Gay Uncle Toms

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 10, 2009 8:16 PM GMT
    What do you think of gay people that continue to support institutions such as the Catholic church and other anti-gay groups? Are they similar to a black supporting the KKK, or a jew supporting the nazi party? In others words, are they Gay Uncle Toms?

    This is from a Catholic website:
    "Every human being is called to receive a gift of divine sonship, to become a child of God by grace. However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex. The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law."

    When it comes to same-sex marriage the Catholic church is usually (if not always) working to block it. Gay Youth struggling to accept themselve often come against the teaching of the church which they were rasied. Just about every "gay catholic" I know suffers from this struggle. There are several other examples -- feel free to post them.

    I ask this not as an attack on religion. There are several religious groups which do not oppose homosexuality/gay rights (e.g, United Church of Chirst, Unitarians Universalist, Buddhist, Reform Jews, etc.).

    Does it ,however, make any sense to continue to support something which is working against your and other gay's interest?
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    Apr 10, 2009 8:29 PM GMT

    Ten Foot Pole Pictures, Images and Photos
    AND I'M STILL NOT TOUCHING THIS! Suffice to say, religion is so intimately connected with the mind and the mind is to vast to question gender or sexual preference when it comes to what a person chooses to worship.
    Ummmm, precious, couldn't you have called this thread GAY CATHOLICS! You create a tone I don't think you were meaning to with the Uncle Tom thing. See, Uncle Toms know exactly what they are. This religious stuff, you are going to find yourself pulling back layers and layers to reveal more layers before you can be as black and white as all that. NPI icon_razz.gif
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Apr 10, 2009 9:40 PM GMT
    "What do you think of gay people that continue to support institutions such as the Catholic church and other anti-gay groups? Are they similar to a black supporting the KKK, or a jew supporting the nazi party? In others words, are they Gay Uncle Toms?"

    I think some do it out of hope to be saved because they think being gay is wrong but you know what is kind of funny about the groups you mentioned? They all hate homosexuals lol icon_sad.gif Or they do it because they are supporting other aspects of what they believe in they think are positive even though it comes with bad too. Maybe thinking it will eventually change i guess.

    "However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex."

    What about same-sex arousal and stimulation that is not intended? See it's all BS from the church.

    Did God intend catholic priests to not have sex if he built them as a man with a penis and testicles? Does this mean that catholic priests are not living according to nature by purposely living a lifestyle contrary to reproduction and the furthering of our species?

    Adam and Eve, not Adam! Right? Of course right!

    What if everyone became a priest? The human race would come to an end! Therefore it's wrong to be a priest and choose that lifestyle - you know like them homosexuals!

    See, it's just all a bunch of malarky. An example of a religious argument used against homosexuals used against the religious. Now what?
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    Apr 10, 2009 9:44 PM GMT
    And away we go!
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  • Sebastian18

    Posts: 255

    Apr 10, 2009 9:47 PM GMT
    GuerrillaSodomite saidAnd away we go!
    Photobucket


    I'm with you on this one Guerrilla...
    [img]Photobucket
    PhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucket[/img]
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 10, 2009 10:00 PM GMT
    Oh, can't mention Uncle Tom without mentioning Uncle Ruckus.
  • MattyC0709

    Posts: 1199

    Apr 10, 2009 10:11 PM GMT
    Er... who is Uncle Tom? icon_eek.gificon_confused.gif
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    Apr 10, 2009 10:17 PM GMT
    muttskins saidEr... who is Uncle Tom? icon_eek.gificon_confused.gif


    The short answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom

    "Uncle Tom is a pejorative for an African American who is perceived by others as behaving in a subservient manner to White American authority figures, or as seeking ingratiation with them by way of unnecessary accommodation. The term "Uncle Tom" comes from the title character of Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, although there is debate over whether the character himself is deserving of the pejorative attributed to him. Stowe never meant Uncle Tom to be a derided character, but the term as a pejorative has developed based on how later versions of the character, stripped of his strength, were depicted on stage."
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    Apr 10, 2009 10:18 PM GMT
    phemt saidWhat do you think of gay people that continue to support institutions such as the Catholic church and other anti-gay groups?

