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I'm always lookin for a new reason to get chew'd out so here we go..
I can't lie about the fact that when I see a profile of someone who is still in the closet past age 25 I immediately judge them. Now I don't try to because there could be extenuating circumstances but I think that after your mid-twenties you should be able to come to terms with your sexuality. By that age most people aren't trying to be in the "cool crowd" so I ask myself why keep lying? I see it as a sign of insecurity. I have yet to hear a good reason. I've heard a lot of "I have to be in the closet because of my job". bullshit. Unless you are the NFL's official prostate examiner then I don't see any job where you're job would be a reason to lie about who you are. I also hear "well I'm bi". Congratulations, so am I.... what's that got to do with being in the closet? If you are married and cheating on your wife you are just as pathetic as a straight guy cheating on his wife. If you really love her you'd grow a sack and tell her who you are. If she loves you she will learn to deal with it. I personally have had a girlfriend since coming out as gay. never used it as an excuse to cheat on her. Man up and tell her. She was happy I told her and it helped establish this crazy thing some relationships have. It's called trust. Sorry I was venting. Ok lets have it. How old is too old to be closeted?

aren't you a sad little thing....

DrobUA saidI'm always lookin for a new reason to get chew'd out so here we go..
I can't lie about the fact that when I see a profile of someone who is still in the closet past age 25 I immediately judge them. Now I don't try to because there could be extenuating circumstances but I think that after your mid-twenties you should be able to come to terms with your sexuality. By that age most people aren't trying to be in the "cool crowd" so I ask myself why keep lying? I see it as a sign of insecurity. I have yet to hear a good reason. I've heard a lot of "I have to be in the closet because of my job". bullshit. Unless you are the NFL's official prostate examiner then I don't see any job where you're job would be a reason to lie about who you are. I also hear "well I'm bi". Congratulations, so am I.... what's that got to do with being in the closet? If you are married and cheating on your wife you are just as pathetic as a straight guy cheating on his wife. If you really love her you'd grow a sack and tell her who you are. If she loves you she will learn to deal with it. I personally have had a girlfriend since coming out as gay. never used it as an excuse to cheat on her. Man up and tell her. She was happy I told her and it helped establish this crazy thing some relationships have. It's called trust. Sorry I was venting. Ok lets have it. How old is too old to be closeted?

85 and older

Everyone should be out of the closet before they turn 27.52 years old


Drob--this is one occasion I disagree with your overall statements.

When I used to work for a photo developing business, I had to be in the closet. The owner made no bones about it, if he found out any, "faggots" worked for him, they were gone. Where I lived at the time there weren't many jobs going around. When I later did children’s photography for a large national company, same thing. Depending on the district. But the state I lived in at the time there was no protection, ( Colorado). My district and territorial manager made a small witch hunt of weeding out any homosexuals in their area. I almost lost my job because my assistant manager tried to out me and HE was gay. He wanted my position. Now I'm a nurse and yes even in the medical field there are hiring and floor managers who have said outright, "no homosexuals will work here." Until there are national laws protecting sexual orientation status, some of us must be in the closet for our jobs. I am fortunate now to be at a hospital where no one really gives a hoot so no I am not currently in the closet on the job. As for my family, I never told them, they just kind of asked and I didn't deny it. I was 24, what business was it of theirs anyway?

This OP reminds me of fuck turds like Perez Hilton who like nothing more than to out closeted gays because they feel it's their responsibility to tell individuals how they should live their lives. It's the polar opposite of right-wing conservative bullshit.

DrobUA, I'm grabbing the popcorn. Your post makes me think you're a masochist. Are you? Get on your knees and suck it, you filthy little bitch! Turned on? I thought as much.

But seriously, it's good to see young bucks such as yourself with this kind of attitude, though it's a bit misguided and unhealthy. I'm sure we'll see fewer closeted gays as more people around the world begin accepting gays in their respective societies, but we're a long way from that.

It simply isn't as easy for them as it is for guys like yourself.

Men and women have their reasons for being closeted, but it's almost always because they fear for their reputation, their well being, the well being of their families, their careers, etc. Note that there are PLENTY of states that allow for their residents to be fired from their jobs for being gay, or arrested for sodomy. True story. Look it up.

It's not a matter of age alone in my opinion. Sometimes the duration of years lived, to number of years in the closet are more important. Like if I had stayed in the closet, since I discovered my sexuality at 13, would be too long. But if I was any older without coming out, than maybe than I'd be really late on coming out and far from doing myself any real justice, other than enjoying the freedom of that long held secret. But if someone is relatively 'happier' because of their closeted lifestyle, than more power to them. It's their lives, not mine. But, I came out within a year of coming to terms with my sexuality; which only took a week, so I don't think I have much experience, insight or advice for those coming out 'late'.

Tapper saidThis OP reminds me of fuck turds like Perez Hilton who like nothing more than to out closeted gays because they feel it's their responsibility to tell individuals how they should live their lives. It's the polar opposite of right-wing conservative bullshit.

DrobUA, I'm grabbing the popcorn. Your post makes me think you're a masochist. Are you? Get on your knees and suck it, you filthy little bitch! Turned on? I thought as much.

But seriously, it's good to see young bucks such as yourself with this kind of attitude, though it's a bit misguided and unhealthy. I'm sure we'll see fewer closeted gays as more people around the world begin accepting gays in their respective societies, but we're a long way from that.

It simply isn't as easy for them as it is for guys like yourself.

Men and women have their reasons for being closeted, but it's almost always because they fear for their reputation, their well being, the well being of their families, their careers, etc. Note that there are PLENTY of states that allow for their residents to be fired from their jobs for being gay, or arrested for sodomy. True story. Look it up.

Drob means well. He just probably needs to hear more stories about those who had to stay in the closet to keep their jobs and/or friends and family.

I certainly wish that everyone would come out. However, it is a different time now DrobUA. It is far easier, although still difficult, to come out today than it was in the 20th century. You have to remember that the way that things are now is NOT the way they were in the past. Incredible strides have been made in the past few years, but do a little youtube searching for how homosexuals were treated in the 1970s and earlier. You can start with Anita Bryant and work backward.

Drob, I think it is entirely up to the person. Why should the person place so much significance in 'coming out'? They may reveal to some like parents and close friends. If you are dealing only with enlightened individuals it is not a problem. But a lot of people remain ignorant.

It is also a cultural thing. Some cultures place more emphasis on sexuality. Others may place less.

Personally, I also feel it is incorrect to say 'I'm gay'. I feel it is more correct to say that I have been 'born with a gay orientation'. The "I" consciousness remains separate from the gayness which appears on it. I guess it depends upon the philosophy you adopt.

I understand where DrobUA is basing his perspective on. When I first came out, I too had an almost militant attitude about being out. It it really one based on a combination of two things, one is a minimal life experience and the other is the idealistic view that makes him believe that his perspective is thorough.
He hasn't experienced any of the following examples (and there are more than these):

A life financially vested and dependent upon a conservative lifestyle and job. One where many people may be dependent on that support.

Large and/or complex involvement in a religious community where coming out would mean the disconnection from virtually everyone you know and interact with on a daily basis.

Live in a community where violent physical attacks against people who are gay is acceptable or even promoted.

I've known men who were part what appeared to be tight, loving and supportive families who were not only disavowed, but beaten and cast to the street simply because they were gay.

The problem really is that the longer someone stays comfortably in the closet the more they may lose when they come out.

While I, for one, will never go back into the closet, I would never presume to say that someone should give up everything in their life to come out.

One last caveat however: If the man in the closet, due to internalized homophobia, or any of the above examples, is using their influence or power to promote homophobia, then they should be forcibly outed. That is not simply hypocrisy, it is intentionally causing harm to others.

No matter what age you are you have to come to terms with your sexuality and truthfulness in your life
Are there people who will be fired or harassed if they come out of the closet?
Yeah, there are
But by and large there are not that many
and most men who stay in the closet are there because of fear
Fear of being who they really are
and these men are denying themselves a very important part of life
to be true to themselves in every way

bgcat57 said
One last caveat however: If the man in the closet, due to internalized homophobia, or any of the above examples, is using their influence or power to promote homophobia, then they should be forcibly outed. That is not simply hypocrisy, it is intentionally causing harm to others.

I agree. Legislators are the ones who are often guilty of this.

Before I read your post I thought 25.

By the time 25 come. I had done many things, and had many experiences.
dew to drought in the early 80s. I left life in a small Mormon community, for the big city. My first job in the city was working for a gay bathhouse, lots of fun, one had a fucking good time

Then AIDS come along, and man the whole thing changed over night. The things I seen and witnessed, during my time working for the gay community. I gave back my gay card. I was no longer a member of the gay community. I was out and gone by 25.

But would I date a 40 year old who was still not out. absolutely not! I could not date a person who had lived a lie for all those years, and was still doing it.

I may well be a pure homosexual, but I'm not gay!

Arguments about outing are quite generational and tend to reveal how poorly we share 'LGBTQ history.'

In an ideal world, every person who is gay or bi or trans would be 'out' in that they would LIVE THEIR TRUTH and BE WHO THEY ARE from that essential place where identity, expression and sexuality meet. Religion and government would not be oppressive forces seeking to control out of fear and misunderstanding. Different would be ok, as opposed to bad, despite how that clashes with the tribe mentality.

I think there are cases that warrant outing: Ted Haggard and his ilk. But most normal people in the world need to go through their journey to their truth. Some people can accept themselves easily, through inner fortitude and luck of the draw when it comes to family. Others are not so lucky.

