countries and tried to get them to be Jeffersonian Democracies. But, I was told time and time again by my liberal friends that we have no right to tell any other country how to be, what they should do, and how they should be. It was not the place of America to try to change other countries. That imposing OUR values was imperialistic and wrong. That we did not know better and that we were wrong if we tried to tell others how to be. So, what, some of our ideas are good, and some are bad? We should stick our noses in sometimes? I thought we got denounced for trying to tell others how to live? So, when we say do not kill gays, that is OK and not try to tell other countries how to be? OK. So, it is OK for America to tell other countries what to do, sometimes? Are we supposed to leave other countries alone or are we supposed to impose our ideals on them? Which is it? What is it? Do we stop this but leave that alone?
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:37 AM GMT
    Muslims kill gays. They stone women that have been raped. They kill young girls that are the victim of rape.

    That is their culture. We should not impose our ideas upon them. That is Imperialistic. To do anything else is to impose our Western culture. I thought that was wrong. We should not be telling the rest of the world how to live. The is a Bushism. We should not tell others what is right and what is wrong. That is sooo American.
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:39 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidI am sorry. But I supported Bush when he went into other countries and tried to get them to be Jeffersonian Democracies. But, I was told time and time again by my liberal friends that we have no right to tell any other country how to be, what they should do, and how they should be. It was not the place of America to try to change other countries. That imposing OUR values was imperialistic and wrong. That we did not know better and that we were wrong if we tried to tell others how to be. So, what, some of our ideas are good, and some are bad? We should stick our noses in sometimes? I thought we got denounced for trying to tell others how to live? So, when we say do not kill gays, that is OK and not try to tell other countries how to be? OK. So, it is OK for America to tell other countries what to do, sometimes? Are we supposed to leave other countries alone or are we supposed to impose our ideals on them? Which is it? What is it? Do we stop this but leave that alone?


    Well I don't agree with your friends.

    "If the Nazis want to murder 11 million people, why should we stick our nose in their business. The genocide in Darfur... it'snot our place to fix that using our values. Pol Pot. Stalin...let their view be. Why should we try to change them and their countries?"

    That type of thinking is dangerous. Isolationism does not work. When there is mass suffering in a country because of fundamentalistic ideals--all the world should step up and denounce it. Muslims extremists can have their hatred of gays--but gays deserve the right to live their live... as do all people.
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:41 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidMuslims kill gays. They stone women that have been raped. They kill young girls that are the victim of rape.

    That is their culture. We should not impose our ideas upon them. That is Imperialistic. To do anything else is to impose our Western culture. I thought that was wrong. We should not be telling the rest of the world how to live. The is a Bushism. We should not tell others what is right and what is wrong. That is sooo American.


    I don't see that at all... you are basically implying that liberals are the ones who do not want to help those in danger... and the heroic conservatives are trying to help as much as possible. If anything, in my life I have seen the opposite.
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:42 AM GMT
    cjc-

    You are forgetting one thing in that well-intentioned post--basic human rights and the right to live. That is not a Western value. When violated we should condemn and try to stop it from happening again.

    Stop it? AAAAAhhhh, how? Without violating the soveriegnty of any other nation? Exactly how?
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:46 AM GMT
    I never mentioned liberals or conservatives. You did. I never did. I believe we should let ever country do what it wants. To step in would be to impose our values. That is not good. Our values are no better than their values. Isn't that what we have heard for so long?
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:50 AM GMT
    Liberal friends, yes. More liberal than me. But conservative nonetheless.

    I think it is wrong to ever tell another country what it should and should not do.
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:51 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidI never mentioned liberals or conservatives. You did. I never did. I believe we should let ever country do what it wants. To step in would be to impose our values. That is not good. Our values are no better than their values. Isn't that what we have heard for so long?


    Okay.

