Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people. (Judaism is a religion, Jews are an ethnic group)

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    Apr 17, 2009 3:38 AM GMT
    Since the usual suspects keep trying to push their racist agenda in various other topics (and since the topic dedicated to this subject was deleted by the author), I'm posting this under its own cover.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familycohanim.html

    || Genetic studies among Cohanim [Jewish priests] from all over the world reveal the truth behind this [Jewish] oral tradition. About 50 percent of Cohanim in both Sephardic [eastern] and Ashkenazic [western Jewish] populations have an unusual set of genetic markers on their Y chromosome. What is equally striking is that this genetic signature of the Cohanim is rarely found outside of Jewish populations.

    || The evidence suggests the Cohanim chromosomes coalesce at a date that corresponds with when the priesthood is thought to have begun ["about 3,000 years ago"].


    www.med.nyu.edu/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html

    || Despite 2000 years of Diaspora, the relatedness of the Jews of Eastern European ("Ashkenazi"), North African ("Sephardic") and Middle Eastern ("Oriental") origin can be demonstrated by genetic marker analysis.... Virtually all Jews came from the Middle East as evidenced by the clustering of their Y chromosomal haplotypes


    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=11573163

    || the majority of contemporary Jews descended from the ancient Israelites that had lived in the historic land of Israel until ~2000 years ago. ...neither Ashkenazi nor Sephardic Jews cluster adjacent to their former host populations, a finding that argues against substantial admixture of males. These findings are in accordance with those described by Hammer et al. (2000).

    || The study demonstrates that the Y chromosome pool of Jews is an integral part of the genetic landscape of the region and, in particular, that Jews exhibit a high degree of genetic affinity to populations living in the north of the Fertile Crescent.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html?emc=eta1

    || A study by Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona showed five years ago that the men in many Jewish communities around the world bore Y chromosomes that were Middle Eastern in origin. This finding is widely accepted by geneticists....

    || Until now, it had been widely assumed by geneticists that the Ashkenazi communities of Northern and Central Europe were founded by men who came from the Middle East, perhaps as traders, and by the women from each local population whom they took as wives and converted to Judaism.

    || But the new study, published online this week in The American Journal of Human Genetics, suggests that the men and their wives migrated to Europe together.
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    Apr 17, 2009 3:39 AM GMT
    drfishman> i find it strange that i get called an antisemite when i say "europeans of jewish faith"

    Because it is racist, and intentionally so.

    It's like refusing to call Irish people by name and saying that they are Europeans of Catholic faith.

    You devised this awkward construct purposely in order to deny Jews their ethnicity.
    For political reasons.

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    Apr 17, 2009 3:48 AM GMT
    samerphx> many people convert to Judaism

    Really? How many per year?


    SP> I don't think they are Jews from the Bible time

    The scientific/genetic/DNA evidence is in.
    But for political reasons, you choose to ignore it.

    Par for the course of your reversals of causality and the scientific method where "conclusions" determine "facts" rather than building a proper model on the best available data.


    SP> Now they call it ethnicity because they all speak modern Hebrew, write Hebrew and listen to Hebrew.

    What do you mean "now"?!


    SP> You'll notice the modern day Hebrew is not the same as ancient old Hebrew (the old Palestinian language.)

    Really? Strange, isn't it, that I can sit down with the Bible, written some 3,000 years ago (before the word "Palestine" was first used) and I can understand it.


    SP> Modern Hebrew mixed with some Yiddish and Palestinian Arabic.

    First, Yiddish is a mixture of German and Hebrew. But more importantly, I'm not sure that there are more than 10-20 words of Yiddish or Arabic that have made it into common parlance in Israel (though not into the official language; like with French, there is a language commission).


    SP> There is a book called Palestinian Talmud was written by Palestinian Jews.

    In Hebrew, it is known as "Talmud Yerushalmi" (Jerusalem Talmud) or "Talmud de-Eretz Yisrael" (Israeli Talmud).- as in English it is generally referenced as the "Jerusalem Talmud". Leave it to Samer to convolute that, too, for political reasons.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Talmud

    Edit: "Talmud d-Eretz Yisrael" translates as "Palestinian Talmud" given that prior to the middle of the 19th century, "Palestine" was the Latin/European name for Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish homeland (there was never in history an Arab country of that name nor such a people)


    SP> Being Jewish is not a race because Jews do not share one common ancestry or biological distinction

    FAIL. See OP.
    (How many more times will you "forget" this data because it is inconvenient to your notions, what you want to believe?)


