US boycotting Iran starring.....at UN racism meeting

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    Apr 19, 2009 8:20 PM GMT
    The article is too long to post in its entirety here, but here is the link for it. Essentially, the United States and other western countries are boycotting because of language in the resolution that likens Zionism (the establishment of a Jewish state in the Holy Land) to racism and that Islamic nations want to hamper free speech within the conference and ban language of the resolution they call an incitement of religious hatred. I found it interesting that a conference on racism and caused countries to boycott based on religious intolerance.


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090419/ap_on_re_eu/un_un_racism_conference
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    Apr 20, 2009 12:14 AM GMT
    Iran does have some problems, their "oil curse" being one of them, but I think what you have said has little basis on evidence and is not a whollistic description of Iran.
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    Apr 20, 2009 12:16 AM GMT
    Pouncer saidI believe Iran should be boycotted at any cost. It would be ridiculous to allow a foul little government like the one in Tehran to have a pathetic little UN platform to complain about "racism", especially when they have imposed every kind of hateful discrimination and religious backwardness on their own people for 30 years.

    Since Iran was taken over by a senile theocrat by the name of Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979, the once great country that used to rule over a vast Persian empire has gradually lost its pulse. The Mullahs have sunk the country in bankruptcy and beggary, its economy has flat-lined, its leading intellectuals and scientists are in exile, its young people are mostly half-educated and unemployed, and its women are mostly just used as chattel and sexual prey. After a quarter of a century of theocracy, its chief exports today are exactly what they were when the Mullahs took over - pistachio nuts and rugs.


    Is ignorance bliss?

    I was wondering, because you seem to assume that before the Ayatollah's, there was some sort of "good" governance system in Iran.

    The Shah was a brutal despot and tyrant, responsible for the disappearance of over 200,000 Iranians under a repressive dictatorship. But he was a good little puppet of the US - so don't criticize him.

    Iranians have a more democratic system today than they did under the Shah's 26 year rule.

    Prior to that, Iran actually HAD a democratic system. And had elected Prime Minister Mossadeq in 1953, who planned on nationalizing Iran's oil industry, taking the monopoly away from British Petroleum (BP).

    So what happened?

    The British MI6, working with the CIA, overthrew the democratically elected government of Mossadeq, orchestrated terror attacks and campaigns blaming the Prime Minister, leading to his removal and installment of the good little puppet, the Shah.

    I am not saying the current theocratic state of Iran is ideal, not by any means. I tend to dislike its political leaders and system, but thinking that they had some GREAT system prior seems to me, to be a pseudo-racist, if not Eurocentric and Orientalist method of thinking - "it was good because it was good for us (the US)".

    And sorry, but you also show a vague, at best, understanding of Iranian society today. Again, I am not saying it is a great society, but look at photos of Tehran, it is hardly a "backwards" society - it is highly industrialized and developed, and is by no means "bankrupt".

    Watch your sources. When it comes to Iran - basically discount anything that the media blabs on about - they want the destruction of Iran because the media conglomerates work for the Military Industrial Complex and the international banking fraternity that controls it.

    Even alluding to a nation in a different part of the world as "backwards" is an inherently neo-imperial and Orientalist assumption, viewing that part of the world as "the Other" and the antithesis of western, "developed", industrialized, "democratic civilization."

    And as for the conference on racism, while Iran uses rhetoric that can be anti-semetic, it is important to look at the bigger picture.

    The west, particularly the US, is no bastion of religious or racial tolerance. It's the same BS as saying that the Iraq war was about "spreading democracy and freedom". Rhetoric is used by politicians to conceal reality and political agendas.

    The conference is being boycotted because criticism of Israel is not permitted. Israel, which violates human rights on a daily basis, commits a policy of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and as a state, represents many similarities in its relations with the Palestinians that the Nazi state held towards Jews. Gaza is literally a ghetto enclosed behind a massive wall (built with funding by the World Bank).

    History will show no sympathy to the passivity and apathy of the nations of the world in turning a blind eye to Israel's actions.

    However, when the US empire collapses (which is set to happen within the next decade or two), international support for Israel will collapse too, and then it doesnt have a friend in the world. Which is a sad fact for the ISraeli citizens.