    I think they are fools. But the reason is surprisingly simple. Gays are terribly unsophisticated, even ignorant, when it comes to protecting their own interests. They always have been, they always will be, and it occurs so naturally that an argument could be made that it is a corollary of the genetics that make us gay in the first place.

    Fact:

    - Gays cannot organize. The phrase "like herding cats" was invented with us in mind.

    - Gays lack self-confidence. They cannot stand up to social institutions like the Catholic Church because they can't stand up to their own shadows.

    - Gays are addicted to fighting each other. Being easy targets who lack self-confidence (see above), they attack each other rather than their actual enemies, which would require a pair of balls.

    - Gays crave acceptance, because they suffer from constant rejection. They will humble themselves to be accepted, join churches that don't want them, become Log Cabin Republicans in a political party that wants to outlaw them.
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    Apr 10, 2009 10:42 PM GMT
    I loved that superbowl commercial from years ago about herding cats.

    Cat Herding - Funny video clips are a click away
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Apr 11, 2009 5:51 AM GMT
    All I did was break the ice! Ice that was made by freezing holy water!
  • imperator

    Posts: 626

    Apr 11, 2009 8:46 AM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    phemt saidWhat do you think of gay people that continue to support institutions such as the Catholic church and other anti-gay groups?

    I think they are fools. But the reason is surprisingly simple. Gays are terribly unsophisticated, even ignorant, when it comes to protecting their own interests. They always have been, they always will be, and it occurs so naturally that an argument could be made that it is a corollary of the genetics that make us gay in the first place.

    Fact:

    - Gays cannot organize. The phrase "like herding cats" was invented with us in mind.

    - Gays lack self-confidence. They cannot stand up to social institutions like the Catholic Church because they can't stand up to their own shadows.

    - Gays are addicted to fighting each other. Being easy targets who lack self-confidence (see above), they attack each other rather than their actual enemies, which would require a pair of balls.

    - Gays crave acceptance, because they suffer from constant rejection. They will humble themselves to be accepted, join churches that don't want them, become Log Cabin Republicans in a political party that wants to outlaw them.



    Holy generalizations, Batman! I hope some sarcasm-- or at least room for exceptions-- was intended in all those broad, monochromatic strokes. Because just speaking for my own self, that's bullcrap. Wait... I *might* have to concede point #1 because the foolproof formula for organizing a minority that skews every other range of demographic 'dichotomies' is pretty tricky. But as to the rest-- no self-esteem, reflexive in-fighting and shameless pandering-- yeah, I'm sure I'm not the only one willing to call "bullcrap" and challenge those charges.
  • MattyC0709

    Posts: 1199

    Apr 11, 2009 10:16 AM GMT
    phemt saidDoes it ,however, make any sense to continue to support something which is working against your and other gay's interest?

    I ask myself the very same thing everytime I go to mass or do any other religious duties. I don't really take it out on religion though... I take it out on the Church/Vatican instead. Sure it says in the Bible that homosexual acts are not allowed, but in the end I don't think God hates gays. Though yesterday a friend told me that in the Bible, Jesus had apparently come across a few gay people and he viewed them in dim light. icon_confused.gif I don't know if that's is true.
  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Apr 11, 2009 10:30 AM GMT
    "Love the sinner, hate the sin"

    That's the Catholic viewpoint. Catholics accept gay people, they do not hate them. "Some persons find themselves through no fault of their own to have a homosexual orientation. Homosexuals, like everyone else, should not suffer from prejudice against their basic human rights. They have a right to respect, friendship, and justice."- Catholic bishop

    The catch is, you're not allowed to have gay sex. No physical actions with another man, or it crosses over to a sin.