All that is not to say that we can't help folks along by, say, for example, encouraging the closeted to be brave, creating and offering support systems, not facilitating the closet through things like the m4m section on Craigslist, lol, or whatever way you can engage the world that brings forth positive changes and not more of the same fear and self-loathing.

There really is no age. What the others wrote about society, family, and jobs, I agree with 100 percent. I can only add the personal. I didn't come out until I was 40. I had always had feelings and lust for men but was terrified of them. I prayed. I cried. I tried to suppress them. I slept with a prostitute in Amsterdam. Nothing worked; the feelings and lust remained. Also AIDS was raging and I was terrified of that.

Then something inside years later just clicked. A different point of view; an acceptance, and I was cool with who I was. I also had a good friend who helped see me through.

Won't ever go in the closet. Everything fell into place after acceptance. My novel writing in particular flowed freely after this event. I should add I am blessed to be living in a somewhat tolerant country, parents who love me and try to understand me, and a job where people know who I am.

As Toddy said in Victor/Victoria, I was a late bloomer.

21

I probably will be in the closet for the rest of my life (as long as I am living here), but I am a happy out of closet gay men when I cross the border.

You never know when someone's going to come out. It's all very personal. I came out when I was 14, but I remember reading about a guy from Key West that finally came out when he was 68! He wanted to wait till his parents and wife were dead before he felt comfortable enough to come out. He didn't want to ruin his wife's name or the family because of how he was brought up. I'd have mixed feelings about it because part of me would think that he's wasted all these years in closet, but at the same time, it must feel like such a relief to finally do it. Sad thing is that some people aren't willing to ever let themselves come out and will die without letting themselves be who they really are.

Drob
you get shit because you "appear" to randomly judge people based on your ideological standards, not because you spent any time getting to know the person.

How old is too old to be closeted? When you've reached the age that everyone - you know well - already knows your gay even though you haven't told them and that can be anywhere from 5 - 95 so there ya go.

And you're right some people are not out because, yes, they are insecure in the unknown of what might happen - which is the same reason plenty of people don't cliff dive, race cars, sky-dive, chase their dream career, try out for American Idol, tell their parents everything they are up to as opposed to just saying "oh nothing"...

You made your decisions for yourself, why can't others have the same choices and respect?

Lyte,

I am who I am. I am a proud gay men, I love, date , fuck and behave just like you , out of the closet guys. It just I dont tell straight people about it. The way I look at it, my sexuality is nobody business but myself. I have a great family (siblings ) and friend. They can never accept me for who I am. Why do I want to destroyed and hurt those people I love by telling them stuff they dont want to hear. Why do I want to expose myself to be a subject of ridicule and a butt of office joke.

Personally, I have no regret being in the closet (even if I die tommorrow). I have done everything just like most other gay guys . I have ton of gay sex, I have live with a men, I have dance in gay disco, I have love and be love by a men and I have all kind of gay friend. Just like an actor, I play straight at certain time and gay at other time. But inside I am gay to the core.

It is simply maths:

take the number of cousins you have, multiply by 3.66855, add 7. This number is your Golden Number and represents the exact age at which you should come out, or I will judge you. It is applicable across all cultures and social situations.

You have obviously lived a very sheltered life with your head in the sand. Pathetic OP.

Lostboy saidIt is simply maths:

take the number of cousins you have, multiply by 3.66855, add 7. This number is your Golden Number and represents the exact age at which you should come out, or I will judge you. It is applicable across all cultures and social situations.

BACK IN THE CLOSET WITH YOU!

Let's not be too hard on Drob. His youthful idealism is refreshing. There is a great deal of truth in what he said. But at age 19, he has not lived long enough to understand a great deal beyond his own life experience. The older we are, the more responsibilities we acquire, and real men take those responsibilities seriously. There is no one right or wrong answer. Everyone has to find his own way.

Even as it seems that we pass through a moment of revelation into a moment of transition, we ought neglect neither the rough path ahead of us nor the many shadows behind us. Understanding the full effect of repression upon society is supremely difficult when one looks from the crevasse of the now, but there are indicators: old gay people deserted by their families, orphans and survivors of the ongoing AIDS epidemic, desertion and rejection of society by the sweeping utilitarianism that commends itself to those for whom society has no love. If you are able to come out without thought, then that is a cherished bounty of victory; others were either unlucky or lacked courage or were faced with overwhelming danger. To every soldier, fallen or otherwise, that advanced our cause toward the brighter future we owe a great debt that is impossible for us to repay, but should we chide those who could not or cannot make themselves free? Surely we cannot force people to be free? For those souls that are still enclosed by shadows, what can we do but shine the strongest, the most brilliant light towards them?

I don't understand it, because I feel it's just a continuation of a lie, but they have the right to come out whenever they feel comfortable without being judged. In any case, why would it really affect you what their closet-status is? That's their business, not yours...

It's worth noting that a lot of younger gay men aren't going to understand the perpetuation of the closet. Society has changed to where they aren't forced to as many gays were 20, 30 years ago. Hell, even 10 years ago.

Which is why we older gays in our 30s, 40s and beyond need to impart a little history on the younger crowd. They may not appreciate our perspective at all times, but they'll best reshape the world further if they better understand the circumstances previously prevalent.

Sorry RIC... they probably will not listen. Sad.

Ahh, the hubris and conceit of youth. This poster gave me a good laugh.

Luckydog76 saidSorry RIC... they probably will not listen. Sad.

Most of them won't.
This disconnect has been on my mind though. Here in Cincinnati there is a new group of LGBTQ youngsters called IMPACT Cincinnati who're making all sorts of waves and being very dramatic...very much rubbing the old school power guard the wrong way. The argument was, We need to give them (the IMPACT kids) something productive to do. I told my 'peers' that they were somewhat missing the point of our youthful activists actions and intentions. I mean, there has to be a place for ACT UP and Angel Wings in the same LGBTQ community. Just as there has to be HRC, and GLAAD and GLSEN in conjunction with IMPACT and other groups engage in 'radical' think.

RunintheCity saidIt's worth noting that a lot of younger gay men aren't going to understand the perpetuation of the closet. Society has changed to where they aren't forced to as many gays were 20, 30 years ago. Hell, even 10 years ago.

Which is why we older gays in our 30s, 40s and beyond need to impart a little history on the younger crowd. They may not appreciate our perspective at all times, but they'll best reshape the world further if they better understand the circumstances previously prevalent.

very true.... i came out sophomore year of high school to every one and never looked back- i've never had a negative reaction from anyone. and if i DID, i think i'd have the balls and security to realize its their problem, not mine, and that if they feel that way, their opinion doesn't really matter to me anyways.

however in many ways i agree with the OP. i, based on personal experience, just don't understand extended closetism. yes, i know there are dangerous parts of the country to be gay. yes, i know there are jobs where its a touchy subject. but how better to combat those things than to just come out? worst case scenario, you loose your shitty, hateful, repressive job and have to move to a better part of the country- what's wrong with a bit of healthy change and adventure? maybe your aged parents disown you- if so, they never loved you anyways as a parent should- with unconditional love. at least then you'd know.
best case scenario: you're surprised by how little of a problem everyone actually makes of it- the paranoia and insecurity of being closeted has a way of warping how one percieves things and blowing the perceptions of others up bigger than life. do any deny this? in this best case scenario- our 'cause' would be helped (as harvey milk imagined) in that suddenly we wouldn't be this strange mythical creature that some people really believe they've never even come in contact with; we'd be everyone's brothers, bosses, employees, uncles, gym partners, etc. dispelling fear of the unknown is gonna be key in eliminating homophobia once and for all.
and it's slowly happening.
no thanks to the old guys out there who cling to their belief that the world is still a harsher place.

TigerTim saidEven as it seems that we pass through a moment of revelation into a moment of transition, we ought neglect neither the rough path ahead of us nor the many shadows behind us. Understanding the full effect of repression upon society is supremely difficult when one looks from the crevasse of the now, but there are indicators: old gay people deserted by their families, orphans and survivors of the ongoing AIDS epidemic, desertion and rejection of society by the sweeping utilitarianism that commends itself to those for whom society has no love. If you are able to come out without thought, then that is a cherished bounty of victory; others were either unlucky or lacked courage or were faced with overwhelming danger. To every soldier, fallen or otherwise, that advanced our cause toward the brighter future we owe a great debt that is impossible for us to repay, but should we chide those who could not or cannot make themselves free? Surely we cannot force people to be free? For those souls that are still enclosed by shadows, what can we do but shine the strongest, the most brilliant light towards them?

A well written, excogitative message. Thank you for giving us something to ponder throughout the day - week - forever, Tim. It is good to see (read) you again.

GQjock saidNo matter what age you are you have to come to terms with your sexuality and truthfulness in your life
Are there people who will be fired or harassed if they come out of the closet?
Yeah, there are
But by and large there are not that many
and most men who stay in the closet are there because of fear
Fear of being who they really are
and these men are denying themselves a very important part of life
to be true to themselves in every way

Yes, GQ is correct. From someone who has been there and didn't come out until much later, even though I realized it several years ago, it's not cut and dry like one would think. Yeah, it's easy for certain people to make comments about dishonesty, unreal, etc but until you've walked in someone's shoes, you really don't understand. Fear is very hard to deal with. The fear of losing everything, home, family, money, friends at a later age is brutal! It might look easy from an outsider's vantage but it's not. It's a process, but that process begins when they quit denying themselves, unfortunately that's the hard part.

I think to make an absolute judgement based on something like age is pretty inappropriate to begin with.

