Torture by CIA. Is this my America??!

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    Apr 08, 2009 1:19 AM GMT
    http://www.nybooks.com/?

    I don't believe what I'm reading. This sounds like something you would read happening in 3rd world dictatorships!!!!! We Americans are supposed to be better than this.

    Shame, Shame, Shame!!!!!!
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:08 AM GMT
    You might find this interesting .. a veteran called in to Rush Limbaugh and gave him an ear full about torture .. Even though he voted for John McCain he also called Limbaugh out for his anti-Obama rhetoric ..



    Here is the story ..
    http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200904070031?show=1
    http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200904070031?show=1CALLER: Thanks, Rush. Rush, listen, I voted Republican, and I didn't -- really didn't want to see Obama get in office. But, you know, Rush, you're one reason to blame for this election, for the Republicans losing.

    First of all, you kept harping about voting for Hillary. The second big issue is the -- was the torture issue. I'm a veteran. We're not supposed to be torturing these people. This is not Nazi Germany, Red China, or North Korea. There's other ways of interrogating people, and you kept harping about it -- "It's OK," or "It's not really torture." And it was just more than waterboarding. Some of these prisoners were killed under torture.

    And it just -- it was crazy for you to keep going on and on like Levin and Hannity and Hewitt. It's like you're all brainwashed.

    And my last comment is, no matter what Obama does, you will still criticize him because I believe you're brainwashed. You're just -- and I hate to say it -- but I think you're a brainwashed Nazi. Anyone who could believe in torture just has got to be - there's got to be something wrong with them.

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    Apr 08, 2009 4:13 AM GMT
    Report on discord in Obama admin. over release torture memoes:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#30094695
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:15 AM GMT
    How do you think we won WW II?

    Do some research about British/ American intelligence. When the "great generation" said they "fought" for freedom they weren't speaking metaphorically. Hollywood WWII movies are the coverup not the reality....you must believe in the Easter Bunny.
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:15 AM GMT
    What's the surprise? We knew this was happening under Bush...

    It's disgusting and I think everyone involved should be sent away for life - including Bush. They are despicable human beings and should suffer every bit of misery they've placed on the rest of us.
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:15 AM GMT
    Limbaugh and the Republicans will never admit guilt. They are indeed brainwashed as he says, and fundamentally evil in my view.

    I've now begun to refer to Rush Limbaugh and his Republican supporters as the "Lying Limbaughs" in parody of the famed aerial acrobats the "Flying Wallendas" from many decades ago.

    The Republicans have cast their lot with the likes of the Lying Limbaughs; let them perish in Hell with them. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:26 AM GMT
    Look into the russians perfection of the isolation chamber and tell me which you would prefer. Personally I would prefer the stuff that we do. But then again I might be biased because I was talking to a CIA officer for most of the day today, for a recruiting event at my school that I put on.
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:38 AM GMT
    OK, the actions of the past and comparisons to other countries do not make our actions acceptable. We're not uneducated or trying to look for other alternatives. Torture is unsuccessful and barbaric!

    It's time to grow up, folks!
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:48 AM GMT
    Blackguy4you saidI don't believe what I'm reading. This sounds like something you would read happening in 3rd world dictatorships!!!!! We Americans are supposed to be better than this.

    Shame, Shame, Shame!!!!!!

    You are so naive. These actions are what the US Republican Party endorses, what Republican supporters on RJ endorse.

    If the Republican Party endorses it, then it must be OK. After all, they tell us it is. Isn't that good enough?

    Because if it wasn't OK, wouldn't the Republican Party be guilty of war crimes? Of course not, because this is America, and we are always the Good Guys. So whatever we do is just fine.
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:50 AM GMT
    the unfortunate reality is that the CIA has been using torture tactics for decades. this did not start under Bush, it was just legalized and expanded under Bush.... and has, as of yet, still remained to be stricken from law under the Obama administration.