    Again, I want to clarify the difference between opposing the Israeli GOVERNMENT and the Israeli people - one does not imply the other.

    For example, i am a staunch opponent of the American empire and all its adherent and political puppets (including Obama - sorry, if you were expecting change, but dont hold your breath), yet, I have great respect for many Americans I have come across, and consider many (specifically through this website) to be friends.

    ANyway, that's my two cents.
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    Apr 20, 2009 12:21 AM GMT
    This doesn't surprise me in a world where people deny the Holocaust, and in some countries denying it happened is illegal. No matter how stupid, Democracy in full is the only way to go. I believe that ALL sides have their faults, need to apologize, move forward, and educate - but that wont happen when their governments use these bigoted opinions and lies to keep getting elected into office.

    In the end, it is real Democratic governments that must stand up and educate other countries.
  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Apr 20, 2009 2:32 AM GMT
    it sick that those countries focus so much on the minor Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and ignore Sudan! thanks to those countries, the situation in Sudan was never declared a "genocide."
    Genocide and Wars are nothing but political games this days,

    hey MeOhMy Israel/Palestine are nothing like the Nazi treatment of the jews, i know people love to compare israel to the Nazis to try to move thier weak point stronger, but its completely different.

    Gaza is not a ghetto you should look at a map of Gaza, Egypt controls the crossing into Gaza, not Israel. "Rafah crossing" If Their government (Hamas) would just stop attacking Israel... israel may permit the 10k-20k Palestinians to work in israel again.

    and i am glad you have the power to predict the future... When USA will collapse Israel wont have any friends... If that ever happens and i dont think it will, there will be complete power struggle among many great Powers, EU, China, Russia... trust me israel will always have an allay. Its a nuclear country.

    p.s. pouncer your the first person on this site to criticize israel in a rational way, occupation is the worst thing israel did and ultimately they must withdraw the settlers, regardless to the situation on the ground.
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    Apr 20, 2009 3:15 AM GMT
    MeOhMy> Iranians have a more democratic system today than they did under the Shah's 26 year rule

    Is that like someone being "more pregnant"?
    Iran's system today is NOT democratic.


    MeOhMy> "it was good because it was good for us (the US)".

    Certainly it's true that during the cold war we preferred our SOB to their SOB, but hopefully you aren't arguing the opposite, that Iran isn't bad just because it isn't good for the US.

    Iran is bad because it persecutes Bahais, executes homosexuals and opresses women and other minorities.


    MeOhMy> as for the conference on racism, while Iran uses rhetoric that can be anti-semetic, it is important to look at the bigger picture. ...The conference is being boycotted because criticism of Israel is not permitted.

    Um, no. It is being boycotted because countries with far worse human right records than Israel's (which is actually quite good) have hijacked the conference to be about Israel rather than about them.


    MeOhMy> Israel... commits a policy of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and as a state, represents many similarities in its relations with the Palestinians that the Nazi state held towards Jews.

    Ridiculous (and please look up Godwin's Law). The nazis are known for their well-engineered genocide of Jews, murdering as many as 10,000 people per DAY in the course of the "Final Solution". Over the past 8.5 years, Israel has killed about 5,000 Palestinian Arabs (that's 1 or 2 per day)over the course of the intifada (Arab violence and terrorism) - the majority of the casualties being terrorists who were attacking Israel and only about 5% of them women.

    The nazis, of course, had a stated goal of exterminating all Jews. Israel has a stated goal of achieving peace with its Arab neighbors - and unfortunately the limiting factor has (over 60+ years) been the unwillingness of various Arab groups to make peace under any conditions. (When they finally did, they found a ready, willing and able partner waiting in Israel.)

    Indeed, just Friday Hamas leaders stated:

    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/04/17/70841.html
    || "We cannot, we will not, and we will never recognize the enemy in any way, shape or form," al-Zahar said in a mosque sermon broadcast on the Islamist movement's radio station, referring to Israel.

    Indeed, it is groups like Hamas and Hizbullah which - like the nazis - have a stated agenda of genocide of Jews (and not just in Israel but world-wide). The only thing holding them back is that they lack the means (which is exactly why a nuclear Iran is worrisome). Contrast that to Israel which has the means but doesn't use them.


    As for Israel's human rights record:

    http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2002/p6a.html
    || 66% of the Palestinians give a positive evaluation to the status of democracy and human rights in Israel.

