Catholic Hypocrisy (again!) on Torture

  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Apr 28, 2009 3:54 PM GMT
    John Kerry got lambasted by the Catholic Church when he ran for President in 2004 and supported Pro-Choice as a Catholic. The church threatened to excommunicate him if he did not change his position on the subject as President. However, he eventually lost the race.

    It's a fair and consistent argument that the church is pro-life in all issues such as abortion, euthanasia and capital punishment. But where is their outrage and condemnation on torture? Where are their threats of excommunication against Catholic supporters of torture? I've checked out catholic websites and see most issues on gay marriage and abortion and they're following the DHS report on Right-wing extremism threats.

    How many conservative politicians and pundits, who are Catholic, like Bill O-Reilly and Glenn Beck, who openly support or allude to support torture and yet the church doesn't say a peep or threaten excommunication against them? If you know of a Catholic politician or pundit in favor of torture, please post their name and their quoted support for torture to this thread. I would like to compile a list and write a letter to the Archdiocese and EWTN.

    ----------
    On a related note, I was entering the gate at Fort Bragg today and I found myself behind a pick-up truck with a McCain sticker on his back glass. To the left of the sticker, the owner/driver wrote "Liberty not Tyranny" and on the right he wrote, "Torture: Waiting until 2012." How disrespectful and insensitive to John McCain who endured 8 years as a tortured POW.
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    Apr 28, 2009 4:11 PM GMT
    If you are looking for moral leadership the supreme moral authority on earth is not the place to look. icon_biggrin.gif
  • coolarmydude

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    Apr 28, 2009 4:15 PM GMT
    Perhaps the church is all hush because of what they did for the last few centuries and they know that their denunciations would open up that old can of worms.
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    Apr 28, 2009 4:26 PM GMT
    coolarmydude saidPerhaps the church is all hush because of what they did for the last few centuries and they know that their denunciations would open up that old can of worms.

    True, the Catholic Church raised torture to new levels in centuries past. They are hardly in a position to comment on this issue, and as you say, it would shine a spotlight on their sordid past they can scarce afford.

    The US conservatives you cite, however, can be cheerleaders for torture without fear of criticism from their Republican base, as that bumper sticker you saw proves. What a moral morass the Republicans have brought us to, what a refutation of all the values that once made us great as a nation, and as a people. icon_cry.gif
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    Apr 28, 2009 4:29 PM GMT
    Scalia?
  • coolarmydude

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    Apr 28, 2009 4:31 PM GMT
    Are you guessing? I would like to know of a quotable source in order to use their words against them.

    I know some people will get on here and mention Pelosi, but I don't think that is clear yet. I mentioned conservatives, but if there is a non-conservative Catholic advocating torture, let's add them too.
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    Apr 28, 2009 4:35 PM GMT
    Ratzinger can barely contain his glee when even mentioning the Holocaust. I doubt he's going to say much in dissent of torture.
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    Apr 28, 2009 4:50 PM GMT
    I love the Church, but it leaves some very huge, inexplicable gaps in consistancy sometimes. It was strangely quiet during the holocaust, and left out persecution of homosexuals out of John Paul II's Mea Culpas.

    To his credit, JPII addressed many past faults of the church before he died. But I agree that hypocrisy is rampant, saddening and even disgusting.
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    Apr 28, 2009 4:51 PM GMT
    There is a American Indian belief that if you name the disease you give it power over you.
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    Apr 28, 2009 5:05 PM GMT
    You will also notice that both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have spoken out against the wars in Iraq and around the world. The church really does emphasize peace. By all means, send the letter, I'm certain the immediate response will be heard and issues regarding Catholic politicians and torture will be treated just like abortion. The Catholic Church is against torture and violence.
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    Apr 28, 2009 5:40 PM GMT
    juishe saidYou will also notice that both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have spoken out against the wars in Iraq and around the world. The church really does emphasize peace. By all means, send the letter, I'm certain the immediate response will be heard and issues regarding Catholic politicians and torture will be treated just like abortion. The Catholic Church is against torture and violence.


