From CNN: Religious people more likely to support torture

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 1:51 AM GMT
    "The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey."

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html

    Note that the article does distinguish between different religious groups... it doesn't paint everyone with the same brush.

    This isn't particularly a gay topic, but I thought it was very interesting.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 2:04 AM GMT
    Well the church is responsible for most of the torture devices in history so this does make sense.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 2:39 AM GMT
    This is nothing new.

    False belief systems work like so:
    Subscribe and support the doctrine and you get things. Disagree and you get shunned, or worse (tortured, beheaded, drawn and quartered, the rack, etc.)

    Torture has long been a device utilized by false belief systems to enforce compliance.

    In highly parochial governments, torture and execution is standard issue. Take a close look at those governments.

    Clearly, false belief systems are the single largest destructive influence to human kind.
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    May 01, 2009 2:43 AM GMT
    "White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it."
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    May 01, 2009 2:49 AM GMT
    I think it is a gay issue by default. It's an example of the flawed mindframe of fundamentalists (not really fundamental but somehow classified as such). Jesus asked us to judge not and to turn the other cheek, yet so many Christians fail to even comprehend the ideas. It's sad.
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    May 01, 2009 3:12 AM GMT
    chuckystud saidThis is nothing new.

    False belief systems work like so:
    Subscribe and support the doctrine and you get things. Disagree and you get shunned, or worse (tortured, beheaded, drawn and quartered, the rack, etc.)

    Torture has long been a device utilized by false belief systems to enforce compliance.

    In highly parochial governments, torture and execution is standard issue. Take a close look at those governments.

    Clearly, false belief systems are the single largest destructive influence to human kind.


    Everything you just said it so loaded its scary icon_eek.gif


    I think viewing this from beyond religious views you'll find torture is condoned by the more conservative types. These people are also probably more heavily religious. I doubt losing religion would really decrease support for torture. Most people don't even view it as righteous punishment. Torture is more of a requirement to keep the country safe.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 3:33 AM GMT
    I don't agree with that.

    http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/topic/153702-enhanced-interrogation.html

    Hang out on enough forums and you'll meet torture supporters. Autoforums are a great source in specific news topic sections. Few if any at seek any revenge for it. Revenge comes from bombing bad guys. Torture is to protect. At least thats what people will contest.
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    May 01, 2009 3:39 AM GMT
    I made a resolution not to put words in peoples mouth.

    We can't know what the general "religious right" thinks. I would still call religion just part of the package that goes along with being a conservative. Semi-support of torture is part of the package too.

    What ever they have to do to keep this country safe. Would I want to be tortued,hell noooo but they would do the same. I am sure alot worse to us to get info to keep them safe.

    - The attitude of torture support.
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    May 01, 2009 3:40 AM GMT
    What do you expect of religious people:

    Joshua 6:
    20 So the people shouted, and [the priests] blew with the horns. And it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the horn, that the people shouted with a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

    21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old... ... icon_eek.gif


    And ya gotta love Moses for this one....

    Moses sends the Isrealites out to slaughter all the Midianites...

    Number 31:
    9. And the children of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods, they took for a prey. (Oops...the Isrealites didnt kill them all...they spared the women and children and brought them back)
    ...
    14 And Moses was wroth (i.e., angry) with the officers of the host, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who came from the service of the war.
    15 And Moses said unto them: 'Have ye saved all the women alive? (Moses was pissed that they didnt kill the women and children, too!)
    ...
    17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. (So MOSES tells them to kill the women and the little boys)
    18 But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Unless they are virgin girls....those the Isrealites get to keep for themselves) ... icon_eek.gif


    So what's a little torture when you got Bible stories like that! ... icon_confused.gif


    But I am still trying to figure out the plagues... icon_confused.gif

    In the fifth plague, God kills all the Egyptian cattle with a pestilence.


    Exodus 9:
    3 behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which are in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the herds, and upon the flocks; there shall be a very grievous murrain. [= any of various highly infectious diseases of cattle, as anthrax.]

    But in the seventh plague, God kills all the Egyptian cattle with hail.

    18 Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the day it was founded even until now.
    19 Now therefore send, hasten in thy cattle and all that thou hast in the field; for every man and beast that shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.'

    Didnt God just kill all the cattle a few verses before??? ... icon_lol.gif... icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 4:03 AM GMT
    Accept paypal?

    You caught my on the last post. Ug. Tough to counter generalizations without doing the same icon_confused.gif
  • BeingThePhoen...

    Posts: 1157

    May 01, 2009 4:58 AM GMT
    Trance24 saidI made a resolution not to put words in peoples mouth.

    We can't know what the general "religious right" thinks. I would still call religion just part of the package that goes along with being a conservative. Semi-support of torture is part of the package too.