    So, it's still horse shit, just slightly nicer horse shit. I would consider it a basic human right to have sex with someone you love.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 11, 2009 11:29 AM GMT
    imperator said I *might* have to concede [your] point #1 because the foolproof formula for organizing a minority that skews every other range of demographic 'dichotomies' is pretty tricky. But as to the rest-- no self-esteem, reflexive in-fighting and shameless pandering-- yeah, I'm sure I'm not the only one willing to call "bullcrap" and challenge those charges.

    That wasn't my point. You ascribe a lack of group coherence to the diversity of the group, rather than to the individuals themselves. I contend that gays are fundamentally prone to selfish goals and "do not work well with others" to use the HR phrase. When I said "herding cats" I meant that analogy exactly, because cats behave like cats, not because their coats happen to have different markings from each other.

    But I do like how you summarized my other points very succinctly, even if you disagree with them: "no self-esteem, reflexive in-fighting and shameless pandering" describes much of the gay community very accurately.
  • a2507

    Posts: 152

    Apr 11, 2009 1:14 PM GMT

    That's the Catholic viewpoint. Catholics accept gay people, they do not hate them. "Some persons find themselves through no fault of their own to have a homosexual orientation. Homosexuals, like everyone else, should not suffer from prejudice against their basic human rights. They have a right to respect, friendship, and justice."- Catholic bishop



    What I find interesting is the notable failure of the Church of Rome to fund or fight for the position stated above. It follows that if this denomination of the Church believes that LGBT people have fundamental rights and that we should experience "justice," that Bishops and the Holy Father should be first in supporting job non-discrimination statutes, etc. if not marriage rights.

    But what I've observed is that RC leaders are frequently first to oppose civil rights protections. The position above seems to exist so that RC folk can tell themselves that they don't hate while they continue to discriminate. I don't know that the net effect is much different than the Baptists who just hate us and also discriminate.

    PS: re: Muttskin's friend and "Jesus not liking gays in the Bible": to the best of my knowledge, Christ never comments on homosexuality at all and it was common in the Roman world around him. He does condemn divorce many times however. CNN recently reported that Newt Gingrich, former Republican US House of Representatives leader, just converted to Catholicism for his 3rd wife. The RC church conveniently annulled his first two marriages. hmm.

    The Biblical injunctions regarding homosexuality are either Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) or limited to Saint Paul. Since Paul also sanctioned slavery, a position not held today by any reputable church leader or biblical scholar, it seems that Christians can pick and chose. Those who chose to use the Bible to condemn LGBT folk start with their prejudice and work backwards.
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    Apr 11, 2009 1:18 PM GMT
    Gays should work from inside the Catholic church to reform it.
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    Apr 11, 2009 1:23 PM GMT
    GuerrillaSodomite saidAnd away we go!
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    I love the cat....so I had to do this. Meow.
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Apr 11, 2009 1:26 PM GMT
    Well there may be several reasons why a person may justify it in their own mind....

    1. What the organization might have personally done to touch their own life or the life of family members or close friends. What that organization may have done might outweigh the anti-gay views that the organization my hold
    in the eyes of the supporter.

    2. Long held need to support: Personally I could justify #1 more than this, but there are some people that support an organization or church because "it has always been supported" by family members.. and it is expected to continue.


    3. Employment based: It may be that the gay individual may work for an organization directly (thus support) or be employed by an employer that supports another organization that has antigay views.

    4. Place of residence: Probably less possible, but a gay person may live in an area that may benefit an antigay organization and would thus be supporting the organization without doing so conciously,
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    Apr 11, 2009 1:34 PM GMT
    The whole idea of religion is silly. It is like saying I believe in UFO's. I believe in little green men. I believe that something outside my life controls my life. Religious believers are no different than believers in UFO's. No proof. Just beliefs. No basis.

  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Apr 11, 2009 2:07 PM GMT
    Triggerman saidThe whole idea of religion is silly. It is like saying I believe in UFO's. I believe in little green men. I believe that something outside my life controls my life. Religious believers are no different than believers in UFO's. No proof. Just beliefs. No basis.