I didn't "come out" until I was 32. Many might say I was "in denial", but it wasn't even a conscious kind of thing. The idea that 25 is an age for anthing is really kind of ridiculous. Once I started dealing with it, I made the decision pretty quickly, but it was an acceptance of who I am.. not whether I was to be "closeted" or not.

Considering the vastly improving (but still anal) views of state governments, employers, families, etc, I never make blanket judgements about how "out"
people are their sexuality. Sure, it can be irritating when a friend is psycho about someone finding out about their preference, but I think its something each must deal with individually... and never some "blanket" view about when someone should or should have accepted who they are an come out of the closet.

dead

czarodziej saidno thanks to the old guys out there who cling to their belief that the world is still a harsher place.

Pffft..That's rich and typical.

Anyway, I firmly believe the world has moved on, but not nearly as far as we might think. I also firmly believe that visibility is power. The more of us who are out, the more power we can give those who want to come out, but feel powerless to do so.

Having said that, I dont think it is anyone's place to out someone. We each have taken, are taking and will take our own personal journey of self discovery and to suggest that it is our duty to out each other once we know someone is gay is ludicrous with the exception as someone earlier said about closeted people running around crying about we homosexuals are the destruction to life as we know it. I have several friends who still closeted and I understand each of their reasons why. I have told most of them the stress in their lives would be diminished greatly if they would just simply drop the act and come out and it would. But it's not my place. And I could not date or be in a relationship with anyone who is still in the closet. It is too much work and it is detrimental to both. I was involved in a relationship like this and it was the most difficult relationship I ever had. I really did have to sort of go back to the closet and when I realized that was what I was doing, I got out. And it was best for him as well since he no longer had to worry if he would be found out by being with me.

At the end of the day, the only person we have to answer to is ourselves and we have to do what is right for ourselves. I came out when I was 28 (1990) and never looked back. I can only hope that there are others who will do the same.

Tapper saidThis OP reminds me of fuck turds like Perez Hilton who like nothing more than to out closeted gays because they feel it's their responsibility to tell individuals how they should live their lives. It's the polar opposite of right-wing conservative bullshit.

DrobUA, I'm grabbing the popcorn. Your post makes me think you're a masochist. Are you? Get on your knees and suck it, you filthy little bitch! Turned on? I thought as much.

But seriously, it's good to see young bucks such as yourself with this kind of attitude, though it's a bit misguided and unhealthy. I'm sure we'll see fewer closeted gays as more people around the world begin accepting gays in their respective societies, but we're a long way from that.

It simply isn't as easy for them as it is for guys like yourself.

Men and women have their reasons for being closeted, but it's almost always because they fear for their reputation, their well being, the well being of their families, their careers, etc. Note that there are PLENTY of states that allow for their residents to be fired from their jobs for being gay, or arrested for sodomy. True story. Look it up.

It is illegal to arrest anyone for sodomy you could easily bring a 1983 action against the arresting officer and collect damages. hello lawrence

i love it how you assume that everyone on this site is in the US

chungo44 said
It is illegal to arrest anyone for sodomy you could easily bring a 1983 action against the arresting officer and collect damages. hello lawrence

True based on Supreme Court ruling in 2003 for all 50 states, DC and PR. Of course that doesn't hold true for other countries still. As for firing, yes, sadly that still exists. I have a relative that fired an employee of his company for being gay. I was shocked to told him so! Unfortunately it was too late.

TigerTim saidEven as it seems that we pass through a moment of revelation into a moment of transition, we ought neglect neither the rough path ahead of us nor the many shadows behind us. Understanding the full effect of repression upon society is supremely difficult when one looks from the crevasse of the now, but there are indicators: old gay people deserted by their families, orphans and survivors of the ongoing AIDS epidemic, desertion and rejection of society by the sweeping utilitarianism that commends itself to those for whom society has no love. If you are able to come out without thought, then that is a cherished bounty of victory; others were either unlucky or lacked courage or were faced with overwhelming danger. To every soldier, fallen or otherwise, that advanced our cause toward the brighter future we owe a great debt that is impossible for us to repay, but should we chide those who could not or cannot make themselves free? Surely we cannot force people to be free? For those souls that are still enclosed by shadows, what can we do but shine the strongest, the most brilliant light towards them?

This.

Tapper said

Get on your knees and suck it, you filthy little bitch! Turned on? I thought as much.

. . . yes, yes i am

TigerTim saidEven as it seems that we pass through a moment of revelation into a moment of transition, we ought neglect neither the rough path ahead of us nor the many shadows behind us. Understanding the full effect of repression upon society is supremely difficult when one looks from the crevasse of the now, but there are indicators: old gay people deserted by their families, orphans and survivors of the ongoing AIDS epidemic, desertion and rejection of society by the sweeping utilitarianism that commends itself to those for whom society has no love. If you are able to come out without thought, then that is a cherished bounty of victory; others were either unlucky or lacked courage or were faced with overwhelming danger. To every soldier, fallen or otherwise, that advanced our cause toward the brighter future we owe a great debt that is impossible for us to repay, but should we chide those who could not or cannot make themselves free? Surely we cannot force people to be free? For those souls that are still enclosed by shadows, what can we do but shine the strongest, the most brilliant light towards them?

Nicely put! Bravo.

Lostboy saidIt is simply maths:

take the number of cousins you have, multiply by 3.66855, add 7. This number is your Golden Number and represents the exact age at which you should come out, or I will judge you. It is applicable across all cultures and social situations.

I have 18 cousins...

skifan08 said

Lostboy saidIt is simply maths:

take the number of cousins you have, multiply by 3.66855, add 7. This number is your Golden Number and represents the exact age at which you should come out, or I will judge you. It is applicable across all cultures and social situations.

I have 18 cousins...

hey, that's only 50 more years! Hang in there! LOL

svengali11 saidAhh, the hubris and conceit of youth. This poster gave me a good laugh.

After reading thtough all the postings I decided to add my 2 cents and the sentiment of the quote above is pretty accurate for me as well.

>Drags out soapbox and ready to get bombarded<
For those of us old enough to remember "DISCO" which is before when most of you were born it was a time that was exciting , feeling that you were really getting away with something but yet a time of a true double standard, "QUEER" had a stigma. It meant no job advances, it meant being beat up (which was condoned more back then in some communities), it meant being ostracized even by your family.. So many of out fetishes and behaviors may have stemmed out of being in the closet. Presently, it is easier to be who you are because of a couple of generations of liberal thinking has lead to a wider acceptance. But presently also you have to work harder for what you want out of being gay.

Long story short....unfortunately some men have made their choice. They maybe unhappy with it but it is still their choice and we should be sensitive to at least accept it even though we may not agree with it. Arrogant dismissal for those that are in the closet still is no better than being a biggot calling a person an ethnic slur. One can have an opinion but also be aware that ones personal life experience may be limited. So before being judgemental think what if you lived at a time you would fear to be open in society.

Personally, Im out but not a flag waving ,pink triangle wearing kind of guy. When asked I'll definitely respond that Im gay. But what I do sexually is no ones business except those I choose to have sex with.
nuff said
>puts away soapbox

And we've barely touched upon - although TigerTim rather eloquently pointed it out - the fact that coming out - LIVING YOUR TRUTH - takes balls. Guts and courage that not everyone can muster for various reasons. I think empathy is more useful here than scorn.

Kudos to those who came out early and charged ahead. But have a little heart and faith in and for your LGBT brothers and sisters who lack the confidence, the safe circumstance or whatever to do likewise.

I came out in my 20s...and wished I'd done so much sooner instead of letting fear grip my early adulthood. Parents and religion and financial safety be damned.

skifan08 said

Lostboy saidIt is simply maths:

take the number of cousins you have, multiply by 3.66855, add 7. This number is your Golden Number and represents the exact age at which you should come out, or I will judge you. It is applicable across all cultures and social situations.

I have 18 cousins...

There is an exception. If your number of cousins is more than 2.48 times more than your number of siblings, then you have to replace the number of cousins with the number of male cousins you have.

We wouldn´t want it to look like we just plucked a number out of the air without taking individual circumstances into account.

RunintheCity saidAnd we've barely touched upon - although TigerTim rather eloquently pointed it out - the fact that coming out - LIVING YOUR TRUTH - takes balls. Guts and courage that not everyone can muster for various reasons. I think empathy is more useful here than scorn.

Kudos to those who came out early and charged ahead. But have a little heart and faith in and for your LGBT brothers and sisters who lack the confidence, the safe circumstance or whatever to do likewise.

I came out in my 20s...and wished I'd done so much sooner instead of letting fear grip my early adulthood. Parents and religion and financial safety be damned.

Another nicely worded response. I came out at 50, regrets, oh yeah but it was ignorance (truly didn't get it), followed by fear (after getting married) and the courage it took to know that in one short sentence I could be isolating my spouse, my children and my family, lose my home, and be out in the street is more than you will ever know. You can call the 22 yr marriage a sham, disgraceful, not honest, whatever but I tried to make it work and I did it with the best of intention and integrity. If I had to blame anyone, it would be our society for closing down sexuality as a topic of learning and acceptance. Perhaps if I had known at 20, I would have understood why I felt the way I did and could have come out and my town of 2000 would have been able to accept me. But no, and now that little town is still trying to learn how to spell gay, let alone what it really means.

Lostboy said

skifan08 said

Lostboy saidIt is simply maths:

take the number of cousins you have, multiply by 3.66855, add 7. This number is your Golden Number and represents the exact age at which you should come out, or I will judge you. It is applicable across all cultures and social situations.

I have 18 cousins...