    What ever they have to do to keep this country safe. Would I want to be tortued,hell noooo but they would do the same. I am sure alot worse to us to get info to keep them safe.

    - The attitude of torture support.

    Should we not hold our country to a higher standard? Are we so incapable as a country, that we have to resort to barbarism at every turn?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 10:20 AM GMT
    The title alone says it all. Are we really surprised? Fits right in with the RWcN party's philosophy. (RWcN = Right Wing christian Nazi)

    Yet we will see the bloody phony blaggards going to their little houses of prayer every Sunday.

    ALL of the predjudices the WE suffer daily have evolved from religion and is sustained by the mindless dolts that follow it. These people would condone torturing Gays if it were legal!!!

    Keith
    icon_evil.gif
  • junknemesis

    Posts: 682

    May 01, 2009 10:45 AM GMT
    Just because you don't support a belief system doesn't give you the knowledge or right to keep saying it's false. If you don't believe in it that's fine, if you don't support it you have that right. But you don't know enough ultimatly to be able to say it's false. The little I do know about christianity (any sect) is enough to let me be able to say I feel it's true. However with no knowledge at all, someone else has no evidence to go on to say it's false. I keep hearing religion on here refered to as a "False Belief System" but none who say that ever give any evidence to support that rather offensive claim. It's just an unwarrented slam. Oh an you want to cite the mistakes of churches in the past, with persecutions and support of torture? (The Dark Ages and Crusades I'm betting) Guess what? People make mistakes. There are bad examples in every denomination, but that has NO bearing on the truth or falsehood of the Gospel of Christ (Or any churches root Gospel) itself. On TOP of that, when all those things in the Dark Ages were happening there was absolutly no divine revelation on the earth. There were some instances of Inspiration, but that is a lot different from Revelation.

    Sure there are things going on now that are pretty Dark also. Some of it involves churches. Big deal, some of it also involves Gay people too. I heard someone call out and denounce all Religions because of the occurance of ministers molesting children. This person went on to say that all churches should loose their status and right to preach.

    Well there are Gay child molesters, and gay murderers, and gay crackheads selling their drugs and ruining lives. Does that mean all gay people should be arrested, loose rights, etc? Duh... no.

    There are bad examples in every single group nomatter where you look. That doesnt mean the group/organization/ etc... itself is bad or wrong.

    If you want to be respected you need to have respect. It's something very arrogant to assume you just deserve total and complete respect. Everyone deserves a little, as a fellow human being. But more then that basic cursory respect should be earned. Love begets love, and it has to start somewhere. If you just wait for it to come from the other guy, then your being selfish and arrogant.

    Paraphrase: "If you are wronged and do not forgive, yours is the greater sin."
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    May 01, 2009 11:18 AM GMT
    I wouldn't expect any other result
    When your fed stories of men beating their wives
    of infanticide and murder and genocide
    all done in the name of some old man who supposedly lives up in the sky
    and has omnipotence over everything that you do
    is it any surprise that more evil has been done in the name of this old man than anything else in human history?
  • junknemesis

    Posts: 682

    May 01, 2009 11:33 AM GMT
    What is worse, to do those horrible things in the name of "The Old Man in the Sky" or to do them out of the sheer pleasure of torturing and harming a fellow human being? I think the latter is far more sick and happens more often now the you think.

    People don't feel they need divine command to commit such actions. They just want to cause it... cause...

    I can't fathom WHY people do it. I don't understand. And when there is no reason other then chaos, then they will be less correctable then those who do it deluded in the name of God.

    Each is a madness... but it's in the person commiting the actions, not in God. Besides, when people do stuff like that in the name of God, it's because the PEOPLE have corrupted His word. Yeah I know it's still going on nowadays, and it's just as wrong as The Crusades or Inquisition. But it's in the name of God, not by his command or even support.

    Think about it, would you tell one of your children to kill the other, just cause you were mad? That would be criminal madness. Well in that same metaphore Heavenly Father wouldn't, and doesn't.

    But we (humans) kill eachother in his name because we have free will.

