Spinoff: Gay Standards, Are We the Sheep or The Sheperds?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 11, 2009 10:59 PM GMT
    I wrote this on the other thread:

    People will always like what they like, but that doesn't mean the gay world has to be dictated to. Think of how many white guys who are porn stars are unhappy because they too are held to a standard they can't meet?

    Everyone can think of a hot guy that they know that feels insecure. Unless and until we challenge what we're presented with, we're all going to suffer. Maybe my mistake was limiting it to race, as someone said, there are fat gay people as well. If we have real representations of people then all of us can be happier with who we are, black, white, young, old, gay, asian, bisexual or trans.

    Some may think that it's just the industry responding to demand, but if it's not clear already, I don't buy that. I think they are driving us and not the other way around.


    So let's broaden the discussion. What are your thoughts? Who's leading whom and can anything be done about it? And I AM not talking about race explicitly. I'm talking about body type, youth, masculinity, partying, drugs, sex. Do we live in a Queer as Folk world or is Queer as Folk making us strive to act like that? (In other words which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

    I know, I know.... this is heavier than the typical RJ fare, but we can all contribute!
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    Apr 11, 2009 11:09 PM GMT
    lolcat-art-marianne-goldin.jpg




    OMG I´m turning into Calson.
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    Apr 11, 2009 11:16 PM GMT
    I blame Thatcher-Reagan capitalism rather than gay culture for making people overly competitive and feel shit about themselves.

    It's important to remember though, that loads and loads (most?) people just get on with their lives, without fretting over what they look like/how wealthy they are/ or whether they've got enough mates on Facebook.
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    Apr 12, 2009 5:44 AM GMT
    I think that our demands drive what kind of porn is produced. Smart porn producers just pick up on it and amplify it like cigarette makers have been guilty of with addictive chemicals. The porn producers I know of kind of know what the people want. I am not saying porn is wrong or anything, but our own desire for perfection can hurt our chance at happiness.

    I have to say also, regarding guys who have done porn, that I think they do it for their own reasons. One I know was insecure already and doing porn kind of stroked his ego. Also to be blunt, he wanted to get to have sex with other hot guys .. in other words it was pretty much a fantasy for him.

    As far as problems like insecurity and addiction, we just have to figure it out and work on ourselves. Part of that means being kind and compassionate to other Gays because we have enough condemnation from many anti-gay types. There are even anti-gay gays! icon_eek.gif All that negativity piles up so we have to do our own part to break the cycle. When we judge other gay people by their appearance we really are lashing out at our own insecurities and end up hurting ourselves.

    I also think as society lightens up on Gays, it will be a little easier for us to be good to each other
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    Apr 12, 2009 5:49 AM GMT
    I feel oddly left out of this.. this.. thing..

    why am I secure and happy when everyone else gets to be insecure and riddled with doubt and complexes??

    DAMN IT I WANT A COMPLEX

    *hums and paints smile faces on people*
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    Apr 12, 2009 6:11 AM GMT
    I STILL SAY LIKE THE LAST POST STATED....

    WHO FUCKING CARES? I TRIED TILL AFTER THE SECOND SENTENCE, SORRY
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    Apr 12, 2009 10:34 AM GMT
    ActiveandFitI think that our demands drive what kind of porn is produced.


    Yes. But...

    Don't get me wrong, I love mainstream gay porn, it's how I realised I was gay.

    It does only present ONE way of being sexy though and that way doesn't really include being black or Asian. Similarly there's an emphasis on one body type, waxed and tanned.

    There's no one in mainstream porn over thirty, most of the guys are college age.

    So YES, white Sean Cody types are sexy as hell, but it's not the only way of being hot.

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    Apr 12, 2009 11:27 AM GMT
    We are the shepard. Isn't that Economics 101? I dunno I hate economics lol

    We control the markets... it gets mor complicated when advertisers or tv shows add eye candy into the mix.

    Look at all the bad press A&Fgot from selling shirts with demeaning Asian stereotypes on them. From what I remember they took those shirts off the shelves,,, and they have now become more inclusive in their models.

    Like I said in the other thread.... the public isn't going to get rallid up over every single issue out there... we'd all die from exhaustion fighting all the injustice in the world.

    If yoou think the advertising companies are biased about what they presnt as "good-looking" to the rest of the country... do something about it! Organize something.

    But I do not think you argument is completely correct. I grew up in the whitest state in the nation. I have never had a non-white friend. (Well actually in grade school through jr. high I was very good friends with an Indian descent guy [not native American]. He moved away before high school thoughicon_cry.gif ) In high school, I shopped at all the "cool" store with predominately white models.

    Your theory fails when it comes to my sister and me. She dated a black guy, and I thin you, 26 are hot. Shouldn't we solely be attracted to or only attracted to white people cause that is all we have been around?