There is an exception. If your number of cousins is more than 2.48 times more than your number of siblings, then you have to replace the number of cousins with the number of male cousins you have.

I just keep complicating things - I'm an only child. Although, I guess that automatically means that my number of cousins is more than my number of siblings, just not a multiple. I'm glad this exception exists.

eb925guy said Another nicely worded response. I came out at 50, regrets, oh yeah but it was ignorance (truly didn't get it), followed by fear (after getting married) and the courage it took to know that in one short sentence I could be isolating my spouse, my children and my family, lose my home, and be out in the street is more than you will ever know. You can call the 22 yr marriage a sham, disgraceful, not honest, whatever but I tried to make it work and I did it with the best of intention and integrity. If I had to blame anyone, it would be our society for closing down sexuality as a topic of learning and acceptance. Perhaps if I had known at 20, I would have understood why I felt the way I did and could have come out and my town of 2000 would have been able to accept me. But no, and now that little town is still trying to learn how to spell gay, let alone what it really means.

This is the sort of thing I was speaking about earlier in the thread. The context of gay history. Times HAVE changed, and for the better. In the present day, a situation such as yours need not be. Congrats to you for finally finding and living your truth.

czarodziej said "no thanks to the old guys out there who cling to their belief that the world is still a harsher place."

We actually owe quite a debt of gratitude to these old guys for allowing today’s youth to feel the way the OP does about coming out. Without their courage and willingness to stand up to homophobia in the workplace, among family members, and in society in general, many more would still have to be in the closet without the freedom to choose whether or not they could come out.

I was a late bloomer, in part because of the “gay stereotype”. I thought because I didn’t outwardly possess many typically “gay” traits (effeminate, loved show tunes, loved decorating – outdated I know), I must not be gay. So I think those who do come out do a great service to society for showing a more diverse face to our community and setting an example for today’s youth.

Ultimately, however, I hope we get to a point in our society where no one needs to come out. I mean, who really cares who I sleep with? Isn’t this similar to diversity in the straight community? Do I really need to know that my colleague Bill is a straight man into bondage and that my neighbor Frank is a boob man and loves to rub his dick against tits? Isn’t this TMI? At the end of the day, I want to share with colleagues and friends what I did last weekend with my partner or the vacation we’re planning this summer. Why does it matter whether it’s a guy or a girl?

RunintheCity said
This is the sort of thing I was speaking about earlier in the thread. The context of gay history. Times HAVE changed, and for the better. In the present day, a situation such as yours need not be. Congrats to you for finally finding and living your truth.

First thanks, I'm finally happy for being who I am. Unfortunately times still needs to move ahead. Short story, 19 yr from on here (RJ) sent me a message saying hello, we chatted, got to know each other, nice kid. Closeted, mid-west, afraid to come out to his parents (lives at home still) for fear of rejection, getting kicked out of the house, whatever. Made him promise to contact me if he ever gets "stuck" and needs help. 2 weeks later, he does. Text me that his dad found gay porn on his computer, has to go home, is grounded, dad took his car and computer, doesn't want to, rather get hit by a semi. I chat with him, told him he needed to go home, be honest, tell his parents. He goes home, I don't hear from him for over a week until this morning. He did not come out because of fear. Doing fine, but the fear remains based on exactly what I feared at 50. It's a process and I suspect that for him it will happen eventually but acceptance isn't there yet and that leaves plenty of room for fear to rear it's ugly head.

Is he too far from any place with resources, such as an LGBTQ center that might aid him through the process? Any time I've encountered kids in that situation, I'm on the web getting them in touch with the right people to help them through their crisis period.

RunintheCity saidIs he too far from any place with resources, such as an LGBTQ center that might aid him through the process? Any time I've encountered kids in that situation, I'm on the web getting them in touch with the right people to help them through their crisis period.

Unfortunately he is sort of isolated away from any large community. I will bring that up now that he's back to communicating. Thanks, it's a great idea.

One caveat to this thread that is HIGHLY IMPORTANT to note and has been stated before in previous (similar) threads...
To be young and gay and out today is nothing compared to the disdain, ostracization, humiliation and criminalization of being gay and "out" as little as 15 years ago and was even worse 20 years ago. So to be 20'something today and say what's the big deal???

In your life - NOTHING, to be gay is practically common place.

But travel to back 1994 and anytime before and be prepared to be exhiled, terminated from employ, judged, spat at with populous epitaths of hate (by the masses not some church group of 50 people or less) and wished death upon, harrassed and beaten up daily by class mates, to be considered the same as a pedaphile and kicked out of your home and family and then come pontificate in here how those not out should be judge and called liars.

You ask why would some one who is 68 carry this through their life and not have come out when they were young... Simple, because if they had come out at 20, their were great odds that they would have been killed by age 20 1/2.

So stop judging and start thanking those who fought, were subjected to all of the above and won so that you could announce "I'm gay!" and your friends and family would only say "so?"

answer your guestion?

It's different for different people, depending on where they live on this planet, what their financial situation is, etc.

For me, I was 20, and couldn;t take it anymore. I think that if people have prepared for the possible financial repercussions from losing family and therefore school money, or a job, then they should come out. It's better to thrive in the light than shrink in the darkness.

I won;t date guys who aren't out though. I'm not dealing with that shit.

I'm not sure if anyone's brought it up yet (the thread's too long for me to read and reply to with only 15 minutes before work), but Michelangelo Singorile covers the idea of outting closeted people who are causing harm, or people who could really help the community/movement/whateverthefuckyouwanttocallit if they were out in the public eye, in his book Queer in America.

I'm wholly agree with the above two situations he brings up in that book.

If you place yourself in a public forum, you should expect to have people dig and uncover your personal life. That's just the name of the game. Crying foul after the fact is silly... these people have to be aware of what they're getting into. They might as well come out on their own terms. Anderson Cooper and Rickey Marten, I'm looking at you.

But then we have closeted gay politicians who are passing anti-gay legislation and using their pulpit to tar and feather out brothers and sisters... actively causing harm. These people are total scum, and deserve to be shown as the hypocritical asshats they are. They are in a place where they could make thousands of lives better, including their own, but choose not to.

Coming out is an ongoing process that can take years. When is one officially out? IDK, for me it was when I told my family at the age of 29.

Like many things in life it depends on your situation, including finances, society you live in, etc.. There is no point in declaring your sexual orientation at the age of 15 if that results in being booted out of the house and being forced to live on the streets. Or to come out at 28 in a society where being gay could result in your execution.

One conclusion that can be made is that it is easier to come out today then it was in the 1980s. In the 1980s it was easier then it was in the 1960s, and so on.

Coming out in your own time is better than to adhere to any kind of social standard.

about 7, at that stage you've read about narnia, and realise that it ain't no fun being stuck in a closet with a horny lion.....



Unless your into that type of thing

BURN THE WITCH!

I'm a tad bit appalled by how these young, whipper snapper, heifer, not even legal to have a beer, callow boys have such a critical opinion of others with regard to their sexuality.

It demonstrates total lack of compassion for others which, for some, can be a very sensitive subject.

Consider yourself exceptionally lucky if you don't have the problems that so many gays and lesbians face not only in our country but in much worse places like the middle east where people are executed for their sexuality.

There are youth programs in cities as modern and progressive as NYC for teenagers that have been anathematized from their family and homes simply for being gay. When I think of them and read your post I can't help but think how you are trivializing an extremely delicate issue for people like you that are teenagers themselves with no home of family that loves them.

For the record, I came out at 18. I can't believe it's been 20 years already. But I remember how rough that was and was extremely depressed at the time. There were no programs for youths back then, as far as I know. I did it all alone. And just think of how much worse it was for people in the 70's that were fighting for our rights. Your rights. Please have some compassion for others.

DrobUA said I've heard a lot of "I have to be in the closet because of my job". bullshit. Unless you are the NFL's official prostate examiner then I don't see any job where you're job would be a reason to lie about who you are.

Really. I was fired from mine in December when they discovered my orientation. And I'd never been "closeted", I simply had never discussed it.

tafkalil saidComing out in your own time is better than to adhere to any kind of social standard.

QFT!

My target is "As soon as I'm out of this godforsaken jungle".

Why does anyone's reasons have to be accepted by you, mr. poster? You're really showing your age with your small perspectives. I could give you my perspective on self-described "bi" guys but it's none of my business. I think the only thing you're right-on about is that being closeted is about insecurity (as are so many more things in life), but it's also about self-discovery (which is an on-going process). Just because you "came out" as "bi" (nice safety net, by the way) does not put you on a pedastal above others who are coming out at older ages.

Ask and you shall receive I guess so here goes on getting your ass chewed.

It's funny how you can judge a person who is over the age of 25 and still in the closet when you aren't even old enough to buy liquor. That's hilarious. Maybe when you've tacked on a few more years and get past 25 you'll understand things better and think outside that box.

Also maybe when you get a job that has of some kind of status you might rethink your answer of "That's bullshit." It's not so black and white as you think but seeing as how you are rather young, and I dare say inexperienced, this type of response from you isn't uncommon. You haven't worked so hard for x amount of years to establish yourself and then to have it come crumbling down because society can't accept your personal sexual preference. The biggest smack in the face is that even though your preference in gender has nothing to do with your job in any way it can still get you fired.

What is a closeted person anyway? What makes the cut? Is it someone who is gay but discreet in their actions or is it someone who is gay but in denial of their gayhood? One could say you, the OP, was in the closet since you had a girlfriend and then decided to come out for whatever reason. Kudos to you.