    This at the height of the Intifada.

    What do the Palestinian Arabs know that MeOhMy (amongst others) don't?

    Israeli Arabs and Muslims are full citizens with equal protection under the law. They (including women) vote, have political parties, serve in the Knesset (parliament) - including as ministers in the ruling government coalition. They serve in the foreign office, including as ambassadors. They serve in the judiciary, including on the High (supreme) Corut - the only such court in the mideast where an Arab/Muslim citizen can sue his own government, live to tell about it, and win or lose the case based only on its legal merits. Israeli Arabs/Muslims even serve in the Israel Defense Forces, attaining ranks as high as Generals, helping to defend their country.

    Indeed, in countries with truly bad human rights records, we see people trying to escape OUT of the country (often risking their life to do so).

    What we see in the mideast is Palestinian Arabs - and Muslim refugees from Darfur - risking their lives to get IN to Israel for the better life it offers them. (Including gay Palestinian Arabs who escape to Israel.)

  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Apr 20, 2009 8:46 AM GMT
    samerphx saidAll the pro-Zionists out there... Get a life.


    ok little jihadi
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    Apr 20, 2009 10:22 AM GMT
    are you a palestininan christian like edward said?

    http://campus-watch.org/article/id/798

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said
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    Apr 20, 2009 1:46 PM GMT
    Yup, he appears to be a liar-for-the-cause in the same tradition as Edward Said.

    http://www.meforum.org/191/edward-said-and-me

    For years Said presented himself as the typical refugee, expelled from his house which was then "stolen".

    Turns out he didn't even live in Mandate Palestine (but in Cairo, where he went to school - there is no record of him attending school in Jerusalem as he claimed, either). His family, like many of the other well-to-do families, left at the first sign of trouble - even before the UN vote on the partition compromise. And "My beautiful old house"? His aunt, who owned it, sold it.

    But now we are way off from this topic.
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    Apr 20, 2009 1:46 PM GMT
    samerphx> According to Libyan leader and few other Black Africans leaders say Israel was behind this war in Sudan.

    Oh, then it must be true, right...?

    In fact, the best thing that could happen to the victims in Darfur is for Israel to fire 1 bullet at them. Suddenly the entire world would focus on (rather than ignore) Darfur.


    samerphx> According to the British Jewish Gerald Kaufman who said Nazi treatment of Jews is like Israel treatment of Palestinians. You should look him up on youtube. He made a speech how Israel is like a Nazi. Do some research before you post anything.

    Oh, if some Jewish guy said it on the internet... it must be true.
    No need to discuss the substance of the kangaroo court accusation.


    samerphx> Israel control Gaza-Egypt border.

    False, and I think most people here remember that when the border was breached by Hamas just over a year ago, Israel was not involved.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1079109.html
    || Egypt on Saturday opened its border with the Gaza Strip for limited numbers of humanitarian cases, a Hamas spokesman said. ...Israel and Egypt closed their border with the Gaza Strip in 2007 after Hamas took over the territory by force. Since then, Egypt has periodically allowed the departure and return of humanitarian cases.


    Caesarea4> Iran's system today is NOT democratic.

    SP> Israel is not democratic either.

    Well, at least Samer admits that Iran is not democratic - though I suspect he doesn't really understand what that means or what the requirements are. Sadly, no intelligent discussion with him is possible. He really can't deal with anything beyond spamming sound-bites and slogans.

    As I already noted, 2/3rds of Palestinian Arabs (not Israeli Arabs but those living in the disputed territories) - even during the height of the intifada - gave high marks to Israeli democracy and human rights.

    Note that this is data, unlike Samer's anecdotes of what one Jewish person (with no other qualification) said on the internet.


    Samer, can you tell us why gay Palestinian Arabs living in the disputed territories, under PA or Hamas rule, escape to Israel?

    And why, according to a poll by Palestinian Arab academics based in Ramallah, 66% of Palestinian Arabs give high marks to Israeli democracy and human rights - even during the height of the intifada?


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    Apr 20, 2009 2:51 PM GMT
    I think it's possible to describe Israel as an apartheid state.

    I agree with Desmond Tutu here,

    I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.

    And very strongly with him here...

    Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/29/comment
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_wall

  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Apr 20, 2009 6:45 PM GMT
    since the wall was built, when was the last suicide bomber? and if there was a suicide bombing how many Palestinians would of die when israel strike back?

    wall not a good thing

    did/does it save life? yes
  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Apr 20, 2009 6:46 PM GMT


    Delegate walk out!!!! great show of unity, in a perfect world that room would of been empty, but this is beautiful to watch.
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    Apr 20, 2009 7:00 PM GMT
    I am glad that there was a delegate walk-out because Ahmadinejad is racist and a holocaust denier.
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    Apr 20, 2009 7:39 PM GMT
    Lost_And_Found saidI am glad that there was a delegate walk-out because Ahmadinejad is racist and a holocaust denier.


    I agree with you, except that the walk out would be seen in iran and other antiZionist nations as a "victory" for ahmadinejed. (btw Najad was trying to immitate the turkish PM when his popularity increased after he stood up for the gazans) Najad's popularity back home is at an all time low, and he needed this media stunt.

    lets us not forget that all what he said could be said to his islamist regime. (the Islamist (ayatollah khomieneh) came in from years of exile in france after a military cue...

    add to that he claims Iran is an Islamic state (what does that say about a large population of non shites there, sunni, jews, christians, zaradesht...) reminds me of the Israeli so called jewish state that Najad was arguing againt.
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    Apr 20, 2009 7:56 PM GMT
    dglater said

    Delegate walk out!!!! great show of unity, in a perfect world that room would of been empty, but this is beautiful to watch.


    Beautiful? I got bloody teary-eyed. The fact that so many delegates peacefully and swiftly walked past him while he spoke is so powerful.

    --Samer: Do you support this man--a man who believes Israel and millions of people should be wiped off the Earth?

    Do you believe in his statement about the holocaust?

    Another thing...

    Samer, you rarely give credible information or websites/sources which is why I have a hard time believing your motives. In your first post here: two out of three of your citations are questionable at best.
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    Apr 20, 2009 8:28 PM GMT
    dglater saidsince the wall was built, when was the last suicide bomber? and if there was a suicide bombing how many Palestinians would of die when israel strike back?

    wall not a good thing

    did/does it save life? yes

    I know you try to be balanced, but I think you are wrong that, long term, the wall will save lives. Back to Desmond Tutu (above)...

    'Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people.'

    Barack Obama said something similar at the inauguration when he said,

    'We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals'

    DrFishmanThe walk out would be seen in iran and other antiZionist nations as a "victory" for ahmadinejed.

    I hadn't thought of it like this, but still, it is right of the delegates to make a
    moral stand.

    Cjcscuba - Samer has never said that he supports Ahmadinejad. Samer believes in democracy and freedom.
  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    Apr 20, 2009 9:25 PM GMT
    i agree the wall needs to come down, but i cant help it but agree it saves lives.

    we all remember 2000-2003 when ever there was a suicide bomber israel would respond with heavy air strikes, the wall prevents war.
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    Apr 21, 2009 2:42 AM GMT
    jprichva said
    Drfishman said reminds me of the Israeli so called jewish state that Najad was arguing againt.

    You just can't help yourself, can you.

    Once a racist, always a racist.
    (good to know that drfishman agrees with Ahmadinejad. Birds of a feather.)


    Lost> I think it's possible to describe Israel as an apartheid state.

    It is also "possible" to describe the USA as an apartheid state.
    Wrong, but possible.


    Tutu> it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa.

    It only makes sense that Tutu will see other situations through his own experience, but that doesn't make him right.

    There is absolutely no apartheid (I wonder if people even know what that means other than a soundbite/slogan to pitch) in Israel. When it comes to the disputed territories, the situation changes. Not to one of "apartheid", but to one of "occupied" territories.

    Consider that under international law Israel cannot extend its civilian law into the territories (unless it first annexes them, something I'm guessing you and Tutu would oppose). So now because Israel is doing what it is supposed to be doing it is "apartheid"?

    Is the USA an apartheid state because American civilian law does not apply in occupied Iraq?
    Is the USA an apartheid state because Puerto Ricans can't vote in Federal elections?


    Lost> Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people.

