Are you ready for Torture Trials?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 24, 2009 10:10 PM GMT
    I think the evidence is starting to build and make trials inevitable. ...and they are necessary for America to truly stay a country of law and good faith in the future.

    One Republican on TV is saying trials would tear America apart. I dont buy that. Americans will go where the evidence leads.
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    Apr 24, 2009 10:20 PM GMT
    What that Republican really fears is that torture trials would tear the Republican Party apart, not the country, and make clear party involvement in crimes against humanity. For years the Republicans have been all about party before people. Claims they make now about national interest are a cynical attempt to cover their own guilty asses.

    The interesting thing to me is that this may be decided on 2 fronts: US and international. There is growing world-wide and UN pressure to investigate and prosecute some in the previous Bush Administration for formal war crimes.

    I'd like to see it happen, not only to punish the guilty, but to destroy the Republican Party and their supporters, who have blood all over their hands. I'm glad to see their monstrous villainy & evil publicly exposed by US and international legal bodies.
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    Apr 24, 2009 10:35 PM GMT
    Republican morality in government, business, and the society is about to bite the dust.

    First, that the people's gov't is always evil...is going the way of G. W. Bush.

    Second, the crap that business knows all the right answers and will take care of everybody's good fortune.....gone!

    Third, that conservatives, christians, and rural neanderthals have better judgment and knowledge of politicians and morals .... laughable claim .... icon_lol.gif
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    Apr 25, 2009 3:57 AM GMT
    I'd prefer the issue had not arisen, because it will retard all the things we need to do in this country. But there it sits, a big, ugly, drooling beast that we have to face and deal with. You cannot have a government of laws and ignore massive law-breaking, which it appears Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld ITALIC TEXT GOES HEREet al.
    Whether it is the Justice Department, the Congress, or a commission, an investigation needs to be done and if the is evidence of law-breaking, indictments must follow.
    We have imprisoned several of the personnel from Abu Ghraib. They may be responible for their individual act, but surely not for the policies that authorized and instructed them to commit illegal acts.
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    Apr 25, 2009 4:32 AM GMT
    I don't think we'll be torn apart. Most Americans believe the Bush administration made mistakes and unethical decisions that don't appeal to our overall belief in who we are. HOWEVER, I do believe we could all do without the distraction and waste of time. It would only lead to frustration and should Obama have a decent opposition (unlikely but not to be ignored), this will really hurt him.

    Nobody will ACTUALLY see time and we all already know their guilty. I say let the News networks reveal it all as has been made aware - and that they will.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Apr 25, 2009 5:37 AM GMT
    Why do people feel that justice is a "waste of time" or a "distraction"? If someone wrecklessly killed or injured someone you love dearly, or yourself, wouldn't you want to seek justice for at least for the sake of closure.

    My opinion for those who want to forego justice, I think you're all too lazy to consider yourselves free!

    I hear so many manipulations of fact on the subject of tortue that I just want to clear the air on a few points.

    - "What rights do terrorists have? How do they have American rights?" All people, regardless of their label, have "certain inalienable rights". The operative word is inalienable. Inalienable means that we all have certain basic human rights, such as the presumption of innocence, a right to defend, habeus corpus and definitely the right to not be harmed, that are not restricted or bound to any geopolitical boundaries

    - I would also like to point out that tortue is NOT justice. It is sadism. Torture is torture. There are no degrees of severity to torture like there are degrees of severity to a burn of the flesh. The benefit of torture is the satisfaction of the sadist because it ends when he is satisfied.

    - We Americans subscribe to the Geneva Convention codes. It is a treaty for handling prisoners of war and whatever detainee status you may prefer. Our Constitution, the supreme law of the land, stipulates that all treaties agreed to are part of the law. It's codification became the benchmark standard of conduct after the fog of World War II had been lifted from our social psyche. To excuse torture as a means of the times following the attacks of 9/11 is inexcusable because the precedent had been set ~50 years before. It has stood the test of time through many wars.