    CRAP! I have to make breakfast for my guests! Ending this... sorry no good conclusion!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 12:22 PM GMT
    junk, you are mistaken if you think it isn't possible to know a religion simply because you don't believe in it. i am a southerner. i know christianity. i do not support it. i do not like it. i do not believe in it. but yes, i do know it.

    and yes, i feel comfortable generalizing with a broad paintbrush about southern conservatives (who are generally also regular church attendees): they are hateful people, full of malice and revenge. their beliefs teach them fear, and they lash out at their fears with various forms of violence and institutionalized hatred.

    i sometimes think that we liberals forget that real, raw, uncensored hatred still exists/persists. charlotte, nc, the second largest banking center in the whole nation, had the highest rate of gay bashing/1,000 people in the country in 2008. just because we live in a modern world doesn't mean old prejudices are wiped away by cable tv, youtube, and metrosexuality.
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    May 01, 2009 12:29 PM GMT
    dancerjack saidjunk, you are mistaken if you think it isn't possible to know a religion simply because you don't believe in it. i am a southerner. i know christianity. i do not support it. i do not like it. i do not believe in it. but yes, i do know it.

    and yes, i feel comfortable generalizing with a broad paintbrush about southern conservatives (who are generally also regular church attendees): they are hateful people, full of malice and revenge. their beliefs teach them fear, and they lash out at their fears with various forms of violence and institutionalized hatred.

    i sometimes think that we liberals forget that real, raw, uncensored hatred still exists/persists. charlotte, nc, the second largest banking center in the whole nation, had the highest rate of gay bashing/1,000 people in the country in 2008. just because we live in a modern world doesn't mean old prejudices are wiped away by cable tv, youtube, and metrosexuality.


    Will you marry me?
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    May 01, 2009 12:36 PM GMT
    This article could have been written a dozen different ways.

    Republicans are ok with it.
    Southerners are ok with it.
    Anti-Abortion people are ok with it.
    Men are ok with it.

    This is the sloshing around of statistical data into a sexy headline that all stats get picked on for. It is pretty lazy journalism.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 12:40 PM GMT
    wow...did this person just write this article with no evidence...well i think they did! great work...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 01, 2009 1:27 PM GMT
    I agree with the guys who are saying this is slanted and that lots of people condone torture. Some people even like it.

    501738098_c949325af7.jpg?v=0
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    May 02, 2009 3:04 AM GMT
    AF24 saidwow...did this person just write this article with no evidence...well i think they did! great work...
    Actually, you criticized the author with no evidence. Great job yourself, and here's the link in case you think research is something worth partaking in:

    http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1210/torture-opinion-religious-differences
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    May 02, 2009 9:10 PM GMT
    They are called "religious nuts" for a reason...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 02, 2009 9:42 PM GMT
    dancerjack saidjunk, you are mistaken if you think it isn't possible to know a religion simply because you don't believe in it. i am a southerner. i know christianity. i do not support it. i do not like it. i do not believe in it. but yes, i do know it.

    and yes, i feel comfortable generalizing with a broad paintbrush about southern conservatives (who are generally also regular church attendees): they are hateful people, full of malice and revenge. their beliefs teach them fear, and they lash out at their fears with various forms of violence and institutionalized hatred.

    i sometimes think that we liberals forget that real, raw, uncensored hatred still exists/persists. charlotte, nc, the second largest banking center in the whole nation, had the highest rate of gay bashing/1,000 people in the country in 2008. just because we live in a modern world doesn't mean old prejudices are wiped away by cable tv, youtube, and metrosexuality.


    Ditto.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 02, 2009 9:44 PM GMT



    Someone should try this survey in the middle east countries with non christian faiths.

    The difference in support of torture was 54% of regular church goers and 42% supporting torture among those who seldom or never go.

    The difference is 12 %.

    Until someone does a survey asking atheists whether they support torture or not and we get a percentage, we don't think anyone can say atheists don't support torture, which is what is being insinuated here. How about a survey of pagans?

    Let's try the Satanists too. That should be interesting eh?

    We know several atheists that do believe in torture and the death penalty.
    We know some pagans that do too.
    .


    Religious extremists are religious extremists.
    This is starting to sound like anyone christian supports torture.

    Of course, we all know that totally secular communist China would never torture anyone. Same with the communist USSR. icon_lol.gif


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 02, 2009 9:50 PM GMT
    I go to church regularly, but I do NOT believe that any form of torture is justified.
    Jesus Christ never taught it. Any form of torture, whether it is on religious grounds such as practiced by the Roman Catholic Church during the Middle Ages, or nationally such as the torture imposed to the Allies by the Japanese during the War, all suffering is inhumane, cruel, wicked and evil.
    The Roman Catholic Church, despite admitting that she was cruel in the past, actually still defends torture, and has a department in the Vatican, "The Office of the Defendant of the Faith". It has replaced the "Department of the Inquisition". In other words, it's the same office, only it was given a new lick of paint. More recently, the Roman Catholic Church gave approval to the Holocaust, as did, sadly, some Lutherian churches.
    But the New Testament had never, not even once, gave authority to torture heretics, terrorists,or anyone who didn't agree with them.
    Interesting,that linked article does suggest that the Roman Catholic Church along with Protestants (such as Lutherians) show greater favour to this evil than the Evangelicals.