    I think you don't give people enough credit and have been hurt in the past... which is why you are so passionate about this issue. But your experiences may also be because of where you were brought up, who brought you up, and they views you have been around all your life.

    So, think A & F is wrong in the way the advertise? Organize something. Give me data and evidenc to look at. survey people and do proper statiscal analysis on how advertising white only models or tv shows affects how the country views non-whites. You may change some minds here... but it seem like you want more?
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    Apr 12, 2009 11:37 AM GMT
    twentysixpoint2 said
    Some may think that it's just the industry responding to demand, but if it's not clear already, I don't buy that. I think they are driving us and not the other way around.


    If Armani started selling hats like this:

    2355663488_34fb68fd02.jpg?v=0

    Do you think people would buy it is a hot white male model wore it? I wouldn't


    Perhaps the control is not a linear relationship... but rather a circle. We influence the advertisers in some ways--they influence us in some ways.
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    Apr 12, 2009 11:39 AM GMT
    cjcscubaWe control the markets


    Oh right. I'd forgotten that capitalism and democracy were identical. icon_wink.gif

    Or do you think there might be a tension there?
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    Apr 12, 2009 11:53 AM GMT
    Lost_And_Found said
    cjcscubaWe control the markets


    Oh right. I'd forgotten that capitalism and democracy were identical. icon_wink.gif

    Or do you think there might be a tension there?


    Psst... read the post above your post icon_smile.gif
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    Apr 12, 2009 12:05 PM GMT
    dolce_gabbana.jpg

    Do women have as much market control as men?

    Or is there a tension between capitalism and democracy?
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    Apr 12, 2009 1:24 PM GMT
    Lost_And_Found said
    ActiveandFitI think that our demands drive what kind of porn is produced.


    Yes. But...

    Don't get me wrong, I love mainstream gay porn, it's how I realised I was gay.


    Never knew there was such a thing as mainstream porn icon_wink.gif Especially in porn I think that most (but not all) tastes are served.

    Anyhoodle, it is gay advertising that cements the white, thin, ripped twink image as beauty ideal and where latinos (yes, they are white too) are as "exotic" as it gets. I can totally understand that non-white gay men don't feel represented and will not consider themselves beautiful. That is until they meet other gay men and get a taste of how desirable they really are. Question is how long it takes for them to fully realize that they are beautiful, too or whether they always carry the 'only-whites-are-beautiful' mindset with them.
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    Apr 12, 2009 1:46 PM GMT
    berndNever knew there was such a thing as mainstream porn Especially in porn I think that most (but not all) tastes are served.

    Anyhoodle, it is gay advertising that cements the white, thin, ripped twink image as beauty ideal


    I can't honestly see a distinction between 'Calvin Klein' and 'Corbin Fisher' other than the Calivin Klein models don't get their cocks out. icon_wink.gif

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    Apr 12, 2009 1:46 PM GMT
    CJC,

    You don't get it still. You say my theory fails in regard to yourself. I hope you realize that, as with most things, there are always outliers. And I had hoped to decouple race from this thread and broaden it. I feel as if you say, well me experience is this and therefore you're wrong. I am speaking of what passes as mainstream gay culture. You may not have bought into it, but it doesn't mean that there aren't aspects that are damaging.

    What do I mean? How about the need to look good that drives many gay men to the gym? The emphasis on being thin? On being masculine? On smooth guys and of course promiscuous sex? Would a gay mag that doesn't emphasis sex survive?

    Let me reiterate: I think that the powers that be are sheep. I think they're afraid to use say older models, hairier models or whatever because they think that's what the consumer wants. I find it ironic as I'm sure the ones who are in a position to change this don't look like what they serve up as the gay ideal. I wonder why that is.

    Actually I think I've got it. They realize that by selling an image that they hope most will aspire to, they can keep selling their product. As for your hat pic, I do believe that with the right marketing something as ugly as that will fly off the shelves.

    Liltanker:

    I don't know what your age is, but I wish you'd grow up.

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    Apr 12, 2009 1:47 PM GMT
    Lost_And_Found said
    berndNever knew there was such a thing as mainstream porn Especially in porn I think that most (but not all) tastes are served.

    Anyhoodle, it is gay advertising that cements the white, thin, ripped twink image as beauty ideal


    I can't honestly see a distinction between 'Calvin Klein' and 'Corbin Fisher' other than the Calivin Klein models don't get their cocks out. icon_wink.gif



    That is a difference. And makes Corbin Fisher so much hotter

    578040
  • HndsmKansan

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    Apr 12, 2009 1:56 PM GMT
    I think its a combination. I think that those who market "trends" react to what the consumer will buy, what the consumer wants, what will get attention and will lead to "a reaction", which generally mean the spending of money.