The reason you haven't heard any good reasons is because of your age and lack of experience. You're freaking 19. I can still smell the milk from your mom's breast on your breathe. What do you know about having a job, a career, a life profession and having to choose between your sexual preference and your way of living? Nothing I would imagine. Many people don't see a reason for others to know what they do behind closed doors. In reality it's really no one's business what they do with whoever and since it's no one's business then there's no reason to tell anyone.

Ok. Ass chewed enough. I don't like the taste of inexperienced ass. LOL.

To answer the original question of how old is too old to be closeted is simple. It depends on the person. There is no age limit. Whenever that person feels it's right for them come out is there choice. Things are so much more easier then they where 10, 15, 20, possibly 50 years ago when the thought of just being gay had you branded and outcast. You aren't even old or mature enough to appreciate how good you got it now.

LOL.

69

waxon said21

What he said...
Once you are legal and old enough to be a grown up,, time to start taking full control of ALL you actions.

Hmm, there seems to be a lot of hostility in this thread.

I can relate to the OP in a way. I was closeted for most of college, had a girl friend, and pretended to be straight with my friends. I have recently come out of the closet as my relationship with my last girlfriend got really screwed up. I realized that I was being selfish as an individual lying to these people.

But this isn't to say that I think older men who are still in the closet are cowards, selfish, or anything like that. I think the OP is mostly talking about issues where "straight" men cheat on their girlfriends or wife, etc. Obviously, to protect oneself from society or to keep a job is completely different.

But to get to the point, everyone seems to chastise the OP for his question, but shouldn't you be happy (to some extend) that we, as a young generation of gays, do not have to go through the same fears, worries, and anxieties that you had to when coming out? If anything, I think that this thread shows the incredible amount of change that is going on today, and it is thanks to those who are 30 and above.

That is just my 2 cents, flame away.

Chainers said But to get to the point, everyone seems to chastise the OP for his question, but shouldn't you be happy (to some extend) that we, as a young generation of gays, do not have to go through the same fears, worries, and anxieties that you had to when coming out? If anything, I think that this thread shows the incredible amount of change that is going on today, and it is thanks to those who are 30 and above.

Speaking for myself only, I am thrilled that the young'uns don't have to face the kinds of pressures and insane hatreds that we older guys did. This is what we worked for, hoped for, and kept our eyes on. Not that this work is done, but still, it's a different world than the one I grew up in, and that's great.

But not every area of the country has come along at the same speed (although Iowa proves that there can be unexpected progress in the oddest places). I will never go back in the closet, but there are sometimes costs, even in "liberal" South Florida.

Guys, the Golden Number was revealed to me in a vision of Kylie and Judie Garland.

Do not argue... just obey.



(and many parts of the world are many many years behind the USA in tolerance.)

Lostboy saidGuys, the Golden Number was revealed to me in a vision of Kylie and Judie Garland.

Do not argue... just obey.



(and many parts of the world are many many years behind the USA in tolerance.)

I wont argue if you tell us what this Golden Number is...

hmmm good question, but I came out when I was 16.5 and moved out of the house to be on my own, I moved to Santa Cruz and began my life as a queer boy,

yep Queer (Rebel) not fag, or sissy, but just a gay queer boy part of "actup"
I think if you live in the closet maybe your really ashamed of who you are and want to be, I believe in being your self and being open & honest, I lice that today and grateful and thankful of who I am as a person but as a Kind Human being.

being in the closet is like living a lie and I just can't do that or be apart of what that takes out of you.. as a gay man living in the gay city of all time, San Francisco, I am happy to have came out and been able to be and see my self grow as a gay man.

Life is good, I do worry that sometimes when your in the closet you miss out on what's part of the culture and people and the friends you make along the way's of life.

but be your self learn and grow as a person but also don't live a lie. it will only Kill you. trust me. I know friends that aren't out yet and they have to hide and make excuse's on why this or why that.

just come out be happy and people will like you for who you are and the honesty you bring to encounters you.

Lostboy saidGuys, the Golden Number was revealed to me in a vision of Kylie and Judie Garland.

Do not argue... just obey.



(and many parts of the world are many many years behind the USA in tolerance.)

as are many many places that are way ahead of USA in tolerance, which shouldn't be forgotten in the context of this thread.

to answer the original question. there is a time when you have to come out to yourself, which is the most important decision. the sooner that happens, the better. as far as public coming out for any person, it's as circumstances dictate. in saudi arabia and such? maybe never. elsewhere? who cares, as long as you are not hurting anyone.

Tapper saidThis OP reminds me of fuck turds like Perez Hilton who like nothing more than to out closeted gays because they feel it's their responsibility to tell individuals how they should live their lives. It's the polar opposite of right-wing conservative bullshit.

DrobUA, I'm grabbing the popcorn. Your post makes me think you're a masochist. Are you? Get on your knees and suck it, you filthy little bitch! Turned on? I thought as much.

But seriously, it's good to see young bucks such as yourself with this kind of attitude, though it's a bit misguided and unhealthy. I'm sure we'll see fewer closeted gays as more people around the world begin accepting gays in their respective societies, but we're a long way from that.

It simply isn't as easy for them as it is for guys like yourself.

Men and women have their reasons for being closeted, but it's almost always because they fear for their reputation, their well being, the well being of their families, their careers, etc. Note that there are PLENTY of states that allow for their residents to be fired from their jobs for being gay, or arrested for sodomy. True story. Look it up.

I am NOTHING like Perz Hilton. I would under no circumstance out anyone. It is not my secret to tell. I merely said that whether I want to or not I subconsciously judge them. By judge I mean I question why someone would lie for that many years. Not sure where masochist comes into the picture but no.. I am not.

carabin saidi love it how you assume that everyone on this site is in the US

Well obviously my experience is limited to people in my country. Living in a place where it is illegal to be gay is obviously a very good reason to be closeted.

Surfwarrior saidabout 7, at that stage you've read about narnia, and realise that it ain't no fun being stuck in a closet with a horny lion.....



Unless your into that type of thing

HAHAHAHAHA

chgometro saidWhy does anyone's reasons have to be accepted by you, mr. poster? You're really showing your age with your small perspectives. I could give you my perspective on self-described "bi" guys but it's none of my business. I think the only thing you're right-on about is that being closeted is about insecurity (as are so many more things in life), but it's also about self-discovery (which is an on-going process). Just because you "came out" as "bi" (nice safety net, by the way) does not put you on a pedastal above others who are coming out at older ages.

Actually my post says I came out as gay.. I later realized I was bi. I know exactly what your perspective on "bi" is. You think it is a gay guy who wants to sugar coat it. Not always the case.

DrobUA said

chgometro saidWhy does anyone's reasons have to be accepted by you, mr. poster? You're really showing your age with your small perspectives. I could give you my perspective on self-described "bi" guys but it's none of my business. I think the only thing you're right-on about is that being closeted is about insecurity (as are so many more things in life), but it's also about self-discovery (which is an on-going process). Just because you "came out" as "bi" (nice safety net, by the way) does not put you on a pedastal above others who are coming out at older ages.

Actually my post says I came out as gay.. I later realized I was bi. I know exactly what your perspective on "bi" is. You think it is a gay guy who wants to sugar coat it. Not always the case.

Can we judge you for being bi?

DrobUA said
Well obviously my experience is limited to people in my country. Living in a place where it is illegal to be gay is obviously a very good reason to be closeted.

I don't really agree with this. It was illegal to be gay in my state until 1996. Then one gay couple went to the police station and admitted to being gay - forcing their arrest and subsequent public outcry. Now Tasmania has the most progressive gay laws in the country. Tasmania would still be Iran if it wasn't for those two men.

For each person who comes out, it becomes easier for the next person. It makes the world a better place for everyone. I think there's an obligation on all of us to be out of the closet as soon as we're internally ready.

COJock1974 said

DrobUA said

chgometro saidWhy does anyone's reasons have to be accepted by you, mr. poster? You're really showing your age with your small perspectives. I could give you my perspective on self-described "bi" guys but it's none of my business. I think the only thing you're right-on about is that being closeted is about insecurity (as are so many more things in life), but it's also about self-discovery (which is an on-going process). Just because you "came out" as "bi" (nice safety net, by the way) does not put you on a pedastal above others who are coming out at older ages.

Actually my post says I came out as gay.. I later realized I was bi. I know exactly what your perspective on "bi" is. You think it is a gay guy who wants to sugar coat it. Not always the case.

Can we judge you for being bi?

Absolutely.. I'm used to it. Thats why I just use the gay label. It's less confusing to straight folk.

dfrw> I certainly wish that everyone would come out. However, it is a different time now DrobUA. It is far easier, although still difficult, to come out today than it was in the 20th century. You have to remember that the way that things are now is NOT the way they were in the past. Incredible strides have been made in the past few years

I think you're right, but I think a less nice way to say what you just said (and probably the way I'd have blurted it out) is that some people who are older have "baggage". They live in the world in which they grew up. Those are the norms that they - and their peers - know.


Czarodziej> worst case scenario, you loose your shitty, hateful, repressive job and have to move to a better part of the country- what's wrong with a bit of healthy change and adventure?

I'm a fan of your postings, so don't take this the wrong way but: spoken like a 20 year old. Young people should be adventurous and for a large part they have little to lose... so it's easy to take the plunge. But when you're older and have more to protect, you become more conservative and risk averse. Say of someone has been working hard at his job/career and he's close to that promotion... it's not the time to pick up and start over somewhere else.