    SP> Being Jewish is not a nationality because Jews have been dispersed throughout the world for almost two thousand years

    So? Irish people have also been dispersed. If they were ostracized wherever they are around the world, mostly marry within the group... when do they stop being Irish?!

    And, more importantly, why would the Irish people who remained in Ireland lose their ethnic identity because others are in the Irish diaspora?

    The fact that you speak of the Jewish diaspora undermines your argument.
    (Christians can also be found all over the world, but no one calls it a "Christian diaspora".)


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    Apr 17, 2009 3:59 AM GMT
    Thats nice.
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    Apr 17, 2009 4:07 AM GMT
    I fear that set theory is beyond the mathematical abilities of some RJers, but let me explain this in a way that I think most 3rd graders would understand.

    Set 1: Judaism, a religion.
    Set 2: Jews, a nation of people or ethnic group.

    Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people.

    The problem is that the word "Jew" refers to a member of either set. The reason for this is that for thousands of years the overlap (intersection) between these two groups was nearly 100%.

    In the 20th century, it became possible for Jews to assimilate into their host population (turned out not to work very well in Europe around 1940, where Jews whose parents, even grand-parents, had converted to Christianity nonetheless found themselves in cattle cars bound for the gas chambers). Religion was also somewhat in decline, with Jews (such as myself) identifying as atheists. Nonetheless I'd venture that 90% of the nation of Jews are Judaic (the religion) to some degree.


    drfishman has previously made objections based on "purity" (his word!) and above Samer makes reference to people who convert to Judaism.

    drfishman's argument is a variation of the racist "one drop rule". If someone has 8 great grandparents and 1 is black and the rest white, the person is "black" because he has "one drop" of black blood and is no longer a "pure" white person. DF perverts this the other way. If someone has 1 non-Jewish great-grandparent (but the other 7 are), that person is no longer a "pure" Jew. That is, if a Jew has "one drop" of non-Jewish blood... he is no longer Jewish.

    Throughout history, most people who have converted to Judaism have done so because they were marrying a Jewish person. I don't share DF's obssession about "racial purity", but let's go through the math. The convert will have children who are half Jewish. Those children will marry other Jews and thus the grandchildren will be 75% Jewish. The next generations are 87.5%, 93.75% and 97% Jewish (genetically). But for DF, our resident racist, this person isn't Jewish at all.


    If people think of their own experiences, of people they know or have talked to, I think they'll recognize the truth and validity of what I say. How many of you know people who are "half Jewish"? That makes sense only regarding ethnicity, not religion (it's not like someone can be half-Christian or half-Muslim).


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    Apr 17, 2009 4:12 AM GMT
    Yet another pointless topic that has absolutely nothing to do with "Gay News & Events"

    Ethnicity is a social construct and does not require a genetic basis, even if there are some interesting relics to be found in genes (remembering that we as humans exhibit typical diversity of 1 in 1000 base pairs).

    Judaism is manifestly a religion. It is also manifestly an ethnicity. That word is not very meaningful. I can see very little of interest to be drawn from this. Ethnicity is pretty much useless for the justification of .... well, anything.
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    Apr 17, 2009 4:18 AM GMT
    Obviously samerphx and drfishman think they have something (political) to gain by denying Jewish ethnicity (but not, say, Irish ehthnicity).

    (And there are many topics on RJ which have nothing to do with Gay issues, including, for one example, airlines charging obese people for 2 seats, etc. If a topic doesn't interest someone they should ignore it. It's not like there's a quota on topics and the entry of one denies another one a chance... just like gay marriage doesn't threaten or preclude straight marriage! (: )
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    Apr 17, 2009 4:24 AM GMT
    Well I just read the debate on the other thread that you're referring to and yes it is *truly* moronic.

    I still don't see why you started a new thread though. This really has nothing to do with Gay News and Events, does it?

    Frankly, these Israel threads were some that have most shaken my belief in the value of online discussion and even my faith in the fundamentally good nature of people.

    I have no idea what either of you gain, except a channel for your mutual dislike. It is most ugly.