    See: The Military Commissions Act of 2006 - this made torture legal, of both foreign designates but also of US citizens. Once either the President or Secretary of Defense declares any person, in the United States or of foreign citizenship, an "Enemy Combatant" - they are stripped of all human rights and legal protections - and for the US citizens, they are stripped of citizenship, so that politicians who voted for the bill, as in, almost all of them... could say "this does not affect US citizens" - because once it affects you, you are no longer a citizen. These are very clever lawyers writing these things.

    Obama actually voted for this bill as well, and has yet to repeal it. Don't hold your breath.

    Read what Professor of law and political science at Yale, Bruce Ackerman, had to say about the Military Commissions Act:
    http://www.law.yale.edu/news/3531.htm

    Here is a copy of the law, along with Congressional discussion following, with certain Congress members speaking out on what the ramifications of this legislation are:
    http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2006_cr/h092706.html

    Glenn Greenwald, former civil rights litigator and constitutional lawyer, writes on how the law allows for the "legalization of torture and permanent detention":
    http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/09/legalization-of-torture-an_115945829460324274.html

    Bill Goodman, legal director of the Center for Constitutional Rights, writes that the MCA that the definition for "enemy combatant" is so broad that "t could be read to include anyone who has donated money to a charity for orphans in Afghanistan that turns out to have some connection to the Taliban or a person organizing an anti-war protest in Washington, D.C. The second definition could supersede the first entirely, granting the President shockingly wide latitude to declare anyone a UEC [unlawful enemy combatant]"
    http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/hotline/2006/10/challenging-military-commissions-act.php

    But, this should come as no surprise. The US, largely through the CIA, has supported and helped foreign dictators come to power, and has often created, helped manage, and advise these foreign intelligence agencies and secret police services of foreign despots that commit torture. Just take a look at two brief examples among many - the Shah of Iran and the SAVAK police force, as well as Pinochet and his secret police.

    This is simply continuity in empire. Nothing new... and it doesnt look to be leaving anytime soon, either.
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    Apr 08, 2009 4:53 AM GMT
    what was done in the 2nd world war by us, what other countries may have done, or are doing, is immaterial to what we should do now when we have laws against torture, because it was shown before the laws were passed, and is well known now as then, that torture does not, i repeat DOES NOT produce good information. many of our generals have claimed and promoted Obama to sign against torture because they felt strongly that torture caused a lot of increased recruitment into Alquida, and loss of our soldiers lives were increased after word got out that Arab people were being tortured. This was a sick, sick piss poor governance by bush/cheney that led to the Iraq fiasco, their actions promoting torture, then the lies "we do not torture" paved the way for Abu Graib, Blackwater guard atrocities, the torture at Guantonamo, and at the 'black sites' (rendition) There is no excuse for any of this under the laws that we have put in place to avoid such atrocities. We have lost our credibility before the world over it, and what was torn down will take decades to rebuild. Shamefully these idiot republican talking heads are taring down obama's profitable fence mending European trip saying he's weakening our stand in the world, when they and their backing of torture and all the other bad policies, is the express reason why Obama needed to mend fenses. How twisted can their thinking be.
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    Apr 08, 2009 5:05 AM GMT
    Looknrnd saidOK, the actions of the past and comparisons to other countries do not make our actions acceptable. We're not uneducated or trying to look for other alternatives. Torture is unsuccessful and barbaric!

    It's time to grow up, folks!



    That is the type of thinking that gets your entire family, race, country slaughtered. What we think does not matter. What bad guys are willing to do is what matters. My people thought nice, civilized, optimistic thoughts all during the 1920's and 1930's and then they got slaughtered by madman that didn't think civilized thoughts. Thank God the Americans and Brits when equally brutal when they needed to be.

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    Apr 08, 2009 5:08 AM GMT
    Alpha13 said
    Looknrnd saidOK, the actions of the past and comparisons to other countries do not make our actions acceptable. We're not uneducated or trying to look for other alternatives. Torture is unsuccessful and barbaric!