    While I'm not a Catholic Church fan, I'd have to say he's hitting on something here. An opposition to torture would be consistent on the issue of the wars. I cant imagine they would support it, based on their opposition to the war. Also, the focus on this issue is mainly in two places: The US Liberal agenda (I'm a supporter), and Islamic Fundamentalists. Europe and the Vatican have much bigger issues when it comes to the US agenda. A lack in voice on this may be that one would have to make sense that anti-war means anti-torture. But, that's just conjecture.
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    Apr 28, 2009 6:10 PM GMT
    Well for starters Kerry didn't lose the race because of his pro-choice views. He lost because because at that time, terrorism and the war, were the highest concerns of the people, and the way Kerry, and Edwards were going around, pretty much looking like you're typical naive, lets all hold hands and get everyone to like us, liberal democrat AKA "Candy ass". I knew his ass wasn't going to win. Bush also ran a smart campaign, Obama adopted that style, and just pimped it up if you will haha, and well after learning more about Kerry, and seeing how he behaved, and things he said after the election, I'm glad the virulent little bastard didn't win.

    Over time those things became less important to people because things were turning around in Iraq,People weren't really concerned about another 9/11 happening, and the Republican party started getting stupid. The economy started becoming #1 issue, though both parties are to blame for all that is wrong with the economy, it happened on the watch of the Republicans, most people aren't politically savvy enough, and or are too damn lazy to really dig and learn who was responsible for this that and this, and usually too wrapped up in an ideology, either they're left, or right, and they stick with those. As I always say anyone hung up on either side, and especially if they're on the extreme with it, are morons.

    Because Obama looked like he was better prepared to deal with the economy, and McCain ran a shitty campaign, Obama won, so we have a liberal democrat who is pro-choice in the white house, and most if not all of his administration is as well. Personally, and spiritually I'm against gay marriage, and abortion, though I feel the government, should have no hand in telling anyone who they can and cannot marry. If 2 consenting adults that love each other want to be together and have the same rights as a traditional married couple does, they should be allowed that. There are many reasons why a woman would have an abortion, if she was raped by her father, uncle, or brother, and or her body wasn't strong enough to give birth she should have an abortion, such choices are and should only be between the woman, god, and her family, not the government, or other members outside of the family.

    Bill O'Reilly isn't much of a Conservative, he's more of an Independent/Moderate, Glenn Beck is semi Conservative borderline Libertarian, Sean Hannity is a Conservative, and their stances on torture are all a bit different depending on how torture is defined. What John McCain went through is torture, and torture is wrong as the bible says, when people do that, they're basically looking, and treating the other person as subhuman, not to mention it fucks with your head, and you don't get any real info anyway since someone would say whatever just to stop. The enemy does that because they are driven by evil, and many believe because of what this country is supposed to stand for, we shouldn't do as they do, and I do agree with that. Though I'm all for scaring the fuck out of someone to get something.

    Water boarding isn't torture to me, and I've had that done to me as apart of training, yeah its a little spooky, but it doesn't cause physical harm. Having the lights go on and off, or having a woman give you orders, or a caterpillar crawl around on you not torture (though I'd agree having to listen to Britney Spears is haha) Those things were done. Yes more extreme things that can be categorized as torture were done, I do not agree with them, though still no where near like what they do, not to mention we'd always have medical staff there. The argument is if that guy had info and you needed to be more rough to get it out of him, and it worked, and he gave the info which allowed whatever act that was going to happen to stop, is legitimate, which makes things a bit difficult. This is a new kind of war, the enemy does not wear uniform nor are apart of a single nation, blends with the civilians putting them in harms way, or will use civilians as shields, we have to work hard on adapting and learning how to fight this new war/new threat, its not like WWII though the evil ideologies are the same, the way the battles go, are very different. Technically the enemy does not qualify for the Geneva conventions, though we still treat them good. Saddam's Soldiers did, if we got into war tomorrow with Russia, North Korea, and Iran, they would as well.

    Both parties have had meetings about the whole torture thing, and both parties agreed with the methods, and even asked if it was enough, that is because both parties at the time did NOT want another 9/11 to happen. When the left/far left started protesting against torture, that spooked the democrats, and now the democrats are playing "lost babe in the woods" acting like they don't know what happened, or they weren't for it.

