Why the U.S. attack on Iraq was a crime.

  • tokugawa

    Posts: 945

    Apr 20, 2009 10:36 AM GMT
    caesarea4 wrote:

    > Abu Ghraib was a crime. That doesn't make the entire war a crime...

    The reason the war in Iraq is a crime is that we launched a preemptive war of aggression against a nation which was not a threat to the U.S. and we did it without the backing of the U.N. Security Council.

    The leaders of the U.S. (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld) knowingly LIED about our justification in attacking Iraq:

    * Iraq did not possess nuclear weapons or ANY weapons of mass destruction, and the U.S. government knew it, but withheld this information from the American people. And the U.S. government implied that Iraq did have such weapons.

    * The "yellow cake from Niger" hoax was based on a forged document, and an obvious forgery; the signature of the Niger Minister in charge of their Uranium industry who allegedly signed the document was the WRONG PERSON. The forged signature was an ex-Minister who had been out of office for ten years! Yet Bush referred to this in his State of the Union address.

    * When the U.S. Senate, by a 2/3 vote, ratified the United Nations treaty in 1945, it became the "law of the land" according to the U.S. Constitution. The U.N. treaty stated that only the United Nations Security Council could authorize the use of force, and the only exception was to defend your country if it was the victim of an attack. Since the U.S. failed in its quest to get the approval of the U.N. Security Council for its attack on Iraq in 2003, the U.S. government committed a crime when it attacked Iraq, according to U.S. law.

    And the preemptive attack on Iraq, a nation which was not a threat to the U.S. at the time, was THE WORST POSSIBLE INTERNATIONAL CRIME, according to the standards set by the Nuremberg tribunal which convicted and executed Nazi leaders.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 20, 2009 11:55 AM GMT
    Not only was it illegal and immoral, it also failed in terms of Bush and Blairs' own policy goals.

    - Stability and democracy in Iraq. FAIL.
    - Bring human rights to Iraq. FAIL, plus hundreds of thousands of innocent dead.
    - Find and destroy WMDs. FAIL, there were none.
    - Reduce the thread posed by Al-Quaeda. FAIL. Now Al-Quaeda are vastly more influential in Iraq.
    - Increase America's prestige in the World. FAIL. People like Hollywood and Apple Computers, not bombs.

    Watch this Electic Six video, it's hilarious.

    Tell me, do you have any money? I want to spend all your money, at the Gay Bar.

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    Apr 20, 2009 3:11 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]Lost_And_Found said[/cite]Not only was it illegal and immoral, it also failed in terms of Bush and Blairs' own policy goals.

    - Stability and democracy in Iraq. FAIL.
    - Reduce the thread posed by Al-Quaeda. FAIL. Now Al-Quaeda are vastly more influential in Iraq.
    - Increase America's prestige in the World. FAIL. People like Hollywood and Apple Computers, not bombs.

    Cant say it is more stable that it was before we got here but it is getting better by the day.

    Al-Quaeda in Iraq is dwendling. The security situation in Iraq has dramaticly improved over the past year or so. Al-Quaeda is not a huge threat anymore, compaired to what it was.

    Most Iraqis love us and are glad we came and took Saddam and his guys out of power. I am not agreeing with the reasons we came here or saying that they were wrong...Just saying it happened and there are good things that came out of it.
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    Apr 20, 2009 3:44 PM GMT
    From an outsider, in some ways, to this whole situation, there are a number of things I would like to point out.

    Firstly, let's disregard the wrong or rights of this issue.

    I would be very surprised if the wives, husbands, lovers, mums and dads and children of those who are serving in Iraq would not be deeply offended by your comments. Regardless of the politics of this war, the lives of the young men and women are the most important thing to contend with here.

    Secondly, the US were supporters of the Iraqi regime for many, many years until the Iraqi's stopped playing along. The weapons of mass destruction that the US were trying to find were actually sold to the Iraqi's by the US war machine that supports a huge amount of the US economy. War is a money spinner, always has been.

    Lastly, you make numerous references to the UN. I'm hoping you are a comedian. The UN is a toothless tiger that no nation actually wants, or heeds. Certainly, the US never has. The US has always voted against anything it doesn't agree with in the UN, and the UN has always watched on helplessly as the US (or other nations) do exactly as they want. The UN's decisions did nothing to stop the violence and war in Bosnia, or Afghanistan, or even Northern Ireland.