    It's time to grow up, folks!



    That is the type of thinking that gets your entire family, race, country slaughtered. What we think does not matter. What bad guys are willing to do is what matters. My people thought nice, civilized, optimistic thoughts all during the 1920's and 1930's and then they got slaughtered by madman that didn't think civilized thoughts. Thank God the Americans and Brits when equally brutal when they needed to be.



    Let us also keep in mind that the Americans and Brits quietly, although, significantly, built up the Nazi war machine.

    Torture is without excuse.

    What you do abroad always comes home to roost.
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    Apr 08, 2009 6:51 AM GMT
    Looknrnd saidOK, the actions of the past and comparisons to other countries do not make our actions acceptable. We're not uneducated or trying to look for other alternatives. Torture is unsuccessful and barbaric!

    It's time to grow up, folks!


    I will say torture is a sad fact of war.

    But I was born in a free country, at a time when there was no world war. Yet people stood by and did nothing to stop the women who gave birth to me, from torturing me. How women have been so protected from their violent ways, and they promote men are the violent ones, and women are the victoms.icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Apr 08, 2009 7:01 AM GMT
    Alpha13 said
    Looknrnd saidOK, the actions of the past and comparisons to other countries do not make our actions acceptable. We're not uneducated or trying to look for other alternatives. Torture is unsuccessful and barbaric!

    It's time to grow up, folks!



    That is the type of thinking that gets your entire family, race, country slaughtered. What we think does not matter. What bad guys are willing to do is what matters. My people thought nice, civilized, optimistic thoughts all during the 1920's and 1930's and then they got slaughtered by madman that didn't think civilized thoughts. Thank God the Americans and Brits when equally brutal when they needed to be.



    An eye for an eye, indeed. Remember, you have two eyes. There's always another one to lose...

    My line of thinking isn't what gets races slaughtered, my line of thinking is that you cant go around the world helping promote democracy when you cant even maintain it in your own country. My line of thinking says if you want to make a lasting change, you have to change yourself. No one is safe when the most powerful aren't held to a higher standard! NO ONE!

    Brutality begets brutality, and nothing more. Lives can be saved for a time, until those that gave in finally regain their power. Peace is made through education and love...nothing more!
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    Apr 08, 2009 7:06 AM GMT
    But I was born in a free country, at a time when there was no world war. Yet people stood by and did nothing to stop the women who gave birth to me, from torturing me. How women have been so protected from their violent ways, and they promote men are the violent ones, and women are the victoms.

    I'm not sure I get what the person above is saying, and then again I'm not sure I want to get it either.

    As for torture, sure it's been done for a long time, but I've never seen much evidence that it really works -- that is compared to other methods of interrogation. Is torture the only option for getting information, and the best option for getting the most information, and what evidence do those promoting its use have for it for it's overall benefit vs. the negatives that come with torturing people? Well that, and that it's morally wrong. There may be times when you believe the information gained outweighs concerns of national security, but realize that what you condone is still a morally poor choice and be willing to accept that compromise of your morality and the consequences that come with it.
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    Apr 08, 2009 7:18 AM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidI've now begun to refer to Rush Limbaugh and his Republican supporters as the "Lying Limbaughs" in parody of the famed aerial acrobats the "Flying Wallendas" from many decades ago.

    I call him Gush Phlegmball.
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    Apr 08, 2009 9:15 AM GMT
    Torture is unacceptable in my book. If it does save human lives, what is the cost to our moral code in this country? How are we different from Nazi Germany or the Empire of Japan during WWII?

    Other methods need to be found.

    Not to mention I am a firm believer this war on terror will never be won through our military. You can't change ideology with the barrel of a gun--not when terrorists are willing to die for their cause.
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    Apr 08, 2009 9:17 AM GMT
    Hmm torture is a touchy subject in the US....myself, I think that it is not as easy as people make it out to be to "extract" information, nor is it such a goldmine of covert knowledge.