    I agree with you on the whole Catholic thing, though it may offend some, but I've done a lot of studying about the Catholic Church and all, and I'm sorry I just don't like or trust it. They have a dark past, as do other versions of Christianity coming out of European origins. Christianity was not created in Europe, it was born in the Middle East, and when the Europeans got a hold of it, a lot of distortions, and pagan beliefs got thrown in it. The leaders of the church did not follow the true teachings or spirit of Christ, bent the religion around to fit their needs, and serve their vanity, and lust for power. Kept people in fear, and did a whole lot of torturing, killing, and fornication, among other things Christ preached NOT to do.



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    Apr 28, 2009 7:04 PM GMT
    Rad_d81 said I'm glad the virulent little bastard [Kerry] didn't win. (Which means you're glad Bush won reelection)

    Personally, and spiritually I'm against gay marriage...

    Bill O'Reilly isn't much of a Conservative, he's more of an Independent/Moderate, Glenn Beck is semi Conservative borderline Libertarian...

    Water boarding isn't torture to me...

    Astonishing!!!
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    Apr 28, 2009 7:09 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    Rad_d81 said I'm glad the virulent little bastard [Kerry] didn't win. (Which means you're glad Bush won reelection)

    Personally, and spiritually I'm against gay marriage...

    Bill O'Reilly isn't much of a Conservative, he's more of an Independent/Moderate, Glenn Beck is semi Conservative borderline Libertarian...

    Water boarding isn't torture to me...

    Astonishing!!!


    Yes I'm against Gay marriage, doesn't mean I believe gays should be denied it, and all the benefits that go along with it, as I said.

    Glad it was Bush and not him. Doesn't mean I agreed with nor liked everything Bush was about. I just disliked Kerry more

    I've read O'Reilly's, Beck's, and Hannity's book(s) I'm sure you have not, and never will, I like to learn about people who have pretty strong convictions, and are somewhat influential . and no he isn't much of a conservative as what people like you believe (O'Reilly) . Do I agree with everything O'Reilly, Beck, and Hannity, say and all? Nope. I'm just not a crazed hateful liberal closed off to views of others (that would be you)

    No water boarding isn't torture, its scary, but I do not put it in the category of torture, or else I'd have to put all of the training I went through in the Military, my MMA training, and Fire Fighting training in there as well. Water boarding is scary, but I felt no pain going through it, Man up boy haha

    Astonished? I'm Not surprised.
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    Apr 28, 2009 7:33 PM GMT
    if you dont like what the catholic church and the holy father say but you still want to be christian thats fine go off and follow some weirdo break away heretic church- end of story (the main reason protestantism is so big is cause henry VIII was such a randy bastardicon_smile.gif)
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    Apr 28, 2009 7:42 PM GMT
    Rad_d81 saidNo water boarding isn't torture, its scary, but I do not put it in the category of torture, or else I'd have to put all of the training I went through in the Military, my MMA training, and Fire Fighting training in there as well. Water boarding is scary, but I felt no pain going through it, Man up boy haha.
    According to the Geneva Conventions Treaty, and our own US laws, waterboarding is torture. It is not up to you to define what torture is, regardless of your personal experience. WE EXECUTED Japanese who waterboarded our troops in World War II. NOT waterboarding gives the US the moral high ground against our enemies who do; THAT WE TORTURE gives Osama bin Laden ample ammunition to accuse us of violating human rights.

    Man up? Read up. Smarten up. Stop being a part of the problem.
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    Apr 28, 2009 7:44 PM GMT
    musclejock18 saidif you dont like what the catholic church and the holy father say but you still want to be christian thats fine go off and follow some weirdo break away heretic church- end of story (the main reason protestantism is so big is cause henry VIII was such a randy bastardicon_smile.gif)


    Weirdo break away heretic church? I think many of the things the Catholic Church has done throughout history would be more in line with things against god. Many Catholics don't even know much about their own church, mostly because there is a lot of hush hush secret stuff nobody wants to talk about, and that alone is a sign for "stay away" haha.