    Why waiver now? Where is our courage?
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    Apr 25, 2009 5:46 AM GMT
    Caslon10000 saidI think the evidence is starting to build and make trials inevitable. ...and they are necessary for America to truly stay a country of law and good faith in the future.

    One Republican on TV is saying trials would tear America apart. I dont buy that. Americans will go where the evidence leads.


    The fact that we tortured and we've tried to justify it by saying it wasn't illegal because Federal Judge Bybee (who wrote the torture memo) found a way to change the meaning of the word, is what is tearing America apart.

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    Apr 25, 2009 6:06 AM GMT
    When I think about the sadistic, amoral, cruel, and evil things that were done during the last administration by the American government - by my country! - it makes me sick - and mad as Hell!
    And to know that probably the biggest reason that they pushed so hard and sank to such depicable depths, was because they were trying desperately to find the nonexistent link between 9-11 and Saddam Hussein - so they could cover their own asses over not finding WMD's, and have something else they could use as an excuse for invading Iraq - THAT makes me want to see Bush and Cheney dragged out of their mansions in shackles and dragged off to prison. Because, while there may only be proof of illegal activities by some smaller fish set up to take the fall - the burden of blame should fall on Bush and Cheney.
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    Apr 25, 2009 7:51 AM GMT
    I think it will be fun to watch. I think some Senators and Congress people that now say they did not know will be confronted by actual records that they were there, right after 9/11, and either agreed or did not object. That they were informed and said nothing OR agreed at the time. Hell, how can this hurt the Rebublicans? Everyone already assumes that they supported torture. So, how could this hurt them? The only ones that can be hurt by this are Demos that sat in high level meetings and heard all this and either did nothing or complied. Feinstein, Boxer, Pelosi?

    I say, bring on the hearings. Air it all out. Let the public see exactly what everyone said and did. Let's see the records. Let's see it all. Who knew, who was there, who said what..

    It should be fun.
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    Apr 25, 2009 8:27 AM GMT
    And Rickrick- before you sink into hyperbole about how bad America is, watch the vid of Daniel Pearlman. his head sawed off while he sceams for his life While each stroke of the saw cuts into bone and muscle and ligament while he is still screaming. While his blood is pouring out of the gaping wound of his neck as he is still screaming. While he struggles to get out of his restraints as he is slowly decapitated.

    I will take waterboarding anytime.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 9:00 AM GMT
    It's clear that many people in the US armed forces and in the legal systems of our country find the gray areas drawn by the Bush Admin to be alarming and un-American. I think that while there probably should be trials, I'm not sure the political will is there for the sort of public prosecutions that it would ask for.

    Triggerman does have a valid point in that there was fairly widespread knowledge that something dirty was being done in the new war on terror.

    All of that aside, I think that torture is wholly outside the ideals and realities faced by the American security services and the Armed Forces. FBI officials have come forward to note that their reviews of CIA techniques has largely declared them to be ineffective and in effect counter-productive. Much of President Bush's so called "Actionable Intelligence" is disputed by the FBI to have been actually gained BEFORE torture was used.

    Finally, it's stupid and childish to try to imagine which form of interrogation one would prefer-especially considering that as of the last administration, American citizens could be fair game. Seeing what our enemies did to Daniel Pearlman is exactly the reason we should not go anywhere near what Dick Cheney called "the dark side". Many patriots are abhorrent of the CIA's actions and the legal arguments that Bush/Cheney created to permit them.
  • irishkcguy

    Posts: 780

    Apr 25, 2009 9:08 AM GMT
    I think the ads that Move On have been airing make a lot of sense. If the individual soldiers who tortured have been tried and sentenced then why shouldn't the people who authorized the torture be held accountable.
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    Apr 25, 2009 9:26 AM GMT
    North_runner-

    Thank you. But if what you say is true, then no one should have any problem releasing ALL the documents that pertain to the "torture" of said detainees.