    The cost of such things as rendition flights, detention centers, and the increasing unwillingness of our allies to allow such activities on their soil have made it a very costly thing to do politically and in terms of common sense. Spectacles such as Abu Ghraib and Gitmo have only cheapened US goodwill and efforts.

    I find that the main arguements for it tend to be along the lines of what Neil Livingstone argues in the following article: "There are people out there, and they want to hurt us." Well Duh. It's insulting to the FBI, NSA, CIA and the military to tell them that over and over. That's pretty much the reason for a standing army. It seems that the argument for torture and rendition is implying that the regular forces and institutions are not capable of working within our political or military system.

    The following article is a transcript of a PBS interview with Livingstone and Jack Cloonan, an FBI official. I find his (Cloonan's) viewpoint much more convincing.

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec05/torture_12-02.html


    EDIT: I posted one previously to this, and it never showed up on my screen til i tried reposting it. This is basically the same post as before.
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    Apr 08, 2009 9:17 AM GMT
    Alpha13 said
    Looknrnd saidOK, the actions of the past and comparisons to other countries do not make our actions acceptable. We're not uneducated or trying to look for other alternatives. Torture is unsuccessful and barbaric!

    It's time to grow up, folks!



    That is the type of thinking that gets your entire family, race, country slaughtered. What we think does not matter. What bad guys are willing to do is what matters. My people thought nice, civilized, optimistic thoughts all during the 1920's and 1930's and then they got slaughtered by madman that didn't think civilized thoughts. Thank God the Americans and Brits when equally brutal when they needed to be.



    So then Alpha, is it your belief that we are no different from the very people we are supposed to be fighting against?
  • GQjock

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    Apr 08, 2009 10:43 AM GMT
    We know the Bush administration not only allowed torture but they made up excuses and used the political system to give them permission
    For anyone at this point to say otherwise is laughable
    But whether we say that torture is ok is what we have to answer to right now

    Is it ok for America to torture its criminals
    and then say that we do not torture in the same breath?

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    Apr 08, 2009 12:21 PM GMT
    OK, if you want to undermine a super power, how do you do it?

    If you are a fragmented militant group you will never be able to engage in direct war of any kind, so you have to get the country to destroy itself.

    Spread fear, make the country change it´s moral standards and encourage the curtailing of liberties. Sound familiar? The whole thing is some horrible auto immune disease with the body attacking itself.


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    Apr 08, 2009 1:43 PM GMT
    Torture is about as close to an absolute moral wrong as you can get in my book.

    Anyone who supports torture has failed to think properly about what it actually is, what it does to people and the sort of people that carry it out.
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    Apr 08, 2009 2:02 PM GMT
    HAHA...if u all haven't realized that this hasn't gone on for decades (WAY BEFORE BUSH...not to make excuses for the man!) then your naive!

    Government officials, Political figures, celebrities, police officers, etc......if you have money or legal authority u can do what you when when you want!

    The other day at my employee gym and a police officer made a threat to me cause I told him to mind his own business about something....I went next door to the police station to talk to the chief and they pretty much blew me off!

    Come on people...get with the program!!!
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    Apr 08, 2009 2:14 PM GMT
    The bottom line is we are at war. We are not better than that! The torture of war criminals have been going on since the beginning of time and it will continue. You guys needs to wake up and get rid of the Hollywood version of War. The use of torture will continue and if we don't do it, trust me we will get one of our allies to do it, as we are doing already.

    Gitmo may be closing and those prisoners will just be relocated to a facility where they can be tortured under the watchful eyes of the CIA that's their job.

    The Bush administration just got caught. I'm not saying that the torture of another human being is right what I am saying if you think the that US is out of the torturing of war criminals especially dur war time and Ben Laden still free than you are delusional.

    We are not better than that; we have just been more effective with keeping it secret. Gitmo is not the only facility there are others. Have you noticed that no one has said where they are relocating the prisoners once Gitmo closes. It won't be in Federal prisons.