    Trends beget trends....demand for one thing, brings about additional demand, additional hunger and the industry (whatever industry... clothing, beauty products, porn, fashion) responds. The problem herein lies that each of us (individually) will view these changes differently and certainly some of us will view the changes in trends with distaste, disfavor or skepticism.
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    Apr 12, 2009 2:03 PM GMT


    ...ohgodit'susagain! heheh

    This kind of conundrum has been ongoing in straight society with women. Thin emaciated models held up as a standard by the fashion industry. Now women are standing up en mass and saying it's unrealistic and unhealthy.

    As for porn, well we don't watch the stuff (more fun doing our own with each other. And no we're not camming any of it because at our ages we'd likely scare some of you to death or emotionally scar you.icon_lol.gif
    Twentysix, you said, "I know, I know.... this is heavier than the typical RJ fare, but we can all contribute!"

    Don't be thinking that, as this forum is not the fitness forums, of which there are many. There have been lots of 'heavy' subjects discussed in the past here.




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    Apr 12, 2009 3:54 PM GMT
    This thread has confused me regarding the meaning of the phrase "sheep or shepherds" as it may apply to gay men. I've read stuff here about gay porno and other things that I would have thought were unrelated.

    So I'll just throw this out randomly, prepared to receive incoming hostile fire.

    Gays are society's shepherds when it comes to matters of art & style. We are sheep when it comes to matters of politics & leadership.

    We gays are etherial & magical, while others are practical & mundane. As humans we should be neither sheep nor shepherds, but equal aspects of a wonderful spectrum of possibilities.

    Together we could make such a Heaven on Earth as has never been seen, but we seem to be at war with each other. If I knew how to resolve these irrational conflicts I would be honored down through history.
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    Apr 12, 2009 4:03 PM GMT
    twentysixpoint2 saidI wrote this on the other thread:

    People will always like what they like, but that doesn't mean the gay world has to be dictated to. Think of how many white guys who are porn stars are unhappy because they too are held to a standard they can't meet?

    Everyone can think of a hot guy that they know that feels insecure. Unless and until we challenge what we're presented with, we're all going to suffer. Maybe my mistake was limiting it to race, as someone said, there are fat gay people as well. If we have real representations of people then all of us can be happier with who we are, black, white, young, old, gay, asian, bisexual or trans.

    Some may think that it's just the industry responding to demand, but if it's not clear already, I don't buy that. I think they are driving us and not the other way around.


    So let's broaden the discussion. What are your thoughts? Who's leading whom and can anything be done about it? And I AM not talking about race explicitly. I'm talking about body type, youth, masculinity, partying, drugs, sex. Do we live in a Queer as Folk world or is Queer as Folk making us strive to act like that? (In other words which came first, the chicken or the egg?)

    I know, I know.... this is heavier than the typical RJ fare, but we can all contribute!


    And just how many porn stars do you know?
    And further more which are you, sheep or shepard?
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    Apr 12, 2009 4:04 PM GMT
    Lostboy said
    Lost_And_Found said
    berndNever knew there was such a thing as mainstream porn Especially in porn I think that most (but not all) tastes are served.

    Anyhoodle, it is gay advertising that cements the white, thin, ripped twink image as beauty ideal


    I can't honestly see a distinction between 'Calvin Klein' and 'Corbin Fisher' other than the Calivin Klein models don't get their cocks out. icon_wink.gif



    That is a difference. And makes Corbin Fisher so much hotter

    578040


    hahaha, oh that.

    pork.jpg
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    Apr 12, 2009 4:36 PM GMT
    Lost_And_Found said

    I can't honestly see a distinction between 'Calvin Klein' and 'Corbin Fisher' other than the Calivin Klein models don't get their cocks out. icon_wink.gif


    That is my point, l&f. There are more porn-sites out there that cater to all kinds of preferences, than there are underwear-brands that advertise on a national level.
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    Apr 12, 2009 4:43 PM GMT
    Perhaps I'm underestimating how important leather and kink is amongst gays.

    I do think there is such a thing as 'mainstream' gay culture though, and I also think there's a continuum from Corbin Fisher to Abercrombie and Fitch.

    Both have got a product to sell. icon_wink.gif

    Both Corbin Fisher and Abercrombie and Fitch are very, very hot, but they're also both a little, you know, Aryan.
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    Apr 12, 2009 5:02 PM GMT
    What happened to the main thread?

    icon_sad.gif
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    Apr 12, 2009 5:05 PM GMT
    We apparently are Sheep & shepherd, as well as

    pigs
    chicken
    hawks
    otters
    bears
    cubs- don' tknow if they are supposed to be lions, tigers or bears.
    seals
    rats
    dogs