    Well, there is no proof, but they have faith, and therefore believe. If there was proof of one religion's beliefs being true, wouldn't everyone subscribe to that one religion?

    And btw, I think UFOs are FAR more likely to be true than many religious beliefs.
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    Apr 11, 2009 2:42 PM GMT



    We're both ex-Catholics, but would like to remind everyone that the more open-minded, compassionate, tolerant, equality loving, intelligent and true christian people that belong to a church, the more that church will experience change from within.
    You think the church is bad now?
    If ALL the kind open-minded, tolerant, accepting, equality-minded intelligent people left a church, all that would be left would be the nasties, of which there is no short supply of anywhere.

    Many that belong to the Catholic church have relatives that are gay, and slowly, the church leaders are realizing that it's a lot more than just gays they're targeting. That Pope hasn't met my Mom. heheh. Yet.

    -Doug

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    Apr 12, 2009 12:33 AM GMT
    meninlove said


    We're both ex-Catholics, but would like to remind everyone that the more open-minded, compassionate, tolerant, equality loving, intelligent and true christian people that belong to a church, the more that church will experience change from within.
    You think the church is bad now?
    If ALL the kind open-minded, tolerant, accepting, equality-minded intelligent people left a church, all that would be left would be the nasties, of which there is no short supply of anywhere.

    Many that belong to the Catholic church have relatives that are gay, and slowly, the church leaders are realizing that it's a lot more than just gays they're targeting. That Pope hasn't met my Mom. heheh. Yet.

    -Doug



    How about if all those "...accepting, equality-minded people" left an "intolerant, unaccepting, unequality-minded church" church for one in line with their vaules. I know several str8 people that have left the Catholic and other such churches because of the those churches anti-progressive views. It is just sad seeing gay people going against their interests. If you want to belong to a religious group wouldn't it make more sence to support one that is already supporting our interests (e.g. United Church of Church, Unitarian Universalist, Reform Jews etc.) or at least one that is on the tipping point (e.g. Methodist or Episcoplalian) than one that is kicking and screaming against us (e.g. Catholic)?

    Why should one cent or one moment of your time go to work against full acceptance of homosexuality!!!!
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    Apr 12, 2009 12:57 AM GMT
    As a side note the same point could be made for women rights as well: why support a church that works against the rights of women or think women are unworthy of preaching compared to men.
  • dantoujours

    Posts: 378

    Apr 12, 2009 1:52 AM GMT
    Off topic: The Episcopal church passed the tipping point many years ago. The noisy right-wing represents no more than about 5% of the membership. About 200 out of 7100 U.S. parishes (and 12 of 2300 Canadian parishes) have tried to leave the church. The right-wing knows they have lost but want to make life as miserable for the rest of us as life is for them. They get disproportionate press coverage because the press loves controversy.

    I go to a church with a gay priest who has been in a relationship with another man for 10 years. Everyone considers them a family like every other one. Our new bishop not only supports gay clergy but wants all of them to get married/civil unioned so that people take them as seriously as straight married clergy.

    On topic: The difference here is that the sole reason for the Nazis and KKK were established were to wipe out non-White people and establish a planet ruled by Caucasians. The Roman Catholic Church exists to put people in connection with God through the sacraments of Holy Baptism and the Eucharist. The RCC hierarchy has some pretty screwy policies on sexuality which gay people naturally focus on, but if you read what they have written about protecting the environment, helping the poor, ethical business practises, opposing the death penalty, condemning unjustifiable war and other economic and social justice matters, you might agree with them.

    http://www.thesocialagenda.org/

    I know a lot of gay and gay-friendly straight Catholics and most people in the pews are pretty progressive too. For them, the church is a means to an end, which is a connection with God. What the hierarchy says on sexuality issues isn't that important to them. Most Catholics I know think this Pope is a disaster and will be transitional figure for someone more in touch with modern society.

    I am glad they are there because they are the ones who teach gay Catholic kids to love themselves and help others struggling with their sexuality to accept it. If they weren't there, a lot of people would be hurt.