    Yes, the invasion of a country who had not declared war on the US was a crime. Yes, the US had no right to lie their way into a war that was never declared. The entire situation is terribly wrong.
    However, let's keep our disgust under control until every soldier is home and safe, and let's regret those who have been lost to us in the process.

    xx cronks.


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    Apr 20, 2009 5:27 PM GMT
    drjon2koMost Iraqis love us and are glad we came and took Saddam and his guys out of power

    Dude, no.

    •In all, 83% of Shiites and 97% of Sunni Arabs oppose the presence of coalition forces in Iraq; 75% of Kurds support them. By more than 3 to 1, Iraqis say the presence of U.S. forces is making the security situation worse.

    Admittedly this is from 2007, but you just can't say they 'love' us.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-03-19-iraq-poll-day2_N.htm

    And even if 'some' good things came out of it, it wasn't worth the death toll, this is estimated at about 655,000. That's the population of a medium-sized city.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

    cronkerHowever, let's keep our disgust under control until every soldier is home and safe, and let's regret those who have been lost to us in the process.


    I respect this argument, but I can't agree with it. This just gives politicians license to enter as many silly wars as they want - and we can't criticise because they're using our troops.
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    Apr 20, 2009 5:37 PM GMT
    Lost_And_Found said
    drjon2koMost Iraqis love us and are glad we came and took Saddam and his guys out of power

    Dude, no.

    •In all, 83% of Shiites and 97% of Sunni Arabs oppose the presence of coalition forces in Iraq; 75% of Kurds support them. By more than 3 to 1, Iraqis say the presence of U.S. forces is making the security situation worse.

    Admittedly this is from 2007, but you just can't say they 'love' us.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-03-19-iraq-poll-day2_N.htm

    And even if 'some' good things came out of it, it wasn't worth the death toll, this is estimated at about 655,000. That's the population of a medium-sized city.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

    cronkerHowever, let's keep our disgust under control until every soldier is home and safe, and let's regret those who have been lost to us in the process.


    I respect this argument, but I can't agree with it. This just gives politicians license to enter as many silly wars as they want - and we can't criticise because they're using our troops.



    2007 is not 2009. Hmm, listen to outdated satistics from a media who is usually one sided or a statement from a soldier who has lived here for five years and has literally seen almost the entire war first hand, and works with iraqis everyday.?
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    Apr 20, 2009 5:47 PM GMT
    I didn't realise you were personally involved in the conflict, if I had, I would have taken a different tone.

    For me, the death toll is much, much too high whatever the benefits, but I have no intention of attacking you personally, or the work you do.

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    Apr 20, 2009 6:07 PM GMT
    I never disagreed that the war was wrong to begin with. Just saying it happened. We are making the best of it. Good things have come out of it. The iraqi people are happy with the situation. They have the chance for a better future than they would have ever had with Saddam. Things are opening up for the country. Progress is slow, but it really is moving along. Just cant view things from prespective of wanting everything to happen in a matter of months or a decade. Wars like this take years to recover from. If you look at conflicts historically in that matter, i think this one has been pretty progressive considering the factors. Death on any scale is hard to justify. But again, some of us are here doing what we can to make the best of things, build relationships with the iraqi people, and help them take back their country. There is a certain phycological scar that was left from Saddam. One far too complicated to attempt to explain in a forum. But i can say that i have personal insight on that from talking to many of them, a handful who i consider family. And i can say that we are helping those scars fade away by bringing new light of thought. I know it sounds cheezy and grosely egotistical or whatever...but trust me...if you or anybody ever want an insider view on the situation, feel free to hit me up.
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    Apr 20, 2009 6:29 PM GMT
    i just wanted to point out that, in my opinion, the progress of "velvet" (no bloodshed) revolutions in most of eastern europe in the 90's, that brought democracies to the former authoritarian countries, should have been an example for any attempts of nation building by the US. it has to come from within, from the people of the country to be sustainable.
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    Apr 20, 2009 6:31 PM GMT
    DrJon2koDeath on any scale is hard to justify. But again, some of us are here doing what we can to make the best of things, build relationships with the iraqi people, and help them take back their country.


    OK man. I think I agree with everything you say there and I think that you've got a valuable perspective.

    Still though, I'm f**king furious with Bush and Blair. So furious, I scream at the television when Blair comes on. icon_wink.gif
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    Apr 20, 2009 6:43 PM GMT
    Bush is an idiot. and my comments are kind of off topic from the forum. But still valid. but yeah...I hear ya man