I'd actually argue that the worst case scenario isn't really that likely (nor the best case, I'm sure there's a bell curve here). Yet I suspect many people use the worst case scenario as a crutch, a pretense, not to come out.


bgcat57> the longer someone stays comfortably in the closet the more they may lose when they come out

And certainly they have that perception. I have a friend who is a doctor... and he doesn't want his medical partner to know. As if he doesn't already? But there is this safety zone of not discussing something, leaves room for plausible deniability if there is ever a need.

There is also the fact that living in the closet perpetuates... living in the closet. If you're out and the people you meet find that out pretty quickly, you aren't left in the predicament of coming out or not to someone you've known for 10 years, etc.


All of which brings up another age old question: out to who?
Yourself?
Your parents/siblings/cousins?
Your room-mate(s) and friends?
Your boss, colleagues or clients?
The entire world?

I think the first one is really the biggest and most difficult step, one that often you have to do on your own. Once you've made "first contact", you've got someone to talk to. No age is too late to come out. I know people who came out after they retired or after their wives died.

At what age is it too late to come out to your family? Well, depends on how your family will take it. For those of us who are lucky enough to have been born into accepting families, it's easy to say people should come out to their families. Sometimes life is complicated.

Keep in mind that many gays 30 and older grew up in a time when it was not safe or cool to be out and that has hindered their sense of security to this day.

i don't think it should be anyone's business when a person decides to come out. if you don't want to date a person that is still in the closet, don't date a person that is still in the closet. i truly wish we lived in a world where this wasn't an issue and i strongly encourage everyone to come out but if they are not ready to, then they should not. i know that some people will say,
"well they are 40 and they are sleeping with married men." yes, i agree that would be wrong, but there are some people who are just not yet ready to come out. maybe they don't anyone that they can trust will still be there for them once they tell that person that they are gay. i think it is part of our responsibility as a community to encourage those that might be scared to come out...not criticize them.

coolarmydude saidKeep in mind that many gays 30 and older grew up in a time when it was not safe or cool to be out and that has hindered their sense of security to this day.

I think that should be 40 and over, 30 is way to conservative, and as some-one who is over 40. I myself find that a poor excuse, as there is no excuse now, if you live in the free world!

I myself have the appearance of being straight. No acting involved, just being me a regular guy, who also just happens to be a pure homosexual; a fag. But I refuse to live a lie, just for the sake of other peoples feeling. They can't love me very much if they expect me to live a lie.

Also as some-one over 40. Not only did I not wait for it too be safe, to come out. I fort for the rights of homosexuals too, way back when, to be able to be safe and out.

One word this whole thread can be boiled down to is this: RESPECT. ( Aretha said it best) We need to embrace and respect the differences and diversity even within our own community. How can we expect this from outside when we seem to be fractioned ourselves.

We may not agree with the closet philosophy for whatever reson but because it still exists as a viable option for some we need to be more tolerant regardless of our personal opinions. Its just the right thing to do. Yeah I know I put away my soapbox earlier..... I think I need to resurrect the teachings of Leo Buscaglia for the under 35 crowd - but thats another thread.

pattison said

coolarmydude saidKeep in mind that many gays 30 and older grew up in a time when it was not safe or cool to be out and that has hindered their sense of security to this day.

I think that should be 40 and over, 30 is way to conservative, and as some-one who is over 40. I myself find that a poor excuse, as there is no excuse now, if you live in the free world!

I myself have the appearance of being straight. No acting involved, just being me a regular guy, who also just happens to be a pure homosexual; a fag. But I refuse to live a lie, just for the sake of other peoples feeling. They can't love me very much if they expect me to live a lie.

Also as some-one over 40. Not only did I not wait for it too be safe, to come out. I fort for the rights of homosexuals too, way back when, to be able to be safe and out.

You appear straight.. you must be one of those self loathing guys. (joking but I hear that a lot). i don't think I was hiding the fact that I was trying to hit some nerves. Heated discussions are always more interesting.. I personally have no problem with closeted guys. The guy I'm seeing is closeted. I can understand why anyone would want to save themselves from judgement. I just don't understand how you can go your entire life walking on eggshells. It would drive me nuts.

Life is more complicated than simply coming out and you'll be free sort of thing. It's dangerous to force people to do that or to convince them too when they may not be ready for it or the situation they are in. People should be helped and supported, but not forced or judged. That's just, actually I don't know what to make of that except that maybe the person doing the judging still has some sort of issues about it with himself or herself, or that maybe they don't actually care about the person per se but more the advancement of their own ideology regardless of how it affects the person that is being subject to it (like religious fundamentalists).

Being in the closet is not necessarily selfish either. And to what degree of being in the closet are you talking about? You don't have to announce to everyone that you are gay for example to be out of the closet.

Also, as it has been said before, not everyone lives in an environment that is accepting of gays and not everyone who is gay identifies with the 'gay cultures' present in the more gay accepting areas of the country.

You could be living in a place that comes off as being gay friendly, but once you find yourself in a situation where 'the rules' (like laws which enforce tolerance or peer pressure to treat gays with tolerance) don't apply anymore or they come down to just being between a small group of people or just you and another person, you'll see just how far things have or have not advanced.

wduc900ss saidhmmm good question, but I came out when I was 16.5 and moved out of the house to be on my own, I moved to Santa Cruz and began my life as a queer boy,

yep Queer (Rebel) not fag, or sissy, but just a gay queer boy part of "actup"
I think if you live in the closet maybe your really ashamed of who you are and want to be, I believe in being your self and being open & honest, I lice that today and grateful and thankful of who I am as a person but as a Kind Human being.

being in the closet is like living a lie and I just can't do that or be apart of what that takes out of you.. as a gay man living in the gay city of all time, San Francisco, I am happy to have came out and been able to be and see my self grow as a gay man.

Life is good, I do worry that sometimes when your in the closet you miss out on what's part of the culture and people and the friends you make along the way's of life.

but be your self learn and grow as a person but also don't live a lie. it will only Kill you. trust me. I know friends that aren't out yet and they have to hide and make excuse's on why this or why that.

just come out be happy and people will like you for who you are and the honesty you bring to encounters you.

At 16.5 how'd your wife take it? your kids? how about your employer of 15 or 20 yrs? Did you have issues with splitting up your retirement or savings when you divorced? Sell the house or keep it? What was it like to take the clunker and leave the nice car for her? Did you rent a room or an apartment when you got kicked out? How was the depression afterwards in comparison to before?

Yes, you make good points about missing out on the culture and cultivating friends in the community by being closeted but there are some who for a variety (and I mean a variety, ie: religion, family, ignorance, marriage, family, finances, fear) don't know about all that until later and then it's not so easy.

The real life issues scare the fuck out of you. You think 16.5 is scary? Try 40 or 50, half way through your life before you can muster up the courage to change the course of not one life but many!

Once we do that, generally people will like us but the point many miss is that the first step of figuring out and accepting who YOU are is the toughest and for some it's 16.5 yrs for others of us it's 50.

Chainers said

Lostboy saidGuys, the Golden Number was revealed to me in a vision of Kylie and Judie Garland.

Do not argue... just obey.



(and many parts of the world are many many years behind the USA in tolerance.)

I wont argue if you tell us what this Golden Number is...

The Golden Number is the age at which you must come out, or be judged. You calculate it thus:

take the number of cousins you have, multiply by 3.66855, add 7. This number is your Golden Number. If the number of your cousins is more than 2.48 times more than how many siblings you have, then you have to replace the total number of cousins with the number of male cousins you have. It is applicable across all cultures and social situations, no exceptions or excuses.

pattison,
"I think that should be 40 and over, 30 is way to conservative, and as some-one who is over 40. I myself find that a poor excuse, as there is no excuse now, if you live in the free world!"

No he's right and we don't live in a 'free world' like that yet, even now..

DrobUA said
I can understand why anyone would want to save themselves from judgement.

yet you state that you're quick to judge. sounds awfully double standard-y.

before i throw any more stones at this glass house, I'm gonna get off of this thread - for the sole purpose that I'm not sure I want to participate in a forum started by an OP who admits to making quick character judgements based on limited information and also manufactures drama to make "more interesting" conversations.

Ick.

coolarmydude said, "Keep in mind that many gays 30 and older grew up in a time when it was not safe or cool to be out and that has hindered their sense of security to this day."



CAVEAT: Let me also add legal (DADT) as in my situation and thousands of other Americans.

should it not be my choice when i come out, right now im happy. I have lived most of my life not even thinking that i was gay so right now after finding out that being with a man makes me happy in so many ways, Iam confused but i also no that one day i will come out, but i will come out when im ready not when other tell me too. Life is short but u have to make your own choices

I think the earlier, the better, because typically, younger people are more apt to change their beliefs about something (YEAH ALL YOU OLD EFFERS ARE PIGHEADED joking!)

I was, well ,maybe not a "jock" in high school, but i was involed. I played soccer my freshman yr, dove all 4, was the volleyball manager my junior and senior years.... was a cheerleader my senior year (for the competitions, not the football/basketball games), the mascot my junior and senior years... not to mention all the nerdy Student Board, Honors/AP classes, Prom Committee...

I came out to my friends on a Catholic Retreat my junior year... Oh yeah, I went to an all-boys high school. I had NO problems as an openly homosexual teenager in an all boys catholic high school. In fact, I had MORE friends my junior and senior years than I did my freshman/soph yrs (kinda humorous when I think about it.

I think you judging someone because of choices they made is a kin to the parable of Jesus and the woman who he saved from a stoning. How easily we judge, regardless of circumstances, if we think the choice is the wrong one. I'm not saying I am not quick to judge from time-to-time. However, you CAN empathize and understand without agreeing.