    All I'm saying is all of the stuff I've learned of the Catholic church, as well as other versions of Christianity coming from European origins, have dark past, because none of em are in line with the true spirit/teachings of Christ.
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    Apr 28, 2009 7:57 PM GMT
    mickeytopogigio said
    Rad_d81 saidNo water boarding isn't torture, its scary, but I do not put it in the category of torture, or else I'd have to put all of the training I went through in the Military, my MMA training, and Fire Fighting training in there as well. Water boarding is scary, but I felt no pain going through it, Man up boy haha.
    According to the Geneva Conventions Treaty, and our own US laws, waterboarding is torture. It is not up to you to define what torture is, regardless of your personal experience. WE EXECUTED Japanese who waterboarded our troops in World War II. NOT waterboarding gives the US the moral high ground against our enemies who do; THAT WE TORTURE gives Osama bin Laden ample ammunition to accuse us of violating human rights.

    Man up? Read up. Smarten up. Stop being a part of the problem.



    Um I think you need to smarten up... I'm well aware of what is in the Geneva Conventions, and if you actually understood the Geneva Conventions you'd know that the people we fight, don't match the description of the enemies in the Geneva Conventions, BUT we still treat them good.

    You also forgot to mention the American soldiers who were punished for water boarding Nazis. The Japanese, the Germans, the Iraqi soldiers, the Iranian soldiers, North Korean soldiers, and Russian soldiers (if and when we go to war with the last 3) all fit everything within the Geneva Conventions 100%. They are all of military status with a base, they wear a uniform, fight under a flag, and are apart of a nation, they weren't/aren't a bunch of religious fanatics from all parts of the world, not in uniform, not under a flag, and trying to blend with the civilians. However when the Geneva Conventions were created, nobody expected to deal with this kind of enemy, and this kind of war, its all very different, and yes more intensive methods should be used to collect information.

    The whole argument of Osama Bin Laden not torturing our troops if we don't torture terrorist, is bullshit, they've tortured and killed our civilians, military, and even their own people, long before this war started, and will continue to do so, because that's just what they do. We do not, nor do I want us to do as they do, because we are better.

    I've already expressed my views on torture saying its wrong.

    I said water boarding isn't torture to ME, again I've been through it, doesn't hurt, little spooky, but doesn't hurt, and its an intensive method in collecting info, but its deemed as torture, among other methods that don't necessarily fall under that category meaning causing physical, and long lasting damage. So as I said in my first post this just all makes things a bit more difficult for us, and easier for them. So if something worse than 9/11 happens, we'll have people bitching about how come nobody stopped it, why didn't anyone do anything, and its basically because are hands are being tied behind our backs more, and more, don't do this, don't do that.


    So you need to smarten up, wise up, and man up. Candy Ass
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    Apr 28, 2009 8:15 PM GMT
    Waterboarding wouldn't have prevented 9/11. Being smart with the information and acting on it might have.

    It isn't relevant whether you personally feel waterboarding is torture, as you admit above. It is against the law.

    And don't call me candy ass. If you can't win a debate on the merits of your argument you've lost the debate.
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    Apr 28, 2009 8:26 PM GMT
    mickeytopogigio saidWaterboarding wouldn't have prevented 9/11. Being smart with the information and acting on it might have.

    It isn't relevant whether you personally feel waterboarding is torture, as you admit above. It is against the law.

    And don't call me candy ass. If you can't win a debate on the merits of your argument you've lost the debate.


    Yes how was the information about the whole 9/11 thing found? who knows. Yes being smart with the information and stopping it would have, might have done it, but everyone had the attitude of "that would never happen" "oh don't be such an alarmist" It happened, and shit's changed now, the world's changed.

    I never said my experiences, and views of water bordering were relevant. Just saying it doesn't cause physical, and long lasting damage that real torture does. Its scary, and looks bad, but it doesn't cause the type of damage mentally, and physically that real torture does. And based on the Geneva Conventions, and the wars we have fought before this, those who were punished for doing such, were rightfully punished. Again this is all very different, and still no one has gotten a hold of how to handle this very new threat, and war the way it should be done.

    I'm not trying to "win" anything, I could care less if people agree with me or not,I'm not posting on these topics to be liked, nor do I want everyone to like, and agree with me, because that means you stand for nothing. My convictions are strong, and I do not doubt them, because of the of the people I've grown up around, who've been there, done that, seen that, and have taught and told me, then what I've experienced when I went out into the world, and especially when I went to war. I give my opinions based on my experiences, which can be experiences of others who've been where I've been, and what I've studied. Don't like it? Don't agree with it? Oh well.

    Approval points from people such as yourself are worth less than nothing to me.. Candy Ass haha.