    That is why I wish you would cease.
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    Apr 17, 2009 4:29 AM GMT
    Back in the day a troll was an ugly old guy. That was a perfectly good use for the word, but now they call us old creepers. You know why? Because now a troll "is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion." (wikipdedia)
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    Apr 17, 2009 4:33 AM GMT
    samerphx said...And when someone say "European of Jewish faith" is not racist.


    It is racist because it denies them the right to self-identify.
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    Apr 17, 2009 4:36 AM GMT
    I'm sure few were expecting a substantive post from samerphx.

    Tell us, Samer, do you refer to Irish people as "Europeans of Catholic faith", too?
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    Apr 17, 2009 4:40 AM GMT
    Look how samerphx won't answer the question:

    C4> Samer, do you refer to Irish people as "Europeans of Catholic faith", too?

    SP> Europeans are found in many religions.

    So do you call Irish people "Irish" or "Europeans of Catholic faith"?

    He himself knows what he is saying is racist, but he does it for the cause.
    (Just like he believes in lying-for-the-cause.)
  • ROYCE13

    Posts: 315

    Apr 17, 2009 5:00 AM GMT
    Irish people of the Catholic Faith and Irish people of the Protestant Faith are both ok. European of the Jewish Faith is used often, usually one sees it broken down though for example, Eastern European verses Western when discussing differences in culture of religious practices. I am not speaking for the two guys that you are referring to and did not read the other thread (Just logged on) I was trying to figure out the purpose of the thread. However, you are stating things like you are speaking for them, and I do not think you really are. I am not Jewish, but have been raised with Jews in NYC, Detroit, Sarasota, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Paris, France, so I know a lot of about them, and it is actually more controversial in a thread because of the broad spectrum of the Jewish faith and the troubles they are facing all over the world in the faith. I do not really think that a thread of religion is unappropriate on RJ since it is a gay lifestyle and religion and politics are part of gay peoples lives.
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    Apr 17, 2009 5:11 AM GMT
    samerphx> European Jews, Spanish Jews, Chinese Jews, Black-African Jews are all Middle Easterners? I know Chinese and Black-Africans people don't look Middle Easterners

    ROTFL. Samer, can you see DNA and genes?
    (See what I mean about the perversion of the "one drop rule"?)


    samerphx (edit)> I also want to added, there are some European people that converted to Judaism and call themselves Jews.

    S0. So? Because a few people converted here and there (almost always in order to marry a Jew) Jews aren't a nationality? See my comments above about racist arguments about "racial purity". Would you similarly argue that if a Frenchman married a Hungarian, Hungarian is no longer a nationality?!


    samerphx> I call them Irish. If I say European of Catholic faith (Italian, French, Spaniards, Irish etc...) Jew is not a nationality.

    S1. When did Jew stop being a nationality?

    S2. If one of these Jews was an atheist, would you - for your nefarious political propaganda purposes - label them as "European of Atheist faith"?

    S3. What makes these people "European" anyhow when the majority of their genetic DNA is of middle-eastern origin?!


    It gets even funnier because as happens so often, Samer is arguing from multiple and contradicting premises.

    S4. Attempting to show that Palestinian Arabs are native to Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel), Samer claimed that their genetic makeup was similar to Jews*. So if Jews are "Europeans", then so are the Palestinian Arabs. Guess they must descend from the Crusaders, eh?

    S5. At other times Samer has argued that the Palestinian Arabs are the descendants of the Jews and those Jews who became the early Christians. So we are to believe that a certain group of alleged desendants of Jews (who converted first to Christianity and most later to Islam) are a nationality... but the Jews who retained their Jewish religion are not a nationality?

    ----------------------------------
    * As wrerick and I discussed in one of the other topics where this came up, Samer was mis-stating the journal's findings. Jews and Palestinian Arabs share a genetic background that dates back to the Neolithic period - some 10,000 years ago. That's a "cousin" rather than "descendant" relationship and is not localized to one geographic area. It's like saying that Germans and French share common ancestry rather than that one descends from the other and without putting Germans in France or the French in Germany.


  • ROYCE13

    Posts: 315

    Apr 17, 2009 5:28 AM GMT
    I am not trying to interject for the wrong reasons, but your thread is not going to go anywhere productive, it seems to be a discussion between the two of you and it is not productive. And the chromosome topic is very interesting, but it really has not bearing on this topic started or the disagreement you are having.