    So when is it okay TO step in? after millions of people have died? Or when our enemies have been building nuclear weapons? When our enemies make military treaties with our neighbors? Unless you are meaning to be more specific... every foreign war fought should not have been fought by the USA. Would you tolerate Nazi rule over a country... involving the slaughter of millions? or is that their value system... and trying to stop the bloodshed would be imperialistic on the part of the USA?
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    Apr 06, 2009 8:59 AM GMT
    I am just giving you a hard time. I am also showing you the can of worms you open up when you say we should step in and stop this, but butt out on that. Should women be killed if they show their faces in public? Should we step in when this happens? If they show a leg? If a young girl gets killed for being raped should we do something? Like what? Bomb them? Sanction them? What, exactly, are we supposed to do? And where do we draw the line? Pretty soon, we are telling Muslim countries what they can and can't do. Isn't that Western culture telling people what they can and can't do? Imposing our values on them?
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    Apr 06, 2009 9:07 AM GMT
    Hey cjc, I am not the one saying America should never do anything. I am just trying to get on board with the Democrats and some liberals that say we should NOT tell other countries how to live.

    Don't get mad at me. I am just trying to think like Democrats. I am trying to think like someone that says America should not push it's values on everyone. We should not tell Iranians or Iraqis what to do. They are their own countries. Kill gays, kill child rape victims. Those are their rules and values. We should not force OUR values on them. That is American Imperialism. They are their own countries. We need to stop telling them how to live.
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    Apr 06, 2009 9:13 AM GMT
    cjc- you missed my subtlety, which was less than subtle, but you made my point. But you said it, not me.
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    Apr 06, 2009 9:42 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidcjc- you missed my subtlety, which was less than subtle, but you made my point. But you said it, not me.


    I wouldn't bring Democrats into this. I know of PLENTY of conservative who feel the same way... except their views are based around money mostly and nationalism.

    It goes both ways.

    But i'm glad Trigger didn't go off the deep end--I almost have you all figured out ya know icon_smile.gificon_wink.gif
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    Apr 06, 2009 9:50 AM GMT
    I know it won't be popular to write it, but it is how I feel and I believe it to be true.

    The people in the Middle East are completely nuts and their religions and their sects are hateful and violent.

    Despite the problems that we have here in the West, I am happy to be here and not there.

    Let the roast begin!
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    Apr 06, 2009 9:57 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidI think it is wrong to impose ideas of Western Cultures on others. We should not tell others how they should live, what their values should be, and how they should live their lives. We are not the world's police and we should not impose our values on other societies. They have their own cultures, their own beliefs and their own laws. People that live under those laws have every right to. We Americans, or anyone from Western Culture, have no right to tell others how they should live. They should be free to do what they want. We should not tell them otherwise.


    In a perfect world........but so much of what you said, the west are truly guilty of these acts. It's what has made America so hated in other countries, who did not want too embrace all things American.

    The First steep forward would be for America to give the world back it's Sovereignty, and it too stop playing Big brother. How about it Mr president.
  • Echoes6967

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    Apr 06, 2009 10:02 AM GMT
    Triggerman saidI think it is wrong to impose ideas of Western Cultures on others. We should not tell others how they should live, what their values should be, and how they should live their lives. We are not the world's police and we should not impose our values on other societies. They have their own cultures, their own beliefs and their own laws. People that live under those laws have every right to. We American's, or anyone from Western Culture, have no right to tell others how they should live. They should be free to do what they want. We should not tell them otherwise.


    There is a difference between imposing our ideologies and condemning murder .. in no place on THIS planet is murder tolerable and nor should it EVER be.
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    Apr 06, 2009 10:08 AM GMT
    Exactly when do you do not want America playing Big Brother? When the Nazi's take power? When Stalin takes power? When Mussilini takes power? European problems? Not ours.

    Is that when you do or do not want America to interfer? In Bosnia? In Darfur? When do you prefer the EU takes power? When should America take power? Just tell me. We Americans are a bit tired of fighting the European wars. We saved Europe. Twice.

    We went into Iraq and got criticized. Now you want us in Darfur, another soveriegn country. None of our business, like Iraq was non of our business.

    So, tell me, when should America get involved?