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    Apr 28, 2009 8:32 PM GMT
    and all im saying is that the Roman Catholic church is the one true and apolostic church (o.k the orthodox church is as well) any other church (there seems to be a new one propping up somewhere in america every day) is not a proper church, the catholic church interprets and teaches what the bible says, the bible says some bad stuff bout gays so they teach bad stuff bout gays end of!
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    Apr 28, 2009 8:35 PM GMT
    Rad_d81 saidI'm not trying to "win" anything, I could care less if people agree with me or not,I'm not posting on these topics to be liked, nor do I want everyone to like, and agree with me, because that means you stand for nothing. My convictions are strong...
    So calling me a Candy Ass is somehow a way to assert yourself as a proud, stand-for-something guy? You just sound angry and out of touch, like my grandfather did. And he was an ornery jackass.
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    Apr 28, 2009 8:43 PM GMT
    mickeytopogigio said
    Rad_d81 saidI'm not trying to "win" anything, I could care less if people agree with me or not,I'm not posting on these topics to be liked, nor do I want everyone to like, and agree with me, because that means you stand for nothing. My convictions are strong...
    So calling me a Candy Ass is somehow a way to assert yourself as a proud, stand-for-something guy? You just sound angry and out of touch, like my grandfather did. And he was an ornery jackass.



    No, me calling you Candy Ass is just me getting a little laugh, busting balls don't be so uptight, lighten up my buddies and I always do that with each other all the time. I don't think I'm better than anyone else out there, and don't like Hubristic pride. Yes wanting everyone to love like and agree with you means you stand for nothing basically, because not everyone should agree, and like everything about you. I don't think you're a bad person, or unintelligent, maybe a bit misguided, but nothing bad.

    I'm not an Angry person, I'm actually extremely happy, and feel blessed, especially after all the horrible stuff I've gotten though. Guys like myself are never out of touch, maybe with the new fashion, or hot new band, but as far as the ways of the world, and life in general no.

    I'm sure your gramps busted your balls a lot, but loved ya haha.

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    Apr 28, 2009 9:03 PM GMT
    musclejock18 saidand all im saying is that the Roman Catholic church is the one true and apolostic church (o.k the orthodox church is as well) any other church (there seems to be a new one propping up somewhere in america every day) is not a proper church, the catholic church interprets and teaches what the bible says, the bible says some bad stuff bout gays so they teach bad stuff bout gays end of!


    Like I said, if its coming out of Europe, its filled with distortions, and pagan beliefs, which is why European style Christianity is filled with hypocrisies, contradictions, and a dark passed. I just didn't like, and didn't feel they practiced the true spirit of Christ, so I don't follow it. I'm not saying people who are Catholic are bad and gonna go to hell, Its not my place to judge anyone like that, I'm just saying the past is a bit shady, and too secretive, and god is not about that.

    As far as the whole gay thing goes, the bible isn't against two men having a strong love, and bond for each other, David and Johnathan had that love, not saying they were boinking each other in the corn holes but they clearly did love each other. If god was against all of this, he would have destroyed em both, and wouldn't have blessed David enough to allow him to become a king. Men trying to treat other men as females, is a different story though, and pretty abnormal.

    David even says the love he had for Johnathan, was strong than the love he could have for any woman, this is when he finds out Johnathan was killed in battle. That type of love between men was common, and nothing taboo as it is today, where people will assume you're gay. and the people who do understand it, and all, to be funny about it, call it a "Bromance", or the two guys "Bromosexuals". Nothing is wrong with being gay. God doesn't hate anyone who has love in their hearts for him, and only god knows if a man does or does not, not some old man up in an old ass building with a weird little hat on, or some dude who claims to be of god, but boinks little boys in the booty behind the pew.

    Some people are just born gay, and they suffer through that, forgetting that the world as it is, and how we work is all imperfect, because the world isn't under god's rule at the moment. God understands us, and those who have love for him, and try to live the best they can, gay or straight, are all good.

    You could be straight running around screwing every chick that makes ya dick hard, and you could be gay running around screwing every dude that makes ya dick hard, and both are still equally sinning haha.
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    Apr 28, 2009 9:12 PM GMT
    I've said it before. I'll say it again: No proof of intelligent life on other planets, but their ARE Catholics.icon_wink.gif