    Israel has no desire to oppress anyone. It was willing to withdraw from the disputed territories immediately after the 1967 war (when it accepted UNSCR 242 which established the "land for peace" formula). The problem then, as it still is today, is that certain Arab parties were unwilling to make peace.


    Lost> the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

    Under international law, ambulances may be inspected. The "inhumanity" here is that the Arab/Muslim terrorists (with the complicity of the Red Crescent) use Ambulances as military supply vehicles (e.g. to smuggle in suicide bomb belts) and as terrorist taxis.


    BTW, the security barrier is 95% fence (it is only a wall in areas where previously Arab/Muslim terrorist snipers would shoot Israeli civilians). As dglater points out, it has saved probably hundreds (if not thousands) of lives on both sides.


    Lost> A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice.

    No, because what is "justice" to one side is an "injustice" to the other... and that is a formula of eternal conflict. The road to peace is through compromise and coexistence.


    DF> the walk out would be seen in iran and other antiZionist nations as a "victory" for ahmadinejed

    How so? The man was scorned even by those who didn't boycott the summit (in part due to his presence). You yourself said he was trying to mimick the Turkish PM's popularity stunt... evidently he failed.

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    Apr 21, 2009 2:47 AM GMT
    his behavior was absolutely disgusting. bombs away!
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    Apr 21, 2009 11:39 AM GMT
    Caesarea4It is also "possible" to describe the USA as an apartheid state.

    I think it was possible to describe the American South as apartheid. It is not now. Parts of Australia are apartheid...
    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22200386-5006009,00.html

    America's example is a lesson to the World. I honestly can't understand how the nation that produced Sarah Palin also produced Barack Obama, but it did.

    Caesarea4Israel has no desire to oppress anyone.

    I know this. I do not think the wall/attack on Gaza/home demolitions are what the majority of Israelis really want.

    I think Israelis are really, really scared, which in turn has made Israel an oppressive state. I don't understand why Israel acts in such a draconian way when it's not really under threat. It's not been under threat since 1967.

    I also think both sides lack talented leadership - is that a fair statement?

    Caesarea4No, because what is "justice" to one side is an "injustice" to the other... and that is a formula of eternal conflict. The road to peace is through compromise and coexistence.


    Haha, yes. This is a can of worms. Justice could mean 'revenge'. I think it just means 'fairness'. Which probably isn't much different from 'compromise and coexistance.'

    That said, I can't really see the Clinton Compromise as 'fair'. If I'm honest I think Israel is going to have move the West Bank settlers. I have a real problem with this though, because they can't just be left unprotected.

    -Do you agree that the West Bank settlers are acting aggressively?
    -Oh and I've got another question, although the Jewish people are not 'Europeans', do you think it would be fair to say that Israel has a 'European culture'? Genuinely asking, don't know.
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    Apr 21, 2009 11:51 AM GMT
    Why are we discussing this in dating, sex and relationships everyone?

    Is this thread going to lead to something?

    I think it might be time for a big, gay truce in the Middle East.
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    Apr 21, 2009 12:29 PM GMT
    Lost_And_Found saidWhy are we discussing this in dating, sex and relationships everyone?

    At last, a sensible remark on an Israel/Palestinian thread.
    There are lots and lots of political sites expressly designed to host this sort of thing, where the readers actually relish a daily rehashing of the same non-negotiable grievances. Why here?
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    Apr 21, 2009 2:58 PM GMT
    dglater saidsince the wall was built, when was the last suicide bomber? and if there was a suicide bombing how many Palestinians would of die when israel strike back?

    wall not a good thing

    did/does it save life? yes


    Since the NAZI killed so many jews in the WW2, HOW MANY JEWS HAVE FACED THE SAME ANTISEMITIC RHETORIC (and ghetos) IN EUROPE.
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    Apr 21, 2009 4:03 PM GMT
    The security barrier is 95% fence (it is only a wall in areas where previously Arab/Muslim terrorist snipers would shoot Israeli civilians). As dglater points out, it has saved probably hundreds (if not thousands) of lives on both sides.

    Good fences make good neighbors.

    The only word to describe the comparison of building a security barrier to prevent attacks on Israeli civilians with the nazi Holocaust of Jews (and on Holocaust Rememberance Day) is: "insanity".

    But what else does anyone expect from an unrepentant racist like "drfishman"?