    If we got NO information, fine. But. let's see if that is true. Let's see if we did or did not get any useful information. Did we or did we not get information about the planned attack on LAX? Let's see. Let's see the whole picture. Let's see it all. Why hide anything? Good or bad? I say let everything that happened with so called "tortured" individuals come out. If they said nothing useful, then you might be absolutely right. It was wrong. If waterboarding a psycho helped save 100,000 people, or 10,000 people, or 1,000 people, I have no problem with that.

    I am all for the complete release of all information regarding anyone that was held by the US. All info. Let the chips fall where they may. If it makes us look bad, so be it. If it saved lives, so be it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 9:44 AM GMT
    Why do you call me a tea-bagger? I do not call you names. But you do not, once again, argue my points, you lump me in with Tea-baggers.

    I just say, let it all come out. Let the minutes of every meeting come out and be made public. If you want some documents to come out, like has happened, let ALL the documents and all the minutes come out. Why am I attacked when I ask for public clarity? Is asking for complete clarity a tea-bag thing? If it is, then yes, I am a tea bagger.

    I just say, releasing selected documents seems suspect to me. Release them all. What is the fear? Release everything regarding this matter. Let the public decide. What scares you about that?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 9:59 AM GMT
    HUH?

    Nice attempt at a straw man attack, JP. Unfortunately, nothing you said comes from anywhere but your mind. Not anything I said. Back up a single thing with anything I have said. I will wait and let you show where I said anything that came from your addled mind.

    It only shows that you can not be independent in your thought. I said nothing about Obama, but you NEEDED me to so that would support your silly notions. You are Obama hook, line and sinker. So much for independant thought.....I expected more from you.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 10:02 AM GMT
    "And let's not kid each other here, Triggerman. You claim to be even-handed, but you make it clear that you have nothing but contempt for liberals, Democrats, and the president."


    HUH? Show me where. Don't make silly statements. Show me where. You made this statement. Back it up, buddy.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 10:10 AM GMT
    JPRICHVA- I know that you have a pretty healthy ego, but disagreeing with you is not the same as saying the Democratic Party and Obama are bad. I am just disagreeing with you. You are not Obama. You are not the Democratic Party, as much as you wish you were. I am just disagreeing with you. Sorry that you hold yourself in such high esteem.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Apr 25, 2009 10:21 AM GMT
    It's disgusting that the republicans in order to stay in lock step with the Bush regime .... even after they have been disgraced
    will stoop as Low as to codify Torture for the first time in American history

    Oh I'm sorry ..... Enhanced Interrogation Techniques

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 10:35 AM GMT
    You are right.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 10:49 AM GMT
    Why don't you two start another thread and let this one be about the potential torture trials.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 10:53 AM GMT
    No.. In the absense of anything truly groundbreaking that you could come up with on you own, that will do.

    Is your goal to attack me or actually make an argumnent that supports your way of thinking?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 11:03 AM GMT
    Nice try JP. Pull things from what I said out of context to support you here.

    Is this is as sad as you have gotten, go for it. So sad. But I am here to defend anything I said anywere. I do not run and hide. I stand and face anyone and I do not run and hide. I do not take anything you said out of context, but if you feel the need to go ahead. I trust people. They will see what I said. Keep rsearching anything I said so that you can quote me innaccurately. I am here. I do not run. I will answer any question.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 11:07 AM GMT
    jprichva saidYou make this way too easy.

    "I am a thinking gay when everyone else is a liberal Democrat."--Triggerman, from another thread.

    Need more examples?


    JP- Why are you so afraid of quoting me completely? Why do you feel the need to pick and choose what I say out of context?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 11:10 AM GMT
    I was angry at John Kerry in 2004 for not mentioning the torture issue. I'm glad Obama is doing something about it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 25, 2009 11:20 AM GMT
    I prefer when you quote me, you do not use the part that suits your purpose. It shows a lack of intellectual integrity on your part. I know you. You are better than that. Use the whole sentence, then attack me if you must. This cut and paste is not you. What happened? I always argued with you but we always had integrity between us. Not this cheap stuff.

    I will never take your statements out of context. Ever. I respect you too much. I may disagree with you, but I will always always treat you with respect and I will never take a statement you make out of context. Ever. Lose an argument? So be it. I do not care.