How about the openly gay people in Iraq who were recently killed in public for being gay. Would you be so open about your sexuality if it meant you may be killed? Would you be so open if you were in the military and even one person opening their mouth about your sexuality meant your career? I wonder how many of us are so quick to say what we say because of our circumstances. Its one thing to not come to terms with your sexuality. It's another thing to not be open about it. There's many men who prefer to keep what they do behind closed doors to themselves, and more power to them. We shouldn't have a gay mafia on the prowl outing everyone.

Drob -

I do agree that there is no excuse to be closeted any longer.

But in terms of the question...

Too old to be closeted for what exactly? How does this impact your life? Why exactly do you feel the right to judge people who haven't managed to come out of the closet?

Are we trying to say, "Well... I won't date a guy if he's been in the closet past the age of 25?"

That is a somewhat logical position to take. How long a guy under the age of 30 stays in the closet (if for no good reason) can say a lot of things about them.

But it sounds from the original post like you are just being judgmental for the sake of being judgmental. Which is not a particularly huge shock.

"I do agree that there is no excuse to be closeted any longer."

Where? In New York?

COJock1974 said

DrobUA said
I can understand why anyone would want to save themselves from judgement.

yet you state that you're quick to judge. sounds awfully double standard-y.

before i throw any more stones at this glass house, I'm gonna get off of this thread - for the sole purpose that I'm not sure I want to participate in a forum started by an OP who admits to making quick character judgements based on limited information and also manufactures drama to make "more interesting" conversations.

Ick.

First off COJock get off your high horse. Don't act like you don't judge every single person you meet. Everyone does. When I said I automatically judge guys over 25 who are still closeted, what I meant was it is an automatic red flag. I question why. Do I stop talking to them or try to out them? No. You guys are acting like I said all people older than 25 should be forcibly outed. Of course it is your choice as to whether or not you want to come out. Like I said before, the guy I'm seeing isn't out and he has his reasons. Do I have a problem with it? Not really, but I can't imagine living a double life your whole life.

Anto said"I do agree that there is no excuse to be closeted any longer."

Where? In New York?

In the entire First World.


EDIT: Ok... Except of course if you're in the U.S. military.

LOL. It sounds like you do have a problem with it, OP, otherwise you wouldn't have made a post about it. If it wasn't a problem or something for you to be concerned about from the start then red flags wouldn't need to be risen or so would logic dictate.

Guy101 saidLOL. It sounds like you do have a problem with it, OP, otherwise you wouldn't have made a post about it. If it wasn't a problem or something for you to be concerned about from the start then red flags wouldn't need to be risen or so would logic dictate.

Ok let me rephrase again. I have a problem with it in certain circumstances. Guys who are married and cheating. (I don't think there is any excuse for that). Saying that it is a red flag doesn't mean it's a dead end. It means its something to look into. Like I said before I think it is a sign of insecurity or maybe some bigger issues.

You need to reread you own post again (the one at the top) and see why people are coming at you.

The problem seems to be more then people who are married and cheating. If that was the case you would've just targeted married people or people in general who are in relationships who cheat around. You didn't.

DrobUAI'm always lookin for a new reason to get chew'd out so here we go..
I can't lie about the fact that when I see a profile of someone who is still in the closet past age 25 I immediately judge them. Now I don't try to because there could be extenuating circumstances but I think that after your mid-twenties you should be able to come to terms with your sexuality. By that age most people aren't trying to be in the "cool crowd" so I ask myself why keep lying? I see it as a sign of insecurity. I have yet to hear a good reason. I've heard a lot of "I have to be in the closet because of my job". bullshit. Unless you are the NFL's official prostate examiner then I don't see any job where you're job would be a reason to lie about who you are. I also hear "well I'm bi". Congratulations, so am I.... what's that got to do with being in the closet? If you are married and cheating on your wife you are just as pathetic as a straight guy cheating on his wife. If you really love her you'd grow a sack and tell her who you are. If she loves you she will learn to deal with it. I personally have had a girlfriend since coming out as gay. never used it as an excuse to cheat on her. Man up and tell her. She was happy I told her and it helped establish this crazy thing some relationships have. It's called trust. Sorry I was venting. Ok lets have it. How old is too old to be closeted?

You talked about people in general (gay/bi) who weren't out at a certain age of 25. Then you make a bold comparison followed by a personal experience of yours and end it with the question you asked in the beginning.

C'mom dude. Get it together so stuff like this doesn't happen to you.

Haha I am standing by my post. Just not the words you put in my mouth. You are the one that said I had a problem with them. Don't get all butt hurt just because you are insecure.

DrobUA said First off COJock get off your high horse. Don't act like you don't judge every single person you meet. Everyone does.

Interesting, revealing, and not remotely true. I "judge" very few people, partly because that involves getting to know more about them than I would perhaps care to. I disagree with plenty of people---you, for example, nearly always--but that doesn't mean judging.

DrobUA said

pattison said

coolarmydude saidKeep in mind that many gays 30 and older grew up in a time when it was not safe or cool to be out and that has hindered their sense of security to this day.

I think that should be 40 and over, 30 is way to conservative, and as some-one who is over 40. I myself find that a poor excuse, as there is no excuse now, if you live in the free world!

I myself have the appearance of being straight. No acting involved, just being me a regular guy, who also just happens to be a pure homosexual; a fag. But I refuse to live a lie, just for the sake of other peoples feeling. They can't love me very much if they expect me to live a lie.

Also as some-one over 40. Not only did I not wait for it too be safe, to come out. I fort for the rights of homosexuals too, way back when, to be able to be safe and out.

You appear straight.. you must be one of those self loathing guys. (joking but I hear that a lot). i don't think I was hiding the fact that I was trying to hit some nerves. Heated discussions are always more interesting.. I personally have no problem with closeted guys. The guy I'm seeing is closeted. I can understand why anyone would want to save themselves from judgement. I just don't understand how you can go your entire life walking on eggshells. It would drive me nuts.

At your young age, I can understand you having lots of closeted homosexuals around you, and dating one too!

But at my age there just is not dame excuse. These guys that hid their sexuality for all those year, even take a wife, and then when they grow the balls at 50 to come out, they want to now be accepted as a pure homosexual, a true blue gay

I'm also way to old to walk on egg shells, yet via political correctness, we are expected to Good to know you already have the balls to ask what others don't want talked about, and take the abuse you receive for it too. I myself get abused for the same thing and the funny thing is; By people who stand under the banner of being liberal too

Some-one said respect. trouble with respect is it can not be demanded! It has to be earned. There is a reason the gay community as a whole does not have my respect, and I refuse to stand under it's banner. Yet I don't live in the closet, nor am I self loathing.

styrgan,
"In the entire First World."

Do you mean that people should be able to come out in the First World?

LOL. DrobUA, Clearly you don't stand by your post since you keep having to rephrase it and keep shortening it to specifics. Make up your mind.

Dude, you sound way more insecure then I could ever be and since I've never felt insecure on a subject like this I guess that means you win the title. LOL. I was "out and proud" before you were even a glimmer in your daddy's eyes so please don't try to sound big, little man. It's tacky and I'm putting you on blast for having the audacity to even do so.

If you need further convincing of your own insecurities then read your own profile and I encourage others to do so as well to get an good idea of the OP. It speaks volumes.

You hang out with straight guys 99% of the time, huh? So one has to ask when the hell do you find any time to be around a gay person let alone do anything with them? Sounds like you are living on the DL and trying to pass judgment on others. You've got your nerve. HA.

eb925guy said I have a relative that fired an employee of his company for being gay. I was shocked to told him so! Unfortunately it was too late.

Here in Nashville, there was a story in the paper a few days ago about a guy who bought a hotel and immediately fired everyone he suspected was gay because it didn't mesh with his personal religious beliefs.

To some, it seems so anachronistic that people have to worry about being fired for being gay, but in the south it's an every day reality.

Global_Citizen said To some, it seems so anachronistic that people have to worry about being fired for being gay, but in the south it's an every day reality.

Tell me about it.

I personally don't think it has anything to do with age. It's up to the person to find the right time. They may not be comfortable, accepting or even sure of them self. When ever they decided to "be them self", that's the right age/time.

Hey TigerTim, welcome back!!


What you said.

I came out in the '70s in school and was out in my employment in the '80s. We were all encouraged to come out of the closet so people could see that gays where just people. As I left one job after 6 years, the director, who wasnt particularly friendly, told me my career there would have been better if I hadnt been out. I guess the men didnt care for gays and werent about to give one a break.

I remember one incident. This was back before desktops had taken over the offices and data processing was done on main frames. We had like 17 main frames. Somebody was going around drawing cocks and balls on the machines. Everyone suspected it was me, but didnt say anything...I was told this story much later.....until one day a drawing showed up in a secured processing room that I had no access to. The drawings were being made by some straight guy. ....

So I say there is no age that someone should be out. It depends on his life and employment circumstances.

Anto saidstyrgan,
"In the entire First World."

Do you mean that people should be able to come out in the First World?

No First World capitalist nations have laws against homosexuality. Even the level of social acceptance today should not hinder anyone. Even where many regard homosexuals as "sinful" or otherwise, the majority respect us as individuals who are capable of making our own choices about our lifestyle.

We talk a lot on these threads about people discriminating in the work place. And so that would be fine - to refuse to discuss your sexuality with your coworkers (a sort of Don't Ask, Don't Tell). But do you really want to work for an employer who is anti-gay when there are so many companies out there who deeply respect human rights? It's certainly not an excuse to be closeted in your life outside of work.