    I think the Chromosome issue could be a new topic and ask the RJ Jewish members to respond to the issue and if they were aware of it, and if they could count their heritage as well, as the article states.

    Your thread line is appropriate, but then jumping into the chromosome issue is an other issue altogether.

    Shalom and Peace to all.
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    Apr 17, 2009 5:35 AM GMT
    See what I mean about Samer flippng willy-nilly and making arguments from contradicting premises? (See S4 & S5 above, and note that Samer couldn't address that or the rest - S0 to S3 - of what I said.) So if European Jews are mostly "eastern Mediterranean, why call them "Europeans of Jewish faith"?!


    Royce13> Eastern European verses Western when discussing differences in culture of religious practices.

    There really aren't any differences in culture or religious practice. It's not even like one can "look" at a "European of Jewish faith" and determine from what country they came.

    The distinction between east and west was one of political freedom and financial status. Starting with Napoleon and more so in the latter half of the 19th century, Jews in western Europe were emancipated, gained political freedoms and were allowed to enter some professions from which they had been barred for centuries. Not so in Eastern Europe, where many Jews lived in poverty.

    But we don't say "Eastern/Western Europeans of Jewish Faith" but rather "Eastern/Western European Jews". The reason for this is that these Jews had no other nationality. They weren't Ukranian or Polish or French but... Jews.


    Royce13> Your thread line is appropriate, but then jumping into the chromosome issue is an other issue altogether

    Consider it a pre-emptive post to the "lookism" arguments I knew people like samerphx would make.... (Not that it stops Samer or drfishman from making their racist arguments, but so that people will initially recognize those arguments for the racist garbage that they are.)

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    Apr 17, 2009 5:47 AM GMT
    Yeah, I have to admit to making that mistake a lot. Don't make many references to the Jews or Judaism outside generalizing a list of world religions, so it's hard to keep track; though that's no excuse in my mind. Thanks, I'm going to track this thread and keep an eye on it regularly.
  • Hunter9

    Posts: 1039

    Apr 17, 2009 5:56 AM GMT
    I'm a Jew who has no desire to spend time with and/or associate with Jews, not least because of all the idiot Jews like yourself.

    And you're right, I didn't read most of this thread because its the same god damn thing everytime:

    WE'RE NOT BETTER THAN ANYBODY... GET THE FUCK OVER IT
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    Apr 17, 2009 6:01 AM GMT
    Hunter9> We're not better than anybody

    Who said anything about anyone being better than anyone else?
    You might want to read the topic and comment about it.

    The fact that you say "we" [Jews], despite the fact (if I remember correctly) that we are both atheists, proves my point.
    Thanks!

  • Hunter9

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    Apr 17, 2009 6:26 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidHunter9> We're not better than anybody

    Who said anything about anyone being better than anyone else?
    You might want to read the topic and comment about it.

    The fact that you say "we" [Jews], despite the fact (if I remember correctly) that we are both atheists, proves my point.
    Thanks!



    i was raised jewish, i can't (nor want to) deny experiences in my past. so please excuse my diction and stop parsing my words
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    Apr 17, 2009 6:48 AM GMT
    [quote][cite]Caesarea4 said[/cite]samerphx> many people convert to Judaism

    Really? How many per year?


    i always hate to back the point of someone else who i dont like. I hate it even more when im going against another jew on a jewish matter... however, according to the polls done by the unversity of judaism here in brentwood, the convert sect is actually the fastest growing group of jews. Its measures in the 750 thousand a yeah in the the United States alone.


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    Apr 17, 2009 7:01 AM GMT
    I, for one, am glad I'm neither Jewish not Palestinian. Jeez.
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    Apr 17, 2009 7:04 AM GMT
    Sedative, come-on dude, please convert.
    (I'll get a toaster oven full of yummy Jewish food. You can have half!)




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    Apr 17, 2009 7:09 AM GMT
    thats what i said! apprently converts are very good and converting more!
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    Apr 17, 2009 7:13 AM GMT
    jrunner25> Its measures in the 750 thousand a yeah in the the United States alone.

    That's not at all possible. It would mean that the number of Jews in the US would grow by more than 1 million per year and by now there would be tens of millions of Jews in the US - which is not the case.

    http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_conversionnumbers.htm
    || about 10,000 annually.

    And thats world-wide!