The biggest reason I've heard in my life is that people don't think their friends and family will accept them. But if you're expectations are true, then they already have not accepted you, and you shouldn't waste your time or your life worrying over what they would think anyway. You should learn how to be selfish.

Guy101 saidLOL. DrobUA, Clearly you don't stand by your post since you keep having to rephrase it and keep shortening it to specifics. Make up your mind.

Dude, you sound way more insecure then I could ever be and since I've never felt insecure on a subject like this I guess that means you win the title. LOL. I was "out and proud" before you were even a glimmer in your daddy's eyes so please don't try to sound big, little man. It's tacky and I'm putting you on blast for having the audacity to even do so.

If you need further convincing of your own insecurities then read your own profile and I encourage others to do so as well to get an good idea of the OP. It speaks volumes.

You hang out with straight guys 99% of the time, huh? So one has to ask when the hell do you find any time to be around a gay person let alone do anything with them? Sounds like you are living on the DL and trying to pass judgment on others. You've got your nerve. HA.

I hang out with straight guys because I have more in common with them. Having straight friends doesn't make me closeted. I have to keep rephrasing because you are picking apart my post and taking things out of context. Not wanting to hang out with bitchy drama queens makes me insecure? ok if you say so.

jprichva said

DrobUA said First off COJock get off your high horse. Don't act like you don't judge every single person you meet. Everyone does.

Interesting, revealing, and not remotely true. I "judge" very few people, partly because that involves getting to know more about them than I would perhaps care to. I disagree with plenty of people---you, for example, nearly always--but that doesn't mean judging.

When I say judge I mean form opinions about someone. Not necessarily negative opinions, which I think is what you guys are interpreting. Everyone automatically forms opinions about everyone they meet. "judging"

DrobUA said When I say judge I mean form opinions about someone. Not necessarily negative opinions, which I think is what you guys are interpreting. Everyone automatically forms opinions about everyone they meet. "judging"

I think you'd be surprised then at how often I have no opinion at all.

styrgan,

No First World capitalist nations have laws against homosexuality.

You mean like gay marriage, adoption, bunch of social ones, or like you said in the military? It wasn't until recently that other anti-gay type of laws have been argued and removed. And yet at the same time, anti-gay laws have been made and set into place.

Also pro-gay laws can mean protection, but they also indicate 'disapproval' exists which needs protecting against.

Even the level of social acceptance today should not hinder anyone. Even where many regard homosexuals as "sinful" or otherwise, the majority respect us as individuals who are capable of making our own choices about our lifestyle.

That is very subjective and varies from area to area and groups of people and it doesn't mean you will be treated with respect or dignity or not be shunned, or even without violence. People can respect 'decisions' you make but that doesn't mean they will treat you as an equal or with equal respect for it.

Choices about our lifestyle, what is that suppose to mean?

We talk a lot on these threads about people discriminating in the work place. And so that would be fine - to refuse to discuss your sexuality with your coworkers (a sort of Don't Ask, Don't Tell). But do you really want to work for an employer who is anti-gay when there are so many companies out there who deeply respect human rights? It's certainly not an excuse to be closeted in your life outside of work.

That doesn't mean much when it comes down to people themselves, which it is ultimately about. For example, Nvidia has statements on their site about respect for diversity and such (lifestyles), but then you have a CEO in it who donated against gay marriage.

And how realistic is it for work to be separated from your outside-of-work life? Anti-gay hostility or treatment happens just for being suspected of being gay, you don't have to be out at all, you don't even have to actually be gay!

The biggest reason I've heard in my life is that people don't think their friends and family will accept them. But if you're expectations are true, then they already have not accepted you, and you shouldn't waste your time or your life worrying over what they would think anyway. You should learn how to be selfish.

Ok listen: Coming to terms with being gay can be hard enough as an individual that is actually gay, how much more harder do you think it is then for people to understand and deal with it who are not actually gay themselves?

Do you understand what I am saying there?

There are two 'victims' when it comes to anti-gay bigotry and hatred, the people subject to the bigotry and hatred, and the people producing it.


Just being selfish doesn't work. As an example, for many people their family is just as much a part of their lives as their own being/self is. You can't just cut that part out or expect people to drop 'it'. This is why it's such a tragedy. For many people that is just not an option because either one on it's own is not sufficient.

It's not an easy situation for many people, with no clear solutions, just degrees of loss and other gay people need to stop acting like it's no big deal or that being out is some magical process that just makes everything all better in the end just because it may have happened as such for themselves.

3

I have question to ask in my strange way have u tried everything do u like all foods have you travel to every country, had all of lifes experences i dont believe anyone would answer yes and if you do then your most likely lieing so in my thinking as im closeted im just going to have another life experence one day

Global_Citizen said

eb925guy said I have a relative that fired an employee of his company for being gay. I was shocked to told him so! Unfortunately it was too late.

Here in Nashville, there was a story in the paper a few days ago about a guy who bought a hotel and immediately fired everyone he suspected was gay because it didn't mesh with his personal religious beliefs.

To some, it seems so anachronistic that people have to worry about being fired for being gay, but in the south it's an every day reality.

It's very sad and one only needs to look as far as JP to hear the real life version! Sucks.

I think being out is fine - it's actually great........providing your livelihood isn't threatened. I'm out to everyone - family and friends - even some clients - but not all clients. If certain clients knew about my sexuality, well, let's just say we wouldn't be doing business - they would kick my ass to the curb - and some straight venture capitalist / realtor would cash in. I'm not letting that happen. I like money - and love to eat! To Hell with those clients - why should I share something about my personal life with them? They aren't worthy enough to have that kind of good news shared with them! I don't call that being closeted - just self-preserving.

Anto saidstyrgan,

No First World capitalist nations have laws against homosexuality.

You mean like gay marriage, adoption, bunch of social ones, or like you said in the military? It wasn't until recently that other anti-gay type of laws have been argued and removed. And yet at the same time, anti-gay laws have been made and set into place.

Also pro-gay laws can mean protection, but they also indicate 'disapproval' exists which needs protecting against.

Even the level of social acceptance today should not hinder anyone. Even where many regard homosexuals as "sinful" or otherwise, the majority respect us as individuals who are capable of making our own choices about our lifestyle.

That is very subjective and varies from area to area and groups of people and it doesn't mean you will be treated with respect or dignity or not be shunned, or even without violence. People can respect 'decisions' you make but that doesn't mean they will treat you as an equal or with equal respect for it.

Choices about our lifestyle, what is that suppose to mean?

We talk a lot on these threads about people discriminating in the work place. And so that would be fine - to refuse to discuss your sexuality with your coworkers (a sort of Don't Ask, Don't Tell). But do you really want to work for an employer who is anti-gay when there are so many companies out there who deeply respect human rights? It's certainly not an excuse to be closeted in your life outside of work.

That doesn't mean much when it comes down to people themselves, which it is ultimately about. For example, Nvidia has statements on their site about respect for diversity and such (lifestyles), but then you have a CEO in it who donated against gay marriage.

And how realistic is it for work to be separated from your outside-of-work life? Anti-gay hostility or treatment happens just for being suspected of being gay, you don't have to be out at all, you don't even have to actually be gay!

The biggest reason I've heard in my life is that people don't think their friends and family will accept them. But if you're expectations are true, then they already have not accepted you, and you shouldn't waste your time or your life worrying over what they would think anyway. You should learn how to be selfish.

Ok listen: Coming to terms with being gay can be hard enough as an individual that is actually gay, how much more harder do you think it is then for people to understand and deal with it who are not actually gay themselves?

Do you understand what I am saying there?

There are two 'victims' when it comes to anti-gay bigotry and hatred, the people subject to the bigotry and hatred, and the people producing it.


Just being selfish doesn't work. As an example, for many people their family is just as much a part of their lives as their own being/self is. You can't just cut that part out or expect people to drop 'it'. This is why it's such a tragedy. For many people that is just not an option because either one on it's own is not sufficient.

It's not an easy situation for many people, with no clear solutions, just degrees of loss and other gay people need to stop acting like it's no big deal or that being out is some magical process that just makes everything all better in the end just because it may have happened as such for themselves.

For starters, when I said that no First World country has laws against homosexuality, I don't mean nonsense like restricting marriage. That is not a law against being gay. A law against being gay is where they execute you or throw you in jail if you are caught sucking dick. Those laws are now unconstitutional and beyond that, have not been enforced for a long time.

You're right that many CEOs do not follow their companies positions on non-discrimination in the workplace. Non-discrimination is simply not enough to consider a company pro-gay. Sponsoring or making significant contributions to gay causes, providing benefits to same-sex partners, and the like make a company pro-gay. And many of those companies exist as well.

You used two examples of being against gay marriage (or supporting the definition of traditional marriage) as being a reason for being closeted. This is a fake excuse. It is not real discrimination. Your livelihood and your life have not really been threatened. You have simply been denied an opportunity that is really quite superfluous. That is not a reason to be cowering someplace.

You are correct that traditional people require time to understand and accept us. And so you should see that being closeted is a waste of that time. You must realize that you are not fostering your acceptance by staying in the closet? The idea that because it's so hard, we're not going to try is a total surrender, and a completely unneeded one.

Finally, I don't deny that coming out is a struggle. I came out when I was 16 in a Catholic high school, and to parents who were less than welcoming of the idea. For a year of my life, I lost many of my childhood friends. My social and family life suffered. I even tried to kill myself. But losing that year was superior to losing five or ten years to a lie, and in the end, I put the pieces back together, and emerged a strong, morally independent person.

If I was strong enough to do it as a teenager, a man